I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.
You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
I personally think it's definitely better than default. I'm sure it can be improved in many ways, but this was my first GS extension ever and I'm really lame, so bear with me (patches welcome). The source code is here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z
How to try out: 1. boot F17 Beta RC2 Live 2. extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/ 3. restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r) 4. install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension
Future steps if people like it: a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it
Comments welcome.
Thanks, Kamil
On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
How about "Install Fedora" since it could be installed to SSD or iSCSI etc.
I personally think it's definitely better than default.
The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.)
The present behavior is obscure, especially for new users. And the install icon in the activities drawer, or whatever it's called, doesn't have any text description unless the user mouses over.
It's like the installer is an easter egg that the user has to go on a hunt for, and hopefully find it before it rots.
Chris Murphy
On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
How about "Install Fedora" since it could be installed to SSD or iSCSI etc.
I pull that string from default anaconda launcher. If they change it, it will change also in the button. I proposed it here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=809499
The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.)
The present behavior is obscure, especially for new users. And the install icon in the activities drawer, or whatever it's called,
"Dash"
doesn't have any text description unless the user mouses over.
It's like the installer is an easter egg that the user has to go on a hunt for, and hopefully find it before it rots.
Right, that's exactly what annoyed me.
Of course other approaches are possible. I could force Shell to display desktop icons and put the launcher there. But then the livecd environment would be substantially different from installed environment and that's a bad approach. The install button can also be put into the user menu in the upper right corner, it's just not as visible there. Overall the button on the top bar was easy enough to implement and also the best idea I was able to come up with.
Chris Murphy wrote:
The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.)
I agree with that. KDE upstream recently also dropped the default folder view from their default Plasma setup, we (KDE SIG) decided to readd it through our kde-settings package, and in fact this exact issue (the liveinst shortcut on the live CD) was the main reason we did that. (The folder view comes up empty by default after installing the live CD, because there's nothing else in the Desktop folder by default.)
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:26 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.
You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
I personally think it's definitely better than default. I'm sure it can be improved in many ways, but this was my first GS extension ever and I'm really lame, so bear with me (patches welcome). The source code is here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z
How to try out:
- boot F17 Beta RC2 Live
- extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/
- restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r)
- install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension
Future steps if people like it: a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default experience.
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default experience.
Can't be 100% default, because installer is a slightly different use case, isn't it.
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
If you try to close anaconda, it shuts down the whole machine. A lot of users could assume that they just can't use the livecd environment for standard work, to try it out. Also if you start an application fullscreen, it's not really obvious that don't have to use it. If you don't know Gnome Shell and don't click on the top bar, you won't even know you're in a livecd environment.
I think some adjustments are necessary.
I wonder, have you looked at Ubuntu? First of all, there are two separate menu items in the CD boot menu, "Try without installing" and "Install ubuntu". Second, if you don't choose any item, this is what you get after boot: http://i.imgur.com/I26vS.png
"Try Ubuntu" will run the default livecd environment, "Install Ubuntu" will run the installer in fullscreen mode. That seems like great usability solution to me.
Not that I would require the same for Fedora. It would be nice, yes, but my small button is definitely easier to implement and serves the purpose as well, I believe.
On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default experience.
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
Is it a default experience to autostart apps?
If I'm using the LiveCD for troubleshooting, from actual media, do I really want to persistently experience the additional delays resulting from 2-3 minutes of lag while autostarting an installer I have no intention of using?
Doesn't this seem like additional hostility to mask over prior user hostile UI? I think the original premise is what needs to be challenged here.
Chris Murphy
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 11:30 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two:
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
And then, there is a secondary use where you want to review or test without the intention to keep a permanent install.
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:44 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
How about two user logins listed? One is a user named "Install Fedora" which autostarts the installer, and "Live User" does not. That's discoverable and concise. Even the checkbox idea is not nearly as discoverable, nor is it concise.
On 4/3/12 9:44 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora". Hell, could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app itself can be dismissed. So basically every time you boot and log into a live CD you get a popup offering you the ability to install, that can be easily dismissed.
Thoughts?
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Jesse Keating jkeating@j2solutions.net wrote:
On 4/3/12 9:44 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora". Hell, could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app itself can be dismissed. So basically every time you boot and log into a live CD you get a popup offering you the ability to install, that can be easily dismissed.
For sure, two buttons, the evaluate one closes the window. Otherwise we'll have 20,000 BZs filed saying "the livecd makes me install to the hard drive!" :)
-J
Thoughts?
-- Help me fight child abuse: http://tinyurl.com/jlkcourage
- jlk
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Jesse Keating jkeating@j2solutions.net wrote:
On 4/3/12 9:44 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora". Hell, could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app itself can be dismissed. So basically every time you boot and log into a live CD you get a popup offering you the ability to install, that can be easily dismissed.
Thoughts?
As someone who often uses live media but who almost never uses it to install Fedora this would be extremely annoying compared to just booting to the live media and having some obvious way to do an installation if that is what the user wants to do without repeatedly bothering those who don't.
