Re: comments on 'directory structure'
by Dimitrios Typaldos
Aaahh, now I understand the point. Thanks.
Dt
o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o
pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16
Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C
uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted)
sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16
----- Original Message ----
From: Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com>
To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2006 8:27:03 AM
Subject: Re: comments on 'directory structure'
On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 20:23 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 16:21 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote:
> > I would like to include some ideas/proposals that maybe could improve
> > the Directory Structure:
> [...snip...]
> > Any comments positive or negative are welcome.
>
> Unfortunately, this is probably the wrong forum for such a discussion.
> You could try fedora-devel-list instead, but be prepared for a strenuous
> argument. Best of luck!
Woah, there, partner! Dimitrios is asking about the section of the
Fedora Administration Guide that discusses the directory structure:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide/DirectorySt...
Confusing around here sometimes, isn't it? :D
- Karsten
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17 years, 4 months
Dir structure rough text version call for feedback.
by Draciron Smith
I know I'm supposed to submit to the wiki but I am having a great deal of
trouble with it not recognizing my key. Still not sure why. I've exported
it. Then created a new one. Anyway I've had this sitting around for a couple
weeks now ready and would like to get feedback on it and hopefully get it
submitted to the Wiki by somebody with edit writes while I work on getting
my account straitened out. Once I get reamed on a couple of these for
mistakes in style I'll have a very good idea of what is and isn't wanted in
documentation and can hopefully just submit in a normal fashion by then.
Start rough draft
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Fedora dir structure.
This is meant as a practical guide for novice and mid level Fedora users.
The information is based on real life usage rather than what dirs are
theoretically supposed to be used for.
Linux uses the traditional Unix dir structure. It was designed for use on
multi-login servers and to facilitate organization as well as segregation of
applications and files by intended usage.Linux in general and Fedora in
specific has varied a little from the traditional usage of these file
structures. In this document is both traditional and actual Linux usage.
/bin
Used to hold commands used by both users and admins. In general not for
crucial commands. In single user mode /bin might not even be mounted if it
is on a seperate partition. Non-essential scripts and utilities are often
installed here as well.
/boot
This is where your kernel and related files are kept. It is also where the
boot loader, Grub and or Lilo can be found. The most common reasons to
access /boot is to make backup copies of your kernel before upgrading your
kernel. It is highly recommended that you do so. Rpm kernel upgrades do not
make a backup. If there is a problem and you do not have a copy of an older
working kernel you can find your machine is unbootable. See kernel copying
for how to make a backup copy of your kernel and what the various kernel
files do.
In /boot/grub or /boot/lilo you'll also find the grub menu. This will allow
you to modify your boot menu.
Only kernels and bootloader files should go in this dir.
/dev
This is a dir with virtual links to devices or device files. [Need examples
of why anybody would go to /dev]
/etc
This is configuration central for Linux systems. It is here where passwords
are kept, network configurations, job schedules, configurations for many
applications and a host of other information is stored. The majority of the
files in /etc are files you will never edit by hand. They are there for
specific applications and you make changes through those applications. To
modify some of these files by hand is to risk breaking your system if you do
not know what you are doing.
Hosts, hosts.allow, hosts.deny are kept here. If you have a network and do
not have a DNS server you will likely want to edit these files.
issue.net in Red Hat based systems such as Fedora this will provide the
exact version of the Distro you are running.
Resolv.conf will list the dns information you are using.
fstab lists your mounts. Unfortunately it uses labels by default so df is a
better way to see what is mounted where if you want to see what device is
physically mapped to a given partition. To add a permanent mount point you
add it to the fstab file.
Here are some of the dirs you are more likely to encounter.
/etc/X11
This is a dir you hope you never have to enter. X11 configuration files are
not for the feint of heart. This is where you go to configure dual head,
change monitor refresh rates if you change your monitor and to troubleshoot
if X starts acting up. If you do not have a reason to edit these files then
don't.
/etc/cron.d
/cron.hourly
/cron.daily
/cron.weekly
/cron.monthly
This is where your cron jobs are stored and run from. Usefull in debugging a
cron script that is not running as desired or at all. It is also one of the
first places to look if you feel you have been hacked. The .timeframe is how
often the script in that dir will be run. Hourly for example will be run
every hour.
/etc/samba
Most Samba configuration edits can be handled in the GUI today. Many people
still hand edit the Samba configuration files.
/etc/logrotate.d
Where to add and change what logs are rotated and how often.
/etc/yum
It is often easier to edit these files using GUI apps such as gnome-yum.
This is where information about your yum default behavior is contained.
/etc/yum.repos.d
Location of your yum repository information.
Repositories may be listed in the yum.conf file or as a seperate file ending
with the .repo extension.
/etc/sysconfig
This is the heart and soul of your system configuration files. Most of these
files you will never edit by hand.
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts
Networking central.
/etc/xinetd.d
This is where you enable, disable, add and remove services from the
xinet.dservice. The format is a start up script with the name you wish
to appear in
the xinet.d service. Most scripts will contain a disable line that you
change from yes to no if you have to hand edit them.
