Just curious...
How come we went from koffice 2 back down to koffice 1.6 in rawhide today?
The new koffice 2 was getting to look pretty good and I was finally almost at the point of switching from OpenOffice, but definitely not to koffice 1.6.
On 09/30/2009 01:34 PM, Petrus de Calguarium wrote:
Just curious...
How come we went from koffice 2 back down to koffice 1.6 in rawhide today?
The new koffice 2 was getting to look pretty good and I was finally almost at the point of switching from OpenOffice, but definitely not to koffice 1.6.
http://rdieter.livejournal.com/15770.html
-- Rex
Rex Dieter wrote:
Too bad about kde3-less :-(
Until I do make the switch to koffice, that doesn't affect me much, but I *do* use k3b. I noticed that yum didn't update k3b for some reason this morning. I had thought it might be because rpmfusion hadn't yet provided a corresponding freeworld package.
So, if I downgrade k3b in rawhide, is there a freeworld package to allow burning of mp3s?
On Wednesday 30 September 2009 20:44:35 Rex Dieter wrote:
On 09/30/2009 01:34 PM, Petrus de Calguarium wrote:
Just curious...
How come we went from koffice 2 back down to koffice 1.6 in rawhide today?
The new koffice 2 was getting to look pretty good and I was finally almost at the point of switching from OpenOffice, but definitely not to koffice 1.6.
http://rdieter.livejournal.com/15770.html
-- Rex _______________________________________________ fedora-kde mailing list fedora-kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
As long as the k3b for kde4 is available. I've used it to burn media and for this it seems to be stable enough to use (at least for me) for its primary job which is to burn CDs and DVDs
Eli
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
[I]t seems to be stable enough to use (at least for
me) for its primary job
which is to burn CDs and DVDs
I don't understand the downgrade of k3b at all. I have been using k3b44 for some time and have experienced no problems at all.
As for koffice, the old koffice 1 is a waste of time, but koffice 2 did have some major problems, which is why I haven't used it (except for krita, which is getting pretty close to a gimp replacement, were it not for the fact that I have finally managed to learn gimp a bit, despite its ridiculous gui with all of those windows).
Petrus de Calguarium wrote:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
[I]t seems to be stable enough to use (at least for
me) for its primary job
which is to burn CDs and DVDs
I don't understand the downgrade of k3b at all.
k3b's primary developer expressed his opinion that it's not good enough to be shipping/using yet. That opinion carries a lot of weight with me. (The same can be said about koffice as well).
As I commented in the blog post, we'll continue to provide kde4 versions of both k3b and koffice for those who want to use it.
-- Rex
Hi, I've just read email from KOffice developers and seems we did it right - they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
"I would like to restate that we strongly advised against shipping 2.0.x in a stable release of a distribution. If you can't provide package for 1.6, we consider that it is better to have no koffice than 2.0." by Cyrille Berger.
Jaroslav
On Wednesday 30 September 2009 20:34:13 Petrus de Calguarium wrote:
Just curious...
How come we went from koffice 2 back down to koffice 1.6 in rawhide today?
The new koffice 2 was getting to look pretty good and I was finally almost at the point of switching from OpenOffice, but definitely not to koffice 1.6.
fedora-kde mailing list fedora-kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Monday 05 October 2009 10:10:14 Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
Hi, I've just read email from KOffice developers and seems we did it right - they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
"I would like to restate that we strongly advised against shipping 2.0.x in a stable release of a distribution. If you can't provide package for 1.6, we consider that it is better to have no koffice than 2.0." by Cyrille Berger.
Jaroslav
The warning can't be made any stronger. Thanks Jaroslav. Honest and to the point, Support that is expected from OpenSource. I will be removing koffice from my pc soonest.
Eli
On Monday 05 October 2009 09:41:00 Eli Wapniarski wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2009 10:10:14 Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
Hi, I've just read email from KOffice developers and seems we did it right - they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
"I would like to restate that we strongly advised against shipping 2.0.x in a stable release of a distribution. If you can't provide package for 1.6, we consider that it is better to have no koffice than 2.0." by Cyrille Berger.
Jaroslav
The warning can't be made any stronger. Thanks Jaroslav. Honest and to the point, Support that is expected from OpenSource. I will be removing koffice from my pc soonest.
Just for clarification - I've been running the betas for quite some time. I don't think there's any problem with having it installed, and of course bug- reporting is always helpful. It's just that there are some quite severe bugs still to resolve. IOW, if you want to help and have time to, go on using Rex's build, but don't expect it to be productions-system-perfect. It won't be.
