1:16 p.m.
Hi,
I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage of
databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
Steinicke NGC database [2].
For example Kstars uses the SAC catalog as source for its NGC database.
From the SOURCES.readme file in kstars sources [3]:
SAC Catalog
===========
Part of our NGC/IC data is obtained from the Saguaro Astronomy Club
catalog, compiled by Steve Coe.
While the website seemed to indicate that the catalog is only
available for non-commercial use (and hence incompatible with KStars),
Akarsh Simha received a correspondence with Steve Coe, who is the
Copyright holder of the catalog.
Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
----------
From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
Date: 18th Dec 2008
Snippet:
Akarsh;
I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
The opinion
on the Legal mailing list [4] is such sources are not
compatible with Fedora/RHEL:
From Tom Callaway reply:
Any license with a commercial use restriction is non-free. Material
under such a license must not be distributed in Fedora, either in source
or binary RPM.
I think Skychart also uses SAC catalog for building its NGC database. If
such sources are incompatible what choices we have to fix that? I don't
find any other reliable and updated sources for NGC objects data and
even if there is one I don't think all the developers will change their
code only because Fedora doesn't like it. In Kstars case they also had
the permission from SAC to use their data.
So are the only choices to remove NGC catalogs from packages (with a
major loss in usability) or to retire packages from Fedora/EPEL?
Mattia
[1] http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm
[2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
[3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
[4]
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/legal@lists.fedoraproject.o...
1:53 p.m.
Hi Mattia,
at least for KStars that should be not a big deal as the catalog is also
available through KStars content downloader already used for additional
catalogs like Tycho. I think we should query upstream projects on
details. Also, if Fedora is affected at least Debian (and thus Ubuntu)
and openSUSE are affected too, so we have the majority of Linux users. I
will discuss with KStars developers as the upstream tarballs are also
nonfree then.
For me retiring all related packages is really not an option, we would
loose one of the main features of the Astronomy Spin. For Skychart: Is
the affected package the main package or an additional data package?
There are also free resources:
http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/Cat?VII/1B created by NASA => should
be in the public domain. But the one from W. Steinicke seems to be the
best one...
Greetings,
Christian
On 03/23/2016 07:16 PM, Mattia Verga wrote:
Hi,
I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage of
databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
Steinicke NGC database [2].
For example Kstars uses the SAC catalog as source for its NGC
database. From the SOURCES.readme file in kstars sources [3]:
> SAC Catalog
> ===========
>
> Part of our NGC/IC data is obtained from the Saguaro Astronomy Club
> catalog, compiled by Steve Coe.
>
> While the website seemed to indicate that the catalog is only
> available for non-commercial use (and hence incompatible with KStars),
> Akarsh Simha received a correspondence with Steve Coe, who is the
> Copyright holder of the catalog.
>
> Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
>
> ----------
>
> From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
> To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
> Date: 18th Dec 2008
>
> Snippet:
>
>
> Akarsh;
>
> I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
> It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
The opinion on the Legal mailing list [4] is such sources are not
compatible with Fedora/RHEL:
From Tom Callaway reply:
> Any license with a commercial use restriction is non-free. Material
> under such a license must not be distributed in Fedora, either in source
> or binary RPM.
I think Skychart also uses SAC catalog for building its NGC database.
If such sources are incompatible what choices we have to fix that? I
don't find any other reliable and updated sources for NGC objects data
and even if there is one I don't think all the developers will change
their code only because Fedora doesn't like it. In Kstars case they
also had the permission from SAC to use their data.
So are the only choices to remove NGC catalogs from packages (with a
major loss in usability) or to retire packages from Fedora/EPEL?
Mattia
[1] http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm
[2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
[3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
[4]
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/legal@lists.fedoraproject.o...
_______________________________________________
Fedora astronomy mailing list
astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
2:05 p.m.
OK, looks like Debian doesn't ship Skychart.
