10:53 a.m.
Hello,
I would really like to understand the policy of the schedule of major
KDE component version updates in Fedora.
I know of the Plasma release schedule problem. But this is bigger
apparently. The bug that forced me to leave Fedora a year ago was
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1746465 . This bug was
caused by a version update of KDE Frameworks, affected usability, and
took over a month to fix.
Following this list, I see that breaking updates to KDE are kind of a
regular occurrence:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org...
I would guess that the component version updates mid-cycle cause the
breaking updates. I would really appreciate some explanation of what
the version update policy is.
Also is there *any way at all* to have a reliable KDE environment on
Fedora, apart from not updating the entire system?
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
4:23 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:53 PM Mikhail Ramendik <mr(a)ramendik.ru> wrote:
Hello,
I would really like to understand the policy of the schedule of major
KDE component version updates in Fedora.
I know of the Plasma release schedule problem. But this is bigger
apparently. The bug that forced me to leave Fedora a year ago was
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1746465 . This bug was
caused by a version update of KDE Frameworks, affected usability, and
took over a month to fix.
Following this list, I see that breaking updates to KDE are kind of a
regular occurrence:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org...
I would guess that the component version updates mid-cycle cause the
breaking updates. I would really appreciate some explanation of what
the version update policy is.
Also is there *any way at all* to have a reliable KDE environment on
Fedora, apart from not updating the entire system?
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
_______________________________________________
As a long Fedora and KDE user I usually don't enter such discussions, but
nevertheless, I feel a response is in order.
Following your own anecdotal experience and some random bug report you
_assume_ that your own personal experience is "regular occurrence" (your
words, no mine).
Let me share _my_ anecdotal experience: I run a business on Fedora and
CentOS. ~20 desktops and workstations (Most running Fedora/KDE) and far too
many servers and VMs.
Sure, I see breakage from time to time, but my experience couldn't be any
different than yours.
Heck, I'm typing this on an aging Xeon workstation that has been running
Fedora/KDE since Fedora ~12-13 (!).
Does my personal anecdotal experience negate yours, simply because I have
more PCs? Nope.
... and this is the exact reason I avoid making broad generalizations. E.g.
" breaking updates to KDE are kind of a
regular occurrence"...
Happy holidays,
Gilboa
3:42 p.m.
On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 10:24, Gilboa Davara <gilboad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
As a long Fedora and KDE user I usually don't enter such
discussions, but nevertheless, I feel a response is in order.
Following your own anecdotal experience and some random bug report you _assume_ that your
own personal experience is "regular occurrence" (your words, no mine).
Let me share _my_ anecdotal experience: I run a business on Fedora and CentOS. ~20
desktops and workstations (Most running Fedora/KDE) and far too many servers and VMs.
Sure, I see breakage from time to time, but my experience couldn't be any different
than yours.
Heck, I'm typing this on an aging Xeon workstation that has been running Fedora/KDE
since Fedora ~12-13 (!).
Does my personal anecdotal experience negate yours, simply because I have more PCs?
Nope.
... and this is the exact reason I avoid making broad generalizations. E.g. "
breaking updates to KDE are kind of a
regular occurrence"...
CentOS is a very different beast from Fedora in this regard. The EPEL
build of KDE uses the LTS version.
My question is specifically about drops of new major component
versions. I am trying to understand why the schedule is like this,
beyond the matter of Plasma releases (as the problem I had was with
Framework and not Plasma).
New major component version drops are a bit of a lottery; I can well
believe that for some people they always went flawlessly so far, but
they are an inherent risk. If I could understand the schedule, perhaps
I could come up with a mitigation strategy.
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
7:54 p.m.
First of all, I would like to mention that I'm using Fedora KDE since F23 or F24 and
I had it installed for 4+ years without re-installation on my previous laptop, so I also
lean towards Golboa's experience, rather than yours.
But I understand your point and the reason for the existing schedule is pretty simple, as
far as I understand it, while majority of the people who are using Fedora - Gnome users
and Gnome and Fedora's schedule are perfectly aligned, giving a great focus and
respective amount of time to polish Fedora's Gnome experience.
KDE is a minority of Fedora's users, although it's a second most popular flavour
(there was a statistics published few months ago), I believe it's about 7% percent
(don't quote me on that) of all fedora users, compared to 70%+ for Gnome, hence
it's ... hence ... for the lack of a better work, less polished at prioritized
experience?
There is actually a discussion item for tomorrows (today's) call of KDE SIG to align
KDE and Fedora release schedule.
