----- Original Message -----

Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current proposal:

Mission statement for Branding We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for Fedora Workstation. These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of its parts and over time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations and daily use.

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I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware that we are trying to be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to clearly show what we want to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then later talk implementation in light of this mission statement.

I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do instantly, nobody can. Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't see how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or Linux machine.

I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual identity. Here, you're delving into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable without a distinct visual identity.

----- Original Message -----

----- Original Message -----

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From: "Bastien Nocera" bnocera@redhat.com To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop" desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:44:44 AM Subject: Re: Branding Mission Statement - Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

----- Original Message -----

...

Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current proposal:

Mission statement for Branding We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for Fedora Workstation. These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of its parts and over time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations and daily use.

---

I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware that we are trying to be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to clearly show what we want to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then later talk implementation in light of this mission statement.

I'd remove the "instant recognizability". You can't do instantly, nobody can. Fullscreen applications are in control of what they display, and I don't see how you could recognise *instantly* a presentation made on a Windows or Linux machine.

Sure, I am open to removing or changing the word instant, on the other hand the mission statement is meant to convey general intent, not cover every possible implementation corner case, so the fact that there are corner cases where we would not be able to fulfil the wording of the mission statement isn't really a problem IMHO.

The mission statement is what you want to achieve. If what you want to achieve is impossible, how do we work towards an unachievable goal?

...

I also don't see why we'd need a distinct visual identity. Here, you're delving into implementation details. I think we can make Fedora recognisable without a distinct visual identity.

Not sure I would agree its implementation details, and I am not sure how you would make something recognisable without making it distinguishable?

Distinct means it's clearly different. Those car models aren't distinct: https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971d though they're recognisable (through their badges, accessories, specific colour schemes, etc.). An SUV and a sedan are distinct.

On Mon, Dec 05, 2016 at 09:52:05AM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:

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Distinct means it's clearly different. Those car models aren't distinct: https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971d though they're recognisable (through their badges, accessories, specific colour schemes, etc.). An SUV and a sedan are distinct.

Yeah, partly based on your feedback we decided to replace the word distinct with the word distinguishable, as distinct as you are pointing out can be understood to imply more radical changes than what we are looking for here.

I prefer "distinct", actually, in the full sense — for the car analogy, think of those Volkswagen commercials when they re-launched the Beetle. But in the interest of compromise I'm okay with distinguishable. Maybe, though, "clearly distinguishable" — not just distinguishable if you are an expert and know a trick.

Christian Schaller píše v Pá 02. 12. 2016 v 09:06 -0500:

Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current proposal:

Mission statement for Branding We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for Fedora Workstation.  These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of its parts and over  time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations and daily use.

---

I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware that we are trying to be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to clearly show what we want to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then later talk implementation in light of this mission statement.

Christian

I would also like to add that wherever we make UI text changes to improve recognizability of Fedora we should make sure those changes can be translated because it has not been the case with quite a few of our downstream patches we've made. Otherwise it does more harm than good. I read one review of Fedora 25 and the reviewer complained about Fedora Workstation not being fully translated just because of one untranslated string ('OS Type') in the Settings/Details. There are not many of them, but apparently even one can ruin the impression.

Jiri

----- Original Message -----

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From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com To: desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 6:41:37 PM Subject: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

**NOTE** We will move our meeting to 9:00am US Eastern time (that's   1400 UTC) Monday, 2016-Dec-05.

Below are current agenda items I know about.  Corrections and additions are welcome; please send them by Sunday evening.  In the future I plan to get this agenda out on Wednesday evening before the meeting, with agenda items due by Friday night.

• Branding -- cschaller
  • Christian was to have a proposal ready to walk the WG through

and start gathering input.  Does this exist yet on the wiki?

• coredumpctl -- mcatanzaro
  • Michael did a Change page for F26. Let's make sure we know

what   the next steps are so it gets picked up by the wrangler/FESCo, and plan developer contact as needed.

-- Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields. org/   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717   http://redhat.com/%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0-%C2%A0%C2%A0-%C2%A0%C2%A0-%C2%A0%C2%A0-... g/     The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com _______________________________________________ desktop mailing list -- desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave@lists.fedoraproject.o rg

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desktop mailing list -- desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org

Bastien Nocera píše v St 28. 12. 2016 v 04:46 -0500:

----- Original Message -----

...

Christian Schaller píše v Pá 02. 12. 2016 v 09:06 -0500:

...