On 03/23/2016 07:53 PM, Christian Dersch wrote:
Hi Mattia,
at least for KStars that should be not a big deal as the catalog is also
available through KStars content downloader already used for additional
catalogs like Tycho. I think we should query upstream projects on
details. Also, if Fedora is affected at least Debian (and thus Ubuntu)
and openSUSE are affected too, so we have the majority of Linux users. I
will discuss with KStars developers as the upstream tarballs are also
nonfree then.
For me retiring all related packages is really not an option, we would
loose one of the main features of the Astronomy Spin. For Skychart: Is
the affected package the main package or an additional data package?
There are also free resources:
http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/Cat?VII/1B created by NASA => should
be in the public domain. But the one from W. Steinicke seems to be the
best one...
Greetings,
Christian
On 03/23/2016 07:16 PM, Mattia Verga wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage of
> databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
> Steinicke NGC database [2].
> For example Kstars uses the SAC catalog as source for its NGC
> database. From the SOURCES.readme file in kstars sources [3]:
>> SAC Catalog
>> ===========
>>
>> Part of our NGC/IC data is obtained from the Saguaro Astronomy Club
>> catalog, compiled by Steve Coe.
>>
>> While the website seemed to indicate that the catalog is only
>> available for non-commercial use (and hence incompatible with KStars),
>> Akarsh Simha received a correspondence with Steve Coe, who is the
>> Copyright holder of the catalog.
>>
>> Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
>> To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
>> Date: 18th Dec 2008
>>
>> Snippet:
>>
>>
>> Akarsh;
>>
>> I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
>> It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
> The opinion on the Legal mailing list [4] is such sources are not
> compatible with Fedora/RHEL:
> From Tom Callaway reply:
>> Any license with a commercial use restriction is non-free. Material
>> under such a license must not be distributed in Fedora, either in source
>> or binary RPM.
> I think Skychart also uses SAC catalog for building its NGC database.
> If such sources are incompatible what choices we have to fix that? I
> don't find any other reliable and updated sources for NGC objects data
> and even if there is one I don't think all the developers will change
> their code only because Fedora doesn't like it. In Kstars case they
> also had the permission from SAC to use their data.
> So are the only choices to remove NGC catalogs from packages (with a
> major loss in usability) or to retire packages from Fedora/EPEL?
>
> Mattia
>
>
> [1] http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm
> [2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
> [3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
> [4]
>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/legal@lists.fedoraproject.o...
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora astronomy mailing list
> astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
_______________________________________________
Fedora astronomy mailing list
astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
2:15 p.m.
I need more details on response from legal, I read the README.sources too:
**********************************************************************
Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
----------
From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
Date: 18th Dec 2008
Snippet:
Akarsh;
I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
-----------
From: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
To: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
Date: 5th May 2009
Snippet:
To start with, I have tried merging NGC and IC data from SAC into our
database, and I've attached a copy of the stuff I intend to ship with
KStars. I wiill release this in the next version of KStars if I have
the permission to redistribute it under GPL. I would like to expand
the dataset to include most of the data in the SAC database in the
near future.
-----------
From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
Date: 5th May 2009
Akarsh;
Seeing as how the SAC data is available in both Sky Map Pro and Guide,
which are "for sale" planetarium programs, I can see no problem with
allowing you to include it in KStars. I hope your project goes well.
****************************************************************
Also, in the catalog file ngcic.dat:
# NGC/IC catalog (c) 2003-2009 by
# Jason Harris <kstars(a)30doradus.org>, Akarsh Simha
<akarsh.simha(a)kdemail.net>, Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
#
# This catalog was constructed from:
# 1. Saguaro Astronomy Club Deep Sky Database version 8.0 [Data used
with permission] <http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm>
# 2. Jason Harris' NGC/IC catalog licensed under GPL, constructed from
public domain sources (See earlier revisions of this file)
# 3. Refering to Wikipedia and SIMBAD for a few individual objects
#
# This catalog has made some use of the SIMBAD database, operated at
CDS, Strasbourg, France:
# http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad
#
# This catalog is released under the GNU General Public License:
# http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
So *IMHO* KStars got permission to ship the stuff under GPL.
