https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultToNotoFonts
== Summary == Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.
== Owner == * Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]] * Email: tagoh@redhat.com
== Detailed Description == For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts. (A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default for some time.) This situation leads to inconsistencies in text rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.
This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the general system default set of fonts.
The following packages will be installed by default to replace DejaVu's coverage: * google-noto-sans-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts * google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts * google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts * google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts
And you can check [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to see what languages will be affected by this change.
== Benefit to Fedora == We would get better text rendering on applications and desktops. Also this change should save about 6MB on the fresh install.
<pre> $ rpm -qlv dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-serif-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}' 10789272</pre> <pre> $ rpm -qlv google-noto-sans-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts google-noto -sans-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-f onts google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-f onts google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}' 4753340 </pre>
== Scope == * Proposal owners: ** Update google-noto-fonts and dejavu-fonts to change the priority for fontconfig config. ** Update langpacks to update the dependency. ** Update comps to make Noto fonts default. ** Update lorax templates related to DejaVu. ** Update fontconfig to change the order of fonts in the builtin config.
* Other developers: ** Packagers who owns packages implicitly expects DejaVu is installed by default will needs to update the dependency for them.
* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10492 #10492] * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change) * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change) * Alignment with Objectives:
== Upgrade/compatibility impact == The migration will be done by updating langpacks. after upgrading and rebooting, the default font will be Noto instead of DejaVu.
Since this change aims to switch non-variable fonts to variable fonts, it may not works with legacy applications as expected such as missing some variants. in that case, you can install non-variable fonts packages. the package name will be similar and simply drop `-vf` from the variable fonts packages.
== How To Test == * This change can be simply tested by `fc-match` command like `fc-match sans:lang=<your langauge>`, `fc-match serif:lang=<your language>` and `fc-match monospace:lang=<your language>`. You can check the expected result from [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table]. * Test the text rendering in your favorite application, which use the system default font.
== User Experience == Users will see the default font is changed to Noto by this change except for some languages which has much better quality of fonts.
== Dependencies == Only dejavu-fonts, langpacks, and fontconfig are required to update. Other packages which explicitly has a dependency to dejavu-fonts are basicaly optional to update.
== Contingency Plan == * Contingency mechanism: Revert the relevant packages updated. * Contingency deadline: Beta freeze * Blocks release? No
== Documentation == None.
== Release Notes == The default fonts for most languages will be Google Noto fonts instead of DejaVu, to keep consistency on the text rendering and to provide better quality among languages.
Hello,
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 4:04 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultToNotoFonts
== Summary == Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.
== Owner ==
- Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]]
- Email: tagoh@redhat.com
== Detailed Description == For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts. (A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default for some time.) This situation leads to inconsistencies in text rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.
This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the general system default set of fonts.
The following packages will be installed by default to replace DejaVu's coverage:
- google-noto-sans-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts
- google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts
Will all of them be installed by default or depending on langpacks selection?
And you can check [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to see what languages will be affected by this change.
== Benefit to Fedora == We would get better text rendering on applications and desktops. Also this change should save about 6MB on the fresh install.
<pre> $ rpm -qlv dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-serif-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}' 10789272</pre>
<pre> $ rpm -qlv google-noto-sans-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts google-noto -sans-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-f onts google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-f onts google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}' 4753340 </pre>
== Scope ==
- Proposal owners:
** Update google-noto-fonts and dejavu-fonts to change the priority for fontconfig config. ** Update langpacks to update the dependency. ** Update comps to make Noto fonts default. ** Update lorax templates related to DejaVu. ** Update fontconfig to change the order of fonts in the builtin config.
- Other developers:
** Packagers who owns packages implicitly expects DejaVu is installed by default will needs to update the dependency for them.
- Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10492 #10492]
- Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
- Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
- Alignment with Objectives:
== Upgrade/compatibility impact == The migration will be done by updating langpacks. after upgrading and rebooting, the default font will be Noto instead of DejaVu.
Is it safe to delete DejaVu fonts assuming they are not used by any known app?
Since this change aims to switch non-variable fonts to variable fonts, it may not works with legacy applications as expected such as missing some variants. in that case, you can install non-variable fonts packages. the package name will be similar and simply drop `-vf` from the variable fonts packages.
