5:41 a.m.
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts
again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please
review it if it's what you are expecting. especially please
pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif
Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection
when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo)
Dzongkha (dz)
Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
would supports that language isn't installed by default.
maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
--
Akira TAGOH
1:22 p.m.
On 03/06/2012 06:41 AM, Akira TAGOH wrote:
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts
again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please
review it if it's what you are expecting.
Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp
is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider
"WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY
Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional
and monospace faces in that package can also
be considered.
I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new
effort?
Qianqian
especially please
pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif
Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection
when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo)
Dzongkha (dz)
Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
would supports that language isn't installed by default.
maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
--
Akira TAGOH
_______________________________________________
fonts mailing list
fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
1:46 p.m.
Le Mar 6 mars 2012 20:22, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
65-nonlatin.
How is fontconfig supposed to arbiter between CJK users when you're not
telling it the locale you want? What you describe is not an issue, it's an
impossible wish. You need to fix the software used by Chinese writers so it
actually tells the font stack the user wants to render Chinese.
(IMHO anyway)
--
Nicolas Mailhot
2:30 p.m.
On 03/06/2012 02:46 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mar 6 mars 2012 20:22, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
> I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
> There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
> under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
> fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
> 65-nonlatin.
How is fontconfig supposed to arbiter between CJK users when you're not
telling it the locale you want? What you describe is not an issue, it's an
impossible wish. You need to fix the software used by Chinese writers so it
actually tells the font stack the user wants to render Chinese.
Oh that sweet topic again...
(IMHO anyway)
3:48 p.m.
On 03/06/2012 02:46 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mar 6 mars 2012 20:22, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
> I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
> There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
> under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
> fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
> 65-nonlatin.
How is fontconfig supposed to arbiter between CJK users when you're not
telling it the locale you want?
while this is true, the issue does exist, admit or not.
To be more explicit, I think there is a blind point in the
current fallback mechanism for handling "unspecified"
language font fallback. Ignoring it will continue impacting
users experience in a negative way, in my opinion.
What you describe is not an issue, it's an
impossible wish.
No matter you set the default font or not, there will
be one chosen for these locales (currently it is
Japanese). All I want to say is that, when there is no
specific preference, Chinese is a better choice as it
provides consistent glyphs over a larger unicode
coverage.
You need to fix the software used by Chinese writers so it
actually tells the font stack the user wants to render Chinese.
(IMHO anyway)
8:01 p.m.
>>>> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:22:55 -0500,
>>>> "QF" == Qianqian Fang <fangqq(a)gmail.com> wrote:
QF> Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp
QF> is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider
QF> "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY
QF> Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional
QF> and monospace faces in that package can also
QF> be considered.
Please file a bug against
wqy-zenhei-fonts. 65-0-wqy-zenhei-sharp.conf contains the
generic names rule for monospace.
QF> I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
QF> There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
QF> under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
QF> fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
QF> 65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new
QF> effort?
Well, basically that is hard to guess from the incomplete
information what a font is best for characters. I suppose
it's something what higher-layered apps/library should tries
to address.
Another option is to have own config to change the default
font because making it comfortable for everyone is
impossible. that's why we have fonts-tweak-tool in f17.
--
Akira TAGOH
3:19 a.m.
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-06二的 14:22 -0500，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/06/2012 06:41 AM, Akira TAGOH wrote:
> Hi,
>
> just ran the script to collect the information for fonts
> again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please
> review it if it's what you are expecting.
Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp
is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider
"WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY
Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional
and monospace faces in that package can also
be considered.
I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for
monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts
to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono" doesn't
contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback
about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
I did not follow the default font settings in F17.
There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese
under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese
fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig
65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new
effort?
To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are
using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to
explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and
English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese
users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this
customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
Thanks,
Peng Wu
Qianqian
> especially please
> pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
> decorated with bold:
>
> Arabic - serif
> Urdu - serif
>
> that would means it may breaks the default font selection
> when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
> pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
> should be limited for the certain languages then.
>
> Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
>
> Tibetan (bo)
> Dzongkha (dz)
> Thai (th)
>
> On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
> would supports that language isn't installed by default.
> maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
>
> http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Akira TAGOH
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fonts mailing list
> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
_______________________________________________
fonts mailing list
fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
8:51 a.m.
On 03/09/2012 04:19 AM, Peng Wu wrote:
I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei
Mono" for
monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts
to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono" doesn't
contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback
about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
replacing a mono font by proportional ones will cause
layout issues, which I think is more severe than the
mere aesthetic difference.
