3:25 p.m.
Cloud SIG folks:
We love the Fedora FUDCon model. Just as JBoss did with JUDCon, I'd
like to start a new users and developers-focused conference around
cloud efforts that relate to Fedora and, by effect, Red Hat's cloud
and virtualization efforts.
Not-so-tentatively called CUDCon, "Ruminate with us about clouds!",
the Cloud Users and Developers Conference (beginning) idea is:
* Go alongside an existing FUDCon.
** Existing base of users and developers who are naturally interested
in the technical focus of CUDCon.
** Attract wider range and more sponsorship.
** Cross-seed people and talks so cloud-related talks at FUDCon are
also part of CUDCon.
** Grow attendance at FUDCon by bringing in cloud-focused people who
might not otherwise attend.
* Bring in open community cloud efforts of all backgrounds that are
built on an open source stack that include Fedora or its
remixes/downstreams such as RHEL, CentOS, etc.
** Nice-sized ecosystem without saying, "Everyone and everything."
** Sponsors should (MUST?) come from that milieu - be contributors to
open community cloud efforts that fit within the Fedora/RHEL
ecosystem.
* Participation point for upstream components that could play in/run
on Fedora-family technology.
I'd like to run the first mini-CUDCon as a cloud track for FUDCon
Milan, then the first full-CUDCon at FUDCon Blacksburg 2012. (I'll be
contacting those organizers separately from here.) I'm interested in
your reaction to this idea before I get too much farther. :)
There are a few reasons for doing a stand-alone conference brand from
FUDCon and Fedora. One of these is that it's harder to argue that some
cloud efforts fit within FUDCon. For example, Red Hat's OpenShift is
built from Fedora-sourced components, on an open source architecture
that includes Fedora technologies, but it is not yet entirely open
source, so it doesn't have (m)any components in the Fedora package
repo. Some open cloud communities may want to play in the Fedora space
even if there isn't going to be a pure set of packages to install.
CUDCon is a place to have these crossover discussions, as a catalyst
and sowing-of-grass for future efforts.
Audience:
* People who may think, "Our open source cloud software is not in
Fedora, so FUDCon isn't for us."
** They benefit from exposure to FUDCon.
** Way to include increased cloud interest without diluting or
distracting the FUDCon focus.
** Cross-seeding with FUDCon possible but no mandatory, more relaxed
exchange of ideas.
* Fedora-family of developers, administrators, and users (including
RHEL/CentOS/Scientific Linux).
* Open source cloud enthusiasts.
** Folks who are interested in learning or teaching about open source
cloud.
* Individuals or organizations developing and deploying in the cloud.
* Software companies with one or more open source cloud components in
their stack.
As I add more information to this proposal, you can keep track by
putting a watch on this page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CUDCon_proposal
- Karsten
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
gpg: AD0E0C41
3:46 p.m.
On 08/22/2011 01:25 PM, Karsten Wade wrote:
Cloud SIG folks:
We love the Fedora FUDCon model. Just as JBoss did with JUDCon, I'd
like to start a new users and developers-focused conference around
cloud efforts that relate to Fedora and, by effect, Red Hat's cloud
and virtualization efforts.
Not-so-tentatively called CUDCon, "Ruminate with us about clouds!",
the Cloud Users and Developers Conference (beginning) idea is:
* Go alongside an existing FUDCon.
** Existing base of users and developers who are naturally interested
in the technical focus of CUDCon.
** Attract wider range and more sponsorship.
** Cross-seed people and talks so cloud-related talks at FUDCon are
also part of CUDCon.
** Grow attendance at FUDCon by bringing in cloud-focused people who
might not otherwise attend.
* Bring in open community cloud efforts of all backgrounds that are
built on an open source stack that include Fedora or its
remixes/downstreams such as RHEL, CentOS, etc.
** Nice-sized ecosystem without saying, "Everyone and everything."
** Sponsors should (MUST?) come from that milieu - be contributors to
open community cloud efforts that fit within the Fedora/RHEL
ecosystem.
* Participation point for upstream components that could play in/run
on Fedora-family technology.
I'd like to run the first mini-CUDCon as a cloud track for FUDCon
Milan, then the first full-CUDCon at FUDCon Blacksburg 2012. (I'll be
contacting those organizers separately from here.) I'm interested in
your reaction to this idea before I get too much farther. :)
There are a few reasons for doing a stand-alone conference brand from
FUDCon and Fedora. One of these is that it's harder to argue that some
cloud efforts fit within FUDCon. For example, Red Hat's OpenShift is
built from Fedora-sourced components, on an open source architecture
that includes Fedora technologies, but it is not yet entirely open
source, so it doesn't have (m)any components in the Fedora package
repo. Some open cloud communities may want to play in the Fedora space
even if there isn't going to be a pure set of packages to install.
CUDCon is a place to have these crossover discussions, as a catalyst
and sowing-of-grass for future efforts.
Audience:
* People who may think, "Our open source cloud software is not in
Fedora, so FUDCon isn't for us."
** They benefit from exposure to FUDCon.
** Way to include increased cloud interest without diluting or
distracting the FUDCon focus.
** Cross-seeding with FUDCon possible but no mandatory, more relaxed
exchange of ideas.
* Fedora-family of developers, administrators, and users (including
RHEL/CentOS/Scientific Linux).
* Open source cloud enthusiasts.
