12:15 a.m.
Hi,
In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion
of installation defaults related to international language support, and
it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to
get better desktop language display coverage out of the box.
So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by
default on the desktop:
fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese,
fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, fonts-sinhala,
and xorg-x11-fonts.
I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this.
dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few
language groups, so they might be worth including too?
Any comments or suggestions on this?
Jens
12:20 a.m.
On 8/22/07, Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> wrote:
In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some
discussion
of installation defaults related to international language support, and
it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to
get better desktop language display coverage out of the box.
Might be a good idea. Given that spinning out Fedora is now relatively
easier, those with a predefined font content set might be well placed
to yum remove in %post perhaps. The only thing I see is that the
installation payload increases - given the trade off with aesthetics
that might not be too bad. Any pointers as to the payload quantum
increase ?
So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts
by
default on the desktop:
fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese,
fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, fonts-sinhala,
and xorg-x11-fonts.
Nice.
I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this.
Some "other" Linux OSs do this too :)
dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few
language groups, so they might be worth including too?
That's an overkill right ?
:Sankarshan
--
From Untruth, lead me to the Truth,
From Darkness, Lead me towards the Light,
From Death, Lead me to Life Eternal
2:02 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay さんは書きました:
The only thing I see is that the
installation payload increases - given the trade off with aesthetics
that might not be too bad. Any pointers as to the payload quantum
increase ?
Yep, that is the only downside really, but in terms of convenience to
most users it is worth it I think. The only really big fonts are the
CJK ones.
Here are some figures to give an idea:
29605 fonts-punjabi-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
43699 fonts-tamil-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
44635 fonts-malayalam-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
53215 fonts-gujarati-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
54951 fonts-hindi-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
63166 fonts-kannada-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
65283 fonts-oriya-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
68111 fonts-telugu-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
85979 fonts-bengali-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
110581 fonts-sinhala-0.2.2-1.fc7.noarch.rpm
128774 fonts-KOI8-R-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm
164358 xorg-x11-fonts-ethiopic-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
299715 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm
402185 xorg-x11-fonts-cyrillic-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
689518 fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm
922700 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
953223 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-75dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
993496 fonts-arabic-2.0-6.fc8.noarch.rpm
1033785 fonts-hebrew-0.100-5.fc8.noarch.rpm
1055599 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
1104957 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
1281179 xorg-x11-fonts-syriac-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm
4943756 wqy-bitmap-fonts-0.8.1-6.fc8.noarch.rpm
19125009 fonts-korean-2.2-3.fc8.noarch.rpm
25116800 fonts-chinese-3.03-7.fc8.noarch.rpm
29860882 fonts-japanese-0.20061016-8.fc8.noarch.rpm
Typically fonts don't get updated much between releases.
I don't know if we really need to have both 75dpi and 100dpi by default.
Jens
3:09 p.m.
Le mercredi 22 août 2007 à 10:50 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay a
écrit :
> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a
few
> language groups, so they might be worth including too?
I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now that
Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is good
enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale)
That's an overkill right ?
It's not an overkill, the complete variant of dejavu includes many
unicode blocks we have no support for in other fonts, so it's referenced
in the associated language groups (it's *not* referenced in the language
groups dejavu-lgc already covers)
I'd like Fedora to do a periodic review (at Test1 or 2) of what fonts
are installed by default, so new fonts are added and fonts superseded by
others are dropped. Big font lists are very user-unfriendly, especially
when they stuffed with fonts only a few locales use (ie block-specific
fonts as opposed to pan-unicode ones)
--
Nicolas Mailhot
7:43 p.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Nicolas Mailhot さんは書きました:
>> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in
quite a few
>> language groups, so they might be worth including too?
I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now that
Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is good
enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale)
Hm, ok - do we have suitable Farsi font currently in Fedora?
Presumably dejavu-fonts will eventually obsolete dejavu-lgc-fonts?
