The Fedora Project is pleased to announce the release of the fourth and final test release of Fedora 7!
Test 4 is for beta users. This is the time when we MUST have full community participation. Without this participation both hardware and software functionality suffers. We need your help. Join us!
Road Map And Release Schedule ============================= This is the final test release before the final Fedora 7 release, which is scheduled for May 24, 2007.
For further information see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/7/
How to get it: ============= DVD and network installation are available. We also offer three different varieties of installable Live media - see "Live CD", below.
http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/ The recommended method of download is via BitTorrent from this site.
http://fedora.redhat.com/Download/mirrors.html HTTP, FTP, and RSYNC downloads are available from Fedora Project mirrors listed above. Note that not all mirrors may be synced at this time.
For those of you already running a pre-release version of Fedora 7, all you need to do to upgrade to Test 4 is update your packages.
Release Notes: ============= Testing focus * Users of e1000 (Intel gigabit ethernet) devices should be on the lookout for device lockups, although we believe this is fixed. * The new wireless stack is working well but still needs testing. In particular, iwlwifi (Intel 3945) has been troublesome in the past but should be much better in this release. * Upgrades from Fedora Core 6 (or older) should be tested, but please be careful - this is still a test release and we can't guarantee everything will work as expected.
Important Warnings about the Test Release * The 2.6.21 kernel uses new IDE drivers which use the same 'libata' subsystem as the SATA drivers. As a side-effect, IDE devices previously named /dev/hdX will now be named /dev/sdX. This may cause problems with anything that mentions devices by name instead of by filesystem label. Anaconda should be able to detect most of these problems and help you fix them.
General * In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora". * Fedora 7 Test 4's primary product is a Desktop/Development Workstation/Server distribution which closely matches the contents of previous Fedora Core releases.
Live CD * This test release includes three Live images: an i386 Desktop Live CD, an x86_64 Desktop Live DVD, and an i386 KDE Live CD. These Live CDs can be installed to disk using the graphical Anaconda installer.
Desktop * This test release features GNOME 2.18. * The new Echo icon theme is no longer the default, although it is still available from the repositories. * KDE and Xfce, among several other packages, are included in the development repositories, but not on the media. They can be installed using the appropriate software management tools. * Fast User Switching is now available via the fast-user-switch-applet. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFastUserSwitching for more details. * The internet messaging program called "Gaim" is now known as "Pidgin". See http://pidgin.im/ for more info.
Performance * System performance is generally slower in the test releases as compared to the general release since we enable several options that help with debugging. * Yum / rpm performance should be better in this release than previous Fedora 7 test releases.
System Level Changes * Amanda Users who upgrade from older releases need to read the amanda.conf and amanda-client.conf man pages to learn about the the new syntax for calling amandad, as well as edit the /etc/xinetd.d/amanda configuration file to follow the new syntax. * This release includes a kernel based on 2.6.21-rc7. Current release information is tracked on the kernel release notes page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Kernel
Bug reporting and tracking: ========================== The Release Engineering and QA teams keep track of bugs that are considered release blockers. You can see that list here: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=FC7Blocker
In addition, a list of non-blocker bugs that should be fixed for Fedora 7 if possible can be found here: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=FC7Target
Please check these lists before reporting new bugs!
Bugs for this release should be reported against the Fedora Core product, version 'devel'. You can use this convenient link to report bugs: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora% 20Core&version=devel
About Fedora ============ Fedora is a set of projects sponsored by Red Hat and guided by the contributors. These projects are developed by a large community of people who strive to provide and maintain the very best in free, open source software and standards. The central Fedora project is an operating system and platform based on Linux that is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute, now and forever.
You can help the Fedora Project community continue to improve Fedora if you file bug reports and enhancement requests. Refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests for more information. Thank you for your participation!
To find out more general information about Fedora, refer to the following Web pages: * Fedora Overview (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview) * Fedora FAQ (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ) * Help and Support (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate) * Participate in the Fedora Project (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted)
On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 13:37 -0400, Will Woods wrote:
Desktop * This test release features GNOME 2.18. * The new Echo icon theme is no longer the default, although it is still available from the repositories. * KDE and Xfce, among several other packages, are included in the development repositories, but not on the media. They can be installed using the appropriate software management tools. * Fast User Switching is now available via the fast-user-switch-applet. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFastUserSwitching for more details. * The internet messaging program called "Gaim" is now known as "Pidgin". See http://pidgin.im/ for more info.
Intel graphics users may now find themselves switched onto the new modesetting driver. All i945 and i965 chips should now use it by default, as well as i915GM (mostly laptops and small-form-factor machines). Please yell if anything doesn't work.
- ajax
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007, Will Woods wrote:
The Fedora Project is pleased to announce the release of the fourth and final test release of Fedora 7!
How to get it:
DVD and network installation are available. We also offer three different varieties of installable Live media - see "Live CD", below.
http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/ The recommended method of download is via BitTorrent from this site.
The torrent site has not been updated to include the FC7t4 torrents.
On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 13:54 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thursday 26 April 2007 13:56:20 alan wrote:
The torrent site has not been updated to include the FC7t4 torrents.
Torrents are coming online soon. I failed to upload them to the torrent server in time.
They're up now. Enjoy.
-w
downloaded it and installed it :) looking good so far.. sadly the echo icon theme didn't made it in :( o btw.. during the installation (in anaconda) where you select your country on that globe map..
DON'T PRESS THE MOUSEWHEEL!! i did it and the screen went black with: "it`s safe to reboot" or something like it.
2007/4/26, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com:
On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 13:54 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thursday 26 April 2007 13:56:20 alan wrote:
The torrent site has not been updated to include the FC7t4 torrents.
Torrents are coming online soon. I failed to upload them to the torrent server in time.
They're up now. Enjoy.
-w
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Mark wrote:
downloaded it and installed it :) looking good so far.. sadly the echo icon theme didn't made it in :(
It is still there but not by default. An upsteam bug from librsvg causes some SVG echo icon to not properly display on the desktop. As a result, they are under modifications. I have backed up the original until librsvg (version 2.16.1) is fixed.
Regards,
Will Woods <wwoods <at> redhat.com> writes:
* KDE and Xfce, among several other packages, are included in the development repositories, but not on the media. They can be installed using the appropriate software management tools.
Is this paragraph left over from the test 1 "minimal desktop spin" attempt? KDE appears to actually be included in the spin-formerly-known-as-Prime. http://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/pub/fedora/test/6.93/Fedora/i386/os/Fedora/
Kevin Kofler
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 00:33 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Will Woods <wwoods <at> redhat.com> writes:
* KDE and Xfce, among several other packages, are included in the development repositories, but not on the media. They can be installed using the appropriate software management tools.
Is this paragraph left over from the test 1 "minimal desktop spin" attempt? KDE appears to actually be included in the spin-formerly-known-as-Prime. http://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/pub/fedora/test/6.93/Fedora/i386/os/Fedora/
Whoops! You're completely correct. My fault for not reading what I was copying & pasting more closely.
The current Fedora spin does include KDE, but not XFCE. Both are available post-install.
-w
On Thursday 26 April 2007 21:16:46 Will Woods wrote:
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 00:33 +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Will Woods <wwoods <at> redhat.com> writes:
* KDE and Xfce, among several other packages, are included in the development repositories, but not on the media. They can be installed using the appropriate software management tools.
Is this paragraph left over from the test 1 "minimal desktop spin" attempt? KDE appears to actually be included in the spin-formerly-known-as-Prime. http://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/pub/fedora/test/6.93/Fedora/i386/os/Fedora/
Whoops! You're completely correct. My fault for not reading what I was copying & pasting more closely.
Ooops. I didn't even notice that during proof reading. Shows how much good I was :/
My laptop's screen is 1280x768, but the desktop background displayed for the LiveCD is 1600x1200. The Display Settings configuration app shows the correct resolution. Is it possible to have the desktop display a widescreen background automatically?
I found a couple of bugs that seem somewhat related. Is a new bug report needed? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175303 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=176371
From an i386 LiveCD, I loaded the CD into RAM. The boot instructions
suggest 1GB+ of RAM is needed. I have: Memory: 989420k/1014656k available (2150k kernel code, 24560k reserved, 1140k data, 248k init, 97152k highmem) It booted fine, but I loaded the background settings app and then Firefox. At that point everything basically froze. I couldn't find a bugreport for this, but I suspect this has already been reported?
Miles
Will Woods wrote:
General * In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora".
Are you referring to Red Hat marketing here? It certainly wasn't discussed in Fedora Marketing. Where was this discussed publicly?
Rahul
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 13:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Will Woods wrote:
General * In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora".
Are you referring to Red Hat marketing here? It certainly wasn't
Yes.
discussed in Fedora Marketing. Where was this discussed publicly?
To my knowledge it wasn't discussed on a public list. Though it was debated in IRC several times.
josh
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 06:07:50AM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 13:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Will Woods wrote:
General * In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora".
I think Red Hat marketing did a very bad job here. While "Fedora" is a strong brand, it will create too much confusion.
"I installed Fedora, but there is no foo, where can I get it?" "But it is in Fedora." "I'm sure it isn't, I just checked again." "OK, I also checked, it *is* there, are you blind?" "OK, just to be sure (maybe it has another packagename), I installed everything, still no /usr/bin/foo. :(" "Everything from Fedora and still no foo? That is strange, BTW how long did it take to install everything, that must have taken quite some time." "No, I have a fast DVD drive and I installed all packages of Fedora from there"
...
Are you referring to Red Hat marketing here? It certainly wasn't
Yes.
discussed in Fedora Marketing. Where was this discussed publicly?
To my knowledge it wasn't discussed on a public list. Though it was debated in IRC several times.
Why not let Fedora marketing make a sane decision? RH marketing seems not to know what "Fedora" is.
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 11:55 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote:
"I installed Fedora, but there is no foo, where can I get it?" "But it is in Fedora." "I'm sure it isn't, I just checked again." "OK, I also checked, it *is* there, are you blind?" "OK, just to be sure (maybe it has another packagename), I installed everything, still no /usr/bin/foo. :(" "Everything from Fedora and still no foo? That is strange, BTW how long did it take to install everything, that must have taken quite some time." "No, I have a fast DVD drive and I installed all packages of Fedora from there"
Maybe we should call it 'Fedora <something>' to indicate the difference between the core packages on the DVD and all the extra stuff available from the network?
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose.
Anyone got any ideas?
David Woodhouse schrieb:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 11:55 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote:
"I installed Fedora, but there is no foo, where can I get it?" "But it is in Fedora." "I'm sure it isn't, I just checked again." "OK, I also checked, it *is* there, are you blind?" "OK, just to be sure (maybe it has another packagename), I installed everything, still no /usr/bin/foo. :(" "Everything from Fedora and still no foo? That is strange, BTW how long did it take to install everything, that must have taken quite some time." "No, I have a fast DVD drive and I installed all packages of Fedora from there"
Maybe we should call it 'Fedora <something>' to indicate the difference between the core packages on the DVD and all the extra stuff available from the network?
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose.
Anyone got any ideas?