My experience may not be ordinary, but I really think the "install from live media" use case isn't all that common compared to other uses of live media. I could be wrong, I certainly know people who do install from the live media as well.
From the options I've seen put on the table so far I would lean toward
either the original "just make it easy somehow to do it from the desktop" or having it be an optional boot choice that is not the default but that has an obvious label. Making it simple to do and making it not a bother to those who don't want to install Fedora from the live media would be a win for all use cases I think.
John
On 04/03/2012 11:36 AM, inode0 wrote:
As someone who often uses live media but who almost never uses it to install Fedora this would be extremely annoying compared to just booting to the live media and having some obvious way to do an installation if that is what the user wants to do without repeatedly bothering those who don't.
My experience may not be ordinary, but I really think the "install from live media" use case isn't all that common compared to other uses of live media. I could be wrong, I certainly know people who do install from the live media as well.
From the options I've seen put on the table so far I would lean toward either the original "just make it easy somehow to do it from the desktop" or having it be an optional boot choice that is not the default but that has an obvious label. Making it simple to do and making it not a bother to those who don't want to install Fedora from the live media would be a win for all use cases I think.
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathanael@gnat.ca wrote:
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point?
-jef
On Apr 3, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Jef Spaleta wrote:
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed.
Eminently plausible.
Chris Murphy
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed.
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.
However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel?
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Kamil Paral kparal@redhat.com wrote:
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.
However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel?
I believe its adequately provides a solution to meet all constraints so far expressed in this discussion.
1) Notice on login with buttons! 2) Automatically hides itself after a few seconds and gets the hell out of the way if you don't want to do an install and really do want to use this live environment. 3) Does not change the delivered UI by adding a new static element that is Fedora install specific. 4) Available in the overview as a reminder until dismissed..allowing for delayed install action.
This makes the install bubble equivalent UI to the current selinux avc notices. They pop up (on login) you can either deal with them or not.
The reality is Gnome 3 is trying very very hard to remove the swamp that was the notification tray along the top bar. Good or bad, right or wrong, that is clearly one of the design goals. The button in the top panel works directly against that goal. So instead of digging our heels into an implementation that is clearly not aligned with upstream design decisions, lets find something that works and meets the constraints. I'm not going to bash my head against the brickwall supporting an implementation that is out of step with the over all design in what has become a design led UI.
-jef
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.
However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel?
I believe its adequately provides a solution to meet all constraints so far expressed in this discussion.
- Notice on login with buttons!
- Automatically hides itself after a few seconds and gets the hell
out of the way if you don't want to do an install and really do want to use this live environment. 3) Does not change the delivered UI by adding a new static element that is Fedora install specific. 4) Available in the overview as a reminder until dismissed..allowing for delayed install action.
Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it?
If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again.
Design-led software is a nice thing, but up to certain point. Designers did not envision this use case and did not offer any solution. And I'm not surprised. It's a one-time process, so it has to be one-time tweaked.
On Apr 4, 2012, at 1:35 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it?
If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again.
Persistance is a very good attribute. Imagine someone plays with the LiveCD, they like it, they play more, like it more, now they want to install - but do we really want them having to reboot to get the notification/message again so they know where to go find the easter egg installer?? Nooo... better have it in a consistent location.
In fact, I'd advise both notification/message as well as the persistent menu bar installer option. We are talking about a significant minority of Windows and Mac OS (and maybe some other linux distro) users here. Be inviting.
Chris Murphy
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathanael@gnat.ca wrote:
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point
The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise.
The discussion died off, so I'll sum it up:
* Almost everyone agreed that current situation is highly unsatisfactory.
* We have several ideas how to remedy it, which include: top bar button, notification and welcome screen.
* We have just a single implementation, which is the top bar button.
Since ideas are cheap and implementations are expensive, I'm going to try to push the current implementation to the default LiveCD desktop. If another implementation appears and is considered superior to the first one, let's replace it. But I want to have at least some solution ready for F17 Final. It might not be the best one, but it's better than having nothing at all.
I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.
If you have better ideas how to proceed, please let me know.
Thanks, Kamil
On Apr 6, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.
I understand anaconda is the installer. But doesn't the livecd-tools / livecd-creator group determine the tools and Ux for the LiveCD? Maybe they should be lobbied?
In any event, I agree with the three bullet points. And until better ideas that also have initial implementations to work with, running with the top bar / menu bar option is OK. It'd be nice to get some traction on bug 809499.
Chris Murphy
On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 12:21:32 -0600, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Apr 6, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.
I understand anaconda is the installer. But doesn't the livecd-tools / livecd-creator group determine the tools and Ux for the LiveCD? Maybe they should be lobbied?
This would really be under the purview of the Desktop team.
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathanael@gnat.ca wrote:
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point
The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise.
Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling.
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things?
Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awilliam@redhat.com said:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.
At that point, what's the point of combining netinst and live? Remove the install-from-live support and have live images as just live images.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awilliam@redhat.com said:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.
Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".
Once upon a time, drago01 drago01@gmail.com said:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.
Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".
Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live boot would be irritating (to say the least).
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, drago01 drago01@gmail.com said:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.
Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".
Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live boot would be irritating (to say the least).
Well it is not like you download it daily so ...
Once upon a time, drago01 drago01@gmail.com said:
Well it is not like you download it daily so ...
That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise unrelated things (live and install) into one image (if that is indeed the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet).
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, drago01 drago01@gmail.com said:
Well it is not like you download it daily so ...
That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise unrelated things (live and install)
Obviously they aren't that unrelated otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion ;)
into one image (if that is indeed the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet).
I am just saying we shouldn't limit the user experience by the size of an obsolete medium i.e "it does not fit on a CD" should not be a blocker for anything IMO.
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 13:55 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Adam Williamson awilliam@redhat.com said:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.
Why? I don't see any obvious technical reason why it couldn't still simply dump the live image onto the hard disk, as it (more or less) does at present. If anything it'd be easier, because the image it was trying to dump wouldn't be...the running environment. :)
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 07:51:05PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
There's more than one of us I think :)
Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things?
Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their install.s
The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path.
Brian C. Lane (bcl@redhat.com) said:
Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their install.s
The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path.
If anaconda's already using a custom systemd target, what prevents also shipping that target on the live image and booting to it?
Bill
Dne 17.4.2012 20:51, Adam Williamson napsal(a):
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Nobletnathanael@gnat.ca wrote:
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point
The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise.
Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling.
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Actually that is exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see. I'd like to be able to run Anaconda from my F16 and install F17 on different partition for example. Why should I download some installation medium when I have already running system which is capable to run Anaconda?
Vit
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.
I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here:
https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 05:20 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.
No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification.
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification.
All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button. Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking / suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case.
-Cam
On Apr 19, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification.
All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button. Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking / suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case.
In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install? That's user hostile, in my book. The notification would be nice, although perhaps superfluous, in addition to the button. But it's inadequate in lieu of the button.
Chris Murphy
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.comwrote:
In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install?
Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user.
Regards, Florian
On Apr 19, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Florian Müllner wrote:
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote: In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install?
Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user.
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.
Chris Murphy
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.
To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. As an extra win, it only needs 30 lines of code, compared to Kamils 60.
Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17.
Matthias
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.
To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached.
I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order):
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?
Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17.
As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french.
"resistance is futile" On Apr 20, 2012 8:49 AM, "Kamil Paral" kparal@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.
To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached.
I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order):
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?
Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17.
As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Hey,
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Kamil Paral kparal@redhat.com wrote:
I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended?
No, it should be shown in "banner mode" like in http://imgur.com/Gk1Az(that%27s a screenshot of running the unmodified program here).
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We
would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that).
After the notification pops down (either due to a timeout or because the users dismisses it explicitly) the message tray ("translucent black bar at the bottom holding notification icons") is shown for a moment to indicate that that's where the notification went.
Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about
other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?
Only for the duration the notification is actively shown (as in my screenshot), which is about two seconds if I recall correctly.
Regards, Florian
Kamil Paral píše v Pá 20. 04. 2012 v 03:49 -0400:
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.
To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached.
I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order):
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?
So if I understand it correctly instead of having an icon in the dash we have the same icon, but smaller, in the systray where it is hidden even more. Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution? The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it. Users familiar with the concept of GNOME 3 might get a clue and look for it in the systray, but I think we're not fixing this problem for them. We're fixing it for those who are rather new to Fedora and GNOME 3.
Jiri
On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, "Jiri Eischmann" eischmann@redhat.com wrote:
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it.
The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...
Regards, Florian
Florian Müllner píše v Pá 20. 04. 2012 v 12:27 +0200:
On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, "Jiri Eischmann" eischmann@redhat.com wrote:
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says
the
live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out
how
to install it.
The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...
Is the notification gonna persist for the whole session? If not the button is not very helpful. I think the people, for whom Kamil wants to fix this, won't install Fedora right away, they will want to play with it and explore for a while. Meanwhile the notification will disappear and the problem will come back again: where to start the installation process?
I just wanted to say that the icon in the systray is even less likely to be discovered that the icon in the dash. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will just reboot to get the notification they saw at the beginning of the session which is more or less our failure to fix this issue.
Jiri
On 04/20/2012 07:27 AM, Florian Müllner wrote:
On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, "Jiri Eischmann" <eischmann@redhat.com mailto:eischmann@redhat.com> wrote:
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how to install it.
The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...
Regards, Florian
For users like you and me it's ok, no problem to find the button in the notification, because we already know where it is... but for a user that never used Gnome 3 before, the notification will be hidden in the bottom panel, which is hidden from the user and is hard to discover, unless you already know that you must go with the mouse to the very right bottom corner of the screen.
Germán.
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel.
On 04/20/2012 09:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel.
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
* The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating.
* Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.
* Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue, because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.
****
Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?
