1:31 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Keywords:
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We've been using the term "product" to refer to the different Fedora
variants produced and marketed as part of the new (or by now, not so new)
Fedora.next plan. This has a number of problems -- we're not actually
selling anything, and we don't want to give that impression. And some
spins users have expressed that it doesn't carry the meaning that we did
intend very well. So, we're looking for something new.
I had suggested "flavors", but that has its own problems: it's idiomatic,
doesn't translate well, and apparently I'm the only one that likes it. :)
So let's find something else.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
1:31 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by mattdm):
Over in https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/17#comment:11, Bill
Nottingham suggests "edition".
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:1>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
1:44 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jwboyer):
I like edition.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:2>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
1:55 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by sgallagh):
The only two I can think of would be "edition" or "manifestation".
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:3>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
3 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by rdieter):
+1 edition
I like flavors too, so matthew isn't alone (but I understand it's
drawbacks too)
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:4>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
11:34 p.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by pbrobinson):
I don't think "edition" is the right term as it's basically a synonym
for
version/release so I think it'll cause even more confusion than "product"
when it comes to translations because it might be then confused/translated
to the same as version so you might end up with the equivalent of "Fedora
version 21 version Workstation"
manifestation sounds like some form of disease, and is quite a complex
word and hence I also don't believe it's good for translations.
and flavours always gets associated with pictures of neapolitan ice cream
What about "blend" "brew" "infusion" or something along
those lines?
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:5>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
11:36 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by pbrobinson):
or "impression" from the publishing world
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:6>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
11:41 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by kushal):
Those will also be difficult to translate, like I can not think about any
word in my mother tongue which can represent them properly.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:7>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
3:22 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jreznik):
Edition translates well (at least) to Czech.
+1 edition
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:8>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
3:23 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jreznik):
But yes, we should give guidance to translators/marketing/ambassadors how
to properly use this term in the right context.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:9>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
4:09 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by germano):
Reading the definition of the word in a vocabulary, made me think that the
word "edition" is perfect.
It also translates perfectly in Italian and many other neolatin languages
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages )
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:10>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
5:58 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by mclasen):
I suggest not making any jerky changes after trying the new terminology
for just a single release.
'Product' does not necessarily imply 'for sale'.
The terminology is meant to stress that we are producing something
concrete, complete, and finished, that has its own definition. It is not
just a variant or 'edition' of something else, and not just a by-product
of some vaguely defined activity.
A product.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:11>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
6:22 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by jreznik):
Replying to [comment:11 mclasen]:
I suggest not making any jerky changes after trying the new
terminology
for just a single release.
'Product' does not necessarily imply 'for sale'.
The terminology is meant to stress that we are producing something
concrete,
complete, and finished, that has its own definition. It is not
just a variant or 'edition' of something else, and not just a by-product
of some vaguely defined activity.
A product.
See https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/17#comment:3 - we were kindly
asked by our main sponsor to reconsider using product terminology.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:12>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
6:56 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
-------------------------+---------------------
Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by mclasen):
Replying to [comment:12 jreznik]:
See https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/17#comment:3 - we were
kindly asked by our main sponsor to reconsider using product terminology.
To put it bluntly: if we can't build a product, then I'm not interested.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:13>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
7:07 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by hguemar):
I'd rather stick to the product terminology, changing it to flavor is
kinda a negative message we're sending out.
Our main sponsors marketing folks are being a bit overzealous here,
product is a common word, and Fedoraproject.org has a distinct identity
than Red Hat if they're afraid that our products could be confused as Red
Hat's. There wont be any confusion.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:14>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:24 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by mschwendt):
Product has been fine, "edition" is okay, "spin" has been odd and
confusing, "flavor" (esp. with its AE spelling) would be a bad (childish?)
choice. "blend", "brew", "infusion" would be even worse.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:15>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:37 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by drago01):
Before bikesheding over a new name we should step back and think again ...