Fedora Repo N -> repository with all the packages (e.g. merged Core and Extras) of the certain release "N"; some people suggested to call it "Fedora Collection" as that would be more in line with the fcN which we use as disttag; but well, the name "Repo" is IMHO much more obvious (at least for me as a non-english speaker).
Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime spin in hte past weeks. This would allow us to create a Fedora OpenSolaris, Fedora Hurd or whatever distribution should we ever want to do go into such a direction.
Those two names would also differentiate between the "Fedora Project", which is referenced as plain "Fedora" often, too.
CU thl
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 13:26 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime spin in hte past weeks. This would allow us to create a Fedora OpenSolaris, Fedora Hurd or whatever distribution should we ever want to do go into such a direction.
If you think there has to be a small distinction among the install versus repo, then above sounds good to me.
Fedora Linux N = Version that is spun to cd/dvd/whatever (Fedora Prime would work as well)
Fedora Repo = The complete nuts and bolts including what is NOT in the spins
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 13:26 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose.
Anyone got any ideas?
Fedora Repo N -> repository with all the packages Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime
Hm, I don't think 'Linux' really conveys the information that these are the _core_ packages on the install media, rather than the extra stuff you might install later from the network (or extra DVDs or whatever).
I suppose 'Repo' is a little more suited to its task, but the core stuff is still in a repository on the install media (and elsewhere) too, so that name isn't ideal either.
We really want some names which convey the distinction between the Core stuff and the Extra bits. Got any better ideas?
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 14:04 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 13:26 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose.
Anyone got any ideas?
Fedora Repo N -> repository with all the packages Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime
Hm, I don't think 'Linux' really conveys the information that these are the _core_ packages on the install media, rather than the extra stuff you might install later from the network (or extra DVDs or whatever).
I suppose 'Repo' is a little more suited to its task, but the core stuff is still in a repository on the install media (and elsewhere) too, so that name isn't ideal either.
We really want some names which convey the distinction between the Core stuff and the Extra bits. Got any better ideas?
No, we don't. The Core stuff and Extra bits are intermingled between spins. It varies. And there's the Everything spin.
Naming sucks.
josh
Josh Boyer schrieb:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 14:04 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
On Sat, 2007-04-28 at 13:26 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose. Anyone got any ideas?
Fedora Repo N -> repository with all the packages Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime
Hm, I don't think 'Linux' really conveys the information that these are the _core_ packages on the install media, rather than the extra stuff you might install later from the network (or extra DVDs or whatever). I suppose 'Repo' is a little more suited to its task, but the core stuff is still in a repository on the install media (and elsewhere) too, so that name isn't ideal either.
We really want some names which convey the distinction between the Core stuff and the Extra bits.
As jwb wrote: each spin has a different "core" set... And, btw, Users IMHO should not care where the packages come from.
Got any better ideas?
No. Well, maybe something else shows up.
No, we don't. The Core stuff and Extra bits are intermingled between spins. It varies. And there's the Everything spin.
Naming sucks.
Agreed -- but referencing three things (Repo as a whole, the Distro that gets made from the Repo and the Project itself) under the name "Fedora" sucks even more IMHO and just creates confusion ;-)
Cu thl
On 2007-04-28, Thorsten Leemhuis fedora@leemhuis.info wrote:
Got any better ideas?
No. Well, maybe something else shows up.
What's wrong with Fedora Live CD?
Matej
Matej Cepl wrote:
On 2007-04-28, Thorsten Leemhuis fedora@leemhuis.info wrote:
Got any better ideas?
No. Well, maybe something else shows up.
What's wrong with Fedora Live CD?
The spin which was previously called "Prime" and now called "Fedora" is NOT a live cd or dvd but provides a regular installation and has packages similar to Fedora Core in the previous release.
I consider the choice of "Fedora" as a bad choice for one of the spins and is bound to cause mass confusion. Jesse Keating or whoever can liaison with Red Hat marketing team can request them to come up some other name or we can go back to "Prime".
Rahul
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 15:02 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I consider the choice of "Fedora" as a bad choice for one of the spins and is bound to cause mass confusion. Jesse Keating or whoever can liaison with Red Hat marketing team can request them to come up some other name or we can go back to "Prime".
Fedora Prime (Install spin) Fedora Live (Live cd/dvd/install) Fedora Repo (the base software itself)
Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora <at> leemhuis.info> writes:
Fedora Linux N -> the Linux Distribution that was known as Prime spin in
Not only should it be "GNU/Linux" (Rawhide's "Linux" would be only kernel-2.6.21-1.3116.fc7), it also doesn't really convey the idea that it's just the subset of the packages in the default spin. A term like "Prime" or "Core" or "default spin" is really needed. The problem is just what term: "Prime" sounded a bit strange the first time I heard it (and not immediately obvious to me as a non-native English speaker, so I guess new users might be confused by it), "Core" is too reminiscent of the Core/Extras repository split (but would otherwise be the best term IMHO) and "default spin" is too technical.
Kevin Kofler
On Saturday 28 April 2007 11:15:22 am Kevin Kofler wrote:
users might be confused by it), "Core" is too reminiscent of the Core/Extras repository split (but would otherwise be the best term IMHO) and "default spin" is too technical.
Kevin Kofler
How about something like Fedora Base Packages Fedora Additions Packages
or similar?
Mail List wrote:
On Saturday 28 April 2007 11:15:22 am Kevin Kofler wrote:
users might be confused by it), "Core" is too reminiscent of the Core/Extras repository split (but would otherwise be the best term IMHO) and "default spin" is too technical.
Kevin Kofler
How about something like Fedora Base Packages Fedora Additions Packages
or similar?
Here is my thought:
Fedora Default => for official default spin/set Fedora Custom => for customized spin/set
On 4/28/07, Thorsten Leemhuis fedora@leemhuis.info wrote:
Fedora Repo N -> repository with all the packages (e.g. merged Core and Extras) of the certain release "N"; some people suggested to call it "Fedora Collection" as that would be more in line with the fcN which we use as disttag; but well, the name "Repo" is IMHO much more obvious (at least for me as a non-english speaker).
As someone who actually sits on the frontline and tries to communicate with users who are having problems... let me just say It would be really really... really.. keen if there was a super fabulously easy way to identify which particular install media image/set a particular user is using. If we are going to have multiple 'blessed' variants of install images out in the wild, calling one of them just Fedora is going to cause buckets of communication problems. Each collection of stuff that can be pointed to as an installable thing.. needs to have a subtitle. I don't care what the subtitle is, name each distinct installable media image/set the word for flower in a different language for all I care. Just so each installable media image/set is uniquely named with something beyond the word Fedora.
-jef"assailed by images of Abbott and Costelo's baseball comedy act modernized and re-enacted in every Fedora communication channel"spaleta
On Saturday 28 April 2007 04:14:16 David Woodhouse wrote:
Maybe we should call it 'Fedora <something>' to indicate the difference between the core packages on the DVD and all the extra stuff available from the network?
Not sure what sub-titles I'd choose. Something that indicates the essential information about 'core' vs 'extra', I suppose.
Anyone got any ideas?
The entire package set is the Fedora Collection (hence we keep .fcX for dist tag)
Jesse Keating schrieb:
[...] The entire package set is the Fedora Collection (hence we keep .fcX for dist tag)
I'm all for giving the repo a final name as different people refer to it with different names. "Fedora Collection" is acceptable to me (albeit not my fist choice, but that doesn't matter much now), but the last thing I have headed was this:
thl> /me *currently* votes for "Fedora Package Repository" (short: "fedora-repo"), as that's what it is. max> Fine with me.
found in: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg00584.html
Paul on the other hand in http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg00591.html said "Fedora Collection".
Or did I miss when any Board/Committee/Leader/Whatever agree on the final name for "entire package set"?
CU thl
On Saturday 28 April 2007 11:01:52 Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Or did I miss when any Board/Committee/Leader/Whatever agree on the final name for "entire package set"?
I don't know if it was decided or not, I got tired of waiting and went with what made sense with the current dist tags and build system tags and everything else. Not everything can be decided by committee.
Jesse Keating schrieb:
On Saturday 28 April 2007 11:01:52 Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Or did I miss when any Board/Committee/Leader/Whatever agree on the final name for "entire package set"?
I don't know if it was decided or not, I got tired of waiting and went with what made sense with the current dist tags and build system tags and everything else.
<sarcastic mode>Ohh, sorry, I thought this is Fedora, the Community project, where everyone can get heard and, if a agreement can't be reached by those that are involved in a discussion, the topic gets decided by a Committee and not by some random person that's happens to be in a good position to push his opinion through.</sarcastic mode>
Not everything can be decided by committee.
<sarcatic mode>But you can in this case?</sarcatic mode>
The whole thing could have been discussed and decided in less then 5 minutes by a Committee. FESCo is likely the one that could have done it. (maybe the Board should have blessed it afterwards). Jesse, you are in FESCo yourself. If you "got tired of waiting" why didn't you simply bring it up in a Meeting?
CU thl
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
* In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora".
Are you referring to Red Hat marketing here? It certainly wasn't discussed in Fedora Marketing. Where was this discussed publicly?
It was discussed a few times by the Fedora Board, and ultimately the decision was made that we would ask Red Hat's branding team what they thought made the most sense.
The feedback that we received from them was several-fold:
Most importantly: call something what it is, and *don't* give something a name that doesn't make it clear what it is.
As such, several of our names made a lot of sense:
Fedora 7 Gnome Live CD Fedora 7 KDE Live CD Fedora 7 Everything
All of these are good names. You know what it is, just by looking at the name.
Fedora Prime fails this test miserably. "Prime" sounds cute, but it doesn't *mean* anything. "Core" is a deprecated term, and "Classic" was voted down by the community. All of the other suggestions that I have seen, IMHO, fell into the same trap that "Prime" did.
The recommendation that Red Hat's branding team made, therefore, was that we look at "the spin that is similar to what Core used to be" and simply call it "Fedora 7".
That recommendation was acceptable to the Board, and was passed along to Jesse as the release engineer. If it was a bit of a surprise to the rest of the community until the Test4 announcement went out, the fault there is mine and not Jesse's or anyone else's.
FWIW, I think that calling the "previously Core" spin simply "Fedora" is fine. Think about a potential fedoraproject.org front page with a few download links:
-----------------
GET FEDORA 7
I want to install a basic desktop: * Gnome-based installable Live CD * KDE-based installable Live CD
I want to install a desktop/server/development box: * link to torrents, ISOs, etc
I want to install Everything: * link to torrents/trees, etc.
I want to build my own custom version of Fedora: * link to docs on how
Max Spevack wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
* In previous test releases the default product was called "Prime", but after feedback from Marketing and the community it has been renamed simply "Fedora".
Are you referring to Red Hat marketing here? It certainly wasn't discussed in Fedora Marketing. Where was this discussed publicly?
It was discussed a few times by the Fedora Board, and ultimately the decision was made that we would ask Red Hat's branding team what they thought made the most sense.
The feedback that we received from them was several-fold:
Most importantly: call something what it is, and *don't* give something a name that doesn't make it clear what it is.
As such, several of our names made a lot of sense:
Fedora 7 Gnome Live CD Fedora 7 KDE Live CD Fedora 7 Everything
All of these are good names. You know what it is, just by looking at the name.