~tom
== Fedora Project
Dne 20.4.2012 16:04, Tom Callaway napsal(a):
On 04/20/2012 09:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel.
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
- The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
- The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too
intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating.
- Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because
there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.
- Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue,
because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.
Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?
~tom
== Fedora Project
What about something on GDM level? There would be something like "live" user, which would run just the live image and "install" user which would run the anaconda immediately? Or something along the way, not sure if that is feasible (although I personally prefer the tray notification).
Vit
On Apr 20, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Vít Ondruch wrote:
What about something on GDM level? There would be something like "live" user, which would run just the live image and "install" user which would run the anaconda immediately?
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-April/165275.html
Chris Murphy
Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) said:
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
- The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile and the action item.
Bill
On 04/20/2012 12:08 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) said:
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
- The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile and the action item.
Bill
$ python install.py TypeError: install_cb() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
"Germán A. Racca" (german.racca@gmail.com) said:
On 04/20/2012 12:08 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Tom Callaway (tcallawa@redhat.com) said:
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
- The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile and the action item.
Bill
$ python install.py TypeError: install_cb() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
Change "def install_cb(n, action):" to "def install_cb(n, action, data):"
Sorry about that, Bill
There seems to be at least some consensus that:
- The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
- The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is
too intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is demonstrating.
- Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because
there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.
- Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue,
because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the same difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.
Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?
~tom
The discussion has died. I have lost any hope that it could lead to a positive output, so I'll not push any more. The desktop SIG expressed clear and utter "NO".
For the last two Fedora releases new Fedora users have been having a hard time to locate the installer. It seems to be clear that nothing will change in Fedora 17. I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like, but they don't push on any other solutions. I also find it sad how strong their rejection is even though the overwhelming majority of other respondents like it.
I'll keep the source code on github [1]. Maybe it will be useful for someone else, some time, e.g. for some Fedora spin or for a different Linux distribution. If anybody wants to continue in pushing this, and explaining better to desktop SIG, you're welcome.
Hi Kamil,
On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 09:22 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
but they don't push on any other solutions.
A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_...
? To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for their "try before you buy" ability, not necessarily to install to disk right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here.
What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD? I understand that there are technical reasons why the extension is frowned upon -- but that shouldn't mean that we do nothing to try to improve the situation. I tried not to complain too loudly while I was the FPL, especially because GNOME Shell was new and had plenty of other things to focus on. Now that it's a bit more mature, I'd really like to come up with a better solution here.
-- Jared Smith
On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here.
What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD?
How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing
If we install this via RPM, this will result in two extra RPMs on the installed system (gnome-shell-extension-common and -dock) -- but if installed locally (via extensions.gnome.org) it'll be contained within liveuser.
Regards,
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 12:50 +0700, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here.
What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD?
How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing
I don't see the point of making proposals like this which it's quite clear have absolutely no chance of happening. Desktop team has already stated clearly that they won't set up extensions as default configuration. Continuing to 'suggest' that they do is only likely to rile them up and start another of those long boring argumentative threads that have no purpose...
Perhaps he was just not aware of these objections. Although I could not speak for him but it's at least a possible explanation for the proposal.
Johannes
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Adam Williamson awilliam@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 12:50 +0700, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
On 04/27/2012 08:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org
wrote:
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let perfect get in the way of better here.
What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD?
How about installing the Dock extension on the liveuser account, and configuring it to *not* auto-hide? That way we get a solution that a) many users use anyway b) is aesthetically pleasing
I don't see the point of making proposals like this which it's quite clear have absolutely no chance of happening. Desktop team has already stated clearly that they won't set up extensions as default configuration. Continuing to 'suggest' that they do is only likely to rile them up and start another of those long boring argumentative threads that have no purpose... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On 04/27/2012 09:58 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD?
It seems to me that the main objection against a prominent 'install to disk' button is that it is not part of a normal desktop workflow---if someone would just routinely use a Live CD, it seems rude to show them an irrelevant 'install' button.
A good time and place to offer an 'install' option might be on startup (e.g. via a notification popup), and on shutdown (by an 'install' menu option next to 'reboot', and by another popup notifification 'you are about to shut down the system; do you want to permanently install to disk?')
On May 8, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
It seems to me that the main objection against a prominent 'install to disk' button is that it is not part of a normal desktop workflow---if someone would just routinely use a Live CD, it seems rude to show them an irrelevant 'install' button.
I agree, but I'm willing to let it go for F17. The one complaint I still have is that the window is really huge. I mean, it's taking up, what, 80% of the desktop real estate?
A good time and place to offer an 'install' option might be on startup (e.g. via a notification popup), and on shutdown (by an 'install' menu option next to 'reboot', and by another popup notifification 'you are about to shut down the system; do you want to permanently install to disk?')
I dunno. I think if there are concerns by the anaconda team about the machine state for running from within a live session, that state is even less known on shutdown than on startup. I'd sooner encourage a reboot. Another reason why I prefer the options: Live vs Install, at either bootloader menu or login.