/etc/xen
Xen virtual machine configurations.
/etc/httpd
In rpm installs this is the nerve center of Apache. This is where you will
go to create virtual servers, change the document root, create listeners,
trouble shoot and other Apache admin functions. Many of these functions are
not supported well or at all by GUIs. httpd.conf is the file you are most
often going to edit.
If you install Apache from a tarball rename this dir to something which
clearly shows it is no longer the active Apache configuration file. Apache
will put it's configuration files in a different place is you install from a
tarball and the frustration of editing files here and confusion generated
from having multiple Apache configuration files is just not worth it. You do
want to potentially save the information if you were actively using the
Apache server before installing the tarball version of it. There are also
examples of things done by the rpm version you may want to incorporate into
the tarball version even if you never ran Apache up to that point. So it is
best to save this dir until you have Apache configured they way you wish.
/etc/rc.d
This dir contains what files are to be run automatically or as services in a
given run level. Init.d being on boot up. Most workstations use runlevel 5
(/rc.d/rc5.d/), so that is where you will be looking most likely if you ever
need to delve into this. Utilities such as chkconfig [link to chkconfig doc
page] from the command line or the services utility [link to X run level
editors] available to root in X are wrappers around these files. They are
also far easier to use than hand editing these files.
/etc/amanda
Amanda is the most commonly used Unix back up client. Here is where you can
modify what is backed up by Amanda and how often.
/etc/snort
Here you'll find the snort configuration options. Snort is primarily used as
an IDS and it is highly recommended that you run Snort.
/etc/cups
It's tempting but just don't do it. Cups is a very tempermental application.
Make modifications from the cups GUI not here.
/etc/apt
If you use the apt utilities rather than yum this is where you'll want to
modify repositories to obtain apt-get packages.
/etc/logwatch
Logwatch is a utility for monitoring and analyzing log files. Here is where
you modify your logwatches and actions based on them.
/etc/ssh
SSH is a secure means to replace both telnet and ftp. Unless you have no
other choice, always use SSH/SCP. SSH is in general very secure. It is not
immune to attacks. If you have no need to ssh into your machine take the
service down. In the ssh dir you will find several configuration files. Here
are changes that should be made on almost all systems immediately after
install to the sshd_config file.
#Protocol 2,1
Protocol 2
Make sure that only protocol 2 is supported. Never use protocol 1. It is
insecure. You will get hacked if you leave the ssh daemon running and
exposed it to the net with protocol 1 enabled.
#PermitRootLogin yes
Change this to
PermitRootLogin no
The exception being that sometimes control panel applications and other
admin applications require root SSH logins to function. In all other cases
turn this off. Instead ssh in as a user and then su to use root privileges.
If you use an application which requires the ability to ssh in as root you
can limit the ability to log in as root by IP or use keys as authentication
to provide better security.
X11Forwarding yes
This is something you typically want to allow.
Using this file you can also set up authorized keys, use PAM, Kerbos or
other authentication methods, do port forwarding and a number of other
options.
If you use authorized keys you'll find your key files in this dir as well.
They will be necessary if you want other machines to be able to log in to
this machine using authorized keys.
/home
This is where user specific data except for the root account is stored. It
is also often used as a catchall dir for downloads, installs and shared
files. The structure will typically be /home/username the username being the
only default place a user can store files except for /tmp. The primary
purpose is to segregate user files from system files. This is done for
security reasons and organizational reasons. It is also done to make it easy
to set disk usage quotas on multiple user machines.
The home dir is designed to keep user specific data and meant to be a
private dir. Users should NEVER share files in their home dir or allow other
users access to files in their home dir. Instead a shared dir or partition
should be set up to facilitate sharing of files.
In a user's home dir you will find files such as .bashrc which allows you to
modify your Bash shell environment, .gnome and .kde where some gnome
applications store logs and configuration information. Applications like
instant messengers will store logs in a .appname dir such as .ymessenger
.gaim or in places like .kde/shared/ksirc. This is where you will find
conversation logs if you save such. These are the dirs to save if you want
to keep your customizations to desktop and shell environments in moving to
another machine or a new install that wipes out your home dir. This can
include files like gnucash documents, bookmarks which are found in
.mozilla/firefox/ and pretty much every other important user specific file.
Files and dirs which start with a dot in front of them are hidden files.
They are normally configuration files for various applications that you use
and will be invisible except using ls -al or enabling the viewing of hidden
files in GUI file managers. By default most compression utilities will not
include these files in archives they build. So for backups you want to be
sure to use switches that do include these files. The specific switches will
be listed in that compression programs man page.
/lib
This is the home of shared libs and some applications. Mozilla for example
in the past would install to /lib. Many of the entries in this dir are
symbolic links. So to determine exactly what version of a lib is being used
you often have to do an ls -al on the file to see where the link is
pointing.
/lost+found
Here is where Fedora puts what it can find of files which get damaged in
file system corruption. If your system reports an unclean file system and
makes repairs here is where you can potentially recover lost files or pieces
of them. There is a lost+found dir at the top dir of every partition.