As you say, it's fair and honest that the devs have made that statement.
Anne
On Monday 05 October 2009 11:16:04 Anne Wilson wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2009 09:41:00 Eli Wapniarski wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2009 10:10:14 Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
Hi, I've just read email from KOffice developers and seems we did it right - they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
"I would like to restate that we strongly advised against shipping 2.0.x in a stable release of a distribution. If you can't provide package for 1.6, we consider that it is better to have no koffice than 2.0." by Cyrille Berger.
Jaroslav
The warning can't be made any stronger. Thanks Jaroslav. Honest and to the point, Support that is expected from OpenSource. I will be removing koffice from my pc soonest.
Just for clarification - I've been running the betas for quite some time. I don't think there's any problem with having it installed, and of course bug- reporting is always helpful. It's just that there are some quite severe bugs still to resolve. IOW, if you want to help and have time to, go on using Rex's build, but don't expect it to be productions-system-perfect. It won't be.
As you say, it's fair and honest that the devs have made that statement.
Anne
Probably no problem having it installed at all :)
However, if for some reason I have trouble with a document then I won't be tempted to try to use Koffice and maybe make things worse. If I have it off the system it will be a reminder to me (that's just me) that there is a reason that its not on my computer and I shouldn't use it. I'm sure that once KOffice is back in shape we will get an announcment with deserved fanfare.
Eli
Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
I've just read email from KOffice developers and seems we did it right - they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
"I would like to restate that we strongly advised against shipping 2.0.x in a stable release of a distribution. If you can't provide package for 1.6, we consider that it is better to have no koffice than 2.0." by Cyrille Berger.
But what we shipped wasn't 2.0.x, it was 2.1 beta2! In fact, the only reason why we were shipping a beta in the first place was to follow upstream's recommendation of not shipping 2.0.x!
Kevin Kofler
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
Here are my two cents on this issue and are, in general mostly invalid because I am quite frankly unable to use koffice2 on my netbook because it doesn't really 'play nice' on such a small screen.
Freedom, Friends, Features, First.
These are the project's foundations[1] and we should be striving to keep with these goals at all time. Of course, both 'sides' of this debate could take those goals and use them for their arguments.
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
==Features== "Features represents our commitment to excellence. The Fedora community creates many of the technical features that have made Linux powerful, flexible, and usable for a wide spectrum of millions of users, administrators, and developers worldwide. We recognize the status quo is worth changing when the potential gain is to empower additional end-users, or create a more flexible and powerful environment for building new solutions on the free software we provide. We also believe that these changes are best developed in direct concert with the upstream software communities whose work is part of the Fedora distribution. We work with the upstream in cases where we find opportunities for improvement, so all free software users benefit -- regardless of their distribution of choice. Our feature development is always done openly and transparently, and anyone may participate."
===Key points to take away=== *"We recognize the status quo is worth changing when the potential is to empower additional end-users, or create a more flexible and powerful environment" *"We also believe that these changes are best developed in direct concert with upstream software communities"
===Questions to ask=== *Will koffice2 create a more flexible and powerful environment? **Koffice2.1b has a ton of new features and a framework for the future of the application. It's more customisable and flexible already than 1.6 was if not as stable.
*Will shipping koffice1.6 create a more flexible and powerful environment? **We are shipping Qt3 and kdelibs3 if we chose to do this. This means there is less room on our live cd for awesome applications. This makes it harder for users who may not have the ability to install new software (no/slow internet, etc)
*What will be better in the long run for upstream: Keeping the status quo to lower the risk of creating a bad image, or work with them to provide bug reports, fixes and feedback? **This is for the steering committee to decide (even though it already has; i guess I should have written this last week) We were one of the few distros that shipped kde 4.0.2 for better or worse, along with OpenSuSE 11. KDE 4.0.2 was just as rough a cut, arguably, as Koffice2.1b is, if even a little more raw. Personally, I believe that upstream would benefit more in this case with Koffice2.1b, as it would give them, as I asked above, more bug reports, fixes and feedback.
*What will be better for users in the long run? **This is more contentious. On the one hand there is the now: What will help the user out now? Koffice1.6 is more stable and 'better' in this respect -- you won't be halfway through your masters project when a Koffice bug munges the entire thing. On the other hand, us helping out upstream in the long run will be better for users of the software in the future because upstream will be able to improve on the software more. No users == no ambition, but fixes and improvement.