Greetings,
Christian
On 03/23/2016 08:05 PM, Christian Dersch wrote:
OK, looks like Debian doesn't ship Skychart.
On 03/23/2016 07:53 PM, Christian Dersch wrote:
> Hi Mattia,
>
> at least for KStars that should be not a big deal as the catalog is also
> available through KStars content downloader already used for additional
> catalogs like Tycho. I think we should query upstream projects on
> details. Also, if Fedora is affected at least Debian (and thus Ubuntu)
> and openSUSE are affected too, so we have the majority of Linux users. I
> will discuss with KStars developers as the upstream tarballs are also
> nonfree then.
>
> For me retiring all related packages is really not an option, we would
> loose one of the main features of the Astronomy Spin. For Skychart: Is
> the affected package the main package or an additional data package?
>
> There are also free resources:
> http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/Cat?VII/1B created by NASA => should
> be in the public domain. But the one from W. Steinicke seems to be the
> best one...
>
> Greetings,
> Christian
>
> On 03/23/2016 07:16 PM, Mattia Verga wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage of
>> databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
>> Steinicke NGC database [2].
>> For example Kstars uses the SAC catalog as source for its NGC
>> database. From the SOURCES.readme file in kstars sources [3]:
>>> SAC Catalog
>>> ===========
>>>
>>> Part of our NGC/IC data is obtained from the Saguaro Astronomy Club
>>> catalog, compiled by Steve Coe.
>>>
>>> While the website seemed to indicate that the catalog is only
>>> available for non-commercial use (and hence incompatible with KStars),
>>> Akarsh Simha received a correspondence with Steve Coe, who is the
>>> Copyright holder of the catalog.
>>>
>>> Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
>>> To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
>>> Date: 18th Dec 2008
>>>
>>> Snippet:
>>>
>>>
>>> Akarsh;
>>>
>>> I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
>>> It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
>> The opinion on the Legal mailing list [4] is such sources are not
>> compatible with Fedora/RHEL:
>> From Tom Callaway reply:
>>> Any license with a commercial use restriction is non-free. Material
>>> under such a license must not be distributed in Fedora, either in source
>>> or binary RPM.
>> I think Skychart also uses SAC catalog for building its NGC database.
>> If such sources are incompatible what choices we have to fix that? I
>> don't find any other reliable and updated sources for NGC objects data
>> and even if there is one I don't think all the developers will change
>> their code only because Fedora doesn't like it. In Kstars case they
>> also had the permission from SAC to use their data.
>> So are the only choices to remove NGC catalogs from packages (with a
>> major loss in usability) or to retire packages from Fedora/EPEL?
>>
>> Mattia
>>
>>
>> [1] http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm
>> [2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
>> [3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
>> [4]
>>
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/legal@lists.fedoraproject.o...
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fedora astronomy mailing list
>> astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora astronomy mailing list
> astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
_______________________________________________
Fedora astronomy mailing list
astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
3:54 p.m.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:15:23 +0100, you wrote:
I need more details on response from legal, I read the README.sources
too:
**********************************************************************
Here are the relevant sections of the email exchange:
----------
From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
Date: 18th Dec 2008
Snippet:
Akarsh;
I have no problem with you using the SAC data for the Kstars program.
It was released with the rules that it is not sold as a seperate item.
-----------
From: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
To: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
Date: 5th May 2009
Snippet:
To start with, I have tried merging NGC and IC data from SAC into our
database, and I've attached a copy of the stuff I intend to ship with
KStars. I wiill release this in the next version of KStars if I have
the permission to redistribute it under GPL. I would like to expand
the dataset to include most of the data in the SAC database in the
near future.
