Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
-Mike
On 5/22/07, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
-Mike
I think it's *right thing* to do. :)
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 13:45 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
It depends on what is meant by "image". png and jpeg have vastly different compression characteristics. Using jpeg where appropriate can save someone on dialup a tremendous amount of time. However, many of the images we create as SVG are going to be the kind that store well as png...
Since it looks like both jpeg and png are free formats, I'd like to avoid a "only pngs allowed here" policy. Both png and jpg have their place.
-Toshio
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 13:45 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
It depends on what is meant by "image". png and jpeg have vastly different compression characteristics. Using jpeg where appropriate can save someone on dialup a tremendous amount of time. However, many of the images we create as SVG are going to be the kind that store well as png...
Since it looks like both jpeg and png are free formats, I'd like to avoid a "only pngs allowed here" policy. Both png and jpg have their place.
-Toshio
We're not saying we will force someone to use png format only. However we'll *encourage* to use patent-free png format in Fedora Project. Regards,
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 12:38 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote:
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 13:45 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
It depends on what is meant by "image". png and jpeg have vastly different compression characteristics. Using jpeg where appropriate can save someone on dialup a tremendous amount of time. However, many of the images we create as SVG are going to be the kind that store well as png...
Since it looks like both jpeg and png are free formats, I'd like to avoid a "only pngs allowed here" policy. Both png and jpg have their place.
-Toshio
We're not saying we will force someone to use png format only. However we'll *encourage* to use patent-free png format in Fedora Project.
Is there a current patent on jpeg? FSF has encouraged people to use jpeg in the past and the wikipedia article mizmo pointed to seems to say that the company that was asserting patent rights has had its patent invalidated and is no longer pursuing any claims.
wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Potential_patent_issues Link from the wikipedia article:: http://www.pubpat.org/jpegsurrendered.htm
-Toshio
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
Is there a current patent on jpeg? FSF has encouraged people to use jpeg in the past and the wikipedia article mizmo pointed to seems to say that the company that was asserting patent rights has had its patent invalidated and is no longer pursuing any claims.
wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Potential_patent_issues Link from the wikipedia article:: http://www.pubpat.org/jpegsurrendered.htm
-Toshio
Disclaimer: "I'm not a lawyer. I rather use with paten-free format"
Regards,
Thomas Chung wrote:
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
Disclaimer: "I'm not a lawyer. I rather use with paten-free format"
I think jpegs are like jay-walking now. No one cares though someone might pretend to :)
-Mike
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 13:28 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote:
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
Is there a current patent on jpeg? FSF has encouraged people to use jpeg in the past and the wikipedia article mizmo pointed to seems to say that the company that was asserting patent rights has had its patent invalidated and is no longer pursuing any claims.
wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Potential_patent_issues Link from the wikipedia article:: http://www.pubpat.org/jpegsurrendered.htm
-Toshio
Disclaimer: "I'm not a lawyer. I rather use with paten-free format"
What am I supposed to see there? I clicked on the link for "What is the patent situation with jpeg?" and found this:
''' For the JPEG standard, IS 10918-1 no patent declarations were received prior to its publication that, in the opinion of the committee at the time, applied to the baseline implementation. [...] 2002, it became widely publicised that one or more companies were making claims in some countries that they had patents which they believed read on the original JPEG standard IS10918-1. The JPEG Committee produces standards, which have a global basis, and are unable to comment on the validity of such claims, or potential infringement by particular implementations within specific jurisdictions. No such claims have (at January 2004) been registered formally through the appropriate channels at ISO and ITU-T, so far as the Webmaster is aware. ''' [1]_
Googling has shown more citations of the Fogent Patent which, as noted earlier, has been both ruled invalid and has expired, and some information about optional features of JPEG which web browsers don't understand which are patented but nothing else (For example, [2]_ and [3]_).
Basically, I have yet to see any indication that there are current, valid patents on jpeg so I don't understand why you think it does not qualify as a "patent-free format".
[1]_: Jpeg groups FAQ on possible jpeg patents http://www.jpeg.org/faq.phtml?action=show_answer&question_id=q3f042a5e42...
[2]_: JFIF entry which shows no known patents http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000018.shtml [3]_: JPEG entry which shows only the Fogent patent claim http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000017.shtml
-Toshio
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, I have yet to see any indication that there are current, valid patents on jpeg so I don't understand why you think it does not qualify as a "patent-free format".
It seems we're arguing for something we don't know for sure. We all agree png is "patent-free format" but we do not know for sure if there is still *potential* patent issue remaining with jpg. That's what we're trying to avoid. Once again, I'm not lawyer so if you believe jpg is "patent-free format" for sure, please be my guest. :) Regards,
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 15:42 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote:
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
Basically, I have yet to see any indication that there are current, valid patents on jpeg so I don't understand why you think it does not qualify as a "patent-free format".
It seems we're arguing for something we don't know for sure. We all agree png is "patent-free format" but we do not know for sure if there is still *potential* patent issue remaining with jpg. That's what we're trying to avoid. Once again, I'm not lawyer so if you believe jpg is "patent-free format" for sure, please be my guest. :)
What I'm saying is that I haven't been able to find anything that claims there are any current patent problems with jpeg. Which means that jpeg is as "patent-free" as png -- ie I can also not find anything which claims that there's any patent problems with png.
Bringing up a patent that is both expired and ruled invalid by the patent office and saying that is a reason to avoid a format is just wrong-headed. Should we not use SSL and GPG because they use algorithms which have expired patents?
If you can point to any current claims that the format is patent encumbered then we have a reason to ban its use. Otherwise you're just spreading fear of something that doesn't exist to prevent the use of a free format.
-Toshio
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
What I'm saying is that I haven't been able to find anything that claims there are any current patent problems with jpeg. Which means that jpeg is as "patent-free" as png -- ie I can also not find anything which claims that there's any patent problems with png.
Bringing up a patent that is both expired and ruled invalid by the patent office and saying that is a reason to avoid a format is just wrong-headed. Should we not use SSL and GPG because they use algorithms which have expired patents?
If you can point to any current claims that the format is patent encumbered then we have a reason to ban its use. Otherwise you're just spreading fear of something that doesn't exist to prevent the use of a free format.
-Toshio
Perhaps, it's time to ask someone who knows about the law. Let's ask our Fedora Project Board and its lawyers for better answer.
Max, could you ask the board and its lawyers if JPEG is "patent-free" format as PNG ? Also which format is more appropriate to use our Fedora Project website? We're trying to standardize image format used in Fedora Project cross-wide. Regards,
Thomas Chung wrote:
We're not saying we will force someone to use png format only. However we'll *encourage* to use patent-free png format in Fedora Project.
Please, do this, *encourage* but not *force*. We may want to use photos, for example a photo of OLPC or photos of Fedora contributors present at some event and PNG has very bad compression for photos.
On 5/22/07, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 13:45 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote:
Anyone have a problem with us using SVG for image sources and PNG for final copies on our websites? We can grandfather this in but mizmo suggested it on the websites-list. I think its a good idea.
It depends on what is meant by "image". png and jpeg have vastly different compression characteristics. Using jpeg where appropriate can save someone on dialup a tremendous amount of time. However, many of the images we create as SVG are going to be the kind that store well as png...
Sure, but often images are converted to 24bit png even when that is not needed. I suggest (if not already done) using ImageMagick and a recipe like:
convert -quality 0 +dither -colors 256 infile.png out.png
whenever possible to maximize the gains of compression
HTH
Gianluca
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Gianluca Sforna -
Mike McGrath -
Nicu Buculei -
Thomas Chung -
Toshio Kuratomi