5:57 p.m.
On the second of Nov. 2006, Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth will be
in Beijing to attend the Ubuntu Edgy EFT release Party. He will give a
talk to encourage more Chinese to use Ubuntu.
If I remember right, RHAT has an office in Beijing. Are those guys
doing anything?
Regards,
--
Leo
9:29 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Fri, 27/10/06, Leo wrote:
On the second of Nov. 2006, Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth will be
in Beijing to attend the Ubuntu Edgy EFT release Party. He will give a
talk to encourage more Chinese to use Ubuntu.
If I remember right, RHAT has an office in Beijing. Are those guys
doing anything?
Since no reply in tree days, I guess people are content with current
situation.
I have to say I admire Mark for his effort to promote Ubuntu, make it
approachable to everybody.
I hope the following still holds:
Technology-wise Fedora is still in the lead.
--
Leo
12:33 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Leo ha scritto:
On Fri, 27/10/06, Leo wrote:
> On the second of Nov. 2006, Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth will be
> in Beijing to attend the Ubuntu Edgy EFT release Party. He will give a
> talk to encourage more Chinese to use Ubuntu.
>
> If I remember right, RHAT has an office in Beijing. Are those guys
> doing anything?
>
>
Since no reply in tree days, I guess people are content with current
situation.
I have to say I admire Mark for his effort to promote Ubuntu, make it
approachable to everybody.
I hope the following still holds:
Technology-wise Fedora is still in the lead.
Hellp Leo,
I want to underline two things: first Fedora is a community based
project and it only sponsored by Red Hat and, second, in many cities and
countries ambassadors organize event such as installation day etc... If
you want to organize an event you can do it and you can request
materials such as t-shirt and dvd (you have to be a marketing or
ambassador member for this) compiling the form.
Ubuntu is different from Fedora and, i think, this would mean that we
have different goals (and similiar ones): this is our, and their,
strenght. We organize, during the year, houndred and houndred of event
everywhere, most of all are local event (e.g. suniversity event) and
_all_ are organized by people that spend their free time talking with
other about Fedora and Open Source.
Thanks for your opinion
Francesco Ugolini
1:05 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Le dimanche 29 octobre 2006 à 19:33 +0100, Francesco Ugolini a écrit :
Leo ha scritto:
> On Fri, 27/10/06, Leo wrote:
>
>
>> On the second of Nov. 2006, Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth will be
>> in Beijing to attend the Ubuntu Edgy EFT release Party. He will give a
>> talk to encourage more Chinese to use Ubuntu.
>>
>> If I remember right, RHAT has an office in Beijing. Are those guys
>> doing anything?
>>
>>
>
> Since no reply in tree days, I guess people are content with current
> situation.
>
> I have to say I admire Mark for his effort to promote Ubuntu, make it
> approachable to everybody.
>
> I hope the following still holds:
>
> Technology-wise Fedora is still in the lead.
>
>
Hellp Leo,
I want to underline two things: first Fedora is a community based
project and it only sponsored by Red Hat and, second, in many cities and
countries ambassadors organize event such as installation day etc... If
you want to organize an event you can do it and you can request
materials such as t-shirt and dvd (you have to be a marketing or
ambassador member for this) compiling the form.
Don't dream that much about having things from the project as easily as
it seems to be told here.
We made an install party yesterday, in Paris, and requested schwags for
it a month or two before, and received nothing, not even any answer
telling us "sorry, we can't". Mandriva, a company which has GREATER
financial difficulties that RH in france, is making much more buzz and
that less difficulties to give things to people. I say "things" and not
"goodies" as they gave us (for free!) a router for an install party in
Lille.
About DVDs, when I asked for them, I was asked to make them on my own so
as to be reimbursed. I send everything to famsco again and had NO answer
AGAIN.
What's next ? And we have, now, to rely on William Hoffman inside RH
France to push everything forward. That is not acceptable, at all. I
really hope and really count on Thomas Tchung to change things inside
famsco.
Just my 2 cents ....
3:31 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On 10/29/06, Thomas Canniot <thomas.canniot(a)laposte.net> wrote:
Don't dream that much about having things from the project as
easily as
it seems to be told here.
We made an install party yesterday, in Paris, and requested schwags for
it a month or two before, and received nothing, not even any answer
telling us "sorry, we can't". Mandriva, a company which has GREATER
financial difficulties that RH in france, is making much more buzz and
that less difficulties to give things to people. I say "things" and not
"goodies" as they gave us (for free!) a router for an install party in
Lille.