/media
This is where Fedora by default mounts peripherals such as CDs, thumbdrives,
floppy drives and such. The first place to look when adding a USB drive or
mounting a CD is here unless you specified a different mount point. It is
inadvisable to put any other kind of dir here. By default Fedora will not
allow you to create dirs here.
/misc
Mostly unused dir today. Was in older distros heavily used for certain
system files which have since been moved to other dirs.
/mnt
Most Distros still use the /mnt dir for what Fedora uses /media for. Some
applications will still mount media here. It is also meant as a handy dir
for admins to mount temporary devices.
/net
This is the traditional place to mount networked file systems such as shares
from Windows machines and NFS mounts from other machines would be located.
In practice many will attach them to the / dir or in their home dir.
/opt
This used to be where many third party applications were installed. Some
applications still install here by default. Most have switched to using
/usr/share or /usr/local in recent years.
/proc
Kernel and process virtual file system. These are representations of what is
going on in the bowels of your system. A window into what is going on.
/root
This is the home dir of the root account. This is not located in /home so
that if /home which should be on a seperate partition fills up the root
account can still function. Other than that it is exactly like a user
account in /home.
/sbin
Here are where many of the most crucial binaries in a linux system. Files in
/sbin are normally files only used by the system or by for administration of
the machine. /sbin also contains the files needed for booting the machine
and utilities meant to be used only by in the administration of the machine.
/srv
Designed as a location for service specific data.
/selinux
This is dir for configurations and data related to selinux policies.
/tmp
Home for application specific data and lock files. If an application crashes
and will not let you restart it, a good place to start is deleting files
with that application name here.
/usr
The /usr structure is where user specific applications are installed. Many
server applications will install here as well.
/usr/bin
Home for most user related binaries and utilities.
/usr/include
System wide include dir for use by both user written programs and system
compiled applications.
/usr/lib
User based libs and shared objects. Not intended for executables but some
wind up here anyway.
/usr/share and /usr/local/share often but not always the same dir. In Fedora
the default is for these two to be seperate dirs. This is for shared files
system wide. For example /usr/share/wallpapers is meant to be a common place
for wallpapers for use by all users and all window managers on a system.
Most documentation and man pages can be found in the /usr/share or
/usr/local/share dirs. Many applications will install to these dirs as well.
If what you installed is not a server type app or a utility you will likely
find it installed here or in your home dir. Many utilities are also
installed here.
/usr/src
This is where source rpms live. The structure is devoted to storing and
building source rpms.
/usr/sbin
The purpose of this dir is for non-essential Admin utilities and
applications.
/usr/local
This is for applications specific to this machine. Which really has meaning
only if other machines share a common dir such as /usr/sbin. Something done
very rarely today. So the /usr/local/bin, sbin, lib and other dirs except
for shared are typically not used today.
/var
This is one of the default places for many applications to install into
which are not part of the distro. Databases, webservers, accounting packages
and such often wind up here.
/var/log
This is where most system logs wind up. If your / partition is suddenly out
of space and /home /var or /var/log are not on seperate partitions or if a
seperate /var partition is suddenly out of space check /var/log. All Linux
users should get comfortable with some of the files in /var/log. Some
important files located here.
dmesg is a crucial file in debugging boot problems.
/var/log/httpd is where you'll find your Apache logs in an rpm distribution
of Apache.
mailog can be an important file.
messages is where you find information from applications that don't have a
specific log file. It is the catch all log file for your system and one you
should check at least periodically to monitor system health and security.
nessus, snort, rootkithunter and other IDS and security software will keep
logs here.
/var/log/samba is where to look for samba related logs.
secure is if you have it enabled the place to look for attempts to hack into
your machine. This is a file you should review often.
/var/lock
Designed to hold lock files. So it is another place to look for lock files.
Some applications put them here instead of in /tmp.
/var/crash
If you have system dumps enabled you will generally find the results here.
/var/lib
Application specific location for libs. Most applications which install to
/var will install libs specific to them in /var/lib. The redundancy of
multiple lib dirs is a matter of segregation between the intended users of
an application and it's related lib files. Many applications are no longer
following this layout and putting lib files in /usr/lib or /lib instead.
/var/games
Rarely used dir specifically created for games. Most games install
to /usr/local or to /var instead.
/var/mail and /var/spool/mail
This is the default home for sendmail and system mail messages. The basic
structure is /var/mail/username the file will be the spool containing
messages for that user.
/var/spool/lpd
Temporary location for spooled print jobs spawned by lpd.
/var/tmp
Location for temp files preserved between reboots.
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE3
17 years, 4 months
Few questions about the Admin Gude
by Vladimir Kosovac
Hi people.
I am about to start writing draft for Users/Accounts module of the
guide. Can anybody confirm whether I'm on the right track if module is
structured as per below:
1] Intro
- A bit about the general stuff (multi-user system, root vs
unprivileged accounts, etc.)