Except that none of the test releases of Fedora 7 called the GNOME live cd as that. look at the announcement or http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/. I have pointed this out several times before and this has not changed. Do you agree we need to call it by that name?
Fedora Prime fails this test miserably. "Prime" sounds cute, but it doesn't *mean* anything. "Core" is a deprecated term, and "Classic" was voted down by the community. All of the other suggestions that I have seen, IMHO, fell into the same trap that "Prime" did.
The recommendation that Red Hat's branding team made, therefore, was that we look at "the spin that is similar to what Core used to be" and simply call it "Fedora 7".
That recommendation was acceptable to the Board, and was passed along to Jesse as the release engineer. If it was a bit of a surprise to the rest of the community until the Test4 announcement went out, the fault there is mine and not Jesse's or anyone else's.
Setting aside the fact that that name is not acceptable for me as a board member we need to avoid such surprises. I don't know in which board meeting this was decided but I have missed the discussion or meeting. I am not finding fault with anyone but some public discussion should have happened in advisory board list or even here after getting input from Red Hat branding team.
FWIW, I think that calling the "previously Core" spin simply "Fedora" is fine. Think about a potential fedoraproject.org front page with a few download links:
This linking is good but we need a *concise distinct name* for the desktop/workstation/server spin. We need to know which particular spin a users have installed when trying to address questions or debug problems since the package set, defaults and behavior changes in between them.
I understand the challenge with naming the "prime" spin since unlike the other spins it covers a number of different functionalities as a upgrade path for previous users of Fedora Core but overloading the name "Fedora" for one of the spins is not a option. We need something more distinct.
Rahul
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora 7 Gnome Live CD Fedora 7 KDE Live CD Fedora 7 Everything
All of these are good names. You know what it is, just by looking at the name.
Except that none of the test releases of Fedora 7 called the GNOME live cd as that. look at the announcement or http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/. I have pointed this out several times before and this has not changed. Do you agree we need to call it by that name?
The answer, Rahul, is that "it depends". If you're talking about it to someone who doesn't know that there is a difference between Gnome and KDE, then you can tell them about what a "live CD" is and hand them whichever one you want, and they go about their merry way, and sometime later on in their Linux education they'll learn about how there are multiple desktop options.
For a long time Linux user who just wants to see the list of "all available spins of Fedora 7", you have to spell it out specifically.
Under "Get Fedora" you can have two options.
1) I am new to Linux -- help me figure out which version of Fedora I want. 2) I am an expert -- just give me the full list and leave me alone.
Setting aside the fact that that name is not acceptable for me as a board member we need to avoid such surprises. I don't know in which board meeting this was decided but I have missed the discussion or meeting. I am not finding fault with anyone but some public discussion should have happened in advisory board list or even here after getting input from Red Hat branding team.
Understood.
Max Spevack wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora 7 Gnome Live CD Fedora 7 KDE Live CD Fedora 7 Everything
All of these are good names. You know what it is, just by looking at the name.
Except that none of the test releases of Fedora 7 called the GNOME live cd as that. look at the announcement or http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/. I have pointed this out several times before and this has not changed. Do you agree we need to call it by that name?
The answer, Rahul, is that "it depends".
To make it clear, in the website and the announcement do you agree that we need to call it the "Fedora 7 GNOME live CD"?
Rahul
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:41:06 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
The answer, Rahul, is that "it depends".
To make it clear, in the website and the announcement do you agree that we need to call it the "Fedora 7 GNOME live CD"?
No. The Fedora Live is simple enough. It is different from the Fedora KDE Live.
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:41:06 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
The answer, Rahul, is that "it depends".
To make it clear, in the website and the announcement do you agree that we need to call it the "Fedora 7 GNOME live CD"?
No. The Fedora Live is simple enough. It is different from the Fedora KDE Live.
Why not Fedora 7 "Standard" LiveCD/Install?
"Standard" has good, clear, non-techie-comprehendable connotations and is something that other variants are compared to. It is not the best or the worst ... just the most "known" reference.
Fedora 7 GNOME LiveCD can be reserved for someone who wants to put out a "pure" GNOME spin. Other variants can be named after how they vary from the standard.
/Mike
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
To make it clear, in the website and the announcement do you agree that we need to call it the "Fedora 7 GNOME live CD"?
No, it doesn't. This was discussed at length earlier, but you don't seem to be able to accept the outcome.
Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
To make it clear, in the website and the announcement do you agree that we need to call it the "Fedora 7 GNOME live CD"?
No, it doesn't. This was discussed at length earlier, but you don't seem to be able to accept the outcome.
I wasn't ask you or Jesse Keating. Would you kindly let Max Spevack answer what I asked him specifically please? I am not accepting what Jesse Keating told me because his reasoning is flawed and is based on him not looking at KDE live cd and assuming that it is a pure KDE desktop.
Rahul
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I wasn't ask you or Jesse Keating. Would you kindly let Max Spevack answer what I asked him specifically please? I am not accepting what Jesse Keating told me because his reasoning is flawed and is based on him not looking at KDE live cd and assuming that it is a pure KDE desktop.
Let me try this again. And once again, I'll present it in the way that I sort of envision a "Get Fedora" web page looking:
========
GET FEDORA 7
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, office documents, etc.). --> We send them to the "Fedora 7 Live CD", the one based on Gnome
I am a developer who wants a general purpose workstation (desktop, programming tools, etc.). --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7", previously called Prime
I am an advanced user who wants to be able to pick and choose from all available Fedora packages. --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7 Everything"
I am an expert, and I want to build my own custom spin of Fedora. --> We send them to docs that explain how.
I am a curious user, and I want to browse/download custom Fedora spins that other people or groups have created. --> We send them to a page, which includes the KDE Live CD, and other custom spins that the Board has blessed.
========
This is the way I think Fedora 7's "presentation" should be done. I'm open to suggestions, but in general, this is what I think is right. And to the extent that I am involved in building the web pages for Fedora 7, this is the sort of thing that I will push for.
Does this help, Rahul?
--Max
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 11:25 -0400, Max Spevack wrote:
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, office documents, etc.). --> We send them to the "Fedora 7 Live CD", the one based on Gnome
OOo isn't on the Live CD, so I wouldn't make a very big play for office document support with it, perhaps just...
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, email)
C.
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Caolan McNamara wrote:
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 11:25 -0400, Max Spevack wrote:
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, office documents, etc.). --> We send them to the "Fedora 7 Live CD", the one based on Gnome
OOo isn't on the Live CD, so I wouldn't make a very big play for office document support with it, perhaps just...
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, email)
Abiword, Gnumeric, they are on it. There are "office applications".
But I get what you're saying... we can play with the wording. :-)
--Max
On Monday 30 April 2007 08:25:15 Max Spevack wrote:
I am an advanced user who wants to be able to pick and choose from all available Fedora packages. --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7 Everything"
What might be better here is directions on how to enable the Everything repo from your Fedora spin installer. I was hoping that we wouldn't be producing isos of the Everything spin as that takes up a LOT of space.
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
What might be better here is directions on how to enable the Everything repo from your Fedora spin installer. I was hoping that we wouldn't be producing isos of the Everything spin as that takes up a LOT of space.
I am of the opinion that doing an Everything spin will give those "on the fence" on whether to come to Linux or Fedora the opportunity to try out what Linux really has to offer. The real question is, do we want more people to come to Fedora? or do we want to send people to Vista.
Enabling the everything repo is a great solution it it is simple. If it is harder than clicking a few buttons though, it will be too difficult to sell it as an ideal way of adding all the tools.
A humble opinion.
Clint Savage
Max Spevack wrote:
========
GET FEDORA 7
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, office documents, etc.). --> We send them to the "Fedora 7 Live CD", the one based on Gnome
I am a developer who wants a general purpose workstation (desktop, programming tools, etc.). --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7", previously called Prime
I still don't consider the name "Fedora 7" is not distinct enough for a spin. If a user saying I installed the Fedora 7 release he could very well be referring to one of the other spins instead. Other than I would drop "previously called Prime" part since that was used only in test releases and the wider audience wouldn't have heard about it.
I am an advanced user who wants to be able to pick and choose from all available Fedora packages. --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7 Everything"
I am an expert, and I want to build my own custom spin of Fedora. --> We send them to docs that explain how.
I am a curious user, and I want to browse/download custom Fedora spins that other people or groups have created. --> We send them to a page, which includes the KDE Live CD, and other custom spins that the Board has blessed.
This kinda makes the KDE Live CD live in a obscure corner which I don't prefer. I understand the need to avoid confusion. My alternative suggestion is:
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, emails etc) -> Fedora GNOME Live images I am a basic desktop user who prefers KDE -> Fedora KDE Live images
Rahul
On Monday 30 April 2007 09:15:19 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I still don't consider the name "Fedora 7" is not distinct enough for a spin. If a user saying I installed the Fedora 7 release he could very well be referring to one of the other spins instead. Other than I would drop "previously called Prime" part since that was used only in test releases and the wider audience wouldn't have heard about it.
To be quite honest, the need to know what spin you installed is rather low. The important part is what software you are running (or not running). Especially since every install either during or after install has access to the entire Fedora package collection, it really matters not where they came from. Only in specific cases of install time issues does it matter if they were on a Live image or a full spin, and in even more rare cases will it matter which particular live or spin they are using. Little enough that as one of the people to be getting such bug reports, I'm perfectly happy with asking for them to clarify some information.
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
To be quite honest, the need to know what spin you installed is rather low.
<snip>
Little enough that as one of the people to be getting such bug reports, I'm perfectly happy with asking for them to clarify some information.
I double dog dare you to sit in #fedora on release week helping to gather enough information on oddball problems for filable bugreports during the first week after release. No hiding behind the clunky bugzilla interface to shield you from technically inept users. On no, you need to come back to the trenches armed with a backpack full of teeth-extractors and 'help' users troubleshoot these rare cases under live-fire conditions.
-jef"Better you than me, I'm too scared to enter #fedora on release weeks"spaleta
On 4/30/07, Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com wrote:
Let me try this again. And once again, I'll present it in the way that I sort of envision a "Get Fedora" web page looking:
========
GET FEDORA 7
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
<snip>
Does this help, Rahul?
I like the effort to guide people to an install image via user categorization. Would it also be possible to add a page for each spin that holds the package names and descriptions of included components (ie the base package description not the descriptions for each and every subpackage from an SRPM) for the more discriminating/pedantic/obsessive-compulsive set of users?
Maybe wrap those links into text like this: "Can't decide? Want a closer a look as to what's on each spin? Browse the included software here"
On Monday 30 April 2007 10:21:45 Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I like the effort to guide people to an install image via user categorization. Would it also be possible to add a page for each spin that holds the package names and descriptions of included components (ie the base package description not the descriptions for each and every subpackage from an SRPM) for the more discriminating/pedantic/obsessive-compulsive set of users?
Maybe wrap those links into text like this: "Can't decide? Want a closer a look as to what's on each spin? Browse the included software here"
Sounds great! Who's going to do it?
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
Sounds great! Who's going to do it?
when's it needed by?
-jef
On 4/30/07, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
Sounds great! Who's going to do it?
when's it needed by?