Being said that, I can see a point why one would like to freeze a version of some
package, but based on my personal experience, I'm not sure there is a problem that
needs solving when it comes to the KDE Plasma specifically, empthesys on my experience.
One the reasons I actually use KDE Plasma with Fedora is because I would prefer several
package sets to be up to date as much as possible, that includes kernel, linux-firmware,
DE (plasma in this case), mesa and application set (kf and kde-apps in this case). I think
generally Fedora is doing an amazing job in keeping exactly those sets at upstream level.
If there is actually a need for freezing packages, I actually like what Manjaro is doing
with separation of [package] and [package]-git to get latest stable or THE latest
packages, maybe Fedora can do something similar and provide package or DNF group if
that's possible, because, you know, dependencies.
Just wanted to provide my input.
---
Best regards, Alex
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Sunday, January 3rd, 2021 at 22:42, Mikhail Ramendik <mr(a)ramendik.ru> wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 10:24, Gilboa Davara gilboad(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > As a long Fedora and KDE user I usually don't enter such discussions, but
nevertheless, I feel a response is in order.
> >
> > Following your own anecdotal experience and some random bug report you assume
that your own personal experience is "regular occurrence" (your words, no
mine).
> >
> > Let me share my anecdotal experience: I run a business on Fedora and CentOS. ~20
desktops and workstations (Most running Fedora/KDE) and far too many servers and VMs.
> >
> > Sure, I see breakage from time to time, but my experience couldn't be any
different than yours.
> >
> > Heck, I'm typing this on an aging Xeon workstation that has been running
Fedora/KDE since Fedora ~12-13 (!).
> >
> > Does my personal anecdotal experience negate yours, simply because I have more
PCs? Nope.
> >
> > ... and this is the exact reason I avoid making broad generalizations. E.g.
" breaking updates to KDE are kind of a
> >
> > regular occurrence"...
>
> CentOS is a very different beast from Fedora in this regard. The EPEL
>
> build of KDE uses the LTS version.
>
> My question is specifically about drops of new major component
>
> versions. I am trying to understand why the schedule is like this,
>
> beyond the matter of Plasma releases (as the problem I had was with
>
> Framework and not Plasma).
>
> New major component version drops are a bit of a lottery; I can well
>
> believe that for some people they always went flawlessly so far, but
>
> they are an inherent risk. If I could understand the schedule, perhaps
>
> I could come up with a mitigation strategy.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
>
> Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
>
> not reflect the views of any organization
>
> kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>
> List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
4:04 p.m.
Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
My question is specifically about drops of new major component
versions.
In the context of the bug you specifically mentioned trigging this thread
(kf5-kinit crashes), that was not a new major component version (arguably),
but a minor release update for kde frameworks.
What we could learn from this is to emphasis again how important testing and
feedback are (ie, updates-testing) before pushing these releases to stable
updates. If that had been more rigorous, this bug could have been caught in
time before hitting stable updates.
-- Rex
8:17 a.m.
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 at 22:04, Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)gmail.com> wrote:
In the context of the bug you specifically mentioned trigging this
thread
(kf5-kinit crashes), that was not a new major component version (arguably),
but a minor release update for kde frameworks.
What we could learn from this is to emphasis again how important testing and
feedback are (ie, updates-testing) before pushing these releases to stable
updates. If that had been more rigorous, this bug could have been caught in
time before hitting stable updates.
I have a specific suggestion. Could it be possible to create a time
lag, something like 2-3 weeks, for any non-security KDE updates,
including Frameworks, between pushing to current Fedora and previous
Fedora? People on current Fedora have a greater tolerance for
troublesome updates - and more ability, in general, to report bugs. My
own use case, with a production workstation (not used for developing
serious code), is clearly for "current minus one" Fedora.
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
10:24 a.m.
On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 02:17:23PM +0000, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
I have a specific suggestion. Could it be possible to create a time
lag, something like 2-3 weeks, for any non-security KDE updates,
including Frameworks, between pushing to current Fedora and previous
Fedora? People on current Fedora have a greater tolerance for
troublesome updates - and more ability, in general, to report bugs. My
own use case, with a production workstation (not used for developing
serious code), is clearly for "current minus one" Fedora.
This is similar to what the kernel folks do.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:54 a.m.