** Folks who are interested in learning or teaching about open source
cloud.
* Individuals or organizations developing and deploying in the cloud.
* Software companies with one or more open source cloud components in
their stack.
As I add more information to this proposal, you can keep track by
putting a watch on this page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CUDCon_proposal
So my gut feelings on this:
* Having this at the *same time* as FUDCon would be less than optimal,
as we've seen in the past with having FUDCon co-lo'd with JUDCon or
Summit, or even FUDCon at the same time as other events (fosdem, etc.).
People have to choose from one or the other, and can't make the most of
their time at either event. Even FADs run on the same days as
$variousconferences wind up having people come in and out and not be
able to get anything done.
* Having it before/after puts a lot of folks in the position of having
to take off a full week from work, or else having to choose one or the
other.
* I fear that despite having it under "different branding" - even having
it at the same time as a Red Hat-sponsored "event" will give it the
illusion that it's going to be very Red Hat-focused - possibly
disenfranchising other folks from coming.
I really like the idea of having a Cloud Developer/End user-focused
event, giving devs the opportunity to work amongst each other and find
common ground, ways to work together, and getting to hear about the gaps
that end-users are experiencing -- but I feel like having it be more
independent, and getting some key folks in from other communities to
help drive it and put it together, would make it much more
unbiased-appearing.
We did have what was more or less a "full track," so to speak, of
cloud-stuff at FUDCon this year, and that worked very well, even though
it was somewhat Fedora-focused.
My other major concern is "what happens if it's super successful" (oh
noes!) - how do we manage that with the limited Fedora budget that we
have, or where are we getting money to sponsor what could potentially be
another 100 folks showing up - as far as a "fudpub option", having
enough rooms at a hotel at a point when FUDCon itself has blocked off
only enough rooms for a Fedora audience, etc.
Generally, I think it would be far better off as an independent event,
particularly if we want it to be an Independent Event - we can't say
that we want it to be for everyone and that it's not Fedora-focused, but
still want to leverage the fact that Fedora is onsite. I really feel
like it's one or the other, but doing both I think causes a big
distraction for FUDCon itself, and ties itself in a way to Red Hat
branding that really makes it not independent, no matter how much we say
otherwise. Even calling itself an *UDCon is essentially reusing names
that are given to other Red Hat conferences, which I suspect probably
would just give people the impression that it's going to be very RHT
focused.
Sorry to be all Negative-Nancy. Like I said, I like the idea - but I
don't want the idea, or FUDCon, to suffer - I think it could be very
successful as something that is more independent, both in terms of
attendees and output done.
-Robyn
- Karsten
_______________________________________________
cloud mailing list
cloud(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
5:25 p.m.
I'll likely end up answering stuff a few times, but that's OK.
Part of this is that I had two ideas at the same time - one to do an
open source conference, the other to call it CUDCon. Clearly it's an
evolving beast. Onward with replies ...
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
So my gut feelings on this:
* Having this at the *same time* as FUDCon would be less than optimal,
as we've seen in the past with having FUDCon co-lo'd with JUDCon or
Summit, or even FUDCon at the same time as other events (fosdem, etc.).
People have to choose from one or the other, and can't make the most of
their time at either event. Even FADs run on the same days as
$variousconferences wind up having people come in and out and not be
able to get anything done.
* Having it before/after puts a lot of folks in the position of having
to take off a full week from work, or else having to choose one or the
other.
So perhaps my thinking on this is a few years out of date, considering
the alignment of thinking that says, "No, duh!"
The thinking is, bring in a *new* set of people who wouldn't be at
FUDCon.
Don't put up a competing track, merge. All the Fedora-focused cloud
talks end up being done "within" CUDCon. Think of it, if you will, as
a tag saying, "This talk is interesting to Fedora & cloud," i.e., more
than one audience.
* I fear that despite having it under "different branding"
- even having
it at the same time as a Red Hat-sponsored "event" will give it the
illusion that it's going to be very Red Hat-focused - possibly
disenfranchising other folks from coming.
I'll be honest, I think (as with the original FUDCon), the CUDCon as a
brand is good enough it is worth doing battle with the "Yet another
*UDCon from Red Hat."
But as I said at the start, and is clear in the response, there are 3
points here.
1. Is it useful to have an open source cloud conference?
2. Can it be called CUDCon or does it need a more neutral name? But
what about the humor value? (CUDSummit.org is available, too, but
loses the -con air.)
3. Should it be paired with FUDCon?
Bigger conferences pair stuff all the time and it works. I'm just
wondering if CUDCon is the thing that grows FUDCon to be bigger-er so
it doesn't suffer from the brain-drainage problem.
I really like the idea of having a Cloud Developer/End user-focused
event, giving devs the opportunity to work amongst each other and find
common ground, ways to work together, and getting to hear about the gaps
that end-users are experiencing -- but I feel like having it be more
independent, and getting some key folks in from other communities to
help drive it and put it together, would make it much more
unbiased-appearing.
OK, let's keep that as a very serious option, that I just take this to
a stand-alone, new plan and discussion, then start pulling people in
from various related communities.
We did have what was more or less a "full track," so to
speak, of
cloud-stuff at FUDCon this year, and that worked very well, even though
it was somewhat Fedora-focused.