It's not an overkill, the complete variant of dejavu includes
many
unicode blocks we have no support for in other fonts, so it's referenced
in the associated language groups (it's *not* referenced in the language
groups dejavu-lgc already covers)
Right, so from that point of view it would be nice to default to the
full font and there is not much difference in terms of size.
I'd like Fedora to do a periodic review (at Test1 or 2) of what
fonts
are installed by default, so new fonts are added and fonts superseded by
others are dropped. Big font lists are very user-unfriendly, especially
when they stuffed with fonts only a few locales use (ie block-specific
fonts as opposed to pan-unicode ones)
Sounds like a good idea. Fedora I18n could help with that specially for
Asian fonts. Is there a good place on the wiki to put a reminder to do
that during each release test cycle? In checklist under RelEng perhaps?
Jens
3:18 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Le Jeu 23 août 2007 02:43, Jens Petersen a écrit :
Nicolas Mailhot さんは書きました:
>>> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a
>>> few
>>> language groups, so they might be worth including too?
>
> I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now
that
> Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is
good
> enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale)
Hm, ok - do we have suitable Farsi font currently in Fedora?
Yes. However we don't have a dual arabic/farsi font right now so you
can't default install fonts for those languages (if the arabic variant
gets higher fontconfig prio farsi users are pissed and vice versa).
The problem is ara and farsi share the same unicode glyph range but
they're not supposed to be drawn the same way
Presumably dejavu-fonts will eventually obsolete dejavu-lgc-fonts?
Hopefully dejavu will include both arabic glyph variants someday so we
can install fonts with arabic glyphs without users objecting.
Sounds like a good idea. Fedora I18n could help with that specially
for
Asian fonts. Is there a good place on the wiki to put a reminder to
do
that during each release test cycle? In checklist under RelEng
perhaps?
Debian maintains a font table in a wiki for its installer, maybe we
can do the same
--
Nicolas Mailhot
12:40 a.m.
hi Jens
it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if
it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font
for Chinese locales? the bitmap glyphs were continuously improved
in the past ~3 years based on the embedded bitmaps in fonts-chinese
and the wqy-bitmapfont was widely used by simplified Chinese users.
also, WenQuanYi Project plans to release a dual-width bitmap font
similar to GNU
Unifont, by merging about 28,000 16x16 new Chinese glyphs
with the latest release of Unifont (the Chinese glyphs in unifont is
neither complete nor optimized). The new font will cover about 46000
unicode code points and serve as a basic multi-lingual support (such
as in installer) and system font fall-back.
we just put out a new GPL Chinese font, Zen Hei, for public testing.
This is a Hei Ti style (Gothic in Japanese or Dotum in Korean)
Chinese font, servers for general purpose Chinese display and
printing. Current, it has 20194 Chinese characters (or ~32000 glyphs
if include Hangul) and covers zh_cn/sg/tw/hk/mo locales. The file
is reasonably small including about 100,000 fine-tuned embedded
bitmap glyphs. The beta version can be downloaded at
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=128192&package_...
If these fonts are interesting to fedora i18n group, I would be glad
to help for testing and further improving.
Please let me know.
Qianqian
Jens Petersen wrote:
Hi,
In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some
discussion of installation defaults related to international language
support, and it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts
by default to get better desktop language display coverage out of the
box.
So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by
default on the desktop:
fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese,
fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean,
fonts-sinhala, and xorg-x11-fonts.
I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this.
dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few
language groups, so they might be worth including too?
Any comments or suggestions on this?
Jens
--
Fedora-i18n-list mailing list
Fedora-i18n-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list
1:04 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
by the way, I forget to introduce myself and my project - the
WenQuanYi project (http://wqy.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/enindex.cgi).
I started the WenQuanYi project in 2004 for making better fonts for Chinese,
Japanese and Korean users. It is now becoming arguably the largest
collaborative open-source font development project. In the past 3 years,
we have completed drawing over 40,000 Chinese bitmap glyphs from
scratch and improved 30,000~40,000 existing Chinese glyphs.