Do we really want to change it? Does it make sense? .... the arguments for
changing it aren't really convincing and it makes us look bad to keep
changing things every release.
And no "product" does not imply selling (selling in the sense of asking
money for it).
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:16>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:44 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by jwboyer):
I'd certainly prefer not to change.
Matt, is it possible to go back to push back on Red Hat a bit? I find it
somewhat confusing they'd be having trouble with "Fedora Products", but
not e.g. that Red Hat is now the primary sponsor of CentOS.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:17>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:49 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by jreznik):
Replying to [comment:17 jwboyer]:
I'd certainly prefer not to change.
Matt, is it possible to go back to push back on Red Hat a bit?
And maybe let's try to invite responsible person from RH to this ticket
for clarification/discussion (not my idea, credit goes to mclasen when we
talked about it).
But I really don't see that much difference between product and edition -
it's used in the industry, probably even more than product in this
context.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:18>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
9:10 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by eischmann):
Replying to [comment:18 jreznik]:
But I really don't see that much difference between product and
edition
- it's used in the industry, probably even more than product in this
context.
I'm also opposed to this change. I think the "product" term finally sent
the message that we're working on something that is well designed and
finalized, not just on a platform. Neither flavor nor edition sends the
same message and I think "edition" is actually closer to "release".
If
someone says: another edition of Fedora has been released I understand it
as another release (e.g. F21) of Fedora has been released, not that we
have released yet another flavor of Fedora.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:19>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
9:51 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by mschwendt):
"edition" is actually closer to "release".
True. It refers to a release cycle (unless the first edition is the final
one), albeit without predicting how much the next edition will change.
On top of that, there's also "special edition" referring to a
tailored/customised/modified release. Even Volkswagen uses the German
translation of that: http://tinyurl.com/pfugyq9
Do we really want to change it? Does it make sense?
Good questions!
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:20>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
10:26 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by yn1v):
Product is a good word and I in favor of keeping that.
From the beginning I got the feeling that "product" was a place holder
until there was a better word. A word that does not compete with other
stake holders. So when I spoke to people tried to not over use product and
use some other words. One that I used the most was "solution".
I have a situation related with hardware/software and fedora give me a
solution. For instance, I installed a workstation solution on my home
desktop.
From the above list flavor, infusion, manifestation, blend ... Translation
is a problem.
The one that make most sense is edition. That also is one word that I use
to avoid saying product to many times.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:21>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
11:01 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
-------------------------+---------------------
Comment (by mattdm):
Just as a clarification, we're talking here about the marketing and press
terms we use, not the overall plan of having intentionally focused,
polished, and distinct releases targeting different identified audiences.
I'll certainly take the feedback back to RH and see who I can get to
participate actively in this discussion. I am, however, going on vacation
starting later this week and I think we won't get much done here over the
holidays in any case -- so, let's continue to discuss.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:22>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
1:48 p.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by philwyett):
Just to add another idea that maybe discarded very quickly. :-)
Fedora Collection <version_number>
|
|-- Fedora Collection <version_number> - Workstation Edition
|
|-- Fedora Collection <version_number> - Server Edition.
|
| etc.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:23>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
2:13 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by philwyett):
Alternatively move 'Collection'.
Fedora <version_number>
|
|- Fedora <version_number> - Workstation Collection.
|
|- Fedora <version_number> - Server Collection.
|
|etc.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:24>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
3:53 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by pfrields):
Replying to [comment:22 mattdm]:
Just as a clarification, we're talking here about the marketing
and
press terms we use, not the overall plan of having intentionally focused,
polished, and distinct releases targeting different identified audiences.
This point is getting too obscured. All the WGs and their participants
and collaborators understand we're building more focused deliverables now.
We may still be working on them iteratively and not there yet, but the
direction is clear. It doesn't matter if we are using the word "product"
in our internal project discussions. We're only talking about a term used
in official collateral, so it changes nothing about our efforts or our end
results.
notting's suggestion of Edition is actually perfect. It also reflects the
''editorial'' nature of the WGs in terms of figuring out what to trim,
what to enhance, and so forth.