-----------
From: Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
To: Akarsh Simha <akarshsimha(a)gmail.com>
Date: 5th May 2009
Akarsh;
Seeing as how the SAC data is available in both Sky Map Pro and Guide,
which are "for sale" planetarium programs, I can see no problem with
allowing you to include it in KStars. I hope your project goes well.
****************************************************************
Also, in the catalog file ngcic.dat:
# NGC/IC catalog (c) 2003-2009 by
# Jason Harris <kstars(a)30doradus.org>, Akarsh Simha
<akarsh.simha(a)kdemail.net>, Steve Coe <stevecoe(a)cloudynights.com>
#
# This catalog was constructed from:
# 1. Saguaro Astronomy Club Deep Sky Database version 8.0 [Data used
with permission] <http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/downloads.htm>
# 2. Jason Harris' NGC/IC catalog licensed under GPL, constructed from
public domain sources (See earlier revisions of this file)
# 3. Refering to Wikipedia and SIMBAD for a few individual objects
#
# This catalog has made some use of the SIMBAD database, operated at
CDS, Strasbourg, France:
# http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad
#
# This catalog is released under the GNU General Public License:
# http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
So *IMHO* KStars got permission to ship the stuff under GPL.
That's not how I would read it.
To me, I would want a much more explicit statement (along the lines of
"yes, you can relicense it to GPL") rather than the rather fuzzy
allowing it to be include in KStars.
There is also the problem that it is not clear if the intent was to
allow the specific version of the catalog available back in 2009, or
to also include any future versions.
If, as the emails seem to indicate, he has given up having any
restrictions on the use of the data, then it shouldn't be a problem
getting that stated in the next release of SAG Database. But as it
currently stands the latest versions says "This data is released for
private use of anyone who wishes to use this database", and
unfortunately at least from a lawyer perspective I doubt (though it
would be nice to be wrong) those emails are clear and specific enough
to override that licence.
2:33 p.m.
Mattia Verga <mattia.verga(a)tiscali.it> writes:
I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage
of
databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
Steinicke NGC database [2].
[2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
[3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
I have a quite similar problem with the ngc2000 catalog that is used in
astrometry.net (being its Debian maintainer). In the moment, this
catalog had to be removed from our distribution due to a non-commercial
restriction, and the Fedora package of astrometry.net will also need to
have it removed.
I discussed this for more than 6 months with the copyright holder (F&W
Media, the editors of Sky and Telescope), and they finally definitely
refused to change the license.
So, having the Steinicke catalog free would be great not only for
kstars, but also for other packages like astrometry.net. Maybe we could
try jointly to discuss this issue with Wolfgang Steinicke to convince
him to give *his* version under a license that is acceptable by Fedora
and Debian?
Best regards
Ole
4:55 a.m.
Il 23/03/2016 20:33, Ole Streicher ha scritto:
Mattia Verga <mattia.verga(a)tiscali.it> writes:
> I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage of
> databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
> Steinicke NGC database [2].
> [2] http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
> [3] https://github.com/KDE/kstars/tree/master/kstars/data
I have a quite similar problem with the ngc2000 catalog that is used in
astrometry.net (being its Debian maintainer). In the moment, this
catalog had to be removed from our distribution due to a non-commercial
restriction, and the Fedora package of astrometry.net will also need to
have it removed.
I discussed this for more than 6 months with the copyright holder (F&W
Media, the editors of Sky and Telescope), and they finally definitely
refused to change the license.
So, having the Steinicke catalog free would be great not only for
kstars, but also for other packages like astrometry.net. Maybe we could
try jointly to discuss this issue with Wolfgang Steinicke to convince
him to give *his* version under a license that is acceptable by Fedora
and Debian?
I think S&T catalog derive from Wolfgang Steinicke's database, so it
would be better discussing directly with dr. Wolfgang Steinicke about that.
9:17 a.m.
On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:55:36 +0100, you wrote:
> So, having the Steinicke catalog free would be great not only
for
> kstars, but also for other packages like astrometry.net. Maybe we could
> try jointly to discuss this issue with Wolfgang Steinicke to convince
> him to give *his* version under a license that is acceptable by Fedora
> and Debian?
