I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful.
-- Rex
On 05/28/15 02:14, Rex Dieter wrote:
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful.
Good idea....
Am 27.05.2015 um 20:14 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful
and how do you imagine a sensible update to F22 for long time users which are pretty happy with KDE4 as it is, having stored passwords and heavily customized their desktop?
start from scratch as with Fedora 9 and spend weeks to get a workable desktop again? while i love playing around with my systems they are in the first place to do daily work and not fix them all day long to get to a similar state they where before
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.05.2015 um 20:14 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful
and how do you imagine a sensible update to F22 for long time users which are pretty happy with KDE4 as it is, having stored passwords and heavily customized their desktop?
Kde4 apps will continue to use their existing kde4 kwallet(s)
start from scratch as with Fedora 9 and spend weeks to get a workable desktop again?
kf5 apps essentially are starting from scratch, yes.
-- Rex
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:36 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.05.2015 um 20:14 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful
and how do you imagine a sensible update to F22 for long time users which are pretty happy with KDE4 as it is, having stored passwords and heavily customized their desktop?
Kde4 apps will continue to use their existing kde4 kwallet(s)
start from scratch as with Fedora 9 and spend weeks to get a workable desktop again?
kf5 apps essentially are starting from scratch, yes
well, i have no other words than "a total mess" for different apps using a different wallet, some starting from scratch, some not and at the end of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not, he expects that he can work with his computer as before and the reason why Linux is meaningless on the desktop is that only a few people are idiots like me going through all this mess every few years
Reindl Harald wrote:
of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not
I think your comment supports my argument that the kf5 kwallet migration process hurts more than it helps.
It needs to startup and get out of the way, and don't bother the user (and "just work").
-- Rex
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not
I think your comment supports my argument that the kf5 kwallet migration process hurts more than it helps.
It needs to startup and get out of the way, and don't bother the user (and "just work")
well and what happens to applications which are now KDE4 using the old wallet and over time migrated to kf5? there has to be just *one* wallet and that's it - anything else leads in troubles and that combined with the systray no longer working for all applications (as user i don't care if an application is written in QT, GTK or whatever language) F22 sounds like another release at best to skip except on servers
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not
I think your comment supports my argument that the kf5 kwallet migration process hurts more than it helps.
It needs to startup and get out of the way, and don't bother the user (and "just work")
well and what happens to applications which are now KDE4 using the old wallet and over time migrated to kf5?
Fedora generally won't ever upgrade kde4->kf5 apps in a release, so the primary time that will happen is on new releases.
In that case, users are free to manually initiate importing if they wish.
-- Rex
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:56 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not
I think your comment supports my argument that the kf5 kwallet migration process hurts more than it helps.
It needs to startup and get out of the way, and don't bother the user (and "just work")
well and what happens to applications which are now KDE4 using the old wallet and over time migrated to kf5?
Fedora generally won't ever upgrade kde4->kf5 apps in a release, so the primary time that will happen is on new releases.
don't change anything over the long
In that case, users are free to manually initiate importing if they wish
in other words: it may take years where you have to take care after each dist-upgrade how and if it possible to migrate things left and right by hand until anything is kf5 only - what a nice future
well, and at the point we are finished the same circle likely starts again with KDE6 - honestly that is all bullshit - there is no valid reason that applications can't use their previous settings except "we as upsteram developers don't care, throw away all the working code and settings because it's easier to not care about our endusers"
that said from somebody maintaing the same software without compatiblity breaks for 12 years now for hundrets of users and any internal change is only my problem and has to be *totally* invisible for my endusers
On 05/28/15 07:56, Rex Dieter wrote:
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not
I think your comment supports my argument that the kf5 kwallet migration process hurts more than it helps.
It needs to startup and get out of the way, and don't bother the user (and "just work")
well and what happens to applications which are now KDE4 using the old wallet and over time migrated to kf5?
Fedora generally won't ever upgrade kde4->kf5 apps in a release, so the primary time that will happen is on new releases.
In that case, users are free to manually initiate importing if they wish.
Is there a list of applications that actually make use of the wallet? I ask this since when I've looked in the wallet all I've seen is "Form Data" used by Chrome and my VPN and Wifi passwords. I've not seen any evidence of applications using the wallet for their settings.
That said, it would have been "nice" if when config (rc) files were moved to new locations they would have been transitioned.
On Thursday 28 May 2015 01:41:11 Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.05.2015 um 01:36 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.05.2015 um 20:14 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Ed Greshko wrote:
I have a gpg encrypted wallet on my F21 system. I just tried a migration in F22 and it failed to decrypt the wallet. As a matter of fact, it didn't even ask me for the pass-phrase for the old wallet. Is this type of migration unsupported?
good question.
I think we should consider just disabling the "migration" of wallet content anyway, it's way more confusing than it is helpful
and how do you imagine a sensible update to F22 for long time users which are pretty happy with KDE4 as it is, having stored passwords and heavily customized their desktop?
Kde4 apps will continue to use their existing kde4 kwallet(s)
start from scratch as with Fedora 9 and spend weeks to get a workable desktop again?
kf5 apps essentially are starting from scratch, yes
well, i have no other words than "a total mess" for different apps using a different wallet, some starting from scratch, some not and at the end of the day that means: KDE5 is the same mess as the transition from KDE3 to KDE4 - honestly *a user* don't care about kf4, kf5 and what not, he expects that he can work with his computer as before and the reason why Linux is meaningless on the desktop is that only a few people are idiots like me going through all this mess every few years
Reindl is right and everyone here, regardless of his vested interest and his upcoming vigorous defense of the process knows it.