Additionally, can you give me a text version of the binary package listing for each spin? I'm not sure where to find the list, and if the only way to get it is for me to download all the spins myself, I should be able to get the F7 version done by F8 release. Hopefully there's a way to get the included package list for each spin in a more succinct manner.
-jef
On Monday 30 April 2007 10:39:39 Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Additionally, can you give me a text version of the binary package listing for each spin? I'm not sure where to find the list, and if the only way to get it is for me to download all the spins myself, I should be able to get the F7 version done by F8 release. Hopefully there's a way to get the included package list for each spin in a more succinct manner.
You could do a directory listing of the exploaded tree...
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
You could do a directory listing of the exploaded tree...
There are exploded trees for each currently identified spins on the mirrors? Including the livecds? I poked at download.fedoraproject.org, its not clear to me that such an explode tree exists for anything but the 'spin formally known as prime.' Sounds to me like I'm gonna have to download all the spins locally and explode them.. which will take a while with my rocking DSL :->
Isn't there something in the way of a list of packages included in the image generated when the spins are built that could be captured? I'd like to think we could prep a useful package/description listing somewhat automatically moving forward for people wanting to do custom spins if i script this right..but it pretty much depends on having an accurate listing of alteast the included binary packages.
-jef"I say we take a page out of Prince's playbook and we re-name Prime with some funky looking single character... i vote for runic letter Fehu"spaleta
On Monday 30 April 2007 10:56:51 Jeff Spaleta wrote:
There are exploded trees for each currently identified spins on the mirrors? Including the livecds? I poked at download.fedoraproject.org, its not clear to me that such an explode tree exists for anything but the 'spin formally known as prime.' Sounds to me like I'm gonna have to download all the spins locally and explode them.. which will take a while with my rocking DSL :->
Isn't there something in the way of a list of packages included in the image generated when the spins are built that could be captured? I'd like to think we could prep a useful package/description listing somewhat automatically moving forward for people wanting to do custom spins if i script this right..but it pretty much depends on having an accurate listing of alteast the included binary packages.
Good point, the LiveCD doesn't have it.
Theoretically we could get a listing of packages. It can change slightly due to dep changes or comps changes, but we should be able to get a final list from the RC trees and update it as we go. Please continue to hound the release team for this as we get closer to release time.
On 4/30/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
Theoretically we could get a listing of packages. It can change slightly due to dep changes or comps changes, but we should be able to get a final list from the RC trees and update it as we go.
Can you document how to generate that list so we can add it to the custom image creation instructions. I'd like to offer up a set of scripts which takes a list of packages and prepares formatted text concerning information gleamed from -qi like calls to repoquery so even people making custom spins can easily produce the at-a-glance info.
Actually now that I think about it... is it possible to bastardize repoview a little bit and have that framework do this for us? Would it be possible to turn crank that list of packages into something repoview can consume?
-jef
On Monday 30 April 2007 11:13:13 Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Can you document how to generate that list so we can add it to the custom image creation instructions.
Uh, ls ?
I'd like to offer up a set of scripts which takes a list of packages and prepares formatted text concerning information gleamed from -qi like calls to repoquery so even people making custom spins can easily produce the at-a-glance info.
Actually now that I think about it... is it possible to bastardize repoview a little bit and have that framework do this for us? Would it be possible to turn crank that list of packages into something repoview can consume?
repoview isn't currently being used during the compose process. I'd welcome a patch to pungi to do it, but not for F7. I'm sure livecd-tools would do the same.
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 11:10 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 11:13:13 Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I'd like to offer up a set of scripts which takes a list of packages and prepares formatted text concerning information gleamed from -qi like calls to repoquery so even people making custom spins can easily produce the at-a-glance info.
Actually now that I think about it... is it possible to bastardize repoview a little bit and have that framework do this for us? Would it be possible to turn crank that list of packages into something repoview can consume?
repoview isn't currently being used during the compose process. I'd welcome a patch to pungi to do it, but not for F7. I'm sure livecd-tools would do the same.
repoview doesn't really make sense for the livecd-tools case... the repos are all the packages; once they're installed, they're not a repo...
Jeremy
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 11:25 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack:
I am a basic desktop user (web browsing, office documents, etc.). --> We send them to the "Fedora 7 Live CD", the one based on Gnome
Ditch "basic".
I am a developer who wants a general purpose workstation (desktop, programming tools, etc.). --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7", previously called Prime
I am an advanced user who wants to be able to pick and choose from all available Fedora packages. --> We send them to the spin "Fedora 7 Everything"
Keep "advanced".
I am an expert, and I want to build my own custom spin of Fedora. --> We send them to docs that explain how.
I am a curious user, and I want to browse/download custom Fedora spins that other people or groups have created. --> We send them to a page, which includes the KDE Live CD, and other custom spins that the Board has blessed.
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 11:25 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack:
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
You could add something like: "Don't panic! You can easily add or remove software to Fedora after you have installed it. If you are not sure, choose the first option 'Desktop user'."
Then some LiveCD related disclaimer..
On 4/30/07, nodata lsof@nodata.co.uk wrote:
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 11:25 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack:
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
You could add something like: "Don't panic! You can easily add or remove software to Fedora after you have installed it. If you are not sure, choose the first option 'Desktop user'."
make sure you say... from the internet or the network. I'm sure we want to state emphatically that you can 'easily' add software without network access. I'm not even sure we want to suggest that you can easily add software over dialup. Pulling openoffice over dialup for example is a real treat :->
-jef"Needs to talk to someone about setting up a fedora mirror in Antarctica for me to use."spaleta
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 12:54 -0800 schrieb Jeff Spaleta:
On 4/30/07, nodata lsof@nodata.co.uk wrote:
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 11:25 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack:
There are several versions of Fedora 7 available, depending on your usage needs and technical skills.
You could add something like: "Don't panic! You can easily add or remove software to Fedora after you have installed it. If you are not sure, choose the first option 'Desktop user'."
make sure you say... from the internet or the network. I'm sure we want to state emphatically that you can 'easily' add software without network access. I'm not even sure we want to suggest that you can easily add software over dialup. Pulling openoffice over dialup for example is a real treat :->
-jef"Needs to talk to someone about setting up a fedora mirror in Antarctica for me to use."spaleta
Ah yes. I suppose someone will soon ask for a tool for easily creating Presto-ised update CDs for those dial-up based Antarcticans..
On 4/30/07, nodata lsof@nodata.co.uk wrote:
Ah yes. I suppose someone will soon ask for a tool for easily creating Presto-ised update CDs for those dial-up based Antarcticans..
there's no point in presto based media really. If you are in a situation where you need media, then you need the full rpms on media, because you will inevitably need to install something new as a dep. Presto works to help you minimize bandwidth consumption.. but once you are relying on media in-hand deltarpms don't gain you anything at all.
-jef
Am Montag, den 30.04.2007, 13:29 -0800 schrieb Jeff Spaleta:
On 4/30/07, nodata lsof@nodata.co.uk wrote:
Ah yes. I suppose someone will soon ask for a tool for easily creating Presto-ised update CDs for those dial-up based Antarcticans..
there's no point in presto based media really. If you are in a situation where you need media, then you need the full rpms on media, because you will inevitably need to install something new as a dep. Presto works to help you minimize bandwidth consumption.. but once you are relying on media in-hand deltarpms don't gain you anything at all.
-jef
It's useful for multisession CDs. You could use a CDRW I suppose instead.
Max Spevack <mspevack <at> redhat.com> writes:
I am a curious user, and I want to browse/download custom Fedora spins that other people or groups have created. --> We send them to a page, which includes the KDE Live CD, and other custom spins that the Board has blessed.
So you want to relegate the KDE Live CD, one of the official spins agreed on during the F7 feature planning, to unofficial ("custom") status?
Kevin Kofler
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:24:47 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora 7 Gnome Live CD Fedora 7 KDE Live CD Fedora 7 Everything
All of these are good names. You know what it is, just by looking at the name.
Except that none of the test releases of Fedora 7 called the GNOME live cd as that. look at the announcement or http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/. I have pointed this out several times before and this has not changed. Do you agree we need to call it by that name?
Max may have been quick to type in answering the other questions and this was a simple typo. The "Gnome" LiveCD is not named as "Gnome" for the same reason that the Fedora spin is not named anything other than Fedora. It is the default and most suggested of the Live CDs and thus simply called the Fedora Live CD. The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
Jesse Keating wrote: . The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase
KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
Rahul
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:54:16 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
And yet it is specifically KDE, while the Fedora Live CD is specifically.... Fedora. The Desktop environment that Fedora wants to put forward as the default, the best foot forward.
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:54:16 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
And yet it is specifically KDE, while the Fedora Live CD is specifically.... Fedora.
And you don't consider KDE to be part of Fedora? KDE Live is mostly KDE programs and some GNOME, some GTK and other programs just like GNOME live cd. It has never been about purity of the desktop environment. Just different focus. Both of the desktop environments are part of Fedora. The GNOME live images are not anymore specifically about Fedora than the KDE live images.
The Desktop environment that Fedora wants to put forward as the
default, the best foot forward.
No. It's the desktop environment the GNOME team should be putting it's best foot forward. The KDE team should be putting it's best foot forward via the KDE live images (same for XFCE or fluxbox or whatever teams) and we in the Fedora project should be giving both these teams *neutral ground* to compete aggressively and fairly on winning over new users.
Rahul
PS: I am mostly using GNOME. This isn't my bias.
On Monday 30 April 2007 08:55:47 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
And you don't consider KDE to be part of Fedora? KDE Live is mostly KDE programs and some GNOME, some GTK and other programs just like GNOME live cd. It has never been about purity of the desktop environment. Just different focus. Both of the desktop environments are part of Fedora. The GNOME live images are not anymore specifically about Fedora than the KDE live images.
KDE is a part of Fedora, however the overwhelming evidence is that Fedora focuses on Gnome and GTK stacks. Almost all the Fedora upstream software that is graphical is built on gnome/gtk. It is the most integrated experience you can get. Using KDE is a less integrated less polished experience, and thus it is not our best foot forward.
The Desktop environment that Fedora wants to put forward as the
default, the best foot forward.
No. It's the desktop environment the GNOME team should be putting it's best foot forward. The KDE team should be putting it's best foot forward via the KDE live images (same for XFCE or fluxbox or whatever teams) and we in the Fedora project should be giving both these teams *neutral ground* to compete aggressively and fairly on winning over new users.
Except it's not the "GNOME" team. It's the Desktop team. The Desktop team is pushing a highly polished and integrated desktop, which currently happens to be around the GNOME desktop environment.
Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> writes:
KDE is a part of Fedora, however the overwhelming evidence is that Fedora focuses on Gnome and GTK stacks. Almost all the Fedora upstream software that is graphical is built on gnome/gtk. It is the most integrated experience you can get. Using KDE is a less integrated less polished experience, and thus it is not our best foot forward.
It's because of statements like this that Fedora has a bad reputation with the KDE community (just look at some of the comments at dot.kde.org). I'm doing my best to improve Fedora's reputation there, but statements like this from official people like you as the Release Engineer really ruin things.