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 16:24, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I have a specific suggestion. Could it be possible to create a
time
> lag, something like 2-3 weeks, for any non-security KDE updates,
> including Frameworks, between pushing to current Fedora and previous
> Fedora? People on current Fedora have a greater tolerance for
> troublesome updates - and more ability, in general, to report bugs. My
> own use case, with a production workstation (not used for developing
> serious code), is clearly for "current minus one" Fedora.
This is similar to what the kernel folks do.
Yup. Could this go on the KDE SIG agenda with a reasonable chance of
adopting it?..
For me this really matters a lot.
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
2:43 p.m.
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 18:02, Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a specific suggestion. Could it be possible to create a
time
> lag, something like 2-3 weeks, for any non-security KDE updates,
> including Frameworks, between pushing to current Fedora and previous
> Fedora?
We can consider that, sure.
If any work is needed to cover admin/tracing overhead I would gladly
volunteer. (I'm not really good at C++ though).
I really want to return to Fedora and lowering the chance of a
breaking KDE update on the workstation would be just what I need.
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
10:16 a.m.
Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I would really like to understand the policy of the schedule of major
KDE component version updates in Fedora.
This is still largely accurate:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Update_policy
about the reasoning behind how and why.
-- Rex
10:04 a.m.
Hello,
On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 16:16, Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is still largely accurate:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Update_policy
about the reasoning behind how and why.
Thank you very much for the link!
This text is different, in a way that is very important for me, from
what I experienced a bit over a year ago on Fedora 29, which was then
the previous-but-still-supported Fedora version.
The text says: "Users of previous Fedora releases need to understand
that there will be no further updates to KDE during the life of this
Fedora release. Exceptions will be for bug and security fixes that the
KDE-SIG is able to backport."
I was on Fedora 29 back then, and my work was affected by
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1746465 . This bug was
triggered in August 2019 by a KDE Frameworks version update in Fedora
29, while Fedora 30 was released in April 2019.
I have checked, and the text is like this since 2014:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SIGs/KDE/Update_policy&di...
. So apparently, and unfortunately for me, the policy does not seem to
be followed.
Is there any chance that KDE SIG might adopt this policy and stop KDE
package version updates for non-latest Fedora versions? This would
really be a very happy change for me. I would want to help out with
this as needed, but sadly my C++ abilities are rather limited (I'm a
technical writer).
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
10:15 a.m.
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 at 16:04, Mikhail Ramendik <mr(a)ramendik.ru> wrote:
Is there any chance that KDE SIG might adopt this policy and stop
KDE
package version updates for non-latest Fedora versions?
To clarify, I mean stopping updating *upstream* package versions, with
security/bigfixes backported on a best-effort basis - exactly as the
wiki says.
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
3:57 p.m.
Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
I was on Fedora 29 back then, and my work was affected by
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1746465 . This bug was
triggered in August 2019 by a KDE Frameworks version update in Fedora
29, while Fedora 30 was released in April 2019.
I have checked, and the text is like this since 2014:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SIGs/KDE/Update_policy&di...
. So apparently, and unfortunately for me, the policy does not seem
to
be followed.
This policy is *only* (well *primarily*) about plasma releases, not
frameworks. Frameworks are supposed to be always stable and generally not
introduce experience-breaking changes.
-- Rex
5:13 a.m.
On Thu, 2020-12-31 at 16:53 +0000, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I would really like to understand the policy of the schedule of major
KDE component version updates in Fedora.
I know of the Plasma release schedule problem. But this is bigger
apparently. The bug that forced me to leave Fedora a year ago was
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1746465 . This bug was
caused by a version update of KDE Frameworks, affected usability, and
took over a month to fix.
That is why I use F32 , instead F33 .
this is a very simplistic summary
KDE is not scheduled with official release , we got some discussions
about that, i.e. we are on our own. I use KDE since Fedora core 1 and
the major problems was that we trust in upstream , when it say that is
ready and sometimes it is not .
Updates form kde 3 to 4 , and 4 to plasma 5 was a disaster but mainly
because upstream calls it stable when it wasn’t.
Following this list, I see that breaking updates to KDE are kind of
a
regular occurrence:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org...
I would guess that the component version updates mid-cycle cause the
breaking updates. I would really appreciate some explanation of what
the version update policy is.
Also is there *any way at all* to have a reliable KDE environment on
Fedora, apart from not updating the entire system?
--
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do
not reflect the views of any organization
_______________________________________________
kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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--
Sérgio M. B.
1199
days inactive
1205
days old
14 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Alex Gurenko -
Gilboa Davara -
Matthew Miller -
Mikhail Ramendik -
Rex Dieter -
Sérgio Basto