Chris Murphy
The one complaint I still have is that the window is really huge. I mean, it's taking up, what, 80% of the desktop real estate?
That is just perfect, it's the welcome screen. It should receive complete attention. In Ubuntu there are even no panels/widgets shown until you make the selection.
On May 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
That is just perfect, it's the welcome screen. It should receive complete attention. In Ubuntu there are even no panels/widgets shown until you make the selection.
Well I find it intrusive rather than welcoming, but this is not a hill I'm going to die on.
Chris Murphy
but they don't push on any other solutions.
A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_...
?
I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it. Maybe I'm just blind. There's a small link for full installation guide, but I see no link for quick start guide, and no link for the page you posted.
Something tells me that if I have never seen it, and couldn't find it even when looking for it, that 99% of new users won't see it as well.
But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...
No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel).
I don't mean to haggle about it anymore. Just clearing up misconceptions.
On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 10:26 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
but they don't push on any other solutions.
A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_...
?
I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it.
That was my point - it doesn't exist yet as far as I know, but is an option to improve the situation.
No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel).
OK.
On 04/27/2012 10:50 AM, Colin Walters wrote:
Hi Kamil,
On Fri, 2012-04-27 at 09:22 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
but they don't push on any other solutions.
A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly to http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_...
?
+1
It would be nice if this links is in the get-fedora page.
All the best, Germán.
To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for their "try before you buy" ability, not necessarily to install to disk right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.
Kamil Paral (kparal@redhat.com) said:
I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like, but they don't push on any other solutions.
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.
Bill
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.
Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide?
-- Jared Smith
On Apr 27, 2012 11:34 PM, "Jared K. Smith" jsmith@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide?
It was implemented only in the sense that code was written and posted to this list for discussion.
Florian
On 04/28/2012 12:33 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.
Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide?
I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01
This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png
"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification.
On 05/01/2012 02:55 PM, Kalev Lember wrote:
On 04/28/2012 12:33 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.
Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or was it implemented only for rawhide?
I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01
This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png
"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification.
Excellent thanks!
A slight rewording suggestion, especially since "hard disks" are being rapidly replaced.
"You are currently using an uninstalled live image. You can try it out directly or install to your system."
cheers, Pádraig.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com wrote:
I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose for both F17 and rawhide:
Cool, thanks.
This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD: http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png
"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black notification box dismisses the notification.
I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. In particular, the section that says "If you want to keep using Fedora" is ambiguous, as you could keep using Fedora from the live media without installing it. Might I suggest the following text instead:
You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora to your hard drive, click the button below or the "Install to Hard Drive" option in the activities menu.
-- Jared Smith
On May 1, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora to your hard drive, click the button below or the "Install to Hard Drive" option in the activities menu.
You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora, click Install, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities menu.
On 05/01/2012 07:25 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. /.../
Pádraig, Jared, Chris:
Thanks for the suggestions, I think these are definitely an improvement over the original text. I'll reply with in line comments regarding Chris's wording below.
I'm not a native speaker, so please correct me if you can.
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
This is nice, better than the original "an uninstalled live image" -- I guess "uninstalled" is a term that developers are used to, but doesn't make a lot of sense for end users.
On 05/01/2012 07:43 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
To install Fedora, click Install, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities menu.
I agree that it's a good idea to explain how to find the Anaconda icon. (I'll have to nitpick here and say that the correct term is "Activities overview", which has a list of favorite applications in the "Dash".)
Also note that this notification is going to be displayed in the fallback mode as well, so if we go with explaining how to find the Anaconda icon, we are likely to need two separate texts.
I don't think it's good style to spell out what the controls on the notification do -- "To install Fedora, click Install". This sounds more like an user's manual, not something we should be displaying as the most prominent text that the user will see. In my opinion, the text should talk about user's actions, but not how to use the controls in the dialog box.
How about this as the main text: You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.
and this for the fallback mode: You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the System Tools menu at any later time.
On 05/02/2012 08:47 PM, Kalev Lember wrote:
On 05/01/2012 07:25 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the notification. /.../
Pádraig, Jared, Chris:
Thanks for the suggestions
How about this as the main text:
You are currently running Fedora from live media. If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.
"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.
You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.
I'm happy with any of the subsequent suggestions, so feel free to commit without further input from me anyway.
cheers, Pádraig.
On 05/02/2012 03:59 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote:
"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.
You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.
I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far.
~tom
== Fedora Project
On May 2, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Tom Callaway wrote:
On 05/02/2012 03:59 PM, Pádraig Brady wrote:
"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.
You are currently running Fedora from live media. You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.
I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far.
Yes, however given the context the word "may" should be used instead of "can". i.e. it is possible to install Fedora now.
I'd also suggest merely indefinite article "a" instead of "any". Simper for translation. And "any" doesn't contribute anything so I'd call it wordy.
Chris Murphy
I'd also suggest merely indefinite article "a" instead of "any". Simper for translation.
How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get it into spin-kickstarts? Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release?