== How To Test ==
- This change can be simply tested by `fc-match` command like
`fc-match sans:lang=<your langauge>`, `fc-match serif:lang=<your language>` and `fc-match monospace:lang=<your language>`. You can check the expected result from [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table].
- Test the text rendering in your favorite application, which use the
system default font.
I think this paragraph explains how to test already applied change, but not really how to "test it before it lands"… Do you think it is possible to describe it here?
== User Experience == Users will see the default font is changed to Noto by this change except for some languages which has much better quality of fonts.
== Dependencies == Only dejavu-fonts, langpacks, and fontconfig are required to update. Other packages which explicitly has a dependency to dejavu-fonts are basicaly optional to update.
== Contingency Plan ==
- Contingency mechanism: Revert the relevant packages updated.
Also some instructions / automation to revert the change?
- Contingency deadline: Beta freeze
- Blocks release? No
== Documentation == None.
== Release Notes == The default fonts for most languages will be Google Noto fonts instead of DejaVu, to keep consistency on the text rendering and to provide better quality among languages.
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ devel-announce mailing list -- devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-announce-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce@lists.fedorapro... Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:28 AM Igor Raits igor.raits@gmail.com wrote:
Will all of them be installed by default or depending on langpacks selection?
Yes. Basically upgrading will be done by langpacks package update.
Is it safe to delete DejaVu fonts assuming they are not used by any known app?
It would be supposed to be so.
I think this paragraph explains how to test already applied change, but not really how to "test it before it lands"… Do you think it is possible to describe it here?
The result you get would be the same to something in f35 cells if you try to test it before landing.
Also some instructions / automation to revert the change?
As said, all the upgrade process will be done by langpacks. Even if you already upgraded and installed this change, reverted changes will also be delivered through langpacks.
HTH,
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the font is proportional by default.
After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono. I find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me. Language is English.
I'm testing in emacs. My usual default is Source code sans semibold and I find that very pleasing. I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono semibold, which looks very similar. But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no weight looks right. Medium is too light, and the next weight, semibold, is too heavy.
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the font is proportional by default. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Thu, Dec 30 2021 at 11:06:18 AM -0500, Neal Becker ndbecker2@gmail.com wrote:
I'm testing in emacs.
I'm going to suggest testing in web browsers too, because the change is going to be especially noticeable there. A *lot* of websites use default fonts. I find https://lwn.net is a good test page.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker ndbecker2@gmail.com wrote:
After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono. I find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me. Language is English.
I'm testing in emacs. My usual default is Source code sans semibold and I find that very pleasing. I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono semibold, which looks very similar. But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no weight looks right. Medium is too light, and the next weight, semibold, is too heavy.
Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind. Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable font of Noto Sans Mono?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the font is proportional by default. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
-- Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Sorry, don't understand the question. I was testing with non-variable fonts, all were "mono".
On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:45 PM Akira TAGOH tagoh@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker ndbecker2@gmail.com wrote:
After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono. I find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me. Language is English.
I'm testing in emacs. My usual default is Source code sans semibold and I find that very pleasing. I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono semibold, which looks very similar. But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no weight looks right. Medium is too light, and the next weight, semibold, is too heavy.
Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind. Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable font of Noto Sans Mono?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com
wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be
replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a
smaller
number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because
the
font is proportional by default. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
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Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
-- Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct:
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-- Akira TAGOH _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 9:41 PM Neal Becker ndbecker2@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, don't understand the question. I was testing with non-variable fonts, all were "mono".
Ah, okay. my proposal was basically to replace with variable fonts. so I was assuming it may be a variable font and you may see some issue because of it. Anyway, that's fine then. also looking forward to hearing your feedback on other applications.
On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:45 PM Akira TAGOH tagoh@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker ndbecker2@gmail.com wrote:
After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono. I find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me. Language is English.
I'm testing in emacs. My usual default is Source code sans semibold and I find that very pleasing. I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono semibold, which looks very similar. But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no weight looks right. Medium is too light, and the next weight, semibold, is too heavy.
Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind. Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable font of Noto Sans Mono?