How is KDE on Fedora less integrated? Why do you think people like Than Ngo, Rex Dieter, Sebastian Vahl or me work our behinds off to fix things like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228111 which is now finally fixed (thanks also to a developer from Pardus who made a one-line fix to my patch to get it to work instead of crashing)? (In fact, we have to specifically fix what your GNOME developers break, but that's another issue.)
We're really doing what we can to provide a well-integrated KDE desktop to Fedora users, I think it's unfair to us to call this "a less integrated less polished experience" and "not our best foot forward", and I also think it's Fedora's reputation you're ruining there (again, look at some of the comments at dot.kde.org, I'd be surprised if nobody is going to quote your above paragraph the next time Fedora is mentioned anywhere), not just KDE's and ours.
Kevin Kofler
On Monday 30 April 2007 20:44:03 Kevin Kofler wrote:
How is KDE on Fedora less integrated? Why do you think people like Than Ngo, Rex Dieter, Sebastian Vahl or me work our behinds off to fix things like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228111 which is now finally fixed (thanks also to a developer from Pardus who made a one-line fix to my patch to get it to work instead of crashing)? (In fact, we have to specifically fix what your GNOME developers break, but that's another issue.)
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK. Our work went into GDM to improve login experience. Our Fast User Switching is designed for gnome. I can go on and on. These aren't bad things, they're just the way they are.
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 20:44:03 Kevin Kofler wrote:
How is KDE on Fedora less integrated? Why do you think people like Than Ngo, Rex Dieter, Sebastian Vahl or me work our behinds off to fix things like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228111 which is now finally fixed (thanks also to a developer from Pardus who made a one-line fix to my patch to get it to work instead of crashing)? (In fact, we have to specifically fix what your GNOME developers break, but that's another issue.)
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK. Our work went into GDM to improve login experience. Our Fast User Switching is designed for gnome. I can go on and on. These aren't bad things, they're just the way they are.
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
On Tuesday 01 May 2007 12:13:55 alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
Modulo getting the firmware in place, try NetworkManager. Dead simple easy tool for using networks.
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 20:44:03 Kevin Kofler wrote:
How is KDE on Fedora less integrated? Why do you think people like Than Ngo, Rex Dieter, Sebastian Vahl or me work our behinds off to fix things like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228111 which is now finally fixed (thanks also to a developer from Pardus who made a one-line fix to my patch to get it to work instead of crashing)? (In fact, we have to specifically fix what your GNOME developers break, but that's another issue.)
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK. Our work went into GDM to improve login experience. Our Fast User Switching is designed for gnome. I can go on and on. These aren't bad things, they're just the way they are.
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.)
For the new driver, I think you need newer firmware. Unfortunately, the firmware for the Broadcom isn't freely redistributable and thus we can't ship one so it can work out of the box.
Jeremy
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
1) Install bcm43xx-fwcutter 2) Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of # See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2 3) Unpack the driver and cut out the firmware # tar -jxvf broadcom-wl-*.tar.bz2 # bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware broadcom-wl-*/kmod/wl_apsta.o
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
-w
2007/5/1, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The
network
tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no
problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much
as
wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2 3) Unpack the driver and cut out the firmware # tar -jxvf broadcom-wl-*.tar.bz2 # bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware broadcom-wl-*/kmod/wl_apsta.o
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
-w
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Thx for this feedback! i will document this on the french wiki for WiFi
http://doc.fedora-fr.org/Wifi http://www.fedora-fr.org/Wifi
What do you call newer driver ? is it related to chipset version ? (provided by a lspci output)
Nicolas (kwizart)
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Will Woods wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2 3) Unpack the driver and cut out the firmware # tar -jxvf broadcom-wl-*.tar.bz2 # bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware broadcom-wl-*/kmod/wl_apsta.o
I already have the firmware, but it is the older version. I will get the new one and see if that works.
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
What is the new driver name?
alan wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Will Woods wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2 3) Unpack the driver and cut out the firmware # tar -jxvf broadcom-wl-*.tar.bz2 # bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware broadcom-wl-*/kmod/wl_apsta.o
I already have the firmware, but it is the older version. I will get the new one and see if that works.
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
What is the new driver name?
Its in the subject. :)
(bcm43xx_mac80211)
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The network tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6 with no problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As much as wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The
network
tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6
with no
problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As
much as
wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
Works fine with the bcm4306 in my powerbook.
On 5/1/07, Jarod Wilson jwilson@redhat.com wrote:
Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.) I have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The
network
tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6
with no
problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems very old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As
much as
wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
Works fine with the bcm4306 in my powerbook.
It probably still won't work for my card. The card revision matters.
I found this statement online: "> There is a revision number which is the key for v4 suppport. You'll need
at least revision number 0x4 there for d80211 support. The older revisions 0x2 and 0x3 have to use the softmac stack."
My PCI card is a Linksys card with bcm4306 revision 3. Gak!
:-p
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Jarod Wilson jwilson@redhat.com wrote:
Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for Wireless.)
I
have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The
network
tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6
with no
problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list seems
very
old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As
much as
wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
Works fine with the bcm4306 in my powerbook.
It probably still won't work for my card. The card revision matters.
I found this statement online: "> There is a revision number which is the key for v4 suppport. You'll need
at least revision number 0x4 there for d80211 support. The older revisions 0x2 and 0x3 have to use the softmac stack."
My PCI card is a Linksys card with bcm4306 revision 3. Gak!
Gak is right. The laptop chipset I am trying to get working is a rev 3 as well.
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
On Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 pm alan wrote:
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
To be entirely frank (and having to say this sucks because of the large amount of work that has gone into making the native driver for Linux), I gave up even TRYING to get my laptop's wireless card (Broadcom bcm4320) and just used Ndiswrapper with the Windows driver.
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Kelly wrote:
On Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 pm alan wrote:
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
To be entirely frank (and having to say this sucks because of the large amount of work that has gone into making the native driver for Linux), I gave up even TRYING to get my laptop's wireless card (Broadcom bcm4320) and just used Ndiswrapper with the Windows driver.
The agrivating part of this is that it works fine in FC6 with the old firmware. This is a recient change that breaks anyone with the pre-4 chipset revision.
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 04:45:55PM -0700, alan wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Kelly wrote:
On Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 pm alan wrote:
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
To be entirely frank (and having to say this sucks because of the large amount of work that has gone into making the native driver for Linux), I gave up even TRYING to get my laptop's wireless card (Broadcom bcm4320) and just used Ndiswrapper with the Windows driver.
The agrivating part of this is that it works fine in FC6 with the old firmware. This is a recient change that breaks anyone with the pre-4 chipset revision.
Did you try blacklisting the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver?
On Tue, 1 May 2007, John W. Linville wrote:
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 04:45:55PM -0700, alan wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Kelly wrote:
On Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 pm alan wrote:
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
To be entirely frank (and having to say this sucks because of the large amount of work that has gone into making the native driver for Linux), I gave up even TRYING to get my laptop's wireless card (Broadcom bcm4320) and just used Ndiswrapper with the Windows driver.
The agrivating part of this is that it works fine in FC6 with the old firmware. This is a recient change that breaks anyone with the pre-4 chipset revision.
Did you try blacklisting the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver?
I will be tonight.
On Tue, 1 May 2007, John W. Linville wrote:
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 04:45:55PM -0700, alan wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Kelly wrote:
On Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:39 pm alan wrote:
Is there going to be an option for people with the older hardware or are we just screwed?
To be entirely frank (and having to say this sucks because of the large amount of work that has gone into making the native driver for Linux), I gave up even TRYING to get my laptop's wireless card (Broadcom bcm4320) and just used Ndiswrapper with the Windows driver.
The agrivating part of this is that it works fine in FC6 with the old firmware. This is a recient change that breaks anyone with the pre-4 chipset revision.
Did you try blacklisting the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver?
That finally worked. (After backreving the firmware and fixing the eth1 alias.) Also helps if you have a working wifi source to test off of. (The downtown free access is pretty worthless in Portland.)
Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Jarod Wilson jwilson@redhat.com wrote:
Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 09:13 -0700, alan wrote:
The network config tools need some work. (Especially for
Wireless.) I
have been trying to get my bcm4306 chipset wireless to work. The
network
tools don't see it. (And I have the firmware that I used on FC6
with no
problems.) The list of wireless cards in the drop down list
seems very
old. It needs to be updated to the currently supported list. (As
much as
wireless is at this point...)
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First
you
will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
Works fine with the bcm4306 in my powerbook.
It probably still won't work for my card. The card revision matters.
I found this statement online: "> There is a revision number which is the key for v4 suppport. You'll need
at least revision number 0x4 there for d80211 support. The older revisions 0x2 and 0x3 have to use the softmac stack."
My PCI card is a Linksys card with bcm4306 revision 3. Gak!
I swear my card is a revision 2, and Will Woods has a revision 1, and both of them work with the new driver and firmware. Excerpt from bug 233011:
Mar 19 16:04:55 albook kernel: bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 1, Type 2, Revision 1
Perhaps you have a type 1, revision 3? That, or the revision level in this case is something entirely different and I have no clue what I'm talking about. (Always a possibility! :)
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 02:25:26PM -0700, Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/1/07, Will Woods wwoods@redhat.com wrote:
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2
I'll try this, but I suspect it won't work, because I have a pretty old bcm4306 PCI card in my desktop machine. Last time I checked, my card isn't supported by the 4.x firmware. :-(
If that is true, then you will need to stick with the older driver (bcm43xx).
FWIW, the plan of record is for that driver (i.e. "bcm43xx") to be renamed (probably as "bcm4301") and ported to the same new mac80211 infrastructure as the newer driver (for now "bcm43xx-mac80211", eventually will be renamed to just "bcm43xx"). The PCI device table of bcm4301 will also be redacted to only refer to the older devices which require the version 3 firmware.
But, that will not probably not happen upstream in time for F7. I would be open to making that change just for Fedora if there is something resembling consensus that such would be better than the current "two drivers" situation...? Probably not worth it...?
John
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
But, that will not probably not happen upstream in time for F7. I would be open to making that change just for Fedora if there is something resembling consensus that such would be better than the current "two drivers" situation...? Probably not worth it...?
Two drivers claiming to support the same PCI ids == bad. If the fix is on its way upstream, I'm for shipping it slightly early.
Bill
On 5/2/07, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
But, that will not probably not happen upstream in time for F7. I would be open to making that change just for Fedora if there is something resembling consensus that such would be better than the current "two drivers" situation...? Probably not worth it...?
Two drivers claiming to support the same PCI ids == bad. If the fix is on its way upstream, I'm for shipping it slightly early.
Cool! The 4.0 firmware works! The dmesg output claims the bcm4306 PCI card is: "Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2"
Bill, it does appear that the LiveCD is shipping with both bcm43xx and bcm43xx_mac80211 configured to handle this device.
Okay, here's the scoop. I booted the F7t4 LiveCD on my nForce2-based desktop with the bcm4306. I then did the following steps:
Downloaded the 4.0 firmware to ~fedora (Obviously, I needed an ethernet connection at this point). Then: yum install bcm43xx-fwcutter bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware ~fedora/wl_apsta.o echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist modprobe -r bcm43xx modprobe -r ieee80211softmac modprobe -r ieee80211_crypt modprobe -r ieee80211 modprobe -r bcm43xx_mac80211 modprobe bcm43xx_mac80211
Then, configure my WIFI connection through NetworkManager and I'm golden. I am currently sending this note to you through resulting the connection. I'm not sure if WPA works. I have a WPA2-enabled Airport Extreme in the basement, and I am not seeing it in the NetworkManager AP list.
