Admin guide skeleton structure discussion thread
by Draciron Smith
Ok folks this week it's the admin guide. I have fleshed out the
skeleton a bit from the existing admin guide. The purpose of this is
to formulate the sub topics, many of which will be easier to write
than trying to tackle the whole topic in one fell swoop. For example
instead of attempting to tackle the whole printing document many of us
in a half hour could do up the printing to PDFs sub topic. The concept
is to add and edit this rough overview of the topics/subtopics.
A good way to work this I suspect would be to use the >> diff
convention to denote suggested changes at the start of your
commments/addition. I'll try to put this in the WIKI if I EVER get my
account there straitened out. Will make it much easier to read. This
is no means exhaustive, except to read :) I've forgotten a ton of
stuff. This is just to get the ball rolling. Next week I'll do the
same for the User/Desktop guide.
Admin guide
Undestanding the dir structure
* The Filesystem Heirarchy
* Locations for Software (commonly asked question)
* Locations for Data
Working with user accounts
Understanding Logins and Sessions
Local user accounts
LDAP link to LDAP section
NIS
Link to SAMBA doc for interaction with windoze. "Windows account interaction"
Securing User Accounts
Good password pracitices and tools
No login accounts and SUDO accounts
Groups
Overview
Management
Link to VPN section, "VPN users"
How to reset the root password (link to Rescue ops resetting root pw)
>> * Managing User Accounts (creating, modifying and deleting)
This is specific to the tools. Local user accounts can be cover with
both GUI and CLI tools. For LDAP the process is very different than
for a local user. Best covered in the sub section in which the context
is relavent.
>> * Managing Groups
Feel that simply groups will be more intuitive than Managing groups
which implies technical expertise. Those who have no idea what a group
is will be less inclined to click on managing groups than just plain
groups. Those seeking management tips will not be deterred by the
simplified title. By simply titling it groups it implies and overview
while managing groups implies a lack of an overview.
Permissions and Access Control
Overview
What they are
Organization (ie why home dir should never be world read write)
Numeric and alphanumeric meanings
chmod usage
Using ACL
* Managing Permissions (on files and directories)
* Understanding Access Control Lists (they have to be
acknowledged, but not
all software actually supports them)
Managing storage and partitions
Quick what is a parition
Extended, logical, primary
Common partitioning schemes
Short description/common usage reasons and link to LVM doc
File system types and link to mounting usage and tips
Ext 2 & 3
FAT
NTFS
Other
Working with fstab
Link to sub section in Samba doc "Mounting Windows shares"
Link to Network explorer/Network manager services.
Backups
Overview
Amanda and GP back up software.
Using secondary drives as backups and links to SW used for that
Link to Rsynch doc
Using external media
Link to tape drives
CDRom/DVD backup software
Short tutorial on using DD
Short tutorial on using tar and gzip for copying/archiving large dir stuctures
Working with disks and removable storage
File system types (almost redundant with partitioning but more
detail on
Common uses and basic does and don'ts.)
Link to LVM guide
Link to mounting guide
/mnt and /net purpose and use. Link to dir overview covering these 2.
USB/flash drives
Short overview and common usage.
Troubleshooting FAQ
SCSI devices
Short overview and common usage.
Troubleshooting FAQ
Zip and Syquest drives
Short overview and common usage.
Troubleshooting FAQ
Hot swap SATA and SCSI
Short overview and common usage.
Troubleshooting FAQ
Floppies
Short overview and common usage.
MDOS tools
Troubleshooting FAQ
Link to Tape drives
Short overview and common usage.
Troubleshooting FAQ
Networked file systems (suggesting a change from using "the" Network file system
Overview that includes differences, advantages and short capability comparision
NFS4
Configuration
Exporting
Mounting
Trouble shooting
NFS through firewalls (NFS3)
Configuration
Exporting
Mounting
Trouble shooting
SMB Linux to Linux guide
Configuration
Exporting
Mounting
Trouble shooting
Working with Windows shares link to SMB guide
GFS
Configuration
Exporting
Mounting
Trouble shooting
Link to Rsynch doc
Managing Software
Overview
Yum
Yum GUIs
RPM
Overview
Checking for installed software and versions
Manual install options
Repair and troubleshooting
Tarballs/GZIP 2/Zip
Extracting the files
Type I (./configure then make)
Type II (Binary install packages)
Type III (other)
Binary installations
Apt-get
Managing Services
GUI
Command line
Primitives
>> * Managing Firewall Ports
Shouldn't this be under security? I did not cover it in my draft on
managing services because this seems to me to be a security not
services topic.