My other major concern is "what happens if it's super successful" (oh
noes!) - how do we manage that with the limited Fedora budget that we
have, or where are we getting money to sponsor what could potentially be
another 100 folks showing up - as far as a "fudpub option", having
enough rooms at a hotel at a point when FUDCon itself has blocked off
only enough rooms for a Fedora audience, etc.
I'm using this open thinking process to bake a plan I'll be presenting
to platform and cloud product and marketing folks at Red Hat for
funding -- regardless of FUDCon connection. Do I think the FUDCon
connection makes it an easier or harder sell for those folks? Not sure
yet ...
So my go-plan for Milan is to scrape by with what I can find for
funding (very little) but prove the model, and use that to justify
actual budget for Blacksburg from $sponsors. Naturally, I'd start
looking for sponsorship first at home ...
Generally, I think it would be far better off as an independent
event,
particularly if we want it to be an Independent Event - we can't say
that we want it to be for everyone and that it's not Fedora-focused, but
still want to leverage the fact that Fedora is onsite. I really feel
like it's one or the other, but doing both I think causes a big
distraction for FUDCon itself, and ties itself in a way to Red Hat
branding that really makes it not independent, no matter how much we say
otherwise. Even calling itself an *UDCon is essentially reusing names
that are given to other Red Hat conferences, which I suspect probably
would just give people the impression that it's going to be very RHT
focused.
Sorry to be all Negative-Nancy. Like I said, I like the idea - but I
don't want the idea, or FUDCon, to suffer - I think it could be very
successful as something that is more independent, both in terms of
attendees and output done.
You'll note in the proposal that one of the values of connecting with
a FUDCon is the chance to interrelate with the very developers who
work on both important upstreams and important integration points
(Fedora and RHEL/EPEL.) That's a value and focus to start.
I'm feeling like that is something I *can* deliver on by pairing with
FUDCon.
I can't deliver that equivalent value without pairing an open source
cloud conference with another conference.
I see there is enough there-there to bring together some of the open
source cloud efforts to a conference, but what brings out the kernel
and packaging and release engineering folks from the various Linux
distros?
If we can get a conference that *starts* alongside FUDCon, there is no
reason it can't run alongside other distro-specific conferences.
And that brings us back around to the saw's edge that I think FUDCon
is at. It doesn't have to grow in size, but if it is going to, one way
is to figure out how to embrace the shared communities of interest.
Anyway, I'm not stuck on any idea other than the same one we all agree
needs doing, 'neutral-ground open source cloud conference'. Well, I'm
a bit stuck in not taking ourselves too seriously, which is why I want
to be all clever with the CUDonyms.
- Karsten
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
gpg: AD0E0C41
5:53 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 16:25, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Bigger conferences pair stuff all the time and it works. I'm
just
wondering if CUDCon is the thing that grows FUDCon to be bigger-er so
it doesn't suffer from the brain-drainage problem.
The key word to me in the above is "bigger" conference. FudCon's have
been at the breaking point in various ways lately from the number of
people attending to the number of people who are organizing/making it
happen. I would say it is at the maximum of a sustainable volunteer
effort. From looking at various "cons" that go from this size to the
next, you are looking at the usual "Selling out" stage. The amount of
time/personell you need to get it working and not falling apart goes
up quite a bit (it is a discontinuous point on a cost curve). We
aren't looking at say "doubling" a budget but a quadruple or more for
maybe less than 2x times the people going.
We would also have to rethink deal with the barcamp format because one
of the complaints we hear over and over again is that there are two
many things going on and people can't see the things they want. I have
seen more than one developer just not go to anything because there was
too many things and they found sitting in a chair and hacking more
enjoyable than choosing. [WHat many seem to be waiting for is someone
from some group to come out and ask them to come in.. which they
gladly do.]
tl;dr
Do I think a FLOSS Cloud conference a good idea? Yes.
Do I think it is a good fit to the current FUDcon structure? No.
Could a mixture be possible? Yes
Could that mixture be ready by Blacksburg? Maybe if the current
organizers really want it and aren't at their limits.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance."
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard
battle." -- Ian MacLaren
6:04 p.m.
On 08/22/2011 03:25 PM, Karsten Wade wrote:
I'll likely end up answering stuff a few times, but that's
OK.
Part of this is that I had two ideas at the same time - one to do an
open source conference, the other to call it CUDCon. Clearly it's an
evolving beast. Onward with replies ...
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
> So my gut feelings on this:
>
> * Having this at the *same time* as FUDCon would be less than optimal,
> as we've seen in the past with having FUDCon co-lo'd with JUDCon or
> Summit, or even FUDCon at the same time as other events (fosdem, etc.).
> People have to choose from one or the other, and can't make the most of
> their time at either event. Even FADs run on the same days as
> $variousconferences wind up having people come in and out and not be
> able to get anything done.
> * Having it before/after puts a lot of folks in the position of having
> to take off a full week from work, or else having to choose one or the
> other.
So perhaps my thinking on this is a few years out of date, considering
the alignment of thinking that says, "No, duh!"
The thinking is, bring in a *new* set of people who wouldn't be at
FUDCon.
I understand that. My thinking is, that those people won't want to come
to a place where they're feeling like they're going to have Fedora
constantly being "advertised."
Don't put up a competing track, merge. All the Fedora-focused
cloud
talks end up being done "within" CUDCon. Think of it, if you will, as
a tag saying, "This talk is interesting to Fedora& cloud," i.e., more
than one audience.