About DVDs, when I asked for them, I was asked to make them on my own so
as to be reimbursed. I send everything to famsco again and had NO answer
AGAIN.
What's next ? And we have, now, to rely on William Hoffman inside RH
France to push everything forward. That is not acceptable, at all. I
really hope and really count on Thomas Tchung to change things inside
famsco.
Just my 2 cents ....
Trust me. Things will change for better!
Regards,
--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung
6:51 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Sun, 29/10/06, Thomas Canniot wrote:
> Hellp Leo,
>
> I want to underline two things: first Fedora is a community based
> project and it only sponsored by Red Hat and, second, in many cities and
> countries ambassadors organize event such as installation day etc... If
> you want to organize an event you can do it and you can request
> materials such as t-shirt and dvd (you have to be a marketing or
> ambassador member for this) compiling the form.
>
Don't dream that much about having things from the project as easily as
it seems to be told here.
We made an install party yesterday, in Paris, and requested schwags for
it a month or two before, and received nothing, not even any answer
telling us "sorry, we can't". Mandriva, a company which has GREATER
financial difficulties that RH in france, is making much more buzz and
that less difficulties to give things to people. I say "things" and not
"goodies" as they gave us (for free!) a router for an install party in
Lille.
About DVDs, when I asked for them, I was asked to make them on my own so
as to be reimbursed. I send everything to famsco again and had NO answer
AGAIN.
Feel sorry to hear this kind of stories.
There are other frustrations.
Speaking of installation, if I want to help someone install GNU/Linux,
I have much more confidence to go with Ubuntu than Fedora. For one
thing with Fedora I need 5 CDs (dont tell me about DVD it is not
available on some areas), the chance of getting a corrupted CD is much
much bigger. Secondly the installation has not been tested thoroughly
i.e. it failed in a lot of machines. For my own desktop, I actually
have to do a minimal FC5 install and then upgrade to FC6. It is very
dangerous to frustrate newcomers in their first try. They will never
come back to Fedora and try their every effort to persuade others to
go away. I feel very sorry for a friend in Philippines, I recommend
him to try FC. He managed to download the 5CDs with 60k/s to find out
it didn't install for him.
What's next ? And we have, now, to rely on William Hoffman inside
RH
France to push everything forward. That is not acceptable, at all. I
really hope and really count on Thomas Tchung to change things inside
famsco.
Just my 2 cents ....
--
Leo
7:54 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On 10/29/06, Leo <sdl.web(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of installation, if I want to help someone install
GNU/Linux,
I have much more confidence to go with Ubuntu than Fedora. For one
thing with Fedora I need 5 CDs (dont tell me about DVD it is not
available on some areas), the chance of getting a corrupted CD is much
much bigger. Secondly the installation has not been tested thoroughly
i.e. it failed in a lot of machines. For my own desktop, I actually
have to do a minimal FC5 install and then upgrade to FC6. It is very
dangerous to frustrate newcomers in their first try. They will never
come back to Fedora and try their every effort to persuade others to
go away. I feel very sorry for a friend in Philippines, I recommend
him to try FC. He managed to download the 5CDs with 60k/s to find out
it didn't install for him.
Leo,
Please have him to contact me direct if he can't afford to buy from
local or online vendors.
We'll accommodate him from Fedora Free Media Program[1].
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia
Regards,
--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung
2:10 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Mon, 30/10/06, Thomas Chung wrote:
Leo,
Please have him to contact me direct if he can't afford to buy from
local or online vendors.
We'll accommodate him from Fedora Free Media Program[1].
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia
Regards,
--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung
That will be very nice. His computer is completely unusable at the
moment. He was installing Fedora and formatted all the partitions
since he really want to get rid of M$. I have sent his address to you
in another email.
--
Leo
12:07 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
<snipped>
Speaking of installation, if I want to help someone install
GNU/Linux, I have much more confidence to go with Ubuntu than
Fedora. For one thing with Fedora I need 5 CDs (dont tell me
about DVD it is not available on some areas), the chance of
getting a corrupted CD is much much bigger. Secondly the
installation has not been tested thoroughly i.e. it failed in
a lot of machines. For my own desktop, I actually have to do
a minimal FC5 install and then upgrade to FC6. It is very
dangerous to frustrate newcomers in their first try. They
will never come back to Fedora and try their every effort to
persuade others to go away. I feel very sorry for a friend in
Philippines, I recommend him to try FC. He managed to
download the 5CDs with 60k/s to find out it didn't install for him.