I must say, it is really neat that I can get this working using the LiveCD and without even rebooting. Albeit, it would be better if I didn't have to jump through these hoops. Proprietary firmware... Grrr.
Here is the corresponding section of dmesg:
ssb: Sonics Silicon Backplane found on PCI device 0000:01:06.0 ssb: Core 0 found: ChipCommon (cc 0x800, rev 0x04, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 1 found: IEEE 802.11 (cc 0x812, rev 0x05, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 2 found: PCMCIA (cc 0x80D, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 3 found: V90 (cc 0x807, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 4 found: PCI (cc 0x804, rev 0x09, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Switching to ChipCommon core, index 0 ssb: Switching to PCI core, index 4 bcm43xx_mac80211: Broadcom 4306 WLAN found ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned off wmaster0: Selected rate control algorithm 'simple' fw_core: created new fw device fw0 (0 config rom retries) ieee80211_crypt: registered algorithm 'NULL' ieee80211: 802.11 data/management/control stack, git-1.1.13 ieee80211: Copyright (C) 2004-2005 Intel Corporation jketreno@linux.intel.com bcm43xx driver ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [APCJ] enabled at IRQ 22 ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:06.0[A] -> Link [APCJ] -> GSI 22 (level, high) -> IRQ 16 PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:06.0 to 64 NET: Registered protocol family 10 lo: Disabled Privacy Extensions Mobile IPv6 bcm43xx_mac80211: Adding Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 2, Type 2, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found Radio: Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2 ssb: Switching to PCI core, index 4 ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Error: Microcode "bcm43xx_microcode5.fw" not available or load failed. bcm43xx_mac80211: Adding Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 2, Type 2, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found Radio: Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Error: Microcode "bcm43xx_microcode5.fw" not available or load failed. eth2: setting half-duplex. ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth2: link is not ready ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [APC4] enabled at IRQ 19 ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:03:00.0[A] -> Link [APC4] -> GSI 19 (level, high) -> IRQ 21 eth0: no IPv6 routers present bcm43xx_mac80211: Adding Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 2, Type 2, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found Radio: Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Error: Microcode "bcm43xx_microcode5.fw" not available or load failed.
At this point I: downloaded the 4.0 firmware to ~fedora yum install bcm43xx-fwcutter bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware ~fedora/wl_apsta.o echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist modprobe -r bcm43xx modprobe -r ieee80211softmac modprobe -r ieee80211_crypt modprobe -r ieee80211 modprobe -r bcm43xx_mac80211 modprobe bcm43xx_mac80211
bcm43xx_mac80211: Adding Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 2, Type 2, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found Radio: Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Loading firmware version 351.126 (2006-07-29 05:54:02) ssb: Switching to ChipCommon core, index 0 ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned on bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio enabled by hardware bcm43xx_mac80211: !WARNING! Idle-TSSI phy->cur_idle_tssi measuring failed. (cur=30, tgt=62). Disabling TX power adjustment. bcm43xx_mac80211: Chip initialized bcm43xx_mac80211: 30-bit DMA initialized bcm43xx_mac80211: Wireless interface started wmaster0: Does not support passive scan, disabled ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): wlan0: link is not ready ieee80211_crypt: unregistered algorithm 'NULL' bcm43xx_mac80211: Removing Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Wireless interface stopped bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0200 (RX) max used slots: 1/64 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x02A0 (TX) max used slots: 0/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0280 (TX) max used slots: 0/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0260 (TX) max used slots: 0/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0240 (TX) max used slots: 0/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0220 (TX) max used slots: 22/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: DMA-32 0x0200 (TX) max used slots: 0/128 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned off ssb: Switching to ChipCommon core, index 0 ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned off ACPI: PCI interrupt for device 0000:01:06.0 disabled ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:01:06.0[A] -> Link [APC1] -> GSI 16 (level, high) -> IRQ 20 ssb: Sonics Silicon Backplane found on PCI device 0000:01:06.0 ssb: Core 0 found: ChipCommon (cc 0x800, rev 0x04, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 1 found: IEEE 802.11 (cc 0x812, rev 0x05, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 2 found: PCMCIA (cc 0x80D, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 3 found: V90 (cc 0x807, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Core 4 found: PCI (cc 0x804, rev 0x09, vendor 0x4243) ssb: Switching to ChipCommon core, index 0 ssb: Switching to PCI core, index 4 bcm43xx_mac80211: Broadcom 4306 WLAN found ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned off wmaster0: Selected rate control algorithm 'simple' bcm43xx_mac80211: Adding Interface type 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found PHY: Analog 2, Type 2, Revision 2 bcm43xx_mac80211: Found Radio: Manuf 0x17F, Version 0x2050, Revision 2 ssb: Switching to PCI core, index 4 ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Loading firmware version 351.126 (2006-07-29 05:54:02) ssb: Switching to ChipCommon core, index 0 ssb: Switching to IEEE 802.11 core, index 1 bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio turned on bcm43xx_mac80211: Radio enabled by hardware bcm43xx_mac80211: !WARNING! Idle-TSSI phy->cur_idle_tssi measuring failed. (cur=30, tgt=62). Disabling TX power adjustment. bcm43xx_mac80211: Chip initialized bcm43xx_mac80211: 30-bit DMA initialized bcm43xx_mac80211: Wireless interface started wmaster0: Does not support passive scan, disabled ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): wlan0: link is not ready bcm43xx_mac80211: Using hardware based encryption for keyidx: 0, mac: ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff wlan0: Initial auth_alg=0 wlan0: authenticate with AP 00:06:25:54:a2:0c wlan0: authenticate with AP 00:06:25:54:a2:0c wlan0: RX authentication from 00:06:25:54:a2:0c (alg=0 transaction=2 status=0) wlan0: authenticated wlan0: associate with AP 00:06:25:54:a2:0c wlan0: RX AssocResp from 00:06:25:54:a2:0c (capab=0x11 status=0 aid=2) wlan0: associated ADDRCONF(NETDEV_CHANGE): wlan0: link becomes ready wlan0: duplicate address detected! eth0: link down. wlan0: duplicate address detected!
Will Woods wrote:
Yeah, you'll want to use NetworkManager to manage the device. First you will need firmware:
- Install bcm43xx-fwcutter
- Get a Broadcom-distributed driver to cut the firmware out of
# See the list in /usr/share/doc/bcm43xx-fwcutter-006/README # For the newer driver you'll need 4.x firmware. I recommend: http://downloads.openwrt.org/sources/broadcom-wl-4.80.53.0.tar.bz2 3) Unpack the driver and cut out the firmware # tar -jxvf broadcom-wl-*.tar.bz2 # bcm43xx-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware broadcom-wl-*/kmod/wl_apsta.o
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
-w
It should but it doesn't for me. Neither anaconda nor installed system created a device for the wireless card, while on FC6 and F7T1 LiveCD it worked without problems. These steps only lead to initializing the card by the driver (or what does it do), but device (even after reboot) isn't still there (i.e. for me that the eth1 device does not exist). I attach dmesg and lspci output. Any clues?
Thanks, Martin
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 01:48:53PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Will Woods wrote:
You might have to blacklist the old driver first if you're using the new one:
# echo 'blacklist bcm43xx' >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
But at this point you should be able to reboot and have working wireless. Hooray!
It should but it doesn't for me. Neither anaconda nor installed system created a device for the wireless card, while on FC6 and F7T1 LiveCD it worked without problems. These steps only lead to initializing the card by the driver (or what does it do), but device (even after reboot) isn't still there (i.e. for me that the eth1 device does not exist). I attach dmesg and lspci output. Any clues?
You have a bcm4318 device. This is probably the most problematic of the bcm43xx devices. FWIW, the ones I have work fine. But, others have problems. Does your work better if you get physically close to the AP (2-3 meters or less)?
You may wish to continue using the bcm43xx driver, and blacklist the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver instead. If so then you will also need to go back to v3.x firmware.
Hth!
John
John W. Linville wrote:
You have a bcm4318 device. This is probably the most problematic of the bcm43xx devices. FWIW, the ones I have work fine. But, others have problems. Does your work better if you get physically close to the AP (2-3 meters or less)?
In FC6 it did, at least with older kernels. About two or so months ago it started to work without problems... But on rawhide I don't even have an eth1 device...
You may wish to continue using the bcm43xx driver, and blacklist the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver instead. If so then you will also need to go back to v3.x firmware.
Hth!
John
Thanks I'll try the old one... I have the firmware I used in FC6 backuped. I'll see what it'll do.
Thanks, Martin
Some new info...
Still playing with the new driver (bcm43xx_mac80211) I discovered 1. ifconfig -a lists among other devices wlan0, however ifup cannot use it (complains about missing configuration) 2. after I tried creating new wireless network with NetworkManager it stayed connected to wired network, however it detected some wireless networks here. So it seems the wifi is working, the wifi driver as well, only configuration for ifup is missing. Why? Is it some new "feature" or is it just a bug?
Thanks, Martin
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 06:07:48PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Some new info...
Still playing with the new driver (bcm43xx_mac80211) I discovered
- ifconfig -a lists among other devices wlan0, however ifup cannot use it
(complains about missing configuration)
OK, I missed the point of you complaining about "eth1" missing... :-)
- after I tried creating new wireless network with NetworkManager it
stayed connected to wired network, however it detected some wireless networks here. So it seems the wifi is working, the wifi driver as well, only configuration for ifup is missing. Why? Is it some new "feature" or is it just a bug?
Did you setup wlan0 w/ system-config-network? If not, ifup'ing it won't help.
John
John W. Linville wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 06:07:48PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Some new info...
Still playing with the new driver (bcm43xx_mac80211) I discovered
- ifconfig -a lists among other devices wlan0, however ifup cannot use it
(complains about missing configuration)
OK, I missed the point of you complaining about "eth1" missing... :-)
- after I tried creating new wireless network with NetworkManager it
stayed connected to wired network, however it detected some wireless networks here. So it seems the wifi is working, the wifi driver as well, only configuration for ifup is missing. Why? Is it some new "feature" or is it just a bug?
Did you setup wlan0 w/ system-config-network? If not, ifup'ing it won't help.
John
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Thanks, Martin
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 06:55:11PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
John W. Linville wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 06:07:48PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Some new info...
Still playing with the new driver (bcm43xx_mac80211) I discovered
- ifconfig -a lists among other devices wlan0, however ifup cannot use
it (complains about missing configuration)
OK, I missed the point of you complaining about "eth1" missing... :-)
- after I tried creating new wireless network with NetworkManager it
stayed connected to wired network, however it detected some wireless networks here. So it seems the wifi is working, the wifi driver as well, only configuration for ifup is missing. Why? Is it some new "feature" or is it just a bug?
Did you setup wlan0 w/ system-config-network? If not, ifup'ing it won't help.
John
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Hmmm...my wlan0 shows-up there automatically...Bill?