== First == "First represents our commitment to innovation. We are not content to let others do all the heavy lifting on our behalf; we provide the latest in stable and robust, useful, and powerful free software in our Fedora distribution. An examination of the latest Fedora platform at any point in time shows the future direction of the operating system as it is experienced by everyone from the home desktop user to the enterprise business customer. Our rapid release cycle is a major enabling factor in our ability to innovate. We recognize that there is also a place for long-term stability in the Linux ecosystem, and that there are a variety of community-oriented and business-oriented Linux distributions available to serve that need. However, the Fedora Project's goal of advancing free software dictates that the Fedora Project itself pursue a strategy that preserves the forward momentum of our technical, collateral, and community-building progress. Fedora always aims to provide the future, first."
=== Key points to take away === *First represents our commitment to innovation. *we provide the latest in stable and robust, useful, and powerful free software in our Fedora distribution. *An examination of the latest Fedora platform at any point in time shows the future direction of the operating system as it is experienced by everyone from the home desktop user to the enterprise business customer. *We recognize that there is also a place for long-term stability in the Linux ecosystem, and that there are a variety of community-oriented and business-oriented Linux distributions available to serve that need. *need. However, the Fedora Project's goal of advancing free software dictates that the Fedora Project itself pursue a strategy that preserves the forward momentum of our technical, collateral, and community-building progress. Fedora always aims to provide the future, first. (I realize I basically posted that entire paragraph)
=== Questions to ask === *Do we follow First or not?
I realize that it's probably too late to change this decision, and i'm basically just rambling off on a mediawiki formatted waste of your time (sorry, i've been hacking on a wiki all afternoon), but I think that the goals of Fedora sometimes may mean going against what upstream says is correct for a 'stable' distro and will support both users and developers better in the long term.
- -- Ryan Rix (623)-826-0051
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On Tuesday 06 October 2009 04:31:10 Ryan Rix wrote:
Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
they are still strongly against shipping in stable distro.
Here are my two cents on this issue and are, in general mostly invalid because I am quite frankly unable to use koffice2 on my netbook because it doesn't really 'play nice' on such a small screen.
Freedom, Friends, Features, First.
These are the project's foundations[1] and we should be striving to keep with these goals at all time. Of course, both 'sides' of this debate could take those goals and use them for their arguments.
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
==Features== "Features represents our commitment to excellence. The Fedora community creates many of the technical features that have made Linux powerful, flexible, and usable for a wide spectrum of millions of users, administrators, and developers worldwide. We recognize the status quo is worth changing when the potential gain is to empower additional end-users, or create a more flexible and powerful environment for building new solutions on the free software we provide. We also believe that these changes are best developed in direct concert with the upstream software communities whose work is part of the Fedora distribution. We work with the upstream in cases where we find opportunities for improvement, so all free software users benefit -- regardless of their distribution of choice. Our feature development is always done openly and transparently, and anyone may participate."
===Key points to take away=== *"We recognize the status quo is worth changing when the potential is to empower additional end-users, or create a more flexible and powerful environment" *"We also believe that these changes are best developed in direct concert with upstream software communities"
===Questions to ask=== *Will koffice2 create a more flexible and powerful environment? **Koffice2.1b has a ton of new features and a framework for the future of the application. It's more customisable and flexible already than 1.6 was if not as stable.
*Will shipping koffice1.6 create a more flexible and powerful environment? **We are shipping Qt3 and kdelibs3 if we chose to do this. This means there is less room on our live cd for awesome applications. This makes it harder for users who may not have the ability to install new software (no/slow internet, etc)
*What will be better in the long run for upstream: Keeping the status quo to lower the risk of creating a bad image, or work with them to provide bug reports, fixes and feedback? **This is for the steering committee to decide (even though it already has; i guess I should have written this last week) We were one of the few distros that shipped kde 4.0.2 for better or worse, along with OpenSuSE 11. KDE 4.0.2 was just as rough a cut, arguably, as Koffice2.1b is, if even a little more raw. Personally, I believe that upstream would benefit more in this case with Koffice2.1b, as it would give them, as I asked above, more bug reports, fixes and feedback.
*What will be better for users in the long run? **This is more contentious. On the one hand there is the now: What will help the user out now? Koffice1.6 is more stable and 'better' in this respect -- you won't be halfway through your masters project when a Koffice bug munges the entire thing. On the other hand, us helping out upstream in the long run will be better for users of the software in the future because upstream will be able to improve on the software more. No users == no ambition, but fixes and improvement.