Its so weird... KDE3 was wonderful to work with it. Ahh but the code is all messy we can't just clean it up and move forward... We need to maintain developer interest so lets lose users and make the transisition from KDE 3 - 4 as painful as possible. Oh cool KDE is now stable lets do it again. bwahahahahahaha.
On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 08:34 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Is there a list of applications that actually make use of the wallet? I ask this since when I've looked in the wallet all I've seen is "Form Data" used by Chrome and my VPN and Wifi passwords. I've not seen any evidence of applications using the wallet for their settings.
I don't use the wallet for anything, despite using KDE rather than Gnome. The whole concept of a wallet/keyring only makes sense if there is *one* of them, independent of the desktop, but currently we have two. Since I use a number of Gnome apps such as Evolution, and other apps including Chrome and Firefox use the Gnome libraries by default, gnome-keyring is the one I use, so of course I'm upset that SDDM doesn't support it (KDM does but its days appear to be numbered). There may be some technical reason why confluence is not possible, but if the reason is mainly political (Not Invented Here syndrome) then we should get over it.
(Whenever I've commented on this issue in the past, someone says there's a project called Ksecrets to unify the two schemes. As far as I can tell this project has made no progress in several years and is functionally dead).
poc
OK, sounds like we're talking about 2 different things here. Which is fine. :)
I'm trying to explain how things work now, and how best to deal with the status quo: how best to deal with dual kde4/kf5 wallets.
You seem to be primarily criticizing the design of having multiple wallets, and describing what your ideal would be: I single wallet used by all apps.
I don't disagree, but I don't think complaints without design and/or code is going to help anyone either.
-- Rex
(Whenever I've commented on this issue in the past, someone says there's a project called Ksecrets to unify the two schemes. As far as I can tell this project has made no progress in several years and is functionally dead).
Well, yes, KF5 is out and stable. It's me not having time for this, as
I'm doing KDE during my spare time, after returning from work. However, I think I could start working on this in about 1 or 2 months, as the situation will change. -Valentin Rusu https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=313216#c5
On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 07:34 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
OK, sounds like we're talking about 2 different things here. Which is fine. :)
I was OT, but IMHO the topic wouldn't be an issue if this problem had been solved by now.
I'm trying to explain how things work now, and how best to deal with the status quo: how best to deal with dual kde4/kf5 wallets.
That's fine of course.
You seem to be primarily criticizing the design of having multiple wallets, and describing what your ideal would be: I single wallet used by all apps.
I don't disagree, but I don't think complaints without design and/or code is going to help anyone either.
Well, at least someone from the project responded, so that's something.
poc
On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 20:18 +0530, Sudhir Khanger wrote:
(Whenever I've commented on this issue in the past, someone says there's a project called Ksecrets to unify the two schemes. As far as I can tell this project has made no progress in several years and is functionally dead).
Well, yes, KF5 is out and stable. It's me not having time for this, as
I'm doing KDE during my spare time, after returning from work. However, I think I could start working on this in about 1 or 2 months, as the situation will change. -Valentin Rusu https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=313216#c5
I've added myself to the CC list.
poc
Rex Dieter wrote:
Reindl Harald wrote:
start from scratch as with Fedora 9 and spend weeks to get a workable desktop again?
kf5 apps essentially are starting from scratch, yes.
That is not an acceptable solution. We really need to fix the migration.
And ideally, we would also patch the KDE 4 KWallet library to talk to the KF5 KWallet, so that we don't keep getting new legacy data to migrate over and over. (The way upstream "solved" the parallel-installability of KWallet is utterly broken.) But working migration is most important for now.
Kevin Kofler
Rex Dieter wrote:
You seem to be primarily criticizing the design of having multiple wallets, and describing what your ideal would be: I single wallet used by all apps.
I don't disagree, but I don't think complaints without design and/or code is going to help anyone either.
I suspect simply replacing kwallet with kwallet5 in the D-Bus interface the kdelibs4 libkwallet talks to would get us a far way there, if not all the way. Of course someone also needs to compare the APIs to see whether any other adjustments are needed. And I guess the migrator will still need some way to talk to the old KWallet.
That said, I don't think I'll have time to look into it any time soon, and we're all busy. :-(
Kevin Kofler
Ed Greshko wrote:
Is there a list of applications that actually make use of the wallet? I ask this since when I've looked in the wallet all I've seen is "Form Data" used by Chrome and my VPN and Wifi passwords.
Konqueror uses it, KMail can use it, …
I've not seen any evidence of applications using the wallet for their settings.
That's because the wallet is NOT for arbitrary settings, but only for passwords and other such security-sensitive data ("secrets").
That said, it would have been "nice" if when config (rc) files were moved to new locations they would have been transitioned.
That is a different issue. Unfortunately, upstream decided to move the settings to a new location and to NOT automatically look in the old one, but require every single application to migrate them manually. Of course, most applications don't bother. That was a very bad decision.
I propose that we patch KConfig (and probably QSettings, too, because some KF5 stuff uses that now) to simply look in the old locations too. We always used to patch KConfig to have a better search patch (i.e., to support both /usr/share/config AND /etc/kde, normally it was one or the other).
Kevin Kofler
-
Ed Greshko -
Eli Wapniarski -
Kevin Kofler -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Reindl Harald -
Rex Dieter -
Sudhir Khanger