Now we have full coverage of CJK Unified Ideographics (U4E00-U9FA5,
20,902 char.) and CJK Unified Ideographics Extension A (U3400~U4DB5,
6,582 characters) at 8,9,10,11,12,14pt, for on-screen display of Chinese
characters.
Parallel to the work of Arne Götje's team, who led the efforts of
building new
fonts based on Arphic Ming/Kai fonts, we also spend lots of of our time
for outline font development. Our first outline font, the ZenHei is
now in testing. This font has complete coverage of zh_* locales, ko locale,
and is about 100 characters away for full ja coverage.
There has been thousands of volunteers participated our font
development via our wiki website. I think it is quite meaningful
to put forth these works and make real impact to high-quality
international support for Linux community. I am also glad to be
involved for continuously improving these works together
with our developer teams and share with you our passion and
creativities.
Jens Petersen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some
> discussion of installation defaults related to international language
> support, and it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts
> by default to get better desktop language display coverage out of the
> box.
>
> So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by
> default on the desktop:
>
> fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese,
> fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean,
> fonts-sinhala, and xorg-x11-fonts.
>
> I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this.
>
> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few
> language groups, so they might be worth including too?
>
> Any comments or suggestions on this?
>
> Jens
>
> --
> Fedora-i18n-list mailing list
> Fedora-i18n-list(a)redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list
>
>
>
--
Fedora-i18n-list mailing list
Fedora-i18n-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list
2:28 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Qianqian Fang さんは書きました:
I started the WenQuanYi project in 2004 for making better fonts for
Chinese, Japanese and Korean users. It is now becoming arguably the largest
collaborative open-source font development project. In the past 3 years,
we have completed drawing over 40,000 Chinese bitmap glyphs from
scratch and improved 30,000~40,000 existing Chinese glyphs.
Now we have full coverage of CJK Unified Ideographics (U4E00-U9FA5,
20,902 char.) and CJK Unified Ideographics Extension A (U3400~U4DB5,
6,582 characters) at 8,9,10,11,12,14pt, for on-screen display of Chinese
characters.
Yes, it is a really great achievement! And as you write a very good
example of free open peer-based development. :-)
There has been thousands of volunteers participated our font
development via our wiki website. I think it is quite meaningful
to put forth these works and make real impact to high-quality
international support for Linux community. I am also glad to be
involved for continuously improving these works together
with our developer teams and share with you our passion and
creativities.
It is great we have wqy-bitmap-fonts included in Fedora thanks to you.
I certainly hope to see many more users of wqy fonts in the future!
Jens
2:17 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Hi Qianqian,
Thanks for your mail.
Qianqian Fang さんは書きました:
it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious
if
it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font
for Chinese locales? the bitmap glyphs were continuously improved
in the past ~3 years based on the embedded bitmaps in fonts-chinese
and the wqy-bitmapfont was widely used by simplified Chinese users.
I think it is certainly worth considering. One way to get more input on
this might be to run a user survey say asking the preferred default
fonts for each language.
BTW it so happens that currently we are working to move cjkunifonts and
taipei-fonts out of fonts-chinese into separate packages: so now is a
good time to start discussing this.
also, WenQuanYi Project plans to release a dual-width bitmap font
similar to GNU
Unifont, by merging about 28,000 16x16 new Chinese glyphs
with the latest release of Unifont (the Chinese glyphs in unifont is
neither complete nor optimized). The new font will cover about 46000
unicode code points and serve as a basic multi-lingual support (such
as in installer) and system font fall-back.
Very nice. :)
we just put out a new GPL Chinese font, Zen Hei, for public testing.
This is a Hei Ti style (Gothic in Japanese or Dotum in Korean)
Chinese font, servers for general purpose Chinese display and
printing. Current, it has 20194 Chinese characters (or ~32000 glyphs
if include Hangul) and covers zh_cn/sg/tw/hk/mo locales. The file
is reasonably small including about 100,000 fine-tuned embedded
bitmap glyphs. The beta version can be downloaded at
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=128192&package_...