- Explanation of relevant files in /etc
- What happens in the background when adding/modifying users/groups
2] Managing users/groups using system-config-users
3] " using command line utilities
4] Password policies
5] Additional documentation
Does anything else needs covering?
Thanks, V
17 years, 4 months
Re: comments on 'directory structure'
by Dimitrios Typaldos
It seems properly that I have misinterpreted some previous sayings. I had the idea that the pages under drafts are still under development and not in a rather final phase. Could someone clarify this for me , please just to get a solid idea of my tasks ?
Thanks
Dimitri
o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o
pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16
Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C
uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted)
sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul W. Frields <stickster(a)gmail.com>
To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2006 1:23:22 AM
Subject: Re: comments on 'directory structure'
On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 16:21 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote:
> I would like to include some ideas/proposals that maybe could improve
> the Directory Structure:
[...snip...]
> Any comments positive or negative are welcome.
Unfortunately, this is probably the wrong forum for such a discussion.
You could try fedora-devel-list instead, but be prepared for a strenuous
argument. Best of luck!
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
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17 years, 4 months
Re: Wiki editing
by Vladimir Kosovac
Karsten Wade wrote:
> Do you mind if I bounce this reply to the list, as written? I was going
> to just do it, but I thought better of it.
>
Not at all - I am posting this to the list.
> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 10:58 +1300, Vladimir Kosovac wrote:
>
>> Lots
>> of styling experiments mean that I update often, which further causes lots
>> of messages sent to subscribers.
>
> Try the Preview button. It creates a preview of the change below the
> edit area. More ideas below.
I do but somehow I always come up with a new, better idea, just after
saving :-)
>> * Is this generally annoying to subscribers?
>
> Depends. Lots of short messages can be OK if they are various targeted
> changes. That can be easier than slogging through a long, single edit
> of a large number of changes. If you use the preview button or the
> sandbox style (see below), you can make it so that only substantive
> changes are saved. Although we all make typos that have to be fixed,
> and there is the Trivial Change checkbox for that when submitting.
>
> These are the same methodologies
>
>> * Is there a better place for trying out various formatting options
>> (perhaps I should just make a new page for this purpose?)
>
> Use your NameSpace (e.g. VladimirKosovac/) as a sandbox. You can
> prototype entire trees of documents, then use ''More Actions: > Rename
> Page'' for each page to move it to Docs/Drafts/.
>
Yes, figured that earlier this morning and started already.
>> * Should I bother you with this stuff or post such questions to the list?
>
> Yes. :) I'm always happy to help directly, but there is an advantage to
> sending to the list.
OK then, I'll post to the list and CC quaid, so that both these are
accomplished.
.
.
Just kidding.
If anything, we all learn that there really aren't
> any bad questions, just unasked ones. So, here's a recursive example.
>
> - Karsten
Thanks,
Vladimir
17 years, 4 months
Re: Re: Administration Guide modules and getting started
by Dimitrios Typaldos
I might have mis-interpreted the last message. Is this meaning that a second editor is not necessary for this chapter ? Apologies if this happened.
Dimitri
o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o
pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16
Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C
uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted)
sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16
----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Smith <draciron(a)gmail.com>
To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 4:23:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Administration Guide modules and getting started
I've already done a rough on dir structure and partitioning so far. Just trying to figure the protocol about adding them in. Want to get some feedback primarily on the style I'm using for the documentation.
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17 years, 4 months
workflow
by Karsten Wade
Here is a gathering of all the good but disparate pages on the Wiki
under one workflow page.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow
If there is a page at any URL that is important to our workflow, it
should be linked from that page.
Whatever is missing, please add it; help make it more clear; add new
workflows to gather pages underneath. I tried to cover the Wiki basics,
since those are in demand. We also need a brushing of XML, and there
are a few stubs for Plone. Thanks. :)
cheers - Karsten
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17 years, 4 months
just Fedora [RFC]
by Karsten Wade
Based on conversations on fedora-advisory-board and the state of the
future, I propose we start using the word "Fedora" in all our
documentation to refer to:
* The distribution itself
* The set of packages
* The project
For the project case, I think a good style is this:
"For the first instance of referring to the formal project, use 'Fedora
Project' to set the context, then use 'Fedora' afterward to refer back
to the project. If writing about both the project and the distribution,
use 'Fedora Project' in all cases, referring to the distribution as
'Fedora'."
We definitely want to stop using 'Fedora Core' for documentation in the
future. Although we still need to identify the difference between
'Core' and 'Extras' in FC6 documentation, we can start to use 'Fedora'
in place of 'Fedora Core' now to save us the work of changing it later.
When things are settled around "The server version of Fedora is called
Fedora Foo, and the desktop live-CD is called Fedora Bar," then we'll
use those terms. However, since the different flavors do not exist yet,
we don't need to start worrying about them. :)
- Karsten, who hates search and replace in the Wiki
--
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Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
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////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
17 years, 4 months
irc log FDSCo/FDP meeting 05-Dec-2006
by Karsten Wade
Here is the entire meeting log.