Modifying the Startup Process
* Understanding Boot Loaders
* Advanced Boot Options
* Managing Kernels
* Running Commands on Startup
Using the Common UNIX Printing System
CUPs
Overview
Adding a Printer
local
Network Linux
Network Windows
Link to printers supported by Fedora
Sharing a printer
Managing Print Jobs
Creating a print server
LPR and CLI tools
Print ques
Printing to PDFs
Modifying the X Window Graphics System
Understanding the X Window System
Overview of desktop managers
Overveiew of desktops
link to KDE doc
link to Gnome doc
link to XFCE doc
link to Beyrl doc
Window maker Sawfish and others
Switching between desktop managers and adding new ones.
Switchdesk
Remotely controlling a Linux machine
Link to SSH tunneling
Link to X11fowarding
Link to VNC
Tunneling VNC through SSH
Isn't there a new third way?
Remotely controlling a windows machine
Link to VNC
Rdesktop
Consoles overview and usage
Adding the X Window System (after installation)
Configuring Graphics Hardware (system-config-display)
Location of files and what they do
Common modifications
Resolution
Dual heads
Networking
Configuring your nic cards
DHCP
Static
Hosts
Configuring DNS/bind
Configuring in Linux to be Master browser in Windows network
* Selecting Graphical Desktops (switching between them, and adding new ones)
>> * Configuring Remote Desktop Access
You mean as in X11 forwarding, VNC, etc? To me sounds confusing. I
broke those out into separate sub topics.
>> * Attaching a Remote Desktop
Isn't that part of the specific method for connecting remotely? Since
all of the remote desktop methods are going to be referenced in other
sections I feel it'd be better to give them their own topic page.
These are also topics people will directly search for and it would be
helpful to have them up at a higher level.
Monitoring the System
Logs
/var/log
messages
dmesg
secure
others
Default locations for HTTPD, MySQL, Postgress and other log files.
Link to SELinux troubleshooter
RCP
Top, Htop, Ntop and related tools
Sysguard
ps
GUI log tools
Systat and related tools
Link to Tripwire, AIDE and other IDS systems
Using tail and related tools
Enabling E-mail Reports
Configuring Advanced Logging (setting up a log analyzer,
redirecting syslog
to a separate server)
Link to nmap guide
Network monitors
CLI tools
GUI tools like etherape
Network manager guide
SchedulingTasks
Understanding cron and anacron
GUI cron and anacron tools
Scheduling a Task
Using crontab Schedules
Note that /etc/cron.* directories are sufficient for most tasks, but
crontab ought to be mentioned for more precise control.
File sharing
Setting up shared dirs
Using groups for file sharing
Collaboration software
Security
Firewalls
Link to securing a Fedora system best practices
Patching your system
Ports
Link to common ports list
link to Nmap
Link to RCP
Permissions from a security context
SELinux
Understanding SELinux
Adjusting the SELinux Policy (using system-config-securitylevel)
Repairing File Contexts with fixfiles
Rootkits
Rootkit hunter
Shells from a security perspective
Link to jail shells
Link to no login shells
User accounts
Philosophy
Link to security subsection of user section.
Deny hosts and other log watchers
IDS systems
Vulnerability scanners
Password best practices guide
Links to Linux security resources
Why to not use RSH, Telnet and FTP
Link to external securing apache tips
VPNs Link to vpn section
>>To me it seems logical to move LVM out to it's own doc since it is
likely to be referenced from several documents.
LVM (Logical Volume Management) is the default for Fedora systems.
* Understanding LVM (overview, see Installation Guide)
* Adding a Drive (includes formatting partitions)
* Resizing LVM Partitions
* LVM Snapshotting
The LVM HOWTO provides detailed information:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
Managing Software
>> Understanding Software Packages (link to the separate yum tutorial)
Wouldn't under managing software be a good home for yum? Where else
would it be referenced or searched for?
> * Managing Scripts and Web Applications (same principles apply to both)
Confused by this title. Are you talking about installing Firefox
extensions and enabling Java script installation when you mean web
applications? When it comes to scripts those are fairly rare today.
How many packages do you install that are not either an RPM or a type
I tarball or a binary (which is sometimes a script but to the end user
looks like an executable) ?
> * Working with Source Code
But people know it as tarballs. The words source code will strike fear
into many. Probably best to call them tar balls as that is the common
usage and also a gentler term for the technophobic.
>> * Exporting a Directory (as an NFS share) * Mounting a Remote Directory
But is that NFS4 or NFS? Lots of people keep NFS 3 around because it's
there, it works and why change something that isn't broken? What are
the advantages/disadvantages of NFS4 vrs NFS3? They clearly work in
different ways. So I broke that up into NFS and NFS4 sections.
