On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 04:11:34PM +0200, David Nielsen wrote: Our bug reporting page on the wiki is a bit anemic. It could be much friendlier with a step-by-step approach that included screenshots. (No, I'm not concerned with screenshots in the wiki, as I would in formal docs.) Interestingly, the search on "bugs" on the wiki brings up the "Bugs" page which has been used as a redirect to the BugZappers (Triage) team. There's nothing wrong with that, but a "Reporting_bugs" page would break up the search properly and allow users to be shunted to the right information to help them report problems. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug

Karsten 'quaid' Wade escribió: This absolutely is a problem... One that even us, old time Fedora users and would-be-contributors have had (or still have) with the system in one way or another. Personally I have been having a hard time with relatives and friends regarding Fedora 9. It is undeniable that there have been all sorts of problems with this particular release, but the main problem is that most of the people experiencing the problems don't necessarily file bug reports about them, and even when they seem to know how to, some people would simply say that reporting bugs seems to be a complex process (especially the follow up of issues). I had this experience with a friend of mine, we both bought the very same laptop model pretty much at the same time and she *demanded* that I installed Fedora in it (she's fond of Fedora, as when I first introduced her to Fedora and offered her to install it on her computer, she basically told me to install whatever I was using so I could lend a helping hand whenever she needed one). At any rate, I installed Fedora 8 on our computers (x86_64 on mine, i386 on hers, as she makes heavy use of stuff like Flash and other programs through, or that are 32-bit exclusively, which even though can run on x86_64, some times one has to jump through hoops to get them right), but soon after Fedora 9 was released, she downloaded the LiveCD for Fedora 9 and wiped out Fedora 8 from her HDD and started to have all sorts of problems. By that time, a bit before she actually had done that I had downloaded and installed Fedora 9 (again x86_64) on mine and actually got see first hand many of the problems she was experiencing. I offered her to help her get her data onto a backup and reinstall Fedora 8, and so we did. Later I asked her if she reported any of the bugs she found (few of them were substantially different than mine) and she simply replied "No, it seemed too cumbersome". Later that very same day, we started to experience a problem on her machine with Totem and audio CDs (Totem was crashing, bringing up Bug-Buddy), and she told me something I have though of ever since I knew about Bug-Buddy "Why can't Fedora [Bug-Buddy, actually] work with regular e-mail addresses. Every time I try to send a report that this program shows up, I seem to require to be running some sort of mail server". I have thought that very same thing a few times in the past with regards to Bug-Buddy as even if it is very helpful, and you can even save the trace and much of the "report" it generates, people (me included) tend to simply let it slip. It would be great if somehow Bug-Buddy could be tuned to report bugs directly to bugzilla.redhat.com rather than upstream gnome, and integrate it with other programs (KDE programs, even). Another issue people seem to have with bug reporting is "searching". More often than not, when some of my friends or family actually is going to report a bug, they keep saying that they can't find a bug report that matches their criteria, and in one occasion someone said "I was looking for just THAT in bugzilla the other day!" (speaking about a bug we both encounterd), and when I inquired him of the result, he said "I found one report about it, and long discussion about it", and when I asked him if the chimed in to confirm the bug was still there (after apparently a few updates), he simply said "No, it was already reported, anyway". This is to some point the main issue I see with people (regular users) with regards to bug reports and problems they encounter with the distribution. Like some other posters on this thread, I have also people tell me that they have stopped using Fedora due to a problem (curiously enough the most common problem seems to be with regards to printers, at least of those who actually TELL ME, which is, of course the main problem). More often than I'd like to, I have to act as a proxy for bug reports, the problem is that since I do not have the issue itself, and can't reproduce it on my system (due to version or architecture discrepancy), the feedback I can provide in bugzilla (or upstream) is rather limited. I'm aware there is no easy or simple solution for this problem (lack of bug reporting), and that this may involve maybe too much effort to correct over time and through many releases... One possible way (and I really hate myself to bring this up) I have thought of is to have some sort of "interactive demo tour" for new users, as it is present in other operating systems. Through this method it would actually be possible to have more people actually know about many of the features and possibly how to deal with problems (where and how to seek help, reporting bugs, etc). I know there is a "tours" SIG and project within Fedora, and there are also video-tours of many of the highlights and features for each release (I think this started with FC6)... Now, my idea is basically have one of the "screens" of First Boot with a list of videos showcasing that particular release. The videos would obviously be those from the Tours project, and we wouldn't have to worry about proprietary codecs or what not, as they would be already in a free format. However, this imposes a series of prerequisites that may be hard to meet: Have the content at release date (the hardest to do!), be able to somehow internationalize it (could be possible through the use of external subtitle files, trying to avoid speech in the videos, and only relying on the subs to get the message), add the feature to First Boot ideally embedding into the "page" the video player with series of "links" bellow indicating the different features... And this is where things can get difficult, as the content (the videos) cannot be bundled with the LiveCD images (they'd add too much to the images). The way I see it is to have the videos in a package readily available on the DVD images, and downloadable in the LiveCD installer, this should also be completely optional, as not everybody has broad band internet access (and very likely the videos would amount to at least a couple hundred megabytes), so they may be installed at user action and request. I'm aware this would be a very ambitious project and feature to have in Fedora, and maybe not all that worth for the semestral release of the distribution, but is something I have been thinking for Fedora for quite a long time in an effort to improve communication of features to end-users, and serving the alternate purpose of also being an educational tool for users not all that familiar with Linux in general and Fedora in particular.