Yes, but all of the non-Fedora cloud stuff winds up being in
that track
as well, and it becomes something that a bunch of us have to choose
from. And it's the folks who have been busting ass to make Cloud
actually successful in Fedora - we're the ones who wind up getting the
most screwed. Because we care about Fedora, and we care about Cloud.
It's one thing to have a day-long track - it's entirely something
different to expand it to something large where we're obligated to
essentially be at one event or another.
> * I fear that despite having it under "different
branding" - even having
> it at the same time as a Red Hat-sponsored "event" will give it the
> illusion that it's going to be very Red Hat-focused - possibly
> disenfranchising other folks from coming.
I'll be honest, I think (as with the original FUDCon), the CUDCon as a
brand is good enough it is worth doing battle with the "Yet another
*UDCon from Red Hat."
But as I said at the start, and is clear in the response, there are 3
points here.
1. Is it useful to have an open source cloud conference?
Yes.
2. Can it be called CUDCon or does it need a more neutral name? But
what about the humor value? (CUDSummit.org is available, too, but
loses the -con air.)
While I think it's cute, I think a more neutral name
and more neutral
venue would make it more neutral.
3. Should it be paired with FUDCon?
Bigger conferences pair stuff all the time and it works. I'm just
wondering if CUDCon is the thing that grows FUDCon to be bigger-er so
it doesn't suffer from the brain-drainage problem.
Yes, bigger conferences pair
stuff all the time. But it's usually the
"vendor-neutral" conference that is the main event, and "branded"
parts
of that may run before or after. Take KVM Forum and Linuxcon for example
- obviously LinuxCon was the main event, and KVM Forum was an add on.
But they weren't simultaneous, people weren't forced to choose - they
went early, and stayed later. Same goes for things like Build a Cloud
Day preceding events like SCALE, OLF, etc.
I don't want FUDCon or CUDCon to be the solution to "fix" the other
problem. They should both be able to stand on their own as viable
events. As it is, people are *fully booked* when they come to FUDCon
with things they already have to solve/hack on. I would say at least a
good half of the people active on this list and in meetings, myself
included, don't do the Cloud SIG as part of "their job" - it's purely
volunteer. And there are other folks for whom Cloud is their primary
job, and maybe even "Cloud in Fedora" is part of their job, but are far
more active in Fedora than just that angle - gholms and ke4qqq are the
primary examples here. For people like us, and I don't want this to come
off as 'all about me' since we all know my actual technical contribution
is really really low ;) - our ability to effectively participate in both
parts of the conference is basically shot.
> I really like the idea of having a Cloud Developer/End
user-focused
> event, giving devs the opportunity to work amongst each other and find
> common ground, ways to work together, and getting to hear about the gaps
> that end-users are experiencing -- but I feel like having it be more
> independent, and getting some key folks in from other communities to
> help drive it and put it together, would make it much more
> unbiased-appearing.
OK, let's keep that as a very serious option, that I just take this to
a stand-alone, new plan and discussion, then start pulling people in
from various related communities.
> We did have what was more or less a "full track," so to speak, of
> cloud-stuff at FUDCon this year, and that worked very well, even though
> it was somewhat Fedora-focused.
>
> My other major concern is "what happens if it's super successful" (oh
> noes!) - how do we manage that with the limited Fedora budget that we
> have, or where are we getting money to sponsor what could potentially be
> another 100 folks showing up - as far as a "fudpub option", having
> enough rooms at a hotel at a point when FUDCon itself has blocked off
> only enough rooms for a Fedora audience, etc.
I'm using this open thinking process to bake a plan I'll be presenting
to platform and cloud product and marketing folks at Red Hat for
funding -- regardless of FUDCon connection. Do I think the FUDCon
connection makes it an easier or harder sell for those folks? Not sure
yet ...
So my go-plan for Milan is to scrape by with what I can find for
funding (very little) but prove the model, and use that to justify
actual budget for Blacksburg from $sponsors. Naturally, I'd start
looking for sponsorship first at home ...
> Generally, I think it would be far better off as an independent event,
> particularly if we want it to be an Independent Event - we can't say
> that we want it to be for everyone and that it's not Fedora-focused, but
> still want to leverage the fact that Fedora is onsite. I really feel
> like it's one or the other, but doing both I think causes a big
> distraction for FUDCon itself, and ties itself in a way to Red Hat
> branding that really makes it not independent, no matter how much we say
> otherwise. Even calling itself an *UDCon is essentially reusing names
> that are given to other Red Hat conferences, which I suspect probably
> would just give people the impression that it's going to be very RHT
> focused.
>
> Sorry to be all Negative-Nancy. Like I said, I like the idea - but I
> don't want the idea, or FUDCon, to suffer - I think it could be very
> successful as something that is more independent, both in terms of
> attendees and output done.
You'll note in the proposal that one of the values of connecting with
a FUDCon is the chance to interrelate with the very developers who
work on both important upstreams and important integration points
(Fedora and RHEL/EPEL.) That's a value and focus to start.
I'm feeling like that is something I *can* deliver on by pairing with
FUDCon.
I can't deliver that equivalent value without pairing an open source
cloud conference with another conference.
Do we really need that value? Is the
value of having 10+ Big Name open
source cloud projects not enough?
