I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file.

Matej Cepl wrote: > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote: >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file. > > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem. I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have consistency and a vision behind it. As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something. Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop: Agave FontForge Fyre GNU Image Manipulation Program gThumb Image Viewer Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor ScannerTool Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image Manipulation Program". -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... let's be practical please.

2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating(a)redhat.com&gt;: > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > let's be practical please. > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > the ones that changed the menu name. > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the name to gimp if that fits better,

most upstream gnome people to who I talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream customize as they need for them. I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling was spot on or wrong.

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating(a)redhat.com&gt;: > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers, > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also... > > > let's be practical please. > > > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're > > the ones that changed the menu name. > > > > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > name to gimp if that fits better, As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable strings. > most upstream gnome people to who I > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > customize as they need for them. > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > was spot on or wrong. Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer(a)lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU) or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.). Nils

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the > name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream > customize as they need for them. > > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling > was spot on or wrong. > whether we are allowed to do it or not is not the point. The argue you made was about brand recognition. As a downstream, should we be telling the upstream project how their brand should be handled? I really don't think so. We all recognize that brands have value because they are recognizable. But if a specific project wants to change their brand..that is THEIR choice..because its THEIR project. As distributors of 'well known' applications... we need to take our cues from the upstream project with regard to handling 'branding'. Perhaps the project leads for GIMP are actually trying to make an explicit effort to rebrand it so the non acronym becomes the recognized name. If so, then we should respect that. If you want this changed... get the upstream project to revert back to using the GIMP as the name instead of the longer name in the desktop file. For all we know this is a deliberate attempt to rebrand by the upstream project.

Valent Turkovic escribió: > After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want > more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even > if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora > has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision... > > Cheers, > Valent. > > /disclaimer: The following comment is only a rant, disregard as easily, I had to get it out of my chest: While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU" brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU"

I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again... well... I got used to find this one by icon recently...

Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing.

How does somebody new to Linux know what "gimp" does?

Hi, previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" for a name in the menu? Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. Valent.

On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program". > > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > for a name in the menu? > > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program" > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing. This is how upstream does it and I'm very much inclined not to change that as this would mean that we would have to care for the translation of that string. Upstream might change it for 2.6 but defaults to leave it as it is unless somebody comes forward with compelling reasons to change it again. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp(a)redhat.com "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > So why don't you just put: > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > etc.... Everybody happy, right? Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for F10.

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:32 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote: > > > So why don't you just put: > > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)" > > > etc.... Everybody happy, right? > > > > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel > > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)". > > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which > > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a > > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for > > F10. > From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software > installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop > files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do > that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise. The bad thing is that this is often done by having "Name=Name GenericName" and having no GenericName instead of keeping those separate. We really should get that situation fixed for F10, i.e. so that the desktop files use Name, GenericName consistently (as per spec) and the desktop environments (i.e. panels e.a.) use these as per spec. > The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is > not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And > while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without > the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long > variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be, > perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape > Vector Graphics Editor"). I've just talked to upstream about this and they're not too happy about (ab)using the system with "Name=GIMP" and "GenericName=GNU Image Manipulation Program". Perhaps the spec should be extended to have an AbbreviatedName key, so gimp.desktop could have: ... AbbreviatedName=GIMP Name=GNU Image Manipulation Program GenericName=Image Manipulation Program Comment=Manipulate your images ... GenericName could even be left empty as it's a subset of Name. The menus could then have it (based on if the user prefers short or long names) like this: Name/AbbreviatedName (GenericName) or alternatively (if there is not GenericName) Name/AbbreviatedName and the comment as the tooltip of the menu entry. This would even work with legacy (Name and GenericName combined into Name) desktop files. > But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It > indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless > which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would > be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much > as possible. Yes. Nils