On 05/03/2012 11:05 PM, Kamil Paral wrote:
How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get it into spin-kickstarts?
Ideally, I think the welcome screen code should be in anaconda repo and would be translated in there. But I haven't yet talked to the anaconda people about this.
Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release?
Perhaps we can. Not sure if there's enough time for that.
What's the use case for translations? I'll note that there's no way to select the language in the GDM login screen, so everyone using the official media will see the untranslated welcome screen at least once, before they manage to change the language in system settings.
Do we spin any localized live media? There are kickstart files for this in spin-kickstarts repo, are they actually used?
Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release?
Perhaps we can. Not sure if there's enough time for that.
What's the use case for translations? I'll note that there's no way to select the language in the GDM login screen, so everyone using the official media will see the untranslated welcome screen at least once, before they manage to change the language in system settings.
Do we spin any localized live media? There are kickstart files for this in spin-kickstarts repo, are they actually used?
Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all.
It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all?
Kamil Paral (kparal@redhat.com) said:
Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all.
It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all?
They're in the l10n subdir of spin-kickstarts - each of those has a particular language hardcoded.
Bill
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all.
It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all?
We don't ship any as official releases. We used to run gdm with a timeout on live images expressly so people could pick a non-English language before logging in. Then gdm lost the ability to set language and so there was no way to do it any more.
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 17:06 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Good call. I thought people could choose language in the isolinux menu before boot. They can't. So maybe we don't need any translations at all.
It's weird though. Do we really have no localized livecds at all?
We don't ship any as official releases. We used to run gdm with a timeout on live images expressly so people could pick a non-English language before logging in. Then gdm lost the ability to set language and so there was no way to do it any more.
We may bring the language selection back for f18, in a different form - the idea is to run this new 'try-or-install?' window before the actual liveuser session gets started. Then we can select the language there.
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
On 05/03/2012 11:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. [...] What do you think?
This is really great: nice, clean, and professional-looking.
Thanks Cosimo!
On 05/03/2012 05:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
Loved it!
Thanks and congratulations :)
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
Yeah, this looks really well done. Shall we pull it into the anaconda git tree for F17?
- Chris
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 04:44:42PM -0400, Chris Lumens wrote:
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
Yeah, this looks really well done. Shall we pull it into the anaconda git tree for F17?
One additional touch of polish: is it possible to detect if we are running from live CD or live USB and present left icon accordingly?
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 22:47 +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
One additional touch of polish: is it possible to detect if we are running from live CD or live USB and present left icon accordingly?
Had the same idea while writing the code yesterday, but ran out of steam before thinking of a smart way to detect this...suggestions welcome.
Cosimo
Hi,
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Cosimo Cecchi cosimoc@gnome.org wrote:
What do you think?
Looking I see this:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop'); if (!anacondaApp) anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop. Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by default.
--Ray
Hey,
On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:15 -0400, Ray Strode wrote:
Looking I see this:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop'); if (!anacondaApp) anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop. Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by default.
Yeah good point - I copied that code from Kalev's notification, but it seems /usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop is not provided by any package in my F17, so I now just removed it.
Cosimo
Hey again,
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Cosimo Cecchi cosimoc@gnome.org wrote:
// provided by the 'anaconda' package anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('anaconda.desktop'); if (!anacondaApp) anacondaApp = Gio.DesktopAppInfo.new('liveinst.desktop');
I think you only want liveinst.desktop and not anaconda.desktop. Minimally, you need to swap them so liveinst.desktop gets run by default.
Yeah good point - I copied that code from Kalev's notification, but it seems /usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop is not provided by any package in my F17, so I now just removed it.
Sorry to give you bad advice, I was totally wrong.
We do this in the kickstart file:
mv /usr/share/applications/liveinst.desktop /usr/share/applications/anaconda.desktop
I believe we do that so the WM_CLASS matches.
My misguided messages was because I was worried anaconda was getting run instead of /usr/sbin/liveinst
--Ray
Dne 3.5.2012 22:22, Cosimo Cecchi napsal(a):
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
Please note that there was some resistance against proposals like this ([1] just for example). I prefer the notification.
Vit
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-April/165280.html
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot better than a notification. Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1]. Screenshots can be found here [2] [3]. I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office, and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the proposed notification for F17. The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome [2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png [3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png
Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way.
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:31 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way.
Okay, I added support for this in git now.
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:31 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please make sure the whole window can be closed easily just by pressing the Escape key? That will help really help those of us who run LiveCDs many times per day, and it will not hurt other people in any way.
Okay, I added support for this in git now.
Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on "Try Fedora"?
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on "Try Fedora"?
I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now.
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome/commit/37856334485c6bd1a6fdfd830ae...
Cosimo
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on "Try Fedora"?
I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now.
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome/commit/37856334485c6bd1a6fdfd830ae...
Cosimo
You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6.
Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice.
On 05/16/2012 03:48 PM, Kamil Paral wrote:
On 05/09/2012 09:34 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on "Try Fedora"?
I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now.
You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6.
Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice.