If anything, I'd argue that the most value would NOT be in the OS layer
- the most value would be in synchronizing with virtualization projects,
and with other management pieces (Puppet, Chef, Zenoss, etc.). For the
most part, the cloud stuff out there is abstracted away from having a
direct relationship with the OS folks by virtue of the fact that most of
it is used to orchestrate virtualization bits. Even if we did try and
deliver that value via FUDCon, most cloud folks are in the know enough
to know that the only people present are going to be Fedora/RHEL and
KVM-focused, and unless we get folks from Ubuntu and Suse and Microsoft
and Xen and VMware to show up, the "value" isn't going to be very
comprehensive for them to be compelling.
I see there is enough there-there to bring together some of the open
source cloud efforts to a conference, but what brings out the kernel
and packaging and release engineering folks from the various Linux
distros?
If we can get a conference that *starts* alongside FUDCon, there is no
reason it can't run alongside other distro-specific conferences.
And that brings us back around to the saw's edge that I think FUDCon
is at. It doesn't have to grow in size, but if it is going to, one way
is to figure out how to embrace the shared communities of interest.
Anyway, I'm not stuck on any idea other than the same one we all agree
needs doing, 'neutral-ground open source cloud conference'. Well, I'm
a bit stuck in not taking ourselves too seriously, which is why I want
to be all clever with the CUDonyms.
- Karsten
_______________________________________________
cloud mailing list
cloud(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud
6:26 p.m.
All of that said below (top-posting for those who fell asleep) - is
anyone on-list available to do even a Cloud track at FUDCon in Milan?
Particularly looking at folks from/repping for/presenting on Aeolus,
HekaFS, Cloudstack, Openstack, Eucalyptus.
Sept. 30 - Oct. 2.
-Robyn
On 08/22/2011 04:04 PM, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
On 08/22/2011 03:25 PM, Karsten Wade wrote:
> I'll likely end up answering stuff a few times, but that's OK.
>
> Part of this is that I had two ideas at the same time - one to do an
> open source conference, the other to call it CUDCon. Clearly it's an
> evolving beast. Onward with replies ...
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
>
>> So my gut feelings on this:
>>
>> * Having this at the *same time* as FUDCon would be less than optimal,
>> as we've seen in the past with having FUDCon co-lo'd with JUDCon or
>> Summit, or even FUDCon at the same time as other events (fosdem, etc.).
>> People have to choose from one or the other, and can't make the most of
>> their time at either event. Even FADs run on the same days as
>> $variousconferences wind up having people come in and out and not be
>> able to get anything done.
>> * Having it before/after puts a lot of folks in the position of having
>> to take off a full week from work, or else having to choose one or the
>> other.
> So perhaps my thinking on this is a few years out of date, considering
> the alignment of thinking that says, "No, duh!"
>
> The thinking is, bring in a *new* set of people who wouldn't be at
> FUDCon.
I understand that. My thinking is, that those people won't want to
come to a place where they're feeling like they're going to have
Fedora constantly being "advertised."
> Don't put up a competing track, merge. All the Fedora-focused cloud
> talks end up being done "within" CUDCon. Think of it, if you will, as
> a tag saying, "This talk is interesting to Fedora& cloud," i.e., more
> than one audience.
Yes, but all of the non-Fedora cloud stuff winds up being in that
track as well, and it becomes something that a bunch of us have to
choose from. And it's the folks who have been busting ass to make
Cloud actually successful in Fedora - we're the ones who wind up
getting the most screwed. Because we care about Fedora, and we care
about Cloud. It's one thing to have a day-long track - it's entirely
something different to expand it to something large where we're
obligated to essentially be at one event or another.
>> * I fear that despite having it under "different branding" - even
having
>> it at the same time as a Red Hat-sponsored "event" will give it the
>> illusion that it's going to be very Red Hat-focused - possibly
>> disenfranchising other folks from coming.
> I'll be honest, I think (as with the original FUDCon), the CUDCon as a
> brand is good enough it is worth doing battle with the "Yet another
> *UDCon from Red Hat."
>
> But as I said at the start, and is clear in the response, there are 3
> points here.
>
> 1. Is it useful to have an open source cloud conference?
Yes.
> 2. Can it be called CUDCon or does it need a more neutral name? But
> what about the humor value? (CUDSummit.org is available, too, but
> loses the -con air.)
While I think it's cute, I think a more neutral name and more neutral
venue would make it more neutral.
> 3. Should it be paired with FUDCon?
>
> Bigger conferences pair stuff all the time and it works. I'm just
> wondering if CUDCon is the thing that grows FUDCon to be bigger-er so
> it doesn't suffer from the brain-drainage problem.
Yes, bigger conferences pair stuff all the time. But it's usually the
"vendor-neutral" conference that is the main event, and "branded"
parts of that may run before or after. Take KVM Forum and Linuxcon for
example - obviously LinuxCon was the main event, and KVM Forum was an
add on. But they weren't simultaneous, people weren't forced to
choose - they went early, and stayed later. Same goes for things like
Build a Cloud Day preceding events like SCALE, OLF, etc.