To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are
using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to
explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and
English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese
users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this
customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
yes, I understand this solution perfectly, as this was not
the first time discussed. But it does not solve the issue.
Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English
system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so
felt by many other Chinese users who had complained
before. The solution is there, but has never been
considered.
Qianqian
Thanks,
Peng Wu
> Qianqian
>
>> especially please
>> pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
>> decorated with bold:
>>
>> Arabic - serif
>> Urdu - serif
>>
>> that would means it may breaks the default font selection
>> when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
>> pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
>> should be limited for the certain languages then.
>>
>> Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
>>
>> Tibetan (bo)
>> Dzongkha (dz)
>> Thai (th)
>>
>> On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
>> would supports that language isn't installed by default.
>> maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
>>
>> http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>> --
>> Akira TAGOH
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> fonts mailing list
>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
> _______________________________________________
> fonts mailing list
> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
11:07 a.m.
Le Ven 9 mars 2012 15:51, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English
system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so
felt by many other Chinese users who had complained
before.
Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese, so the
tools don't have to guess the language.
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377
If they don't it's a website bug.
And if a browser does not call the shaper with the right parameters when
encountering such a page, it's a browser bug and needs to be reported to the
browser team.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
11:30 a.m.
On 03/09/2012 12:07 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese,
so
the tools don't have to guess the language.
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377 If they
don't it's a website bug.
that's incorrect, because fontconfig does produce
a "guessed" value, which is Japanese, after all,
and that is the exact problem I was talking about.
the issue is not in pango, but in fontconfig.
And if a browser does not call the shaper with the right parameters
when encountering such a page, it's a browser bug and needs to be
reported to the browser team.
1:04 p.m.
Le Ven 9 mars 2012 18:30, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
On 03/09/2012 12:07 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese, so
> the tools don't have to guess the language.
> http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377 If they
> don't it's a website bug.
that's incorrect, because fontconfig does produce
a "guessed" value, which is Japanese, after all,
and that is the exact problem I was talking about.
the issue is not in pango, but in fontconfig.
No the issue is that you're putting the font stack in a situation where it's
guessing and can't produce reliable results.
Have your Chinese pages properly declare they are in Chinese as the w3c
recommends for i18n sites and you won't have any problems.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
2:59 p.m.
On 03/09/2012 02:04 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
No the issue is that you're putting the font stack in a situation
where it's guessing and can't produce reliable results.
There is nothing wrong with guessing. In fact, for a mature
OS designed for the mass, fault-tolerance and legitimate
guess/default values are almost required. A robust system
should also function reasonably even under unexpected
situations (and I believe it is fair to inspect the font
rendering pipelines under these more stringent requirements
given the profound impact).
All I was trying to say was that the current guess is a bad one.
If it can be improved, it can save many people's time and
frustration. Tell what's the downside for correcting this?
Have your Chinese pages properly declare they are in Chinese as the
w3c recommends for i18n sites and you won't have any problems.
There is going to be no criminals if we are all law-abiding
citizens, but unfortunately, that's not our world.
9:40 p.m.
>>>> On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:59:29 -0500,
>>>> "QF" == Qianqian Fang <fangqq(a)gmail.com> wrote:
QF> All I was trying to say was that the current guess is a bad
QF> one.
QF> If it can be improved, it can save many people's time and
QF> frustration. Tell what's the downside for correcting this?
The guess isn't perfect. this is why providing the certain
information in the content are recommended. thinking of the
similar situation, who can guess the best font in English
locale if it's better using Chinese fonts or Japanese fonts?
I personally still think that we should disable
65-nonlatin.conf by default. which causes a trouble for the
preferences. it should works enough without it in Fedora at
least since we have the certain rules for the fonts and only
enable for the certain languages if any.
--
Akira TAGOH
10:15 p.m.
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-09五的 09:51 -0500，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/09/2012 04:19 AM, Peng Wu wrote:
> I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for
> monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts
> to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono"
doesn't
> contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback
> about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
replacing a mono font by proportional ones will cause
layout issues, which I think is more severe than the
mere aesthetic difference.
Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi Zen Hei
Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Mono"
but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font?
Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced font to
"WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono".
Thanks in advance,
Peng Wu
>
> To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are
> using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to
> explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and
> English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese
> users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this
> customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
yes, I understand this solution perfectly, as this was not
the first time discussed. But it does not solve the issue.
Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English
system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so
felt by many other Chinese users who had complained
before. The solution is there, but has never been
considered.
Qianqian
>
> Thanks,
> Peng Wu
>
>> Qianqian
>>
>>> especially please
>>> pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
>>> decorated with bold:
>>>
>>> Arabic - serif
>>> Urdu - serif
>>>
>>> that would means it may breaks the default font selection
>>> when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
>>> pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
>>> should be limited for the certain languages then.