We've been in the Final freeze starting from 2012-05-07; only fixes to bugs that are release blockers (or NTH fixes) can get included in the final media.
Kamil, if you want this included, I'd say you would have to first convince QA that this is worth pulling in through the freezes.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/17/Schedule
On Wed, 2012-05-16 at 17:04 +0300, Kalev Lember wrote:
On 05/16/2012 03:48 PM, Kamil Paral wrote:
On 05/09/2012 09:34 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 04:51 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
Cosimo, can you please also make sure that the Close button gets keyboard focus automatically after I click on "Try Fedora"?
I now fixed this here [1], but it will need to be applied to the copy of that code that lives in anaconda now.
You haven't posted that to anaconda I guess? Because it's not fixed in F17 TC6.
Does it make sense to keep the code on github? Using anaconda repo as an upstream might be a better choice.
We've been in the Final freeze starting from 2012-05-07; only fixes to bugs that are release blockers (or NTH fixes) can get included in the final media.
Kamil, if you want this included, I'd say you would have to first convince QA that this is worth pulling in through the freezes.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/17/Schedule
Kamil IS QA. (In the movie, coming this summer...)
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
Negative.
On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:52 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself between the system status and the clock on the top panel.
Exhibit A: Notification doesn't have translations. It is also not persistently discoverable.
Exhibit B: The button/extension inherits translation, it is persistently discoverable.
Exhibit C: Autostarting the installer on a LiveCD is user hostile, totally untenable. Put such a Live CD into a flaming bag of dog crap, with optional sparklers for further effect.
Exhibit D: A regular window will be closed by the user, and now where is the installer? Not persistently discoverable.
Exhibit E: The basic shell design is asinine and indefensible. A Desktop folder, contents of which do not show up on the desktop. That's what started this problem, for which there was previously quite a universally accepted means of persistent discoverability of the installer icon.
If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop.
Chris Murphy
Chris Murphy wrote:
If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop.
+1
On the KDE spin, we explicitly kept desktop icons enabled (in the form of the Plasma folder view widget) exactly because of this usecase. Why can't the GNOME spin follow suit?
Kevin Kofler
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:52:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 11:55 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a 'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the notification is a fantastic solution.
That isn't a good solution for people who normally use live images for stuff other than installing, as it will bug them every time they use the image. Though a possible compromise here is to only do that on the desktop image and not any of the other images that derive from desktop.
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.
I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here:
https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.
Posted: https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2012-April/msg00212.html
But they still must accept it.
On 04/18/2012 06:20 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.
I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here:
https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?
I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here:
https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?
This has already been raised in anaconda-devel. I have updated the screenshot to make it clear the left side is already taken by application menu. If you still know where you would like to see it, please modify the picture and indicate the correct location, thanks.
On Apr 19, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Germán A. Racca wrote:
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?
It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable.
I think the name is a bigger problem than the location, and needs to be altered, however. I separately mentioned this on the anaconda list but basically, the two solutions:
"Launch Fedora Installer" is more correct.
"Install Fedora . . . " is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction.
Chris Murphy
On 04/19/2012 06:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Apr 19, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Germán A. Racca wrote:
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?
It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable.
I think the name is a bigger problem than the location, and needs to be altered, however. I separately mentioned this on the anaconda list but basically, the two solutions:
"Launch Fedora Installer" is more correct.
"Install Fedora . . . " is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction.
Chris Murphy
Forget it. The screenshot clarified all my doubts :)
I also vote for a different name in the button, but not sure which one. Both mentioned here seem more reasonable.
Germán.
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 10:04 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 09:55 -0800, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nathanael D. Noblet nathanael@gnat.ca wrote:
How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full install..and then the message lives in the message tray until dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I missing the point
The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes more sense to me, design-wise.
Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel after Beta crunch and travelling.
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD / netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede all the other suggestions, I think.
Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...' things?
On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
replace it with a choice on the live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install'
I like this idea. Although perhaps slightly challenging to get concisely worded choices that also don't cause confusion. It's possible "Start" vs "Install" is sufficient. Slightly more clear "Start Fedora 17 Live Desktop" vs "Install Fedora xx".
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.
Chris Murphy
To summarize, I see two major paths:
a) Make installer launcher more visible: e.g. http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
-or-
b) Use a proxy window asking which use case is relevant for you: e.g. http://i.imgur.com/I26vS.png
Both approaches are fine in my view and certainly improve the current state. The implementation of each approach can very a lot, especially for the first one.
One more comment to "we want to provide the default experience": Gnome Shell is quite intuitive *once you know it*. But if you see it for the first time, it is not, it brings a lot of new concepts. And it lacks any options to make an important launcher really visible. For this reason the stock/default experience is not suitable for the LiveCD installer use case. It is not a fault, because it targets something else. We just need to adjust it accordingly in this case.
Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com said:
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two:
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the live media is to boot a live system.
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On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 17:54:46 GMT, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com said:
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two:
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the live media is to boot a live system.
+1. Testing whether a video card (or other non-removable hardware) is supported or not is a prime use case of Live media for me.