John
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Hmmm...my wlan0 shows-up there automatically...Bill?
kudzu -p -c network? (Or does s-c-network use HAL these days?)
Bill
Bill Nottingham wrote:
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Hmmm...my wlan0 shows-up there automatically...Bill?
kudzu -p -c network? (Or does s-c-network use HAL these days?)
Bill
# kudzu -p -c network - class: NETWORK bus: PCI detached: 0 device: eth1 driver: bcm43xx desc: "Broadcom Corporation BCM4318 [AirForce One 54g] 802.11g Wireless LAN Controller" vendorId: 14e4 deviceId: 4318 subVendorId: 1468 subDeviceId: 0312 pciType: 1 pcidom: 0 pcibus: 6 pcidev: 2 pcifn: 0 - class: NETWORK bus: PCI detached: 0 device: eth0 driver: b44 desc: "Broadcom Corporation BCM4401-B0 100Base-TX" network.hwaddr: 00:16:d4:1a:34:78 vendorId: 14e4 deviceId: 170c subVendorId: 1025 subDeviceId: 0090 pciType: 1 pcidom: 0 pcibus: 6 pcidev: 1 pcifn: 0
But still nothing in system-config-network. Also, I think under driver there should be bmc43xx_mac80211 since I have bcm43xx blacklisted and the NetworkManager indeed uses the bmc43xx_mac80211 driver. This behaviour seems quite weird to me.
Thanks, Martin
Martin Sourada wrote:
Bill Nottingham wrote:
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Hmmm...my wlan0 shows-up there automatically...Bill?
kudzu -p -c network? (Or does s-c-network use HAL these days?)
Bill
what about adding alias wlan0 bmc43xx_mac80211 to modprobe.conf ? does system-config network detect it than?
dragoran wrote:
Martin Sourada wrote:
Bill Nottingham wrote:
John W. Linville (linville@redhat.com) said:
Hm... when I try to add new device in system-config-network I can choose only eth* (though I can write there wlan0 manually), but I don't know which adapter to choose, because mine does not seems to be listed there... I think it should be detected and set automatically like in previous versions of fedora.
Hmmm...my wlan0 shows-up there automatically...Bill?
kudzu -p -c network? (Or does s-c-network use HAL these days?)
Bill
what about adding alias wlan0 bmc43xx_mac80211 to modprobe.conf ? does system-config network detect it than?
Hm... the system-config-network then shows it in the hardware list and allows me to create a device. If I run ifup wlan0 however, I get this error: Error for wireless request "Set Bit Rate" (8B20) : SET failed on device wlan0 ; Operation not supported.
And it fails to connect - but that is OK, since I don't have there any wireless network I have access to...
Maybe I should try eth1, as kudzu find it as eth1? Or is wireless supposed to be handled by NetworkManager completely?
Thanks, Martin
Martin Sourada wrote:
Hm... the system-config-network then shows it in the hardware list and allows me to create a device. If I run ifup wlan0 however, I get this error: Error for wireless request "Set Bit Rate" (8B20) : SET failed on device wlan0 ; Operation not supported.
And it fails to connect - but that is OK, since I don't have there any wireless network I have access to...
Maybe I should try eth1, as kudzu find it as eth1? Or is wireless supposed to be handled by NetworkManager completely?
Thanks, Martin
I am still trying the bcm43xx_mac80211 driver. Using the NetworkManager I cannot connect to the network I have access to, with ifup wlan0 (with the edited modprobe.conf to have alias wlan0 bcm43xx_mac80211 set) same error as in my previous message (quoted above) and no luck with connection (and yes, I set the wlan0 device settings in network manager correctly). Any ideas? Tomorrow I plan to try out the bcm43xx driver to see if thinks go better with it. I'll let you know the result.
Well, and one another thing: output of iwconfig: # iwconfig wlan0 Warning: Driver for device wlan0 has been compiled with version 22 of Wireless Extension, while this program supports up to version 20. Some things may be broken...
wlan0 IEEE 802.11g ESSID:"" Mode:Managed Frequency:2.412 GHz Access Point: Not-Associated Retry min limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr=2346 B Encryption key:off Link Quality:0 Signal level:0 Noise level:0 Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0 Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0
Is the warning worth noticing or is it OK? Can it cause some of the problems I have?
Thanks, Martin
Martin Sourada (martin.sourada@seznam.cz) said:
# kudzu -p -c network
class: NETWORK bus: PCI detached: 0 device: eth1 driver: bcm43xx desc: "Broadcom Corporation BCM4318 [AirForce One 54g] 802.11g Wireless LAN Controller" vendorId: 14e4 deviceId: 4318 subVendorId: 1468 subDeviceId: 0312 pciType: 1 pcidom: 0 pcibus: 6 pcidev: 2 pcifn: 0
class: NETWORK bus: PCI detached: 0 device: eth0 driver: b44 desc: "Broadcom Corporation BCM4401-B0 100Base-TX" network.hwaddr: 00:16:d4:1a:34:78 vendorId: 14e4 deviceId: 170c subVendorId: 1025 subDeviceId: 0090 pciType: 1 pcidom: 0 pcibus: 6 pcidev: 1 pcifn: 0
But still nothing in system-config-network.
Is the device you're looking for eth1 or something else?
Also, I think under driver there should be bmc43xx_mac80211 since I have bcm43xx blacklisted and the NetworkManager indeed uses the bmc43xx_mac80211 driver. This behaviour seems quite weird to me.
Shouldn't matter.
Bill
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Is the device you're looking for eth1 or something else?
Yes, that's it. I should have mention it...
Martin
Also, I think under driver there should be bmc43xx_mac80211 since I have bcm43xx blacklisted and the NetworkManager indeed uses the bmc43xx_mac80211 driver. This behaviour seems quite weird to me.
Shouldn't matter.
Bill
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 09:22:51PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Is the device you're looking for eth1 or something else?
Yes, that's it. I should have mention it...
Well, the answer depends on which driver claims the device. The bcm43xx driver will call it "eth1" but the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver will call it "wlan0".
I mentioned this situation earlier (maybe in this same thread). Unfortunately, upstream isn't ready to move "bcm43xx" to "bcm4301" (and make the accomanying PCI ID changes) yet. I'll have to noodle on this.
John
On 5/7/07, John W. Linville linville@redhat.com wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 09:22:51PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Is the device you're looking for eth1 or something else?
Yes, that's it. I should have mention it...
Well, the answer depends on which driver claims the device. The bcm43xx driver will call it "eth1" but the bcm43xx-mac80211 driver will call it "wlan0".
I mentioned this situation earlier (maybe in this same thread). Unfortunately, upstream isn't ready to move "bcm43xx" to "bcm4301" (and make the accomanying PCI ID changes) yet. I'll have to noodle on this.
I am not sure that there is still a reason to keep the older driver around. It works on my old bmc4306 rev. 2. Do we know there are still bcm43xx devices that the new driver won't work for?
Also, the issue of having both drivers looking to handle the same device IDs hasn't been resolved. That is, I've heard that raised as an issue.
Miles
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 02:01:45PM -0700, Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/7/07, John W. Linville linville@redhat.com wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 09:22:51PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: I mentioned this situation earlier (maybe in this same thread). Unfortunately, upstream isn't ready to move "bcm43xx" to "bcm4301" (and make the accomanying PCI ID changes) yet. I'll have to noodle on this.
I am not sure that there is still a reason to keep the older driver around. It works on my old bmc4306 rev. 2. Do we know there are still bcm43xx devices that the new driver won't work for?
Yes. BCM4301 and BCM4303 don't work with the new driver. This is because they don't have the memory resources required to load the v4.x firmware required by the new driver.
John
On Mon, 7 May 2007, John W. Linville wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 02:01:45PM -0700, Miles Lane wrote:
On 5/7/07, John W. Linville linville@redhat.com wrote:
On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 09:22:51PM +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: I mentioned this situation earlier (maybe in this same thread). Unfortunately, upstream isn't ready to move "bcm43xx" to "bcm4301" (and make the accomanying PCI ID changes) yet. I'll have to noodle on this.
I am not sure that there is still a reason to keep the older driver around. It works on my old bmc4306 rev. 2. Do we know there are still bcm43xx devices that the new driver won't work for?
Yes. BCM4301 and BCM4303 don't work with the new driver. This is because they don't have the memory resources required to load the v4.x firmware required by the new driver.
My HP laptop has one of these chipsets. Please do not remove the old driver. I can provide PCI id of my chipset if needed.
Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> writes:
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK.
That's undeniable fact, but from there to saying that KDE "is not our best foot forward", it's a big leap. Heck, Mandriva uses KDE as their default desktop and yet most of their admin tools at least used to be written in GTK+ (I'm not sure if they still are). Seamless integration is not simply a matter what toolkit the apps use.
IMHO, the best way to achieve integration is to use a common theme for both GNOME and KDE. And in fact Fedora even ships one, too bad it's no longer the default. :-( But I may well be the only one still using Bluecurve...
Our work went into GDM to improve login experience. Our Fast User Switching is designed for gnome. I can go on and on.
Yes, upstream GNOME is getting new features, and yes, several Red Hat / Fedora developers are actively involved in that. But this doesn't mean nobody is working on adding features to KDE. (Just look at what's being done for KDE 4.0, for example.) Probably even some of the same features. (KDM already supports user images, for example, and has for some time already.) The fact that the work isn't done by Red Hat developers doesn't mean it isn't good software for Fedora to ship.
Kevin Kofler
Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> writes:
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK.
Oh, and NetworkManager is UI-independent and also has a KDE frontend, KNetworkManager, which is already in Extras.
Kevin Kofler
On Tuesday 01 May 2007 05:26:25 Jesse Keating wrote:
All our system config tools are GTK. The installer is GTK. Our applications like gnome-power-manager and NetworkManager and smolt and etc.. are all GTK.
If you referring to GTK in the sense of look and feel, this is is odd. I don't consider GTK to be Gnome the same way that I don't consider qt-based applications to be KDE.
I reserve that classification to a closer integration with the desktop, AFAIK this is not the case of the system-tools. :-)
We are not in the nineties anymore. ;-)
Our work went into GDM to improve login experience. Our Fast User Switching is designed for gnome. I can go on and on. These aren't bad things, they're just the way they are.
OK. Nevertheless they are small comparative advantages of GNOME related with KDE in Fedora. :-) That is why there Fedora KDE users after all, we are not masochists, you know? ;-)
Notice that the point that Kevin stressed remains, public relations are important and you words can be placed out of context quite easily. :-) Things have been improving a lot, and nowadays I can notice that I am using Fedora no matter what the DE I am using (even on XFCE FWIW) and that is more visible to me than the differences between the DE's.
So even if I understand what you mean the communication is important and believe me KDE in Fedora feels like Fedora, and sometimes this seems a difficult message to pass, both inside and outside Fedora. :-)
Kevin, I am a gnome user so I have not noticed it until now... but whats the reason the kde live cd is i386 only? why no x86_64 one? (might be to late to change but just want to know the reason...) if its space the x86_64 livecd is already bigger than 700MB so that can't be the reason.