16 years, 7 months
Using Gmail
by Paul W. Frields
> Aye but Gmail and most web base email is HTML email period.
This is incorrect, at least for Gmail. Above the editing box, choose
"<< Plain text," and the formatting bar magically disappears and your
message is sent in ASCII as $DEITY intended. (The prompt changes to
"Rich formatting" so you can switch back and forth as desired.) Trust
Google to play nice with FOSS, they love us.
> With Gmail I can use pop3 but that means changing my password,
> actually it means unsubscribing since I use this email for important
> and work related\tasks and pop3 sends the password in the clear. So I
> have to unsubscribe with this email addy, resubscribe with a new gmail
> since it's the only free email that I know of which has pop3 access.
> Then I can send in plain text. I can view in plain text all day long
> LOL.
Also incorrect. I use Evolution with Gmail securely, by turning on the
option to use SSL encryption and password authentication. The password
travels over the SSL encrypted session once it is established, QED.
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
16 years, 7 months
FDSCo Meeting 2007-08-14 Summary
by Karsten Wade
Attendees:
-----------
John Babich (jmbuser)
Dimitris Glezos (glezos) <g>
Karsten Wade (quaid) <q>
Paul W. Frields (stickster) <s>
Ricky Zhou (ricky)
Robert 'Bob' Jensen (EvilBob)
Mike McGrath (mmcgrath) [dropper-in]
Jesse Keating (f13) [dropper-in]
Summary:
---------
Mainly we discussed participation and motivation in the project. Why we
don't have many active contributors, etc. Discussions and conclusions
include:
* Unrealistic expectations about what contributing means.
<s> "If we're going to raise a barn together, pretty much
everyone needs to commit to hammering, sawing, and hefting ...
People who only want to count timbers and fetch water, you only
need a couple of 'em ;-)"
<g> "... if we don't have the people, then we might need to
rethink if we want to raise a barn or just a plain-ol bench
under an oak tree. :)"
<s> "I can do that on my own. I'd rather raise a barn with a
dozen other people. ... With the wiki, anyone can "build a
bench." Done. ... If there's going to be a FDP, we need to
commit to barn-building."
<g> "... personally, I think our docs infrastructure is already
a shiny building I'm proud of. :)"
* Trying to make it "easy" means too many tools, too many processes
- Fragmenting the how-to aspect
- Making it hard to get one area of FDP complete
<q> "... we're actually quite good with that; a guide can be
worked entirely in the wiki and output at the end with just a
few hours of clean-up ..."
<q> "I don't think Docbook is the problem at all ... I also
don't think it is really the "red tape" ... I think it is that
we are asking people to be real contributors, not
toss-over-the-wallers."
<q> "... anyone ... (can) maintain a doc on the Wiki ... in
fact, that's what the Docs/ space is for ... (but) if you want
it translated ... do we want 2 more l10n systems (Wiki, Plone)"
<g> "... I'd prefer to first worry on how to have up2date
content and *then* for l10n"
<q> "... people don't apply any level of rigor to Wiki work like
they do to other work, IME"
<s> "We had an initial influx of work for wiki-based docs, but
other than the release notes, people have not really done a huge
amount of follow-through on drafts"
<r> "Isn't basic cleanup really easy for bystanders to do on the
wiki?"
<q> "presuming they know how to write and follow a style guide,
yes"
<s> "That's a HUGE presumption too"
<q> "HUGE"
- Plone could help -- easy editing, built in tools for publishing, hooks
for translation:
<g> "do you think plone will increase the number of contributors
to docs?"
<q> "yes, in a few ways ... number of people who can
edit/publish can increase easily ... if people can write with a
Web UI editor and have that go directly into l10n and publishing
without leaving the Web UI, I reckon that will help"
- It would be good to improve our processes, but how to know what and
where?
<g> "... trying to think if we are ... doing something that
could be improved by re-engineering some of our processes."
<s> "You're not offbase... it's just hard to see where the
improvement factors come in when there isn't a sufficient sample
of where our time is spent on current processes, because there
are so few people using them to start with"
16 years, 7 months
FDSCo Meeting 2007-08-14 IRC log
by Karsten Wade
HTML at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minu...
09:03 < quaid> <meeting>
09:03 < quaid> greetings all after a hiatus :)
09:04 < jmbuser> JohnBabich
09:04 < quaid> KarstenWade ?!?