17:06 < quaid> <meeting>
17:06 < quaid> and sometimes we start a few minutes lae :)
17:06 < quaid> s/lae/late/
17:06 * quaid pings some FDSCo folks
17:06 < quaid> stickster_afk, BobJensen
17:07 * EvilBob waves
17:07 < EvilBob> BobJensen
17:09 < quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSc
\hedule
17:09 < quaid> as something to work against
17:10 < quaid> ok, I can give the DUG status
17:10 < quaid> I'm holding it up as Publication Editor, not for any
particular re\ason other than ...
17:10 < quaid> i) how do we signify the real content v. Docs/Drafts/?
17:10 < quaid> ii) I want to do a final read through.
17:11 < quaid> we have a problem of content scattered in many locations
17:11 < quaid> and now we have the Docs/Drafts/ URL itself linked from
the splash\ page
17:11 < quaid> which in hindsight was a mistake
17:11 < quaid> we should have done a link to Docs/DesktopUserGuide and
done a red\irect to the draft until publish.
17:12 < quaid> but we need a way to signify a "version for the latest FC
version"\
and "this is for the next FC version"
17:12 < quaid> Docs/ is the former, Docs/Drafts/ is the latter
17:12 < quaid> so ...
17:12 < quaid> how does it sound to ...
17:12 < quaid> have a big link on Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide that
links to the \published version on Docs/
17:13 < quaid> then let the Drafts/ go back to being a draft for F*7
17:13 < EvilBob> +1
17:16 < quaid> yeah, hadn't articulated that before, but it makes sense
now that \I write it out :)
17:17 < vnk_fd> is DUG considered completed?
17:18 < quaid> well, except for my publication edit
17:18 < quaid> we can add to it with FC6 content once live, though
17:18 < quaid> publication edit is me reading every page one last time
to normali\ze markup, wordsmith, etc.
17:19 < quaid> I just set that for Thursday this week (07 Dec)
17:19 < quaid> if I don't have time before then, I have some time that
afternoon \to work on it.
17:19 < quaid> the meta problem here is that not enough people can fill
the "Publ\ication Editor" role
17:19 < quaid> partially because the knowledge to do that role is not
updated :7
17:19 < EvilBob> Don't forget we have to also work ont he r-n the end of
the week\ also but they should not take much time
17:20 < quaid> ok, I'm not primary on that but I'll back you all up
17:20 < quaid> also, some of you all out there might want to excercise
new XML sk\ills for that
17:20 < quaid> oh, I ran past the first agenda item
17:21 < quaid> any objections or discussion about folding f-dsco-l into
f-docs-l?
17:21 < vnk_fd> back to the original proposal for a sec?
17:21 < quaid> vnk_fd: go ahead
17:21 < vnk_fd> do we need perhaps two 'draft' areas, then
17:21 * quaid puts the 0 item on hold
17:21 < vnk_fd> one for FC7
17:21 < EvilBob> I would like us to wait 6 months before closing that
list, see i\f we can make the list useful, if we can't do that in 6
months fold it up
17:22 < vnk_fd> and the other for incomplete stuff *FC6)
17:23 < quaid> EvilBob: what do you see happening on that list in the
meantime?
17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: at least on thing I think is that I should send
all FDSCo\ agenda, meeting stuff, etc. to f-docs-l at least in parallel
17:24 < EvilBob> quaid: Goes along with what I mentioned earlier about
how we use\ our meetings and lists
17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: is the concern that we bore the regular folks
with boring\ business/
17:24 < quaid> ?
17:24 < quaid> vnk_fd: that is a good question
17:24 < EvilBob> yes
17:25 < quaid> vnk_fd: maybe when we publish, we should do two things:
17:25 < quaid> 1. Copy to Docs/FooGuide
17:25 < quaid> 2. Copy to Docs/Drafts/7/FooGuide
17:25 < quaid> s/7/6/ in this case
17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: so back to the question then, what constitutes
boring bus\iness?
17:26 < EvilBob> the list is open for those that are interested we don't
prevent \list membership on that list really
17:26 * quaid pays for his opening two agenda items at the same time by
handling\ two discussions at the same time.
17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: but what about the obscurity?
17:27 < quaid> that is, I think that most of what is sent to f-dsco-l is
of inter\est to f-docs-l
17:27 < EvilBob> quaid: IMO a lot of the tools and tool chain stuff may
be boring\ to some
17:27 * quaid is appreciating a chance to knock this idea about, since
this is t\he first he is really thinking about it
17:28 < EvilBob> I will let you go back to Item 0, I need to deal with
family stu\ff for a few
17:29 < quaid> ok
17:29 < quaid> I'm willing to not decide yet on that item anyway
17:29 < vnk_fd> ok, then quickly
17:29 < vnk_fd> 1. quaid publishes to Docs/FooGuide
17:30 < vnk_fd> 1. writers do Docs/Drafts/rel.ver./FooGuide
17:31 < vnk_fd> that one should have been 2.