Replying to [comment:23 philwyett]:
Fedora Collection <version_number> - Workstation Edition
Replying to [comment:24 philwyett]:
Alternatively move 'Collection'.
We don't need more words IMHO, and "Collection" does not give the same
meaning or sense as "Edition."
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:25>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
2:29 p.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by cwickert):
I think 'variant' reflects it best, but from a marketing perspective, I
would clearly prefer 'edition'.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:26>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:55 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by uraeus):
Do we actually have to choose an alternative term here? Maybe it is enough
if we just try avoid the product terminology on the website and in
official written communication. That way we can just a plethora of terms
depending on context instead of trying to come up what just feels like
attempts of coming up with quasi-synonym. So the outcome here is that
instead of trying to enforce people calling it the '3 Fedora dollops' we
instead just say 'Try to limit your use of the term 'product' when talking
about the Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server or Fedora Cloud to minimize
confusion with the term as it is used in conjunction with the commercial
Red Hat offerings'.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:27>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
4:44 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jzb):
+1 for Edition, but puzzlement that this discussion started w/the council
and not marketing...
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:28>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
4:49 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jwboyer):
Replying to [comment:28 jzb]:
+1 for Edition, but puzzlement that this discussion started w/the
council and not marketing...
Seriously, LOL.
It _did_ start with marketing and only marketing. See council ticket #17.
So now we've come full circle and hopefully everyone is in the loop and
there are no more surprises.
As for suggestions, I like Christian's take. If we really _need_ a word,
Edition sounds like the best so far.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:29>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
7:01 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by jzb):
Ah, apologies. I missed that in the maelstrom of email.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:30>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
10:32 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by mclasen):
Fwiw, Christian's approach of "just don't mention it" seems acceptable
to
me too. Just add 'product' to the list of unmentionable repositories,
technologies and terms...
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:31>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
10:58 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by mattdm):
I think it's softer than "unmentionable" -- it's not a _legal_
liability,
at least. I'm not opposed to Christian's suggestion of just avoiding it in
marketing and official written communication -- that's why I started with
just sending this to marketing. However, I found that it's really hard for
_me_ to do that and then also not accidentally slip into the habit of
writing it or talking that way to the press. That's why I thought it
easier to have an alternate term we just use everywhere.
However, if that's not what people prefer, and if it's just _me_ with that
problem, I can try harder at compartmentalizing my vocabulary. :)
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:32>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:56 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by jreznik):
So do we have any answer here? We are getting closer to the Alpha release
and we should know what to use in the release announcement (even it's
going to be plain nothing).
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:33>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
8:57 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by sgallagh):
I don't know if a formal decision was made, but it sounded like "Edition"
was winning in the polls.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:34>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
10:22 a.m.
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
Keywords: |
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Comment (by mattdm):
Replying to [comment:34 sgallagh]:
I don't know if a formal decision was made, but it sounded like
"Edition" was winning in the polls.
Yeah, let's make this official. I vote +1 for this, and unless anyone has
a -1 before the end of the week, we can call it official by lazy
consensus. That way, we can have our story straight for the F22 alpha
release.
To reiterate, this does not represent any change in strategy or plans --
it's just a marketing / and outside communication thing.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:35>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
3:10 p.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
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Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: new | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution:
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Comment (by jzb):
Going to assume "edition" and use that in the alpha release announcement
draft.
--
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:36>
council <https://fedorahosted.org/council>
Fedora Council Public Tickets
7:24 a.m.
#19: new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
-------------------------+-----------------------
Reporter: mattdm | Owner:
Status: closed | Priority: normal
Component: Fedora.next | Resolution: approved
Keywords: |
-------------------------+-----------------------
Changes (by mattdm):
* resolution: => approved
* status: new => closed
Comment:
Looks like "edition" pretty much has it.
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Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/19#comment:37>
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