09:05 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda
09:05 < quaid> hmm, well, that's somewhat relevant
09:07 < quaid> wow, i'm a bit stimied
09:08 < quaid> I'm literally sitting here trying to figure out what to type
09:09 < quaid> it's not that there isn't anything to discuss, it's that ... well I'm not sure these meetings have much relevancy anymore
09:10 < quaid> I'm having a massive circle of doubt around Fedora Docs
09:10 < quaid> ok, IMO we don't have anything to meet about;
09:11 < quaid> we don't have enough people for a discussion, nothing to decide, and a large apathy:resource ratio to deal with
09:11 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_work
09:11 < quaid> so I'm going to leave things open here for a few minutes to see if anything has the desire to discuss this right now
09:11 < jmbuser> quaid: We have a great deal to discuss - how to motivate people, for one
09:11 * stickster_work is taking lunch here at desk, back in 5 min. to discuss/bitch/whine/whatever
09:11 < quaid> otherwise, i think we need a serious on-list discussion
09:12 < quaid> jmbuser: I'm getting to be unusually pessimistic about that
09:12 < quaid> as in, how many times can we beat on that horse?
09:12 < jmbuser> quaid: I've been here for a year - a very good year and I'm still motivated - but currently distracted by chaos at work
09:13 < jmbuser> quaid: I see good things happening in the toolchain and in translation
09:13 < jmbuser> Fedora 7 threw us a curve ball with the open-endedness of the application list
09:14 < quaid> well, we are more ambitiuous than we have resources for
09:14 < glezos> quaid, I'm a bit worried about that as well
09:16 < quaid> I feel disapppointed, I gues
09:16 < quaid> we've done a great job of building a scalable project
09:16 < glezos> it's probably OK with Beats/relnotes before each release -- but do we have the resources to follow the wiki -> docbook -> CVS/etc -> publishing for every doc?
09:17 < quaid> but not enough have showed up, and it's all about "the barriers" and "red tape"
09:17 < quaid> glezos: the problem is, we get ~2 people _ever_ who wnt to work in XML
09:17 < glezos> quaid, exactly.
09:17 < quaid> we're adding Plone to that -- plone => docbook => CVS etc.
09:17 < stickster_work> The problem is not the tools, it's the dedication of people to actually get the job done.
09:18 < quaid> does Docs just attract the wrong kind of people?
09:18 < stickster_work> Although there's an argument to be made that the number of tools available makes for fragmenting the workload
09:18 < quaid> those looking for something easier than we present?
09:19 < stickster_work> I don't know how it gets easier when you have people willing to hold hands
09:19 < glezos> stickster_work, I think it's also the tools -- people might be more willing to "just" create a howto/doc in a wiki page
09:19 < stickster_work> glezos: We don't want people to do that, though.
09:19 < stickster_work> We want them to agree to *maintain* it.
09:19 < stickster_work> That's a different level of work commitment.
09:20 < glezos> stickster_work, why not? better nothing than something? We could eventually put a warning on top "this is deprecated" in the worst case
09:20 < ricky> By the way, have you guys started playing with Plone more yet?
09:20 < stickster_work> glezos: That's just multiplying the problem we have now by X number of quasi-contributors
09:20 < glezos> stickster_work, for example, the L10n project would like to update the TQSG with the new stuff, but nobody is doing it because it's too hard
09:20 < ricky> I'm not completely clear on you plan on using it for, I'm just a bit curious.
09:20 < stickster_work> glezos: Actually, noriko is working on that now
09:21 < stickster_work> I was helping her on Friday night
09:21 < stickster_work> ricky: By "you guys," do you mean the ~2.5 of us that are working actively in this project?
09:21 < ricky> Oh.. I guess?
09:22 < glezos> stickster_work, what I want to say is that there is a level of committment various people are willing to take, and docbook/cvs might be too high a step for most of them to take.
09:22 < quaid> ricky: two parts
09:23 < quaid> ricky: to serve fedoraproject.org itself, which is out of the Docs scope but since daMaestro is setting up one instance ...
09:23 < stickster_work> glezos: If we're going to raise a barn together, pretty much everyone needs to commit to hammering, sawing, and hefting.
09:23 < stickster_work> glezos: People who only want to count timbers and fetch water, you only need a couple of 'em ;-)
09:23 < quaid> ricky: for docs.fp.o, Jon is adding a custom workflow that includes outputting to XML into CVS for canonical source and translation.
09:23 < quaid> glezos: I think we have made the Wiki quite available for that level
09:24 < ricky> OK. I'm not sure about status of fp.o itself at the moment. Hopefully, there will be a bit more discussion before that happens.