Hi, so I haven't put anything on the wiki yet, but here is my current proposal:

Mission statement for Branding We want to use branding elements in our desktop to create a distinct visual identity for Fedora Workstation. These branding elements should signal that Fedora Workstation is more than just a sum of its parts and over time develop instant recognizability of Fedora Workstation in screenshots, presentations and daily use.

---

I be happy for input and improvement suggestions from the community on this. Be aware that we are trying to be systematic about this, so lets do this step by step. This statement is meant to clearly show what we want to achieve with our branding, so it avoids talking about implementation. We will then later talk implementation in light of this mission statement.

Christian

I would also like to add that wherever we make UI text changes to improve recognizability of Fedora we should make sure those changes can be translated because it has not been the case with quite a few of our downstream patches we've made. Otherwise it does more harm than good. I read one review of Fedora 25 and the reviewer complained about Fedora Workstation not being fully translated just because of one untranslated  string ('OS Type') in the Settings/Details. There are not many of them, but apparently even one can ruin the impression.

Downstream patches (in Fedora) usually don't get translated.

Yeah, that's what I've noticed... I just hope that any solution to the special Fedora Workstation branding will take this into account because it definitely harms the impression and looks unprofessional.

Jiri

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 07:48:41AM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

I think someone was planning to upstream this change (Bastien, or Matthias)? There's no reason it has to stay downstream. The only Fedora-specific parts are our name and logo which can be settings.

And which should not be translated (including "Fedora Workstation", even though Workstation is an English word).

On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 17:03 +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

That's misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to store the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or something along those lines would be better.

OK, I revised the change page to reflect this.

...

rather than created in the crashing process's current working directory by ABRT

Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp?

If you set ulimit it creates the core dumps in cwd. At least it did in F23; it's probably broken in F24 due to SELinux or systemd or something or other, but creating core dumps in cwd is definitely the previous and intended Fedora behavior.

...

Notably, crash-time stacktraces will no longer be available

Can you explain this a bit more? systemd-coredump generates stack traces at crash time. Is something missing from them?

I do not know. It's not essential for the change page, so I'll just remove it for now, unless somebody else chimes in.

...

Developers who prefer to manually work with core dumps will still be able to revert to the previous behavior.

Previous behaviour would be abrt handling core dumps.

Yup, or you can revert to traditional Linux behavior too... choice etc.

...

Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() { ((void(*)())0)(); }"),

That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$' works just as well.

Yeah, that's better indeed.

Michael

" ---------- Původní zpráva ---------- Od: Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org Komu: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <desktop@lists. fedoraproject.org> Datum: 5. 12. 2016 18:51:18 Předmět: Re: Workstation WG call for agenda 2016-Dec-05

"On Mon, 2016-12-05 at 17:03 +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

That's misleading. Current behaviour of systemd-coredump is to store the metadata in the journal, and the coredump on disk. Storing it in the journal was rather inefficient, and we backed away from this. I think saying "Core dumps will be processed by systemd-coredump and information about core dumps will be stored in the journal" or something along those lines would be better.

OK, I revised the change page to reflect this.

...

rather than created in the crashing process's current working directory by ABRT

Doesn't abrt store the coredumps in /var/tmp?

If you set ulimit it creates the core dumps in cwd. At least it did in F23; it's probably broken in F24 due to SELinux or systemd or something or other, but creating core dumps in cwd is definitely the previous and intended Fedora behavior."

ABRT stores the core dump files in /var/spool/abrt and starting with systemd -229, ABRT does

not create the core dump files in CWD because RLIMIT_CORE (ulimit -c) is unlimited by default:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/NEWS#L895 (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/NEWS#L895)

"

...

Notably, crash-time stacktraces will no longer be available

Can you explain this a bit more? systemd-coredump generates stack traces at crash time. Is something missing from them?

I do not know. It's not essential for the change page, so I'll just remove it for now, unless somebody else chimes in."

ABRT creates stack trace from the dying process rather than from its core dump file.

This approach produces more reliable traces because possibly removed libraries are still

available in memory. It has the benefit that users can turn off saving core dump files

to disk. This feature has been requested by developers of applications consuming enormous

amounts of memory.

"

...

Developers who prefer to manually work with core dumps will still be able to revert to the previous behavior.

Previous behaviour would be abrt handling core dumps.

Yup, or you can revert to traditional Linux behavior too... choice etc."

Reverting to traditional Linux behavior is a bit challenge with systemd setting RLIMIT_CORE to unlimited.

One must not forget to tell systemd to leave RLIMIT_CORE=0.

"

...

Write some program that crashes (e.g. "int main() { ((void(*)())0)(); }"),

That's too much work ;) bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$' works just as well.

Yeah, that's better indeed. "

Regards,

Jakub  "