Ok great, thank you for that too - we would certainly try to take a look
at those. Are you planning to package it for Fedora when it is
released? :-)
Jens
9:42 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Jens Petersen wrote:
One way to get more input on this might be to run a user survey say
asking the preferred default fonts for each language.
that's a great idea
Ok great, thank you for that too - we would certainly try to take a
look at those. Are you planning to package it for Fedora when it is
released? :-)
definitely. I am in the final stage of polishing the font and drawing
tens of missing Japanese Hanzi. When I am satisfy with the font, I will
submit it as a Fedora new package for review.
1:03 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Qianqian Fang さんは書きました:
it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious
if
it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font
for Chinese locales?
I think wqy-bitmap-fonts will be installed by default for Chinese
support in Fedora 8 but the truetype cjkunifonts will remain the default
desktop font for Chinese for now.
Thanks, Jens
10:50 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
that's great! I am so glad that wqy-bitmap-fonts made it to F8.
I am looking forward to contributing more Chinese fonts to
Fedora in the near future.
Qianqian
Jens Petersen wrote:
Qianqian Fang さんは書きました:
> it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if
> it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font
> for Chinese locales?
I think wqy-bitmap-fonts will be installed by default for Chinese
support in Fedora 8 but the truetype cjkunifonts will remain the
default desktop font for Chinese for now.
Thanks, Jens
--
Fedora-i18n-list mailing list
Fedora-i18n-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list
8:13 a.m.
On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 15:15 +1000, Jens Petersen wrote:
In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some
discussion
of installation defaults related to international language support, and
it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to
get better desktop language display coverage out of the box.
I think it's a good idea. I'd suggest that we do it by moving the fonts to be
"default" in the base-x group of comps.
Jeremy
3:12 p.m.
Le mercredi 22 août 2007 à 09:13 -0400, Jeremy Katz a écrit :
On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 15:15 +1000, Jens Petersen wrote:
> In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion
> of installation defaults related to international language support, and
> it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to
> get better desktop language display coverage out of the box.
I think it's a good idea. I'd suggest that we do it by moving the
fonts to be "default" in the base-x group of comps.
However a copy should be kept in language-specific groups so the
classification is not lost
--
Nicolas Mailhot
8:46 p.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Thanks to everyone for all the useful comments and feedback.
So I have added the following fonts to the default section of
the f8 base-x comps group for now:
fonts-ISO8859-2*, fonts-KOI8-R*, fonts-arabic, fonts-bengali,
fonts-chinese, fonts-gujarati, fonts-hebrew, fonts-hindi,
fonts-japanese, fonts-kannada, fonts-korean, fonts-oriya,
fonts-punjabi, fonts-sinhala, fonts-tamil, fonts-telugu,
jomolhari-fonts, xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-*,
xorg-x11-fonts-cyrillic, xorg-x11-fonts-ethiopic
I hope that looks reasonable.
[*] I was wondering if we really need both 75dpi and 100dpi variants of
the bitmap fonts installed by default for fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R,
and xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9? Perhaps it would be sufficient
to just install the 75dpi fonts by default and make the 100dpi ones
optional?
Jens
PS I have been pondering lately if we should have a comps group
for fonts? Perhaps that would be a good easy place to keep all
the fonts packages together?
1:04 a.m.
New subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage
Le jeudi 23 août 2007 à 11:46 +1000, Jens Petersen a écrit :
[*] I was wondering if we really need both 75dpi and 100dpi variants
of
the bitmap fonts installed by default for fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R,
and xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9? Perhaps it would be sufficient
to just install the 75dpi fonts by default and make the 100dpi ones
optional?
IMHO:
- bitmap fonts should be optional except for languages like chinese who
really want them
- hardware has been using a ~100doi resolution for years. Drop the 75dpi
variant
--
Nicolas Mailhot
6097
days inactive
6103
days old
16 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Jens-Ulrik Petersen -
Jeremy Katz -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Qianqian Fang -
Sankarshan (সঙ্কর্ষণ)