17:33 < quaid> well, sure, anyone can do most of those parts
17:33 < quaid> iirc about the ACLs, that is
17:33 < quaid> vnk_fd: sounds fine
17:34 < quaid> so Docs/Drafts == rawhide
17:34 < quaid> Docs/Drafts/rel.ver. == release branch
17:34 < EvilBob> rawhide == development
17:34 < quaid> oh, foo
17:34 < quaid> :)
17:36 < quaid> are we comfie with rel.ver. == a prime number?
17:36 < quaid> rather than include "FC" "FF" "F*"
17:36 < quaid> in the same way we don't have to say
Docs/FedoraDesktopUserGuide
17:37 < quaid> because Fedora is in the name fedoraproject.org
17:37 < quaid> ?
17:37 < quaid> s/comfie/comfortable/
17:37 * quaid is comfie with that, fwiw
17:37 < vnk_fd> simpler, the better
17:37 < EvilBob> yes
17:37 < EvilBob> less redundancy
17:38 < vnk_fd> that's if you're comfie with 6 as prime number :-)
17:38 < EvilBob> releases will still be numbered once it is Fedora
Freebase
17:38 < quaid> um, I meant
17:39 < quaid> s/prime/whole/
17:39 < quaid> :)
17:39 * quaid is obviously an English Lit major and not a Math major
17:39 < quaid> ok, so be it
17:40 < vnk_fd> ok
17:43 < EvilBob> OK is item 0 covered?
17:43 < vnk_fd> yes
17:44 -!- mspevack_afk [n=mspevack@fedora/mspevack] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:44 < quaid> and item 1
17:44 < EvilBob> quaid: for the record i would like to paste some of my
ideas fro\m our earlier brainstorm
17:45 < quaid> go ahead
17:45 < quaid> what subject?
17:46 < EvilBob> if FDSCo could use it's mailing list more the
"business" meeting\ could be 15-30 minutes and then we shift gears to
work with everyone brainstormi\ng, one on one colab, groups working on
training or what ever is needed it would \make the FDSCo meeting less
important because we talk on list, it would also be m\ore inclusive for
the FDSCo members that are in other time zones would also make \docs in
general more inclusive because we can
17:46 < EvilBob> take what we work on in the "free time" of the
meetings to the \general docs list also
17:47 < EvilBob> Meeting format idea and how it relates to us having two
mailing \lists
17:47 < quaid> ok
17:48 < quaid> to do that people would actually have to respond and
solve busines\s on list
17:48 * quaid looks at the agenda
17:48 < quaid> I can see stuff that would be best to discuss on list
17:49 < quaid> but it seems like its worth keeping on f-docs-l
17:49 < quaid> EvilBob: what constitutes business then?
17:50 < EvilBob> I have not figured that out yet... LOL
17:50 < quaid> heh
17:50 < EvilBob> Tools and Tool chain, can be a bit geeky to
non-programmer types\ for one
17:50 < quaid> well, i do think more on-list discussion would save us on
some sub\jects
17:51 < quaid> hmm
17:51 < quaid> that would beg a separate tools list, not to push that
content to \fdsco list
17:51 < quaid> even then, hmmm
17:51 < EvilBob> I agree, I would think that we start by pushing to
fdsco-list an\d then if right we move out to docs-list
17:52 < quaid> but the toolchain is not a steering committee exclusive
subject
17:52 < EvilBob> some of the development stuff that we talkabout as
fdsco may not\ be of interest to our writers
17:52 < quaid> also, one of our goals is the production of a toolchain,
so we nee\d one location that everyone can get updates about it from.
17:52 < quaid> it is coincidental that most of the toolchain folks are
on FDSCo
17:53 < quaid> but not exclusive
17:53 < EvilBob> Yes I agree
17:53 < quaid> tsekine and glezos for example have contributed to the
discussion,\ on f-docs-l
17:53 < quaid> patches, etc.
17:53 < EvilBob> open the list up so those that are interested in teh
development\ of our tools and tool chain can join
17:53 < quaid> well, I think I'd first want to hear from the general
list that to\ols needs a separate discussion area
17:53 < EvilBob> +1
17:54 < EvilBob> would be a "refocusing" of the fdsco list IMO
17:54 < quaid> well, not really
17:54 < EvilBob> rather than kill that list and start another
17:55 < quaid> I don't agree with pushing tools to that list, personally
17:55 < quaid> it's more confusing
17:55 < quaid> my instinct is to fold into one list and handle it all
there
17:55 < quaid> that the more we spread, the more we lose
17:55 < EvilBob> as long as most of our contributors are OK with that I
will be a\lso
17:56 < quaid> can you ask the question on list? just the general "move
tools or\ leave here" question, not where.
17:56 * quaid doesn't want to overstay his posting for the week
17:56 < EvilBob> Sure i will ask tonight
17:57 < EvilBob> Item 1 closed IMO
17:57 < EvilBob> address again next week based on list input
17:58 < quaid> sure
17:59 < quaid> ok, we've got megacoder and eitch MIA with a couple of
important p\rojects on them
17:59 < quaid> so I'll send email directly to find out what their status
us
17:59 * quaid has been updating
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Steeri
\ngCommittee/TaskSchedule as we're going along
17:59 < quaid> next we can address from there with present company is
the relnote\s update
17:59 < quaid> EvilBob: anything we need to think about there?