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim ego.cordatus@gmail.com wrote:
Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the font is proportional by default. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
-- Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
-- Akira TAGOH _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
-- Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Ben Cotton wrote:
== Summary == Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.
== Owner ==
- Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]]
- Email: tagoh@redhat.com
Considering that DejaVu had been chosen as the default font for its high coverage (by the standards at that time), that that coverage has been significantly surpassed by Noto, and that DejaVu appears to be unmaintained upstream (no commits for 5 years, whereas it used to be released every 2 weeks or so to improve coverage back in the day), this looks like a reasonable thing to do.
Also note that Noto is already the default in KDE Plasma.
== Detailed Description == For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts. (A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default for some time.) This situation leads to inconsistencies in text rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.
This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the general system default set of fonts.
+1
However:
And you can check [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to see what languages will be affected by this change.
I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using non-Noto fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available, e.g., https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and Tamil on the first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will continue to be used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts for those scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would lead to a more consistent experience.
Kevin Kofler
On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:52 AM Kevin Kofler via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using non-Noto fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available, e.g., https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and Tamil on the first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will continue to be used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts for those scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would lead to a more consistent experience.
Asking someone to get an answer for this. I'll get back to you soon, but Lohit continues to be maintained. and I couldn't get enough feedback whether Lohit should be replaced with Noto or not. so I set the goal for this proposal just to replace DejaVu with Noto as the initial plan. As you said, there are other languages Noto has the coverage. If they have enough quality to be replaced, I would strongly agree with you.
Kevin Kofler
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Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using non-Noto fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available, e.g., https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and Tamil on the first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will continue to be used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts for those scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would lead to a more consistent experience.
Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math font be changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters, see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign (dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign (constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX).
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:07 PM Kevin Kofler via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math font be changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters, see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign (dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign (constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX).
Good point. Yes, that makes sense. I'll update the proposal with it. thanks!
Kevin Kofler
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On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:45 PM Akira TAGOH tagoh@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:07 PM Kevin Kofler via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math font be changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters, see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign (dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign (constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX).
Good point. Yes, that makes sense. I'll update the proposal with it. thanks!
Unfortunately Noto Sans Math doesn't have enough coverage to represent math (as und-zmth orthography defined in fontconfig). I won't do it (even if I do, it won't be picked up as a math font) and keep STIX as a default math font this time for all the generic families.
Kevin Kofler
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-- Akira TAGOH
Akira TAGOH wrote:
Unfortunately Noto Sans Math doesn't have enough coverage to represent math (as und-zmth orthography defined in fontconfig). I won't do it (even if I do, it won't be picked up as a math font) and keep STIX as a default math font this time for all the generic families.
OK, good to know. Specialist fonts clearly still have their use.
Kevin Kofler
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 10:01:38AM -0500, Ben Cotton wrote:
The following packages will be installed by default to replace DejaVu's coverage:
- google-noto-sans-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts
- google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts
- google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
- google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts
lorax templates currently install:
installpkg abattis-cantarell-fonts installpkg bitmap-fangsongti-fonts installpkg dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-sinhala-vf-fonts installpkg jomolhari-fonts installpkg khmer-os-system-fonts installpkg lohit-assamese-fonts installpkg lohit-bengali-fonts installpkg lohit-devanagari-fonts installpkg lohit-gujarati-fonts installpkg lohit-kannada-fonts installpkg lohit-marathi-fonts installpkg lohit-odia-fonts installpkg lohit-tamil-fonts installpkg lohit-telugu-fonts installpkg paktype-naskh-basic-fonts installpkg sil-abyssinica-fonts installpkg sil-padauk-fonts installpkg sil-scheherazade-fonts installpkg smc-meera-fonts installpkg thai-scalable-waree-fonts installpkg xorg-x11-fonts-misc
And from the conversation it sounds like it will still need dejavu for some languages?
It sounds like I should keep dejavu and replace the current noto fonts with the -vf versions? Can any of these others be removed?