09:24 < quaid> and people do that for other parts of the wiki, I presume; lightweight documentation
09:24 < stickster_work> Right
09:24 < ricky> Hmm.. sounds interesting. So the final docs would still be generated from DocBook?
09:24 < glezos> stickster_work, so if we don't have the people, then we might need to rethink if we want to raise a barn or just a plain-ol bench under an oak tree. :)
09:24 < quaid> ricky: yes
09:24 < quaid> glezos: that's true, yet ...
09:24 < stickster_work> I'm not interested in bench-building, personally.
09:25 < stickster_work> I can do that on my own. I'd rather raise a barn with a dozen other people.
09:25 < stickster_work> With the wiki, anyone can "build a bench." Done.
09:26 < stickster_work> If there's going to be a FDP, we need to commit to barn-building.
09:26 < quaid> +1
09:26 < quaid> that's the point
09:26 < ricky> So basically, people don't want to edit docbook sources directly/translate with po files?
09:26 < glezos> stickster_work, personally, I think our docs infrastructure is already a shiny building I'm proud of. :)
09:26 < quaid> of we are only going to get big enough to build benches, we should dissolve all the hard work and be a SIG
09:27 < stickster_work> ricky: Well, we have plenty of people translating, no problems there as far as I can tell
09:27 < glezos> ricky, translators want to work with PO files, yes. Not with Docbook.
09:27 < quaid> ricky: people want to translate PO files
09:27 < quaid> heh
09:27 < stickster_work> That's a great community, no doubt
09:27 < ricky> So the thing is that people don't like docbook?
09:27 < quaid> ricky: the idea for a while has been to enable multiple $editors with one powerful source in the middle (DocBook)
09:27 < stickster_work> And the community of writers != community of l10n'ers
09:28 < ricky> Aha.
09:28 < quaid> we're actually quite good with that; a guide can be worked entirely in the wiki and output at the end with just a few hours of clean-up
09:28 < ricky> Heh.
09:28 < quaid> now we're adding Plone + Kupu to that
09:28 < quaid> I don't think Docbook is the problem at all
09:28 < quaid> I also don't think it is really the "red tape"
09:29 < quaid> I think it is that we are asking people to be real contributors, not toss-over-the-wallers
09:29 < quaid> and we have the same problem all other tech projects have around docs; "we need that" and "someone else has to do it, i don't have time"
09:30 < glezos> quaid, if we enable people to write docs and maintain them *on the wiki*, do you think the problem won't be solved?
09:30 < quaid> that's right
09:31 < quaid> I don't see where we have told anyone they cannot maintain a doc on the Wiki
09:31 < quaid> in fact, that's what the Docs/ space is for
09:31 < stickster_work> The wiki can accumulate deprecated docs as fast as (or faster than) any other publishing platform
09:31 < glezos> quaid, I think that people won't have a problem maintaining something on the wiki. I'd maintain the TQSG if it was on the wiki to be honest.
09:31 < quaid> we just said, if you want it translated ...
09:31 < quaid> well, my thought is to turn the wiki into a 100% community docs place
09:32 < quaid> and the question then is ...
09:32 < ricky> ^Agreed.
09:32 < quaid> should Docs feel responsible for keeping it clean.
09:32 < quaid> ?
09:32 < quaid> glezos: but how would you get the TQSG translated?
09:32 < stickster_work> ^ +1
09:32 < quaid> do we want 2 more l10n systems (Wiki, Plone)
09:32 < stickster_work> :-P
09:33 < ricky> Not necessarily responsible/high-priority, but it'd be nice :)
09:33 < glezos> quaid, I'd prefer to first worry on how to have up2date content and *then* for l10n
09:33 < ricky> My impression was that l10n was handled after the conversion to docbook (following the normal translation team workflow).
09:33 < quaid> yes
09:34 < quaid> but if a doc is maintained on the wiki ...
09:34 < stickster_work> ricky: The point is that wiki changes happen all the time and every change to a converted doc has to be manually ported in
09:34 < quaid> even if it were automated, it's still hard to track
09:34 < quaid> people don't apply any level of rigor to Wiki work like they do to other work, IME
09:34 < stickster_work> +2
09:34 < quaid> we would have to layer a whole CMS-like system --
09:34 < ricky> Does having docs maintained on the wiki somehow increase contributor drive?
09:34 < glezos> My thinking was to have a wiki space where wiki pages are of high-quality in terms of Documentation. They have passed editorial control, they are maintained (names appearing) and if not, there is a warning about it. Lightweight docs as you said.