>>>
>>> Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
>>>
>>> Tibetan (bo)
>>> Dzongkha (dz)
>>> Thai (th)
>>>
>>> On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
>>> would supports that language isn't installed by default.
>>> maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
>>>
>>> http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> --
>>> Akira TAGOH
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fonts mailing list
>>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> fonts mailing list
>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
>
1:55 p.m.
On 03/11/2012 11:15 PM, Peng Wu wrote:
Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi
Zen Hei
Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei
Mono" but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font?
this is quite difficult, for two reasons:
1. We do not have mono-spaced Latin glyphs on WQY's wiki,
2. This can add redundancy to the TTC font because the
bitmap related tables (BDAT/BLOC/EBDT/EBLC etc) can no
longer be merged. This will cause duplication of all bitmap
data for the shared Hanzi glyphs.
Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced font to
"WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono". Thanks in advance, Peng Wu
Are you unhappy with the AA-only Latin glyphs in
Zen Hei Mono? or the Chinese part? In the former
case, one possible solution is to add hinting to the Latin
glyphs.
Qianqian
>> Thanks,
>> Peng Wu
>>
>>> Qianqian
>>>
>>>> especially please
>>>> pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
>>>> decorated with bold:
>>>>
>>>> Arabic - serif
>>>> Urdu - serif
>>>>
>>>> that would means it may breaks the default font selection
>>>> when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
>>>> pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
>>>> should be limited for the certain languages then.
>>>>
>>>> Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
>>>>
>>>> Tibetan (bo)
>>>> Dzongkha (dz)
>>>> Thai (th)
>>>>
>>>> On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
>>>> would supports that language isn't installed by default.
>>>> maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
>>>>
>>>> http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> --
>>>> Akira TAGOH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> fonts mailing list
>>>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>>>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fonts mailing list
>>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
9:49 p.m.
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-12一的 14:55 -0400，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/11/2012 11:15 PM, Peng Wu wrote:
> Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi Zen Hei
> Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei
> Mono" but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font?
this is quite difficult, for two reasons:
1. We do not have mono-spaced Latin glyphs on WQY's wiki,
2. This can add redundancy to the TTC font because the
bitmap related tables (BDAT/BLOC/EBDT/EBLC etc) can no
longer be merged. This will cause duplication of all bitmap
data for the shared Hanzi glyphs.
For problem 2, how about to distribute two separated true type fonts?
One font for mono-spaced, one for sans or serif.
> Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced
font to
> "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono". Thanks in advance, Peng Wu
Are you unhappy with the AA-only Latin glyphs in
Zen Hei Mono? or the Chinese part? In the former
case, one possible solution is to add hinting to the Latin
glyphs.
Sorry, I think both Latin and Chinese glyphs are not so clear in small
size.
Best regards,
Peng Wu
Qianqian
>>> Thanks,
>>> Peng Wu
>>>
>>>> Qianqian
>>>>
>>>>> especially please
>>>>> pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
>>>>> decorated with bold:
>>>>>
>>>>> Arabic - serif
>>>>> Urdu - serif
>>>>>
>>>>> that would means it may breaks the default font selection
>>>>> when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
>>>>> pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
>>>>> should be limited for the certain languages then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
>>>>>
>>>>> Tibetan (bo)
>>>>> Dzongkha (dz)
>>>>> Thai (th)
>>>>>
>>>>> On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
>>>>> would supports that language isn't installed by default.
>>>>> maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> --
>>>>> Akira TAGOH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> fonts mailing list
>>>>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>>>>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> fonts mailing list
>>>> fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
>>>> http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
>
>
8:17 p.m.
Please add.
ko - Monospace - NanumGothic_Coding (nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts)
2012-03-06 (화), 20:41 +0900, Akira TAGOH:
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts
again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please
review it if it's what you are expecting. especially please
pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and
decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif
Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection
when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be
pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it
should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo)
Dzongkha (dz)
Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which
would supports that language isn't installed by default.
maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
--
Akira TAGOH
_______________________________________________
fonts mailing list
fonts(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts
http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
9:42 p.m.
>>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:17:27 +0900,
>>>> "ss" == sangu <sangu.fedora(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ss> Please add.
ss> ko - Monospace - NanumGothic_Coding (nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts)
Please file a bug against nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts to
add the generic names rule for monospace.
--
Akira TAGOH
4420
days inactive
4427
days old
17 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Akira TAGOH -
Behdad Esfahbod -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Peng Wu -
Qianqian Fang -
sangu