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 12:37 +0200, dragoran wrote:
Kevin, I am a gnome user so I have not noticed it until now... but whats the reason the kde live cd is i386 only? why no x86_64 one? (might be to late to change but just want to know the reason...) if its space the x86_64 livecd is already bigger than 700MB so that can't be the reason.
Time mostly... to do an x86_64 one needed more time for more spinning and more testing. The hope was to be able to do so with test4 (and thus to be able to get more eyes on it prior to the final), but there just weren't enough hours in the day to get there.
Jeremy
Jeremy Katz wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-01 at 12:37 +0200, dragoran wrote:
Kevin, I am a gnome user so I have not noticed it until now... but whats the reason the kde live cd is i386 only? why no x86_64 one? (might be to late to change but just want to know the reason...) if its space the x86_64 livecd is already bigger than 700MB so that can't be the reason.
Time mostly... to do an x86_64 one needed more time for more spinning and more testing. The hope was to be able to do so with test4 (and thus to be able to get more eyes on it prior to the final), but there just weren't enough hours in the day to get there.
ok... sounds F8 stuff than ;)
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 03:44:03AM +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Jesse Keating <jkeating <at> redhat.com> writes:
KDE is a part of Fedora, however the overwhelming evidence is that Fedora focuses on Gnome and GTK stacks. Almost all the Fedora upstream software that is graphical is built on gnome/gtk. It is the most integrated experience you can get. Using KDE is a less integrated less polished experience, and thus it is not our best foot forward.
It's because of statements like this that Fedora has a bad reputation with the KDE community (just look at some of the comments at dot.kde.org). I'm doing my best to improve Fedora's reputation there, but statements like this from official people like you as the Release Engineer really ruin things.
How is KDE on Fedora less integrated? Why do you think people like Than Ngo, Rex Dieter, Sebastian Vahl or me work our behinds off to fix things like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228111 which is now finally fixed (thanks also to a developer from Pardus who made a one-line fix to my patch to get it to work instead of crashing)? (In fact, we have to specifically fix what your GNOME developers break, but that's another issue.)
We're really doing what we can to provide a well-integrated KDE desktop to Fedora users, I think it's unfair to us to call this "a less integrated less polished experience" and "not our best foot forward", and I also think it's Fedora's reputation you're ruining there (again, look at some of the comments at dot.kde.org, I'd be surprised if nobody is going to quote your above paragraph the next time Fedora is mentioned anywhere), not just KDE's and ours.
Hello Kevin,
as distributors we are responsible for integrating software and making sure the overall setup stays modular and supports as many as possible setups.
Just look at the gnome live-cd which e.g. uses again smaller office apps and not only openoffice. So we do support more than one version of things and have always done so in the past. This is different from then selecting a "good enough subset" of Open Source apps we include at all. Also we ship sendmail/postfix/exim with sendmail as default and all of them receiving bug-fixes, updates and full integration.
KDE is requested and used by lots of Fedora users and also by RHEL customers and partners, so there is no question about KDE support at Red Hat. That's for KDE itself as well as other components of the OS.
I think the gnome/KDE split introduced in F7 is pretty unfortunate as it opens up the gnome/KDE discussion again, instead of supporting the integration and bug-fixing part. Fedora needs to be an open platform where Open Source projects get reviewed, tested, integrated and moved along.
regards,
Florian La Roche
Kevin Kofler
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Florian La Roche wrote:
I think the gnome/KDE split introduced in F7 is pretty unfortunate as it opens up the gnome/KDE discussion again, instead of supporting the integration and bug-fixing part. Fedora needs to be an open platform where Open Source projects get reviewed, tested, integrated and moved along.
What the different spins give is the flexibility that benefits end users while providing integration at the repo level because of the upcoming merge. It also gives developers the freedom to do that that make sense for only one desktop environment instead of being the base common denominator just to be somewhat neutral.
If you are a end user who wants just use a particular desktop environment then more focused spins is good. More importantly the tools are available in the repository which increasingly is making the process of creating a custom spin or derivative trivial. There is tremendous value in that.
Describing the spins are just a DE split is missing out the big picture. Folks are experimenting with a lot more than that. Look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LukeMacken/SecurityLiveCD.
Rahul
Describing the spins are just a DE split is missing out the big picture. Folks are experimenting with a lot more than that. Look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LukeMacken/SecurityLiveCD.
Yes, this is a very good spin of Fedora.
regards,
Florian La Roche
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 21:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 30 April 2007 07:54:16 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
And yet it is specifically KDE, while the Fedora Live CD is specifically.... Fedora.
And you don't consider KDE to be part of Fedora? KDE Live is mostly KDE programs and some GNOME, some GTK and other programs just like GNOME live cd. It has never been about purity of the desktop environment. Just different focus. Both of the desktop environments are part of Fedora. The GNOME live images are not anymore specifically about Fedora than the KDE live images.
The Desktop environment that Fedora wants to put forward as the
default, the best foot forward.
No. It's the desktop environment the GNOME team should be putting it's best foot forward. The KDE team should be putting it's best foot forward via the KDE live images (same for XFCE or fluxbox or whatever teams) and we in the Fedora project should be giving both these teams *neutral ground* to compete aggressively and fairly on winning over new users.
If that's the case, then we should *NEVER* provide defaults about anything. Doing so means that we're not giving a neutral ground. But that'll confuse our users? Oh well, they're not important. </sarcasm>
Please, this is ridiculous. We have to provide defaults and we have to do what we can *AS FEDORA* to have what we consider to be the best defaults and then guide users towards that. Alternatives exist and it's not like we're going out of our way to make things difficult for them[1]. But the simple fact of the matter is that they're _not_ the defaults of Fedora; the Fedora Live image is very very close to exactly what you get if you do an install and select the defaults[2]. _THAT_ is why it's called Fedora Live and why the KDE one is the Fedora KDE Live image. Not because one is GNOME and one is KDE. If we changed what was installed by default to be twm, then Fedora Live would follow that.
Jeremy
[1] In fact, I think that we're making things a lot easier for them with the tools, etc in F7. [2] The differences are a) no OOo purely due to space considerations b) all locales c) a few other packages that are large-ish don't get installed again for space considerations
Jeremy Katz wrote:
If that's the case, then we should *NEVER* provide defaults about anything. Doing so means that we're not giving a neutral ground. But that'll confuse our users? Oh well, they're not important. </sarcasm>
Each of the spins have different defaults. In enabling different spins that's we took away the idea of defaults for Fedora as such. Is Abiword or Openoffice.org the default word processor now? Is GNOME or KDE the default environment? It depends on which spin you download and use.
Please, this is ridiculous. We have to provide defaults and we have to do what we can *AS FEDORA* to have what we consider to be the best defaults and then guide users towards that.
Yes but this is dependent on the spins now. This isn't purely on defaults though. This is about how position and message things.
Rahul
On Monday 30 April 2007 09:15:41 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Each of the spins have different defaults. In enabling different spins that's we took away the idea of defaults for Fedora as such. Is Abiword or Openoffice.org the default word processor now? Is GNOME or KDE the default environment? It depends on which spin you download and use.
Please, this is ridiculous. We have to provide defaults and we have to do what we can *AS FEDORA* to have what we consider to be the best defaults and then guide users towards that.
Yes but this is dependent on the spins now. This isn't purely on defaults though. This is about how position and message things.
That's why we have a Default spin, IE Fedora. That is the one spin that we put above the rest. It is the one we would hand out at shows. It is the one we would send to reviewers to review. It is the one we base the Default Live image from which would would do all the above as well.
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote: . The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase
KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
Huh? Have you actually even tried the KDE live image? Default browser is konqueror, default mail client is kmail, ... evolution and firefox aren't even included.
Jeremy
On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 11:55:51AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote:
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote: . The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase
KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
Huh? Have you actually even tried the KDE live image? Default browser is konqueror, default mail client is kmail, ... evolution and firefox aren't even included.
I think many people will miss firefox. I know there might be space constraints, but moving then to bigger images will be the only item we could do to generate more generic images that a broader set of people can use. Just look at the size of a default install, it has really grown pretty huge over the years.
regards,
Florian La Roche
Jeremy Katz wrote:
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote: . The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase
KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
Huh? Have you actually even tried the KDE live image? Default browser is konqueror, default mail client is kmail, ... evolution and firefox aren't even included.
I believe one of the KDE live releases did include Firefox. I haven't tried the latest test release yet. I didn't claim that is has Evolution now. Just that it is a possibility from the discussions that happened. Gparted is going to be included in the final release. Fundamentally there is no goal of purity of desktop environment which was my main point.
Rahul
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 21:38 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jeremy Katz wrote:
On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 20:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote: . The Fedora KDE Live CD is specifically crafted to showcase
KDE, whilst the Fedora Live CD is specifically crafted to put Fedora's best foot forward in a reasonable usable desktop that will fit on a CD. Again, it is not a "GNOME" LiveCD by any means. Many parts of it are not gnome, especially areas like the browser. A Fedora GNOME LiveCD could be crafted that showcases a pure GNOME desktop, like the KDE LiveCD.
I already told you. This reasoning is flawed. The KDE live cd is not one to showcase a "pure KDE desktop" just the GNOME live cd. It has Firefox as the default browser just like GNOME. It has dozens of GNOME components. It might even have Evolution.
Huh? Have you actually even tried the KDE live image? Default browser is konqueror, default mail client is kmail, ... evolution and firefox aren't even included.
I believe one of the KDE live releases did include Firefox. I haven't tried the latest test release yet. I didn't claim that is has Evolution now. Just that it is a possibility from the discussions that happened. Gparted is going to be included in the final release. Fundamentally there is no goal of purity of desktop environment which was my main point.
Your point, while it may be valid, is irrelevant. The Board already agreed on these names. If you would like to have them changed, ask for it to be discussed (again) at a Board meeting. Or have it added to the FESCo meeting if you would like to see their opinion on the matter and have them go back to the Board if the decision differs from the current state.
josh
Josh Boyer wrote:
Your point, while it may be valid, is irrelevant. The Board already agreed on these names. If you would like to have them changed, ask for it to be discussed (again) at a Board meeting. Or have it added to the FESCo meeting if you would like to see their opinion on the matter and have them go back to the Board if the decision differs from the current state.
I would prefer to get some consensus without going to groups but sure, add it to the FESCo agenda for the next meeting. Last time I brought this up the board on the whole didn't care about naming.
Rahul
On Monday 30 April 2007 12:47:21 pm Rahul Sundaram wrote:
... Loads of discussion -
what follows contains no petroleum products as far as we know ...
As a lowly user - only 1.47 things are clear to me - I and many I know, will primarily need the 'everything install' -
Is this a DVD or a series of CD ISO's?
By the way - perhaps you could use Gnome-based KDE-based or perhaps Gnome-Centric to convey better the meaning of those installs.
Or perhaps (tongue in cheek) the KDE one could simply be the Linus-Preferred install ;-) Not that Linus is always right ... or is he ;-)
Thanks very much and I'm really looking forward to the All-Install now doesn't that sound nicer than everything-install???? Doesn't it?
Thanks all for loads of hard work and for willingness to debate and make (positive) changes.
g/
bug 234684 is still not fixed, which was a test4 blocker (no boot!) bug....