Thank you for doing all this work, Petr. I, for one, really appreciate it. I hope others feel the same (whether or not they agree with the Built Root change itself). Cheers. --Tim On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com <mailto:ppisar@redhat.com>> wrote: Hello, per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, I'm ready to implement the most visible part of this change. I'm going to inject perl-devel and perl-generators build-requires into Fedora specification files tomorrow. That's necessary not to break building the packages when Perl will have been removed from the build root. There are 3292 packages that should build-require perl-generators, there are 491 packages that should build-require perl-devel. Some of them already contain the dependency. There are 3129 packages that miss one of them and they will be edited. The edit will consist of one commit with this commit message: Mandatory Perl build-requires added <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl> The commit will add: BuildRequires: perl-devel or BuildRequires: perl-generators or both into a spec file. There will be no revision bump, no RPM changelog entry, no rebuild in the Koji. I expect pulling the source repositories, commiting the changes and pushing them back to the dist-git will take at least 2 hours. Package maintainers and people with watch-commit role will receive an e-mail notification about the commit as usually. Thank you for your understanding. -- Petr -- devel mailing list devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

On 2016-06-23, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change > <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, > I'm ready to implement the most visible part of this change. > > I'm going to inject perl-devel and perl-generators build-requires > into Fedora specification files tomorrow. That's necessary not to > break building the packages when Perl will have been removed from > the build root. > The mass edit finished successfully. It touched 3121 packages.

per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, I'm ready to implement the most visible part of this change.

Petr Pisar wrote: > per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change > <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, I'm > ready to implement the most visible part of this change. That change completely fails to account for the unknown (probably very high) number of packages that run Perl scripts at any point of their build process. All the steps you documented to detect affected packages catch only packages that actually have Perl-related output (because you scan the RUNTIME dependencies for Perl module or libperl dependencies), which are only the tip of the iceberg. I expect this change to break a huge number of packages' build in very strange, hard to debug ways. It is likely that some will even silently build with some important functionality removed, because Perl was not available to build some generated file or test for some system properties. I also expect that a very high percentage of the packages will need a BR perl (if not perl-generators or even perl-devel), making any buildroot size savings moot, and actually SLOWING DOWN mock builds because perl will no longer be included in the root cache. IMHO, any approval you obtained for this feature needs to be revisited, because you failed to accurately describe the impact.

On 29/06/16 12:08, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Petr Pisar wrote: > > > > per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change > > <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, > > I'm > > ready to implement the most visible part of this change. > That change completely fails to account for the unknown (probably > very high)  > number of packages that run Perl scripts at any point of their > build  > process. All the steps you documented to detect affected packages > catch only  > packages that actually have Perl-related output (because you scan > the  > RUNTIME dependencies for Perl module or libperl dependencies), > which are  > only the tip of the iceberg. I expect this change to break a huge > number of  > packages' build in very strange, hard to debug ways. It is likely > that some  > will even silently build with some important functionality removed, > because  > Perl was not available to build some generated file or test for > some system  > properties. > > I also expect that a very high percentage of the packages will need > a BR  > perl (if not perl-generators or even perl-devel), making any > buildroot size  > savings moot, and actually SLOWING DOWN mock builds because perl > will no  > longer be included in the root cache. > > IMHO, any approval you obtained for this feature needs to be > revisited,  > because you failed to accurately describe the impact. Good analysis.

I would like the perl team to consider taking this opportunity to remove non-standard behavior instead of adding more. The whole perl/perl- devel split was to make the install smaller, mostly for build root reasons. Since that is no longer a consideration can we make it so that requiring perl gets you a proper perl core installed? That should stop most breakage as anyone using none core stuff should have had it specifically required anyway. Cheers, Jeff. -- devel mailing list devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject .org

On 2016-06-29, Jeff Fearn <jfearn(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > I would like the perl team to consider taking this opportunity to remove > non-standard behavior instead of adding more. The whole perl/perl-devel > split was to make the install smaller, mostly for build root reasons. > Since that is no longer a consideration can we make it so that requiring > perl gets you a proper perl core installed? > > That should stop most breakage as anyone using none core stuff should > have had it specifically required anyway. > What applies to any Fedora package, applies to Perl packages too. For example we have about 2800 Perl packages, but only 493 are architecture specific that must depend on perl-devel and GCC. (I know the number because two months ago I accidentally removed perl-devel.)

So no, I do not consider making the core modules somewhat special.

Perl would have fallen into the same mud where Python or TeX Live is now.

On 2016-06-29, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote: > Petr Pisar wrote: >> per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change >> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, I'm >> ready to implement the most visible part of this change. > > That change completely fails to account for the unknown (probably very high) > number of packages that run Perl scripts at any point of their build > process. Becuase it's impossible.

On 2016-06-29, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > We could download root.logs from Koji and grep them for "Package > perl-4:\S* is already installed, skipping". That should provide some > data.

the logs cannot be used for that purpose.

Hello, per Build Root Without Perl Fedora 25 change <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Build_Root_Without_Perl>;, I'm ready to implement the most visible part of this change.

I'm going to inject perl-devel and perl-generators build-requires into Fedora specification files tomorrow. That's necessary not to break building the packages when Perl will have been removed from the build root.