9:30 a.m.
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the discussion.
But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
-- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
justify that pace?
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Thanks again for letting me be a party to the discussion.
D_bot
9:40 a.m.
wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
discussion.
But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
-- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
justify that pace?
Gaining ground by what measure?
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome
could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Thanks again for letting me be a party to the discussion.
D_bot
Fedora, from my understanding, is trying to be a leading-edge
general-purpose distro. Recent versions of all types of software for
any purpose. If you want long-term stability, use RHEL(or CentOS, et.
al.) If you want to see where things are headed, try new things, and
maybe help get there, use Fedora, and enjoy the ride. :)
Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
-J
--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
9:45 a.m.
On 30.07.2009 16:30 wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly
release to
justify that pace?
Why does a fast development pace need to be justified. That's just so
paradoxical...
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome
could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Are you serious?
Fedora is a community driven project. The community decides the
direction it wants the distribution to go. And it is also true that
Fedora is upstream to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. However even RHEL is not
server-only. RHEL also makes a great desktop client in an environment
where long term support is needed.
Also: I _want_ to use Fedora as a desktop. And I also _want_ to use it
as a server. At the Moment I see no problem in that. Why can't there be
both in your opinion?
Letting Ubuntu "grind out" the desktop stuff doesn't make sense. Do you
want to kick out all the guys doing great work on desktop stuff and send
them to Ubuntu?
And to answer your last question. Solaris releases their "desktop
distro" every six months, just like Fedora. They then call it
"OpenSolaris", also a community-driven project.
Greetings,
Felix
6:52 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 19:27 -0400, Doug Epling wrote:
Well, excuse me for my old fashioned notion that a server must run
for
days, weeks, months without incident. More and more I see a system
loaded down with GUI apps that are crashing. I said crashing.
If you're running GUI apps on your server, you're probably doing it
wrong. It's perfectly possible to do a completely non-X install of
Fedora, and that's how I'd recommend doing things for a server system.
This never used to be a word associated with Linux, but it is now.
And what is the deal with needing to reboot after updates? That
sounds like something needs to be properly entered into the registry
-- oh wait, that is Windows.
You have to reboot on kernel updates (...duh) and udev updates. Possibly
a couple of other things, but those are the big ones. I believe it would
have been very difficult to architect things such that udev could be
restarted without needing a reboot to ensure correct operation. Most
apps just aren't coded to deal with the entire device node tree suddenly
disappearing and re-appearing underneath them...
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net
8:20 p.m.
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Hash: SHA1
Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 19:27 -0400, Doug Epling wrote:
> Well, excuse me for my old fashioned notion that a server
must run for
> days, weeks, months without incident. More and more I see a
system
> loaded down with GUI apps that are crashing. I said
crashing.
If you're running GUI apps on your server, you're probably
doing it
wrong. It's perfectly possible to do a completely non-X
install of
Fedora, and that's how I'd recommend doing things for a
server
system.
This is what I use for my server. Fedora 10 and uptime of 50
days.
> This never used to be a word associated with Linux, but it is
now.
> And what is the deal with needing to reboot after updates?
That
> sounds like something needs to be properly entered into the
registry
> -- oh wait, that is Windows.
You have to reboot on kernel updates (...duh) and udev
updates. Possibly
a couple of other things, but those are the big ones. I
believe it would
have been very difficult to architect things such that udev
could be
restarted without needing a reboot to ensure correct
operation. Most
apps just aren't coded to deal with the entire device node
tree suddenly
disappearing and re-appearing underneath them...
I do think that bodhi should also have a flag for needs-session-
restart similar to the reboot flag. I have a ticket for it in
bodhi trac, though I haven't heard any noise from it since I
filed it.
- --Ben
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3:07 a.m.
Om 31.07.2009 01:27 Doug Epling wrote:
> Also: I _want_ to use Fedora as a desktop. And I also _want_ to
use it
> as a server. At the Moment I see no problem in that. Why can't there be
> both in your opinion?
>
Well, excuse me for my old fashioned notion that a server must run for
days, weeks, months without incident. More and more I see a system
loaded down with GUI apps that are crashing.
I run my server with Fedora and didn't have any incidents of crashing
yet. My installation is completely X and GUI free (I used the Kickstart
from the AOS spin to install). However it is true that more and more
packages have dependencies on X libs when this is not actually necessary.
You could join the Server SIG [1] and try to make it better :)
Felix
[1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Server
9:45 a.m.
2009/7/30 <wdepli(a)mikrotec.com>
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly
release to
justify that pace?