I don't want FUDCon or CUDCon to be the solution to "fix" the other
problem. They should both be able to stand on their own as viable
events. As it is, people are *fully booked* when they come to FUDCon
with things they already have to solve/hack on. I would say at least a
good half of the people active on this list and in meetings, myself
included, don't do the Cloud SIG as part of "their job" - it's purely
volunteer. And there are other folks for whom Cloud is their primary
job, and maybe even "Cloud in Fedora" is part of their job, but are
far more active in Fedora than just that angle - gholms and ke4qqq are
the primary examples here. For people like us, and I don't want this
to come off as 'all about me' since we all know my actual technical
contribution is really really low ;) - our ability to effectively
participate in both parts of the conference is basically shot.
>> I really like the idea of having a Cloud Developer/End user-focused
>> event, giving devs the opportunity to work amongst each other and find
>> common ground, ways to work together, and getting to hear about the gaps
>> that end-users are experiencing -- but I feel like having it be more
>> independent, and getting some key folks in from other communities to
>> help drive it and put it together, would make it much more
>> unbiased-appearing.
> OK, let's keep that as a very serious option, that I just take this to
> a stand-alone, new plan and discussion, then start pulling people in
> from various related communities.
>
>> We did have what was more or less a "full track," so to speak, of
>> cloud-stuff at FUDCon this year, and that worked very well, even though
>> it was somewhat Fedora-focused.
>>
>> My other major concern is "what happens if it's super successful"
(oh
>> noes!) - how do we manage that with the limited Fedora budget that we
>> have, or where are we getting money to sponsor what could potentially be
>> another 100 folks showing up - as far as a "fudpub option", having
>> enough rooms at a hotel at a point when FUDCon itself has blocked off
>> only enough rooms for a Fedora audience, etc.
> I'm using this open thinking process to bake a plan I'll be presenting
> to platform and cloud product and marketing folks at Red Hat for
> funding -- regardless of FUDCon connection. Do I think the FUDCon
> connection makes it an easier or harder sell for those folks? Not sure
> yet ...
>
> So my go-plan for Milan is to scrape by with what I can find for
> funding (very little) but prove the model, and use that to justify
> actual budget for Blacksburg from $sponsors. Naturally, I'd start
> looking for sponsorship first at home ...
>
>> Generally, I think it would be far better off as an independent event,
>> particularly if we want it to be an Independent Event - we can't say
>> that we want it to be for everyone and that it's not Fedora-focused, but
>> still want to leverage the fact that Fedora is onsite. I really feel
>> like it's one or the other, but doing both I think causes a big
>> distraction for FUDCon itself, and ties itself in a way to Red Hat
>> branding that really makes it not independent, no matter how much we say
>> otherwise. Even calling itself an *UDCon is essentially reusing names
>> that are given to other Red Hat conferences, which I suspect probably
>> would just give people the impression that it's going to be very RHT
>> focused.
>>
>> Sorry to be all Negative-Nancy. Like I said, I like the idea - but I
>> don't want the idea, or FUDCon, to suffer - I think it could be very
>> successful as something that is more independent, both in terms of
>> attendees and output done.
> You'll note in the proposal that one of the values of connecting with
> a FUDCon is the chance to interrelate with the very developers who
> work on both important upstreams and important integration points
> (Fedora and RHEL/EPEL.) That's a value and focus to start.
>
> I'm feeling like that is something I *can* deliver on by pairing with
> FUDCon.
>
> I can't deliver that equivalent value without pairing an open source
> cloud conference with another conference.
Do we really need that value? Is the value of having 10+ Big Name open
source cloud projects not enough?
If anything, I'd argue that the most value would NOT be in the OS
layer - the most value would be in synchronizing with virtualization
projects, and with other management pieces (Puppet, Chef, Zenoss,
etc.). For the most part, the cloud stuff out there is abstracted away
from having a direct relationship with the OS folks by virtue of the
fact that most of it is used to orchestrate virtualization bits. Even
if we did try and deliver that value via FUDCon, most cloud folks are
in the know enough to know that the only people present are going to
be Fedora/RHEL and KVM-focused, and unless we get folks from Ubuntu
and Suse and Microsoft and Xen and VMware to show up, the "value"
isn't going to be very comprehensive for them to be compelling.
> I see there is enough there-there to bring together some of the open
> source cloud efforts to a conference, but what brings out the kernel
> and packaging and release engineering folks from the various Linux
> distros?
>
> If we can get a conference that *starts* alongside FUDCon, there is no
> reason it can't run alongside other distro-specific conferences.
>
> And that brings us back around to the saw's edge that I think FUDCon
> is at. It doesn't have to grow in size, but if it is going to, one way
> is to figure out how to embrace the shared communities of interest.
>
> Anyway, I'm not stuck on any idea other than the same one we all agree
> needs doing, 'neutral-ground open source cloud conference'. Well, I'm
> a bit stuck in not taking ourselves too seriously, which is why I want
> to be all clever with the CUDonyms.
>
> - Karsten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> cloud(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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1:49 a.m.
I'll be there and I can do of course a BoxGrinder talk.
--Marek
On 23 sie 2011, at 01:26, Robyn Bergeron wrote:
All of that said below (top-posting for those who fell asleep) - is
anyone on-list available to do even a Cloud track at FUDCon in Milan? Particularly looking
at folks from/repping for/presenting on Aeolus, HekaFS, Cloudstack, Openstack,
Eucalyptus.
Sept. 30 - Oct. 2.
-Robyn
3:47 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Cloud SIG folks:
We love the Fedora FUDCon model. Just as JBoss did with JUDCon, I'd
like to start a new users and developers-focused conference around
cloud efforts that relate to Fedora and, by effect, Red Hat's cloud
and virtualization efforts.