09:35 < quaid> Docs/
09:35 < quaid> been there for a long time :)
09:35 < ricky> From what I've seen, most projects just have docbook in an SCM, right?
09:35 < quaid> ricky: for example ...
09:35 < stickster_work> We had an initial influx of work for wiki-based docs, but other than the release notes, people have not really done a huge amount of follow-through on drafts
09:35 < quaid> ricky: take the Mozilla Developer site; they changed from XML in CVS to a Wiki
09:36 < quaid> ricky: this was a highly technical group, but they never did their XML work; but in the Wiki, they saw contributions from the community increase 10x
09:36 < ricky> Aha. So it does help a lot.
09:36 < quaid> so experience shows that people will edit a Wiki, but not maintain there as much
09:37 < quaid> there needs to be people who dedicate themselves to doing janitorial work.
09:37 < quaid> and while that could be this project, to be honest ...
09:37 < quaid> it's not the interest of the active participants
09:37 < quaid> for the most part.
09:37 < ricky> Isn't basic cleanup really easy for bystanders to do on the wiki?
09:37 < quaid> maybe we should advertise for Wiki editors?
09:37 < glezos> quaid, right. We could help people "helping themselves" in maintaining.. Deprecation warnings, categories for obsolete docs, etc.
09:37 < stickster_work> It will be once we get moin 1.6 and the click through CLA in place, right quaid ?
09:37 < quaid> ricky: presuming they know how to write and follow a style guide, yes
09:38 < quaid> stickster_work: well, easier to get people accounts, yes
09:38 < stickster_work> quaid: That's a HUGE presumption too
09:38 < quaid> HUGE
09:39 < quaid> I think after we have Plone up to be a real CMS
09:39 < quaid> we need to reinvent the Wiki
09:39 < quaid> and do some announcemenets around that
09:39 < ricky> I'm personally somewhat afraid of Plone.
09:39 < quaid> which part?
09:40 < quaid> ricky: the reason for Plone is pretty simple
09:40 < quaid> ricky: the process to go from DocBook XML to published pages, no matter how we do it, if it is manual, we'll have about 2.5 people who know how to publish
09:40 < ricky> Well, as a frontend to editing Docbook, I'm not too concerned.
09:40 < quaid> Plone let's us put that in the hands of content area owners, and to automate the XML build so normal folks can edit/publish
09:41 < stickster_work> Best features of both wiki + docbook
09:41 < stickster_work> Easy writing for people who just want to write
09:41 < stickster_work> Toolchain options for other publishing (PDF, RPM, etc.)
09:42 < ricky> For anything something more complex (like a full-blown CMS), it can have a steep learning curve.
09:42 < quaid> well, it's a new Web app to learn
09:42 < glezos> ricky, +1
09:42 < quaid> but you can create documents and edit them with a better WYSIWYG editor than a Wiki is
09:43 < ricky> The GNOME web team has actually been trying to move over to a Plone site.. and it's been painful so far (I saw participation/activity drop down *a lot*).
09:43 < ricky> But as I said, for an editing interface, it might work well :)
09:44 < quaid> well, in terms of just Docs ...
09:44 < quaid> that is, for the Websites side, you see the benefits, right?
09:44 < quaid> I guess for Docs, I can't see how participation can get much lower.
09:45 < ricky> What do you mean about the websites side?
09:46 < quaid> what I mean is, the serving of fedorproject.org front pages
09:46 < quaid> v. having the Wiki be the front page
09:46 < quaid> or having us manually create and maintain pages, or hack up SSIs or whatever
09:47 < ricky> Well, that's where I've seen a lot of pain in other projects. I'm currently researching any other possibilities.
09:47 < quaid> right now, if you want to delegate some set of pages to a new Websites person, they need a lot experience and access
09:47 < quaid> setup pain? or maintenance pain?
09:47 < ricky> If you want to maintain clean markup and use kupu, you must know HTML decently (from what I've seen).
09:47 < quaid> I guess the usage of Plone for the front-page was an older idea that is just included with our GSoC work; it can be decoupled, though.
09:48 < quaid> hmm, I haven't edited extensively in Kupu, it just looked like straight XHTML editing.
09:48 < ricky> I don't want to rant on against Plone, but templating for it and customizing page layouts hasn't been easy for me.
09:48 < jmbuser> IMHO, the wiki presentation quality is much improved...thanks to Plone
09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: sorry, where?
09:49 < jmbuser> That's part of the communications process
09:49 < jmbuser> quaid: the main page
09:49 < ricky> Well, maybe it can be modified to remove some of the presentational tags/attributes that it produces.