== First == "First represents our commitment to innovation. We are not content to let others do all the heavy lifting on our behalf; we provide the latest in stable and robust, useful, and powerful free software in our Fedora distribution. An examination of the latest Fedora platform at any point in time shows the future direction of the operating system as it is experienced by everyone from the home desktop user to the enterprise business customer. Our rapid release cycle is a major enabling factor in our ability to innovate. We recognize that there is also a place for long-term stability in the Linux ecosystem, and that there are a variety of community-oriented and business-oriented Linux distributions available to serve that need. However, the Fedora Project's goal of advancing free software dictates that the Fedora Project itself pursue a strategy that preserves the forward momentum of our technical, collateral, and community-building progress. Fedora always aims to provide the future, first."
=== Key points to take away === *First represents our commitment to innovation. *we provide the latest in stable and robust, useful, and powerful free software in our Fedora distribution. *An examination of the latest Fedora platform at any point in time shows the future direction of the operating system as it is experienced by everyone from the home desktop user to the enterprise business customer. *We recognize that there is also a place for long-term stability in the Linux ecosystem, and that there are a variety of community-oriented and business-oriented Linux distributions available to serve that need. *need. However, the Fedora Project's goal of advancing free software dictates that the Fedora Project itself pursue a strategy that preserves the forward momentum of our technical, collateral, and community-building progress. Fedora always aims to provide the future, first. (I realize I basically posted that entire paragraph)
=== Questions to ask === *Do we follow First or not?
I realize that it's probably too late to change this decision, and i'm basically just rambling off on a mediawiki formatted waste of your time (sorry, i've been hacking on a wiki all afternoon), but I think that the goals of Fedora sometimes may mean going against what upstream says is correct for a 'stable' distro and will support both users and developers better in the long term.
My £0.02 (and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Fefora folk are already thinking this way) - forget KOffice on the live CD. Keep KOffice 1.6 easily available on the repos. Keep KOffice 2 on the unstable repos so that those of us with the interest in helping its development can use it. That should give us the best of both worlds, IMO.
Anne
2009/10/6 Anne Wilson cannewilson@googlemail.com
My £0.02 (and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Fefora folk are already thinking this way) - forget KOffice on the live CD. Keep KOffice 1.6 easily available on the repos. Keep KOffice 2 on the unstable repos so that those of us with the interest in helping its development can use it. That should give us the best of both worlds, IMO.
+1
Sadly, Koffice is not an option for an average user. I don't know if OO.org fits in KDE live-cd, but I think it's worth to try.
IIRC, there is an effort to integrate OO.org and KDE, and Kubuntu will ship it. Is it upstream or just a Kubuntu modification?
Christian González wrote:
I don't know if OO.org fits in KDE live-cd, but I think it's worth to try.
It would drag in OVER 9000 extra packages that we wouldn't need/want otherwise. It'd probably provide about 100mb (that's about what it pulled in when I installed it, but that was with the clipart libraries... not sure on exact specs)
Keep KOffice 1.6 easily available on the repos. Keep KOffice 2 on the unstable repos so that those of us with the interest in helping its development can use it. That should give us the best of both worlds, IMO.
The problem with this is that there are users installing from the live cd to machines without a network connection. This leaves them wondering where the heck the office suite is, giving Fedora-KDE a bad image ("Wtf, doesn't even ship with an office suite?") and moving to Karmic or something that -does- have an office suite in the livecd.
Offtopic link to meme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik
2009/10/7 Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at:
Ryan Rix wrote:
It would drag in OVER 9000 extra packages that we wouldn't need/want otherwise.
That's a vast exaggeration.
This may be some quote or meme, but don't expect people to understand it. Please stick to actual numbers.
Kevin Kofler
fedora-kde mailing list fedora-kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
2009/10/7 Torstein Adolf Winterseth torswin@gmail.com
Offtopic link to meme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik
Jajajaja, now I get it :-). Thank you for the off-topic aclaration.
2009/10/7 Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at:
Ryan Rix wrote:
It would drag in OVER 9000 extra packages that we wouldn't need/want otherwise.
That's a vast exaggeration.
This may be some quote or meme, but don't expect people to understand it. Please stick to actual numbers.
-
Anne Wilson -
Christian González -
Eli Wapniarski -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Kevin Kofler -
Petrus de Calguarium -
Rex Dieter -
Ryan Rix -
Torstein Adolf Winterseth