Not-so-tentatively called CUDCon, "Ruminate with us about clouds!",
the Cloud Users and Developers Conference (beginning) idea is:
* Go alongside an existing FUDCon.
** Existing base of users and developers who are naturally interested
in the technical focus of CUDCon.
** Attract wider range and more sponsorship.
** Cross-seed people and talks so cloud-related talks at FUDCon are
also part of CUDCon.
** Grow attendance at FUDCon by bringing in cloud-focused people who
might not otherwise attend.
* Bring in open community cloud efforts of all backgrounds that are
built on an open source stack that include Fedora or its
remixes/downstreams such as RHEL, CentOS, etc.
** Nice-sized ecosystem without saying, "Everyone and everything."
** Sponsors should (MUST?) come from that milieu - be contributors to
open community cloud efforts that fit within the Fedora/RHEL
ecosystem.
* Participation point for upstream components that could play in/run
on Fedora-family technology.
I'd like to run the first mini-CUDCon as a cloud track for FUDCon
Milan, then the first full-CUDCon at FUDCon Blacksburg 2012. (I'll be
contacting those organizers separately from here.) I'm interested in
your reaction to this idea before I get too much farther. :)
There are a few reasons for doing a stand-alone conference brand from
FUDCon and Fedora. One of these is that it's harder to argue that some
cloud efforts fit within FUDCon. For example, Red Hat's OpenShift is
built from Fedora-sourced components, on an open source architecture
that includes Fedora technologies, but it is not yet entirely open
source, so it doesn't have (m)any components in the Fedora package
repo. Some open cloud communities may want to play in the Fedora space
even if there isn't going to be a pure set of packages to install.
CUDCon is a place to have these crossover discussions, as a catalyst
and sowing-of-grass for future efforts.
Audience:
* People who may think, "Our open source cloud software is not in
Fedora, so FUDCon isn't for us."
** They benefit from exposure to FUDCon.
** Way to include increased cloud interest without diluting or
distracting the FUDCon focus.
** Cross-seeding with FUDCon possible but no mandatory, more relaxed
exchange of ideas.
* Fedora-family of developers, administrators, and users (including
RHEL/CentOS/Scientific Linux).
* Open source cloud enthusiasts.
** Folks who are interested in learning or teaching about open source
cloud.
* Individuals or organizations developing and deploying in the cloud.
* Software companies with one or more open source cloud components in
their stack.
As I add more information to this proposal, you can keep track by
putting a watch on this page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CUDCon_proposal
- Karsten
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
gpg: AD0E0C41
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Hi Quaid,
So I have been thinking about this from both a conference perspective
and a Fedora perspective, and I think my reaction depends on what you
want to achieve.
If you want to achieve a 'cloud' section of FUDcon I think this will
work well. If you are thinking of eventually spinning off CUDcon into
it's own independent conference I think it will work contrary to your
long term goals. Fedora, while awesome, and dear to my heart, is
likely to be pretty polarizing 'parent' to the conference. Both FUDcon
and JUDcon are pretty project-specific, and while there is always
tangential material, it's always been focused. So for instance there
are certain cloud projects that have targeted certain distributions
that aren't Fedora for one reason or another - how welcome are they
going to feel? There's also going to be the perception that this is
RHT's conference, and since essentially RHT is a competitor in the
cloud space with other cloud projects I fear many of them will feel
it's pointless to show up, or that they aren't welcome. (After all,
would we send someone to UDS to talk about how awesome Fedora 16 with
Gnome 3 is?)
We've also all experienced the problems that come with just tacking on
events to conferences. If they are done before or after the conference
they seem to work well. If they run parallel one of two things happen:
1. The draw to the add-on is so great it hurts the conference itself,
or 2. The main conference is so captivating that no one shows up for
the add-on.
I like the idea of a CUDcon - but if it were me (and it clearly isn't,
I am doing no work on this.) I think I'd shoot for a standalone
conference, once a year, and before it's even announced I'd get some
significant buy in from the folks at places like Gluster, Euca,
OpenStack, Ceph(Dreamhost), CloudFoundry, etc, so that they will show
up and participate.) To my knowledge there's no cloud-focused open
source conference, and it's a niche that done right should draw lots
of folks.
--David
5:33 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 04:47:07PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
Hi Quaid,
So I have been thinking about this from both a conference perspective
and a Fedora perspective, and I think my reaction depends on what you
want to achieve.
I'm glad you've had a chance to ruminate on it. :)
If you want to achieve a 'cloud' section of FUDcon I think
this will
work well. If you are thinking of eventually spinning off CUDcon into
it's own independent conference I think it will work contrary to your
long term goals. Fedora, while awesome, and dear to my heart, is
likely to be pretty polarizing 'parent' to the conference. Both FUDcon
and JUDcon are pretty project-specific, and while there is always
tangential material, it's always been focused. So for instance there
are certain cloud projects that have targeted certain distributions
that aren't Fedora for one reason or another - how welcome are they
going to feel? There's also going to be the perception that this is
RHT's conference, and since essentially RHT is a competitor in the
cloud space with other cloud projects I fear many of them will feel
it's pointless to show up, or that they aren't welcome. (After all,
would we send someone to UDS to talk about how awesome Fedora 16 with
Gnome 3 is?)