09:49 < quaid> ricky: well, beat on daMaestro, definitely don't let him get away with an unmaintainable hack for the front-page stuff
09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: main page isn't Plone
09:49 < jmbuser> educate me...
09:49 < EvilBob> HI ALL!
09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: it's just plain HTML + CSS
09:50 < quaid> EvilBob: howdy
09:50 < jmbuser> ahhhh
09:50 < EvilBob> ricky: templating plone is not that hard
09:50 * jmbuser was suffering under a delusion
09:50 < ricky> I don't want to start a war over this, honestly, but I'm hoping to open up the options a bit.
09:50 < quaid> ricky: oh, hardly a war
09:50 < glezos> quaid, do you think plone will increase the number of contributors to docs?
09:51 < ricky> EvilBob: Well, I'm admittedly somewhat pedantic about having "perfectly" clean markup, etc.
09:51 < quaid> ricky: a foregone decision doesn't mean it's locked in stone
09:51 < EvilBob> ricky: http://fedorasolved.org/
09:51 < quaid> glezos: yes, in a few ways
09:51 < quaid> glezos: number of people who can edit/publish can increase easily
09:52 < EvilBob> ricky: make it work first clean it up later
09:52 < quaid> glezos: if people can write with a Web UI editor and have that go directly into l10n and publishing without leaving the Web UI, I reckon that will help
09:53 < EvilBob> ricky: there are many sites out there running plone that most people can not tell are running plone from the outside
09:54 < ricky> EvilBob: Really? I'd be really interested to hear about some, actually.
09:54 * jmbuser has to cut and run
09:54 < EvilBob> ricky: sure we can hook up later
09:55 < ricky> EvilBob: OK, feel free to PM me if you ever want, or you know where to find me on IRC :)
09:55 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser(a)195.229.24.83] has quit ["Leaving"]
09:55 < quaid> glezos: esp. if Plone is additive rather than replacing
09:56 < glezos> quaid, agreed.
09:56 < glezos> quaid, if we do manage to have this infrastructure, then it would be great.
09:56 < kanarip> glezos, especially when it doesn't take a year or so to save my doc updates
09:56 < EvilBob> heh
09:56 < EvilBob> wiki pains
09:57 * stickster_work wonders if his planned vfudcon How to Make Docs in CVS is simply a waste of time
09:57 * ricky will probably listen to it :)
09:57 < EvilBob> stickster_work: no
09:57 < EvilBob> not a waste
09:57 < EvilBob> we still need the skills
09:57 < EvilBob> IMO anyhow
09:57 < glezos> Q: do we know of any project (other than wikipedia), that is maintaining high-quality docs on a wiki?
09:58 < ricky> I think he mentioned developer.mozilla.org
09:58 < EvilBob> glezos: a wiki != moinmoin
09:59 < quaid> yes, developer.mozilla.org is one
10:00 < ricky> Anyway, I'm off to lunch now- thanks for taking the time to explain everything to me.
10:00 < ricky> (I'll try to somewhat keep up with the discussion later, hopefully)
10:00 < quaid> we should wrap up
10:00 < quaid> anyone want to add anything more here?
10:01 < quaid> otherwise, we'll continue on-list :)
10:03 < glezos> I'm ok.. sorry if I sounded too negative -- m just trying to think if we are
10:04 < glezos> doing something that could be improved by re-engineering some of our processes.
10:04 < EvilBob> glezos: there has been talk that we are doing more than moinmoin was designed for
10:04 < stickster_work> glezos: You're not offbase... it's just hard to see where the improvement factors come in when there isn't a sufficient sample of where our time is spent on current processes, because there are so few people using them to start with
10:05 < EvilBob> glezos: if that is what you are talking about
10:06 < glezos> agreed :)
10:06 < quaid> ok then ...
10:06 < EvilBob> IMO having to wait for page saves in excess of a minute is ridiculous
10:07 < EvilBob> I don't know where the bottle neck is in that process
10:07 < quaid> it's a design thing, and there has been research into it
10:07 < quaid> Infra has one person who did some tests, etc.
10:08 < vpv> EvilBob: afaik moin goes through all the user accounts to find which ones to notify, rayvd has been working on it, but I haven't heard from him in a while
10:08 < EvilBob> Yeah I know others know about it and have looked at it
10:08 < mmcgrath> EvilBob: Every time you save, moin has to iterate over every user file and every regex in that file to see if that user should be notified about that page.
10:08 < EvilBob> mmcgrath: that is what I thought
10:09 < mmcgrath> we even deleted a bunch of users back in the day (we deleted about 7000 IIRC) and that helpped but it only masked the problem.