Regular release are pretty much a requirement for providing large
numbers or large scale updates. Providing some of these large scale
updates just arent practical without breaking an existing release and
waiting a year or two to launch major updates kind of goes against the
spirit of "leading edge" that Fedora is well known for.
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right?
Fedora is not Red Hat. Red Hat releases are based heavily on Fedora
and a lot of Fedoras infrastructure resources come from Red Hat. tThat
is where the link ends.
And Chrome could kill current races to find a desktop to compete with
Windows.
That just aint gonna happen.
So why not concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best?
But regular leading edge releases of open source Linux _is_ what
Fedora does best.
Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome and KDE enhancements.
Open Source is about choice. Sure Ubuntu can grind those things out. I
on the other hand think Fedora does it better.
How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Solaris has very different aims.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary
and those who don't...
9:48 a.m.
On 07/30/2009 05:30 PM, wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
discussion.
But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
-- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
justify that pace?
Please go to http://fedoraproject.org and read the first phrase on that
page: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the
latest in free and open source software"
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome
could
Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora are two different distros, each with
its own goals and audiences.
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why
not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
I think the general consensus about what Fedora is doing best is
advancing technology.
Do you think Ubuntu has enough power to produce the much needed
advancements?
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/
10:01 a.m.
2009/7/30 <wdepli(a)mikrotec.com>:
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
discussion.
But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
-- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
justify that pace?
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
That post is just intended to start a flamewar. It didn't work on the
forum, so you try it here.
*If* it's seriously what you think. You shouldn't waste the time of
our developers, but google and read up on all the topics you brought
up here. If you cant do at work, do it at home.
Sorry if it sounds too snarky.
--
LG Thomas
Dubium sapientiae initium
11:23 a.m.
Thomas Janssen wrote:
2009/7/30 <wdepli(a)mikrotec.com>:
> I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the discussion.
>
> But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
> http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
> like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
> -- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
>
> Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
> justify that pace?
>
> After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome could
> kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
> concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
> and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
That post is just intended to start a flamewar. It didn't work on the
forum, so you try it here.
*If* it's seriously what you think. You shouldn't waste the time of
our developers, but google and read up on all the topics you brought
up here. If you cant do at work, do it at home.
Sorry if it sounds too snarky.
I was thinking the same as you Thomas.
It appears that just about every week a new 'blog type' post like this
appears. And many, too many IMHO, respond. After the thread dies down
another, similar, post arrives and it happens all over again. <sigh>
I think it looks like a set pattern.
--
David
10:04 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:30 AM, <wdepli(a)mikrotec.com> wrote:
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
discussion.
But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
-- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
justify that pace?
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Thanks again for letting me be a party to the discussion.
D_bot
Welcome to the list.
So the question that jumps out of me, is what arena are you measure
the ground gained in?
There are clearly some things that Fedora cares about, but doesn't
necessarily prioritize, and in many of those areas, we probably gain
little ground, and perhaps even lose ground because of our priorities.
Fedora's priority is to be a place of innovation, to be the best of
openource right now, and those priorities require rapid releases. The
pace is gruelling, and how some of the members of the community keep
up remains a mystery to me. (I fully expect to discover that Jesse is
really a set of triplets committed to Fedora)
Also, please note, that Red Hat != Fedora - though Red Hat certainly
has an interest in Fedora and Fedora is the upstream for RHEL; much
like kernel.org is the upstream for Fedora's and Ubuntu's kernel.
I think you'll find that there is really far more innovation that
occurs here (yes desktop innovation too) than elsewhere, not to
diminish the work of others, but between the huge community and the
dedicated engineers from RH that are working with upstream projects
like Gnome, most features appear here first (because we closely track
upstream, and becase many of those features, like NetworkManager, are
largely written by people in Fedora)
Now - all of that said - what kind of work in Fedora can we get you involved in?
10:08 a.m.
David Nalley wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:30 AM, <wdepli(a)mikrotec.com> wrote:
> I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the discussion.
>
> But thanks to bob and others responding to my post on fedoraforum.org
> http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227101 , I think I would
> like to broach a subject. My apologies if this is already a burning issue
> -- I am at work, and should not spend time browsing the archives.
>
> Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly release to
> justify that pace?
>
> After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right? And Chrome could
> kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why not
> concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
> and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
>
> Thanks again for letting me be a party to the discussion.
>
> D_bot
>
Welcome to the list.
So the question that jumps out of me, is what arena are you measure
the ground gained in?
There are clearly some things that Fedora cares about, but doesn't
necessarily prioritize, and in many of those areas, we probably gain
little ground, and perhaps even lose ground because of our priorities.