18:00 < EvilBob> on the subject of open projects, we have a large number
of items\ on our taskSchedule that are quite old and should ether be
handed off or flat ou\
t killed
18:01 < EvilBob> in the stalled section
18:01 < quaid> stalled == bad press?
18:01 < EvilBob> Evaluate and integrate RPM Guide into Building Packages
Guide as\ an example
18:02 < quaid> well, we can work on that as part of the working meeting
18:02 < EvilBob> tht item was drafted by ignacio and he is completely
MIA, what d\o we do with that draft?
18:03 < EvilBob> he does not answer emails or phone calls, no response
by postal \mail either
18:04 < EvilBob> I was just wondering if we had a policy on orphaned
drafts/docs/\contributions
18:04 < quaid> we don't yet
18:04 < quaid> we could move them to an orphan section of some kind, but
we don't\ want them to disappear
18:06 < EvilBob> there is at least one item on there (stalled section)
that I kno\w I cold out the guys from the unity project to work on
18:06 * quaid finished his edits to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/St
\eeringCommittee/TaskSchedule
18:06 < EvilBob> s/cold/could
18:06 < quaid> that is, the updates for the day are done there
18:06 < quaid> one second, let me formally wrap up the business
18:06 < EvilBob> sure
18:07 < quaid> I want to move the FLOSS docs summit back to the list for
discussi\on, John and I have proposed two related directions, and that's
where it sits
18:07 < quaid> maybe this is all in his and my mind, I dunno :)
18:07 < EvilBob> are you editing that page?
18:08 < EvilBob> If so can you please fix my WikiName on the release
notes item
18:08 < EvilBob> BobJensen
18:09 < quaid> ok
18:10 < quaid> done
18:10 < EvilBob> thanks
18:12 < BobJensen> Where are we with the moin update and plone
testing/migration?
18:13 < quaid> ok, that was all the agenda items
18:13 < quaid> we can go back to discussing stale stuff
18:13 < quaid> oh, sorry
18:13 < quaid> you are right, there are those items
18:14 < BobJensen> who are the contacts for those items and how much do
we pick a\t the scabs?
18:14 < BobJensen> LOL
18:16 < quaid> ok, on Moin for the docbook and 1.6 stuff
18:16 < quaid> we need someone to help with the Python in Moin Moin and
most like\ly be the maintainer
18:16 < quaid> of that code
18:16 < quaid> for us and for Moin Moin
18:17 < quaid> hmm
18:17 < BobJensen> OK so we need a "help wanted" page on the wiki see if
we can't\ get a snake charmer
18:17 < quaid> I posted to f-infrastructure-;
18:17 < BobJensen> OK
18:17 < quaid> nneed to do the same to f-websites-l
18:17 < quaid> and maybe ask whoever packages it for Fedora
18:18 < quaid> ok, I split the tasks out on the task schedule
18:18 < quaid> the 1.5.6 upgrade is happening already, see the list for
testing r\equest
18:18 < BobJensen> I am going to put an open request out on the Fedora
Unity site\s for a python developer for some stuff we need done there,
maybe we can find som\e one to come over to docs to help also
18:19 < quaid> cool
18:19 < quaid> I posted to f-websites-l
18:20 < quaid> we'll see if that helps, and I'll try to find the
packager from FE
18:20 * quaid doesn't know how to do that
18:20 < BobJensen> I can track that down easy enough, should be on the
owners lis\t
18:21 < BobJensen> When I get the maintainers name I will pass the
contact info o\n to you if you don't find it first
18:23 < quaid> ok, thx
18:23 < BobJensen>
http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewcvs/owners/owners.list?root=e
\xtras&view=markup
18:24 < BobJensen> It is Thias from FreshRPMs matthias(a)rpmforge.net
18:26 < quaid> ah, ok
18:26 < quaid> he probably doesn't want to help with the Python, but
we'll ask :)
18:26 < quaid> hmmm
18:26 * quaid ponders filing all this as a bug request :)
18:27 < BobJensen> BZ is many time the best way to reach him I am told
18:28 < quaid> ok, I'll try that
18:29 < BobJensen> Jon "daMaestro" Steffan is the lead packager for Zope
and Plon\e now, He got a python work out over the last week on another
project with me
18:30 < BobJensen> s/packager/packager for Extras
18:31 < BobJensen> I had not looked at my Docs email I now see the email
from pau\lo about the test
18:34 < BobJensen> quaid: need to take a little break here and put the
kids to be\d, will see you in a few
18:34 < quaid> ok, bug filed
18:34 < quaid> ok
18:35 * quaid works on more stuff
18:42 < cdehaan> Meeting closed or still running?
18:43 -!- cdehaan [n=Cody(a)dynamic-addr-88-162.resnet.rochester.edu] has
quit []
18:44 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser(a)195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-docs
18:44 < jmbuser> Good morning!