10:09 < stickster_work> design--
10:10 * mmcgrath bbiab
10:10 < ricky> Woah. 7000.
10:11 < quaid> yeah, imagine if all those people could edit, scary :)
10:11 < EvilBob> moinmoin was chosen because it met the software requirements IIRC, using python was one of them
10:11 < EvilBob> scalability was not high enough on the requirements list I guess
10:11 < quaid> well, no one knew back then
10:12 < EvilBob> right
10:12 < quaid> and we may be a rather big user of Moin compared to ohers
10:12 < f13> IIRC we're the biggest
10:13 < EvilBob> what works great for a dozen users may not work well for a dozen gross
10:13 < quaid> Fedora contributors -- more than a gross!
10:14 < EvilBob> Yeah
10:14 < ricky> Still >7000, it seems.
10:14 < ricky> Or maybe not.. hmm..
10:15 < EvilBob> I do hope that plone on zope will scale to meet the needs of our contributor and user bases
10:15 < EvilBob> we really don't know until we start throwing stuff at it I guess
10:16 < EvilBob> I have to get back to work
10:16 < EvilBob> BBL
10:16 < ricky> Well, for the docs team, step one would be to get some highly available Plone experts around.
10:21 < quaid> </meeting>
16 years, 7 months
Self-Introduction: Harjit Mavi (hmavi)
by prince mavi
Hi my full legal name is: Harjit Singh Mavi
I am from Melbourne, Australia
I work as a Sys Admin
I did my studies from India (Punjab University) as well as Australia (University of Ballarat)
My goals in Fedora Project are as follows
--------------
I want to contribute towards punjabi translation of Fedora project as it is my mother tongue.
and i am really really impressed with the concept of open source and the hard work of my peers who have contributed so far towards Fedora. hats off to the gentlemen who spend sleepless nights to keep the software free without the expectation of any reward.
Till now i have been at receiving end that is using Fedora. now i want to start as a contributor
i would like to translate everything into punjabi so that fedora can potentially penetrate the whole punjabi community.
historical qualifications
-------------
i have not contributed to any open source project before this
i work at the level of sys admin. so i'm pretty confident with my computing skills
i can program in a few languages, i can write tech stuff in layman's language
and i can explain involved topics in a simple language.
i think i am an excellent match for Fedora project as i can use both my computing as well as language (translation) skills in order to contribute to the project.
gpg key id and fingerprint
pub 1024D/BA292D9C 2007-08-06 [expires: 2008-08-05]
Key fingerprint = 8951 D3C5 98F3 D5A3 DF47 C242 A505 0CCC BA29 2D9C
uid Harjit Singh Mavi (Fedora Project) <princemavi(a)yahoo.com>
sub 2048g/339CFCE0 2007-08-06 [expires: 2008-08-05]
I look forward to hear from you peers and would love to contribute towards Fedora project.
thank you all
Harjit Mavi
___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
16 years, 7 months
Presentation (RESCHEDULE)
by Paul W. Frields
I took ill on Saturday night and was unable to make my presentation as
planned for Virtual FUDCon on Sunday. I've rescheduled it for Wednesday
at 2100-2200 UTC (5-6pm Eastern, 2-3pm Pacific). The talk will revolve
around creating new documentation in our CVS repository, and how the
various pieces of the toolchain (Makefile, rpm-info, etc.) work together
to produce shiny cool docs that can be immediately translated by the
L10N project, built into HTML or PHP pages for publishing, or made into
RPM packages.
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
16 years, 7 months
Rescheduling
by Paul W. Frields
Jef,
I'm really sorry about this, but I came back from an outing today with
my family with a fever. I'm piled under blankets and quite a sorry
sight right now. I put a note on the wiki that I would reschedule.
I'll be in touch as soon as I feel better.
I highly doubt it makes sense for another docs person to pick up my
presentation, but just in case, I'm cc'ing the list. My materials are
at http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ .
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
16 years, 7 months
Fedora 8 Test 1 release notes
by Rahul Sundaram
Hi
Can anyone do the release notes for the test releases this time?
Important changes to mention for test 1 are
Rsyslog replaces Sysklogd. See the spec
No more XFS (x font server). See the spec
GNOME 2.19. Figure out what has has merged that is important from
http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap or post a screenshot with the about box
KDE 3.5.7. Same as Fedora 7. KDE 4 isn't merged yet and we might not be
having this by default if KDE 4 schedule slips.
Anything else?
With the new feature process and the feature list at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/FeatureList, it should be
easier to keep track of the important changes this time.
Rahul
16 years, 7 months