Brian
On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:07 AM Brian C. Lane bcl@redhat.com wrote:
lorax templates currently install:
installpkg abattis-cantarell-fonts installpkg bitmap-fangsongti-fonts installpkg dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts installpkg google-noto-sans-sinhala-vf-fonts installpkg jomolhari-fonts installpkg khmer-os-system-fonts installpkg lohit-assamese-fonts installpkg lohit-bengali-fonts installpkg lohit-devanagari-fonts installpkg lohit-gujarati-fonts installpkg lohit-kannada-fonts installpkg lohit-marathi-fonts installpkg lohit-odia-fonts installpkg lohit-tamil-fonts installpkg lohit-telugu-fonts installpkg paktype-naskh-basic-fonts installpkg sil-abyssinica-fonts installpkg sil-padauk-fonts installpkg sil-scheherazade-fonts installpkg smc-meera-fonts installpkg thai-scalable-waree-fonts installpkg xorg-x11-fonts-misc
And from the conversation it sounds like it will still need dejavu for some languages?
Possibly dejavu-sans-mono-fonts only. we can drop dejavu-sans-fonts.
It sounds like I should keep dejavu and replace the current noto fonts with the -vf versions? Can any of these others be removed?
No variable fonts version of Noto Sans CJK fonts. We want to replace google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts with -vf. I'll submit PR to update for this later anyway.
Thank you for taking a look.
Brian
-- Brian C. Lane (PST8PDT) - weldr.io - lorax - parted - pykickstart _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Thanks everyone for this work.
I would like to point to a problem with the current config regarding Arabic font. For Arabic text, The dejavu sans is still being displayed in many webpages in firefox instead of the noto sans. However, when switching the system language to arabic, firefox correctly displays noto sans arabic which is huge improvment. But if the system/gnome language is set to english, dejavu is frequently used to display some arabic texts in firefox
The problem with dejavu sans for Arabic is being incredibly ugly and borderline unreadable when bolded.
For example: -at fedoraproject.org/ar most text exhibit this problem, firefox is using dejavu to render arabic instead of noto sans when the system/gnome language is english -Youtube video titles -Most text at podcast.google.com -Wikipedia.org DOESN'T seem to suffer from this problem, It displays noto sans arabic regardless whether the system language is Arabic or English. (TLDR: this is the desired behavior)
Picture example of the problem: where the first pic shows FFx rendering the text using noto, the second pic it's using dejavu for arabic. https://imgur.com/a/x97tCp9
Is this solvable?
Update: Apparently, this problem doesn't exist on new install/liveusb because dejavu is not installed so I found out that on my system I have VLC which has a dependency on dejavu..
Dejavu was default font in Fedora for many many years, so many packages still rely/assume it. Likely more than necessary, eg in current Fedora Rawhide...
$ sudo dnf repoquery -q --whatrequires dejavu-sans-fonts | grep -v i686 | wc -l 43
After the new `default-fonts` Change for Fedora 39, one could hope some of these could be changed to `default-fonts-core-sans` (similarly for serif and mono, but they are lesser in number).
I would like to point to a problem with the current config regarding Arabic font. For Arabic text, The dejavu sans is still being displayed in many webpages in firefox instead of the noto sans. However, when switching the system language to arabic, firefox correctly displays noto sans arabic which is huge improvment. But if the system/gnome language is set to english, dejavu is frequently used to display some arabic texts in firefox
The problem with dejavu sans for Arabic is being incredibly ugly and borderline unreadable when bolded.
For example: -at fedoraproject.org/ar most text exhibit this problem, firefox is using dejavu to render arabic instead of noto sans when the system/gnome language is english -Youtube video titles -Most text at podcast.google.com -Wikipedia.org DOESN'T seem to suffer from this problem, It displays noto sans arabic regardless whether the system language is Arabic or English. (TLDR: this is the desired behavior)
Picture example of the problem: where the first pic shows FFx rendering the text using noto, the second pic it's using dejavu for arabic. https://imgur.com/a/x97tCp9
Is this solvable?
How about chromium?
This might be a firefox issue if it prefers Dejavu to Noto Arabic (it sounds like that is the case): then I think you should report a bug in Mozilla bugzilla to ask them to change the priorities. I think nowadays Dejavu should be considered more of a fallback than default: but of course it is still the default font in Ubuntu so... Nevertheless I don't see a problem with preferring Noto if installed. You can also open a Fedora bug to track this.
Jens
ps In general it is better to start a new thread for problems like this, after a long time.