>
I think S&T catalog derive from Wolfgang Steinicke's database, so it
would be better discussing directly with dr. Wolfgang Steinicke about that.
Another possibility would be to create a new catalog. Admittedly a
lot of work, but perhaps something the Galaxy Zoo project would be
willing to take on given the benefits to the astronomical community to
have a quality catalog not hampered by license issues.
12:27 p.m.
Il 26/03/2016 15:17, Gerald Henriksen ha scritto:
Another possibility would be to create a new catalog. Admittedly a
lot of work, but perhaps something the Galaxy Zoo project would be
willing to take on given the benefits to the astronomical community to
have a quality catalog not hampered by license issues.
I've started to build a new database, currently I'm slowly filling it
with data from NASA/IPAC Extragalactic Database and HyperLeda (for
galaxies).
I've completed the first 1.500 objects (but only the galaxies, other
object types will be populated later). I'm interested in your
opinions/suggestions.
You can find my database at https://github.com/mattiaverga/OpenNGC
8:20 a.m.
Hi Mattia,
very nice, thanks for the effort! Maybe I can help you when I finished my
thesis in ~2 weeks?
Greetings,
Christian
Mattia Verga <mattia.verga(a)tiscali.it> hat am 5. April 2016 um
19:27
geschrieben:
Il 26/03/2016 15:17, Gerald Henriksen ha scritto:
>
> Another possibility would be to create a new catalog. Admittedly a
> lot of work, but perhaps something the Galaxy Zoo project would be
> willing to take on given the benefits to the astronomical community to
> have a quality catalog not hampered by license issues.
>
I've started to build a new database, currently I'm slowly filling it
with data from NASA/IPAC Extragalactic Database and HyperLeda (for
galaxies).
I've completed the first 1.500 objects (but only the galaxies, other
object types will be populated later). I'm interested in your
opinions/suggestions.
You can find my database at https://github.com/mattiaverga/OpenNGC
_______________________________________________
Fedora astronomy mailing list
astronomy(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/astronomy
4:10 p.m.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 19:16:06 +0100, you wrote:
I'm having a discussion on the Legal mailing list about the usage
of
databases like the Saguaro Astronomy Club catalog [2] or Dr. Wolfgang
Steinicke NGC database [2].
For example Kstars uses the SAC catalog as source for its NGC database.
From the SOURCES.readme file in kstars sources [3]:
> SAC Catalog
> ===========
>
> Part of our NGC/IC data is obtained from the Saguaro Astronomy Club
> catalog, compiled by Steve Coe.
>
> While the website seemed to indicate that the catalog is only
> available for non-commercial use (and hence incompatible with KStars),
> Akarsh Simha received a correspondence with Steve Coe, who is the
> Copyright holder of the catalog.
Actually, it appears he may not be.
This page on the NGC/IC website:
http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/rev2000/Explan.htm
says:
"The data of my Revised New General Catalogue and Index Catalogue are
used by Mathematica, TheSky, Guide, SkyMapPro, Starry Night,
Eye&Telescope, the SAC database and the database of the Losmandy
mounting"
If as this claims SAC contains data from NGC/IC then SAC would be
required to follow the license terms of NGC/IC, and the person running
SAC cannot relicense that data without the permission of NGC/IC.
From this page:
http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/ngcic_e.htm
we get:
"Any non-commercial use of my data is free! If a commercial use is
planned, please contact me!"
This would appear to make it impossible to include NGC/IC in Fedora,
and that would also apply to any derivative works like SAC.
[Note that Sky & Telescope also appears to use this data, which may be
an indication as to why they are unable to relicense their product]
2939
days inactive
2954
days old
astronomy@lists.fedoraproject.org
10 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Christian Dersch -
Gerald Henriksen -
Mattia Verga -
Ole Streicher