18:44 < quaid> jmbuser: good morning
18:45 < quaid> see, one reason to hang out, jmbuser eventually wakes up
18:45 < jmbuser> Yawwwwn (tired, not bored)
18:47 < jmbuser> Did I miss anything? :-)
18:52 < quaid> well
18:52 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
18:52 < quaid> the business stuff was discussed :)
18:52 < quaid> cdehaan: we are done with the agenda and are just in
'working meet\ing' mode
18:52 < cdehaan> OK
18:54 < jmbuser> Very good
18:56 < jmbuser> mether: The customizing yum section is developing
nicely.
19:00 < quaid> aye
19:00 < quaid> mether is great for a well organized brain dump of good
stuff :)
19:03 < jmbuser> quaid: As is your Docs Projects Workflow - I see I
already have \violated the wiki editing process
19:04 < quaid> uh, oh
19:04 < quaid> jmbuser: what did you do ? :)
19:05 < quaid> jmbuser: we just made that up an hour or so ago, so it is
adaptive\ v. set in stone
19:05 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has quit [\Remote closed the connection]
19:06 < jmbuser> quaid:Is this a old process (in which I plead ignorance
of the l\aw - I want a lawyer) or a new one (better to seek forgiveness
than ask permissio\n)?
19:06 < jmbuser> quaid: Ok
19:06 * quaid thinks his previous line crossed jmbuser in the ether
19:06 < quaid> yeah :)
19:06 < quaid> jmbuser: tell me what you did differently? I forget ...
19:07 < jmbuser> quaid: No, it was too good to waste
19:08 < jmbuser> I took the Work Flow Ideas, copied it to my sandbox,
chopped it \up and moved it back to the docsproject area as "ready to
publish".
19:12 < quaid> oh, interesting
19:13 < quaid> I consider that to be different
19:13 < quaid> that is project documentation
19:13 < quaid> which is different from "Fedora documentation for
end-users"
19:13 < quaid> the latter goes in Docs/ and Docs/Drafts
19:13 < quaid> the former in DocsProject/
19:14 < quaid> and you are right, what you did is a 100% legit workflow
for i) ne\w ideas and ii) new project content
19:14 < jmbuser> quaid:That's good
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has left #\fedora-docs ["Ex-Chat"]
19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has joined\ #fedora-docs
19:20 * vnk_fd must go, battery dying
19:21 -!- vnk_fd [n=vnk(a)202-74-202-139.static.woosh.co.nz] has quit
["Leaving"]
19:26 -!- megacoder [n=MegaCode(a)c-71-231-222-164.hsd1.or.comcast.net]
has joined \#fedora-docs
19:29 < quaid> megacoder: howdy
19:29 < megacoder> who are you ;-?
19:29 < megacoder> hi; long time no C
19:30 < quaid> how are you?
19:31 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu]
has quit [\Remote closed the connection]
19:32 < megacoder> Well enough; I've been buried deep in the bowels of
Boeing fro\m can til can't.
19:32 < megacoder> That's OK, nobody calls a consultant when things are
rosy.
19:32 < quaid> ye ha!
19:34 < quaid> megacoder: I was actually going to summon you to find out
if you h\ave made or are going to be able to make progress on ...
19:34 < megacoder> no, and no. I'm just snowed and have very little
available ti\me.
19:35 < quaid> ok coolio
19:35 < megacoder> I've missed the goings on and am skipping supper to
drop by.
19:36 < megacoder> Of course, at 23 stone, that's not _that_ much of a
sacrifice.\..
19:37 < quaid> :D
19:37 < quaid> well, don't starve much for us
19:38 < quaid> I really should do minutes for these meetings, but I
often forget
19:38 < megacoder> np, I sometimes fast for hours
19:39 < megacoder> I was gonna try to sit in on stickster's XML tutorial
on Satur\day, for moral support
19:40 < jmbuser> quaid:Yes, please do minutes or post the irc - have you
ever use\d irc2html?
19:42 < quaid> nope
19:44 < quaid> jmbuser: i always post the IRC, but it is nice for others
to do a \summary or minutes, but I'm not always that nice
19:44 < jmbuser> quaid: It's a perl script that "pretty prints" chat
logs and con\verts it to html - as the name implies - and the license is
19:45 < jmbuser> quaid:copyrighted, but free use with attribution
19:48 * quaid just pastes the plain text, since he doesn't send HTML
email anywa\y
19:49 < jmbuser> quaid:I volunteer to do meeting minutes, but it's
better if I wa\s actually able to attend the meeting.
19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: :)
19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: we're still struggling with what is going to be
a good ti\me
19:50 < jmbuser> quaid: One of the challenges of a global community -
time zones \and sleep cycles
19:50 < quaid> I'm going to close now and send a final IRC log, since I
need to p\ut some moppets to bed
19:50 < quaid> jmbuser: word
19:51 < jmbuser> Signing off to go to work
19:51 < quaid> we will probably move to a rotating schedule of some
kind, so at\ least we are kind in revolution
19:51 < quaid> </meeting>
--
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project
Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
17 years, 4 months