I guess I just don't know the real facts on how people feel and
think, so I don't really know where to position these ideas:
1. Neutral-ground open source cloud conference that doesn't take
itself too seriously.
2. Provides value of getting things done rather than all the vendors
getting together to talk at each other for three days. Unconference
and hackathon, which benefits from the sort of upstream experience
available at a typical FUDCon.
3. Grows itself not to the detriment of other conferences because it
solves a problem otherwise unsolved, and so brings value to
whatever other events it might be paired with.
I mean, if there is a neutral-ground open source cloud conference I
should be focusing on, maybe that's a better idea for this energy?
We've also all experienced the problems that come with just
tacking on
events to conferences. If they are done before or after the conference
they seem to work well. If they run parallel one of two things happen:
1. The draw to the add-on is so great it hurts the conference itself,
or 2. The main conference is so captivating that no one shows up for
the add-on.
Are those the only optional results? Or the most likely?
I'll claim being inexperienced here. I have seen it both work and not
work, depending.
I like the idea of a CUDcon - but if it were me (and it clearly
isn't,
I am doing no work on this.) I think I'd shoot for a standalone
conference, once a year, and before it's even announced I'd get some
significant buy in from the folks at places like Gluster, Euca,
OpenStack, Ceph(Dreamhost), CloudFoundry, etc, so that they will show
up and participate.) To my knowledge there's no cloud-focused open
source conference, and it's a niche that done right should draw lots
of folks.
OK, thanks, that's definitely one of the potential solutions.
- Karsten
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
gpg: AD0E0C41
1:28 a.m.
On Mon, 2011-08-22 at 15:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 04:47:07PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
> I like the idea of a CUDcon - but if it were me (and it clearly
isn't,
> I am doing no work on this.) I think I'd shoot for a standalone
> conference, once a year, and before it's even announced I'd get some
> significant buy in from the folks at places like Gluster, Euca,
> OpenStack, Ceph(Dreamhost), CloudFoundry, etc, so that they will show
> up and participate.) To my knowledge there's no cloud-focused open
> source conference, and it's a niche that done right should draw lots
> of folks.
OK, thanks, that's definitely one of the potential solutions.
David's suggestion feels right to me too. There are a lot of open-source
cloud projects working away in their own silos. I think there would be
huge value in getting those communities together. You won't achieve that
with a Fedora/RHEL/Red Hat centric event.
This would be an event with a similar intent to the Desktop Summit -
bring complementary and competing communities together so they can both
meet peers within their own community and have exposure to other
communities.
Cheers,
Mark.
11:47 a.m.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 07:28:23AM +0100, Mark McLoughlin wrote:
On Mon, 2011-08-22 at 15:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 04:47:07PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
> > I like the idea of a CUDcon - but if it were me (and it clearly isn't,
> > I am doing no work on this.) I think I'd shoot for a standalone
> > conference, once a year, and before it's even announced I'd get some
> > significant buy in from the folks at places like Gluster, Euca,
> > OpenStack, Ceph(Dreamhost), CloudFoundry, etc, so that they will show
> > up and participate.) To my knowledge there's no cloud-focused open
> > source conference, and it's a niche that done right should draw lots
> > of folks.
>
> OK, thanks, that's definitely one of the potential solutions.
David's suggestion feels right to me too. There are a lot of open-source
cloud projects working away in their own silos. I think there would be
huge value in getting those communities together. You won't achieve that
with a Fedora/RHEL/Red Hat centric event.
This would be an event with a similar intent to the Desktop Summit -
bring complementary and competing communities together so they can both
meet peers within their own community and have exposure to other
communities.
Yes, after this discussion, that seems like a clearer solution.
For myself, I have to decide about pursuing this as a pure
stand-alone, which presents a whole new world of challenges.
For this group, the questions now up in the air:
* Blacksburg has rooms to set aside in advance, if we want to plan a
cloud track or cloud day for FUDCon. Do you want to?
* A cloud day could be in advance of FUDCon by a day?
* Would you prefer a semi-planned cloud track?
* Would you prefer to just let things arise naturally out of the
BarCamp format?
- Karsten
--
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
gpg: AD0E0C41
6:24 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 14:25, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Cloud SIG folks:
We love the Fedora FUDCon model. Just as JBoss did with JUDCon, I'd
like to start a new users and developers-focused conference around
cloud efforts that relate to Fedora and, by effect, Red Hat's cloud
and virtualization efforts.
Not-so-tentatively called CUDCon, "Ruminate with us about clouds!",
the Cloud Users and Developers Conference (beginning) idea is:
The first question I would say for any Open Source Cloud Conference
needs to answer is "What about X?" where X is CentOS, Mandrake,
Slackware, Ubuntu or Windows.
The big question I still see in most cloud conversations is the OS and
not the applications involved. That is my main reason for not seeing a
good matchup of a general Cloud FLOSS conference and FUDcon. It can
put some sponsors in a hard spot because they dont' want to look
Fedora specific.. and unless we can run this as a part of UDS also..
it makes it a jarring juxtapostion.
My gut feeling on rumination is that this is more of a Red Hat Summit
set of tracks than a FUDcon.
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance."
Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard
battle." -- Ian MacLaren
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11 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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David Nalley -
Karsten Wade -
Marek Goldmann -
Mark McLoughlin -
Robyn Bergeron -
Stephen John Smoogen