- --Ben
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 00:17 +0000, Ben Boeckel wrote:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 17:54:46 GMT, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com said:
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two:
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the live media is to boot a live system.
+1. Testing whether a video card (or other non-removable hardware) is supported or not is a prime use case of Live media for me.
I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer.
On Apr 9, 2012, at 6:36 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer.
I definitely dislike the idea of installer autostart. I imagine my typical live commentary with such a LiveCD as, "WTF?! I didn't ask for the g.d. installer to f'n launch! What the sh*t?!"
DVD and netinst media works this way, the LiveCD *expressly* should not.
Chris Murphy
* on the Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:54:46PM -0500, Chris Adams was commenting: | Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com said: | > That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my | > view, there's really only two: | > | > The primary use for a live cd is to install. | | That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the | live media is to boot a live system.
There are significant regions where people only get LiveCDs and not Install CDs - bandwidth, swag handouts at events etc.
So, I think placing the icon/text on the top bar (as proposed by the OP), makes things much clearer and obvious. I've gotten so many questions about how to install from the liveCD, that it clearly is something that we should fix and make obvious.
Regards.
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:44:17 -0400, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my view, there's really only two:
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
And then, there is a secondary use where you want to review or test without the intention to keep a permanent install.
You can use it as a rescue image, which is similar to the the latter case.
You can also use it as a way to have trusted image to run on machines you don't get to install software on.
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.
That won't work on write once media. Even on a USB you need to have added an overlay or home area when you put the image on the USB or you aren't going to be able to change things.
On 04/03/2012 01:30 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400, Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote:
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.
I agree with you. Autostart the installer? Who thought such a horrible thing? Using a LiveCD doesn't mean that you are going to install...
Germán.
Matthias Clasen wrote:
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default experience.
I think that's a very bad (and dogmatic) decision. We should ship what's best for our users (of Fedora), not what's 100% unmodified GNOME.
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer does not really work well for that...
I agree with the other responders who said that that's a horrible and very unhelpful idea.
Kevin Kofler
Kamil Paral píše v Út 03. 04. 2012 v 09:26 -0400:
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.
You can see it here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
I personally think it's definitely better than default. I'm sure it can be improved in many ways, but this was my first GS extension ever and I'm really lame, so bear with me (patches welcome). The source code is here: http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z
How to try out:
- boot F17 Beta RC2 Live
- extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/
- restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r)
- install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension
Future steps if people like it: a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it
Comments welcome.
Thanks, Kamil
I think this is definitely something we should fix. I don't even remember how many times I've been asked how to install Fedora from the liveCD. The solution proposed by Kamil is definitely better and more obvious than the one we've had so far. If we want to have as default look as possible we might want to change the icon in the dash. Something like adding text in the icon "Install Fedora". I know it probably breaks all icon guidelines, but I don't know any picture that would obviously stand for installation. The way it is now is really more like an easter egg or a contest "who will find a way to install Fedora first".
Jiri
On 04/03/2012 02:26 PM, Kamil Paral wrote:
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment.
On a more general note it would be nice to stream-line the experience from web to installation. Most of the hard parts are done, just a few steps to polish.
As a developer I don't read the docs and for ages have just:
wget -c ... # download live image (-c to resume partial) ls -1 /sys/block | grep usb (To find USBDEV) dd iflag=direct oflag=direct bs=1M if=file.iso of=/dev/$USBDEV (I use direct to avoid linux virtual memory stalls and cache eviction)
So as an experiment I tried as a new user would, to see how easily they could come to an equivalent conclusion:
1a. Search for "install fedora" -> get.fedoraproject.org This is very good 1b. Search for "fedora linux" -> fedoraproject.org This is OK, but there are 6 download links on that page which is confusing. Also it mentions "CD-ROM" image which is no longer the norm. I'd just have "download development" linking to iso, and "download" linking to get.fedoraproject.org
2. To get to the default instructions for writing the image: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora (alias for get.fedoraproject.org) http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making... (covers windows) http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making... 3.2.2.1.1. Making Fedora USB Media with a graphical tool This erroneously mentions needing to enable EPEL. I also notice this pulls in lots of QT stuff to a default install (106MB!) So I insert my (existing F17) usb install disk and run the liveusb-creator GUI which outputs Unable to find any USB drives Enabling -v from the command line, gives: Skipping /dev/sdb with unknown filesystem: iso9660 So apparently this tool is a higher level tool and doesn't support a mode where the image is simply written to the device.
I'll look at improving the Fedora docs as per the notes above.
If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it.
To be precise, one has to: 1. Click activities 2. Click the hard drive "with a green hat on it" I agree that's not immediately obvious. So as to solutions: 1. Your suggestion of a persistent panel item is not ideal but better. This is a fine interim solution. 2. The suggestion of an earlier "install" or "boot live" option is good too, but a bit more invasive. 3. The suggestion of using notifications may be better but not until notifications are fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14z4wdgNF9g
cheers, Pádraig.
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