Fedora's priority is to be a place of innovation, to be the best of
openource right now, and those priorities require rapid releases. The
pace is gruelling, and how some of the members of the community keep
up remains a mystery to me. (I fully expect to discover that Jesse is
really a set of triplets committed to Fedora)
Android triplets. From the future. Running Fedora 13, hence the irc
handle. You're just now figuring this out? :)
Also, please note, that Red Hat != Fedora - though Red Hat certainly
has an interest in Fedora and Fedora is the upstream for RHEL; much
like kernel.org is the upstream for Fedora's and Ubuntu's kernel.
I think you'll find that there is really far more innovation that
occurs here (yes desktop innovation too) than elsewhere, not to
diminish the work of others, but between the huge community and the
dedicated engineers from RH that are working with upstream projects
like Gnome, most features appear here first (because we closely track
upstream, and becase many of those features, like NetworkManager, are
largely written by people in Fedora)
Now - all of that said - what kind of work in Fedora can we get you involved in?
--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
11:42 a.m.
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 10:30 -0400, wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server, right?
Not entirely, no (it can perfectly well be used as a desktop, and is
used this way extensively internally at RH, for instance). There's even
a specific desktop version (Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop).
And besides, Fedora is not Red Hat. :)
And Chrome could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows.
That seems like a rather defeatist attitude! I for one don't intend to
roll over and let Google replace Microsoft as the tech world's incumbent
dully evil monopoly.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net
11:54 a.m.
On 30/07/09 15:30, wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
discussion.
--snip--
Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly
release to
justify that pace?
There is talk, just talk at the moment, for and ELC:
Wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Extended_Life_Cycle
Discussion:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-July/msg00253.html
After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server,
As stated, Fedora is not Red Hat.
right? And Chrome could
kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why
not
concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out Gnome
and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Fedora has it's followers, and this one is happy to stick with it.
6:43 p.m.
Frank Murphy wrote:
On 30/07/09 15:30, wdepli(a)mikrotec.com wrote:
> I am new to this list, and I am looking forward to hearing the
> discussion.
--snip--
> Is Fedora really gaining that much ground with every bi-yearly
> release to
> justify that pace?
There is talk, just talk at the moment, for and ELC:
Wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Extended_Life_Cycle
Discussion:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-July/msg00253.html
>
> After all Red Hat is not a desktop but a server,
As stated, Fedora is not Red Hat.
Thanks for the links.
It is apparent from reading all these great howdy-dos to my post, that
there is a great difference of opinion on exactly what Fedora is.
As I said, it will be interesting to see what goes on here. I got 86
emails today. What I am hearing is some serious dogmatism and a tone
that is angrily defensive over assumptions that simply are not true.
I think this list is very likely a zoo, but I will keep an open mind.
right? And Chrome could
> kill current races to find a desktop to compete with Windows. So why
> not
> concentrate on what Red Hat/Fedora does best? Let Ubuntu grind out
> Gnome
> and KDE enhancements. How often does Solaris release desktop distros?
Fedora has it's followers, and this one is happy to stick with it.
6:53 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 19:43 -0400, Doug Epling wrote:
I think this list is very likely a zoo, but I will keep an open mind.
You're not necessarily wrong, but it's generally not a bad idea to turn
up at a friend's party and start loudly and enthusiastically criticising
the food, the drinks, the music and the company (even if they are, in
fact, all crap). Especially if you want to stay friends.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net
7 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 16:53 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 19:43 -0400, Doug Epling wrote:
> I think this list is very likely a zoo, but I will keep an open mind.
You're not necessarily wrong, but it's generally not a bad idea to turn
Er, clearly I meant 'not a good idea' :)
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net
2:44 a.m.
On 31/07/09 00:43, Doug Epling wrote:
--snip--
It is apparent from reading all these great howdy-dos to my post, that
there is a great difference of opinion on exactly what Fedora is.
#1 That's it in a nutshell, Fedora is different things to different people.
As I said, it will be interesting to see what goes on here. I got 86
emails today. What I am hearing is some serious dogmatism and a tone
that is angrily defensive over assumptions that simply are not true.
#2 That's human nature, and is also covered by #1 above.
I think this list is very likely a zoo, but I will keep an open mind.
>
But that is why a visit to the zoo is so wondrous.
What if they only had Camels.
PS: No offence is implied or expressed to any camel that may be reading
this :D
5381
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21 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Adam Williamson -
Ben Boeckel -
David Boles -
David Nalley -
Doug Epling -
Felix Kaechele -
Frank Murphy -
John5342 -
Jon Ciesla -
Nicu Buculei -
Thomas Janssen