Hi Ryan,

On Nov 6, 2014 4:35 PM, "Ryan Lerch" <rlerch@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/06/2014 04:18 PM, Elad Alfassa wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Liam <liam.bulkley@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 6, 2014 2:45 PM, "Ryan Lerch" <rlerch@redhat.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On 11/06/2014 02:36 PM, Anibal Gomez wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Yumex is great package manager
>>> >>
>>> >> What do you think?
>>> >>
>>> >> $ sudo yum install yumex
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards!
>>> >>
>>> >> balerocms.com
>>> >
>>> > Hi Anibal!
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for the suggestion!
>>> >
>>> > However, The currently of the Workstation is focusing more on the Software application for installing new software. While it is not a graphical package manager (it only searches and installs applications that have .desktop files) the concept is that the average user of Fedora should be able to find and install all the applications they require for the workstation it, and if they require lower level packages and services, using yum (and soon the yum replacement, DNF), via the command line is IMO the recommended default way.
>>> >
>>> Given our target audience, why not just present everything in Software? Is there some user testing data of our audience that has shown an alarming amount of confusion regarding GUI driven installation of, for instance, libraries?
>>> Imho, as long as it's clear what is a GUI program and what isn't, I think it far better to have one officially supported way of installing software than the frustration of searching for some utility in Software and not finding it.
>>> Personally, I just never touch Software. Not b/c I have anything against GUI software management but b/c I
>>> don't want to be forced to wonder "is this $package going to show up in Software?"
>>>
>>> Best/Liam
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> desktop mailing list
>>> desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
>>
>>
>> Software is not about "packages". it's about applications.
>>
>
> Liam, I understand your frustration in searching for things in software and not being able to find them. Just out of interest, what kinds of packages were you searching for? Command line applications like mutt or vim? Or command line tools like git, etc? Or low level packages like kernel and other libraries?
>

I don't use mutt or vim, but, otherwise, yeah, any of those.
There's also inbetweener items like gedit-plugin*, or gstreamer-plugins.

In the final evaluation, however, i'm not sure it really matters what it is I'm trying to install. It simply is... odd... to have to make a "guess" as to whether Software can install what I need. I say guess b/c I know that the application needs a desktop file but I don't want to have to think about that kind of thing. I don't want to be forced to make the decision which tool to use in order to get the job done.

That simply seems like an unnecessary cognitive burden.

> The line was drawn in Software to define an "Application" as something that has a desktop file -- aka a GUI application. Although you could argue that mutt, vim, git etc are applications also but users are going to use them on a command line, so i think the assumption that was made was that those users would be comfortable using the command line to install them.
>

I understand that, and I'm perfectly fine using the CLI, but since a big push was made with f.n to make Fedora a place for developers I thought I'd kick the tires on the rest of the default apps.

I've been on f21 for awhile now and I can say that because of the split-installation method, I just no longer even bother with Software.

Again, keep in mind, I've no issue with it because it's a GUI. A GUI software manager can be a great experience as it is both more discoverable than a CLI (even one as fine as yum), and allows for a richer experience such as screenshots, ratings (which, iirc, don't mean anything now, but will, presumably, become actual indications of user satisfaction, as much as such a system allows), browsing-based discovery, and the like.

> One thing that Software does add to the experience for GUI applications is the ability to browse and search all the different kinds of applications, see screenshots and more detailed descriptions. In my software installation workflow, if i am looking for a graphical application to solve my problem, i search Software (now too with the search provider, it appears in the Overview when searching there), and if i need a command line anything -- i go to the commandline and search the repos using DNF.
>

I understand all of that, but I also don't like the fact that Software is giving me an abridged view of the repos.

If I'm genuinely searching for a tool, I won't know ahead of time whether it only provides a CLI, or a GUI. Given that I just want the best tool I want to know what tools are available and Software simply doesn't work in that case. What's more, the original assumption given for the split seems odd given the genuine issues that Software is causing. I'm simply unsure why it is so important that the assumption must hold. As a result of that assumption the facts on the ground are that users have to go through mental gymnastics if they both want to install something and continue to use Software rather than just always use the CLI. Given such a situation it appears that users would gradually just stop using Software. Especially our target group who aren't afraid of the terminal.

I'm not trying to be difficult with this as I want Fedora to succeed, I'm just not seeing the benefits of the assumption, especially (once again!), given our target user base.

Best/Liam