<snipped>
Leo, there's a reason why FC comes in all 5 CDs and one of them is to help
users avoid downloading, let's say, developer tools should they need it.
Ubuntu, if you will check, mostly you will have to do more downloads if you
want something more (like developer tools) and it's not really advisable for
a country like the Philippines where connection speed is terrible to keep on
downloading in order to get your install complete. Should your friend
require FC6 CDs or DVDs we can provide him a copy professional-made by the
FedoraProject and already checked for errors (if any). Please goto
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia to request for it.
I can also personally hand-over the CDs to your friend if he lives near
Manila (and if he can wait) as I will be having my yearly vacation May 2007.
By the way, I'm the Fedora Ambassador for the Philippines
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RinoMardo) ;-)
2:34 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Mon, 30/10/06, Rino Mardo wrote:
Leo, there's a reason why FC comes in all 5 CDs and one of them
is to help
users avoid downloading, let's say, developer tools should they need it.
Ubuntu, if you will check, mostly you will have to do more downloads if you
want something more (like developer tools) and it's not really advisable for
a country like the Philippines where connection speed is terrible to keep on
downloading in order to get your install complete. Should your friend
require FC6 CDs or DVDs we can provide him a copy professional-made by the
FedoraProject and already checked for errors (if any). Please goto
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia to request for it.
If we assume Fedora is for Desktop users, I think reducing the number
of CDs is a must. Make it within 2 CDs would be nice. At least there
should be an install option that does not require all 5 CDs.
I can also personally hand-over the CDs to your friend if he lives
near
Manila (and if he can wait) as I will be having my yearly vacation May 2007.
By the way, I'm the Fedora Ambassador for the Philippines
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RinoMardo) ;-)
Thanks for your offer. I'm thinking of bring his computer back in a
month as he chose to format all partitions and didn't complete the
install due to some file errors.
--
Leo
3:13 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Leo wrote:
If we assume Fedora is for Desktop users, I think reducing the
number
of CDs is a must. Make it within 2 CDs would be nice. At least there
should be an install option that does not require all 5 CDs.
Not all installation types require 5 CDs.
5 CDs comprises the whole of the Fedora Core distribution.
Sounds plenty conservative to me, compared to Mandriva's 10 CD set or
something.
What you're wanting is similar to a barebones Windows XP install that
fits in 550MB on once CD.
Why don't you just move on and forget about Linux rather than spread
misinformation that installihng Fedora Core
requires 5 CDs?
4:48 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Mon, 30/10/06, Jasper Hartline wrote:
Leo wrote:
> If we assume Fedora is for Desktop users, I think reducing the number
> of CDs is a must. Make it within 2 CDs would be nice. At least there
> should be an install option that does not require all 5 CDs.
>
Not all installation types require 5 CDs.
5 CDs comprises the whole of the Fedora Core distribution.
Sounds plenty conservative to me, compared to Mandriva's 10 CD set or
something.
Mandriva is 4CD set. You might mean Debian, well they include >1,6000
packages.
What you're wanting is similar to a barebones Windows XP install that
fits in 550MB on once CD.
You think 2CDs installation is barebone ...
Why don't you just move on and forget about Linux rather than
spread
misinformation that installihng Fedora Core
requires 5 CDs?
who is actually spreading misinformation. Even with a minimal
selection of packages, Anaconda will warn users to have 5CD at hand.
If we indicate in the release notes that the default package selection
only requires the first two CDs. I think that will save the majority
of the users a lot of trouble.
--
Leo
2:25 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Which Distro? Was - Ubuntu Release Party
Leo wrote:
You think 2CDs installation is barebone ...
Ok, so this isn't quite a Fedora Friendly but here goes...
As most of you know, I work with a lot of GNU/Linux developers and their
communities.
As such, I'm always getting asked what distro would be the best for
someone.
There are so many flavors, it's silly to think that one distro would fit
every situation. And you may have to get use to the fact that Fedora
may not be the right fit every time. As complete as Fedora is, it can't
be everything for everyone.
As a Fedora Ambassador, it's expected that you'll find a fedora
solution. But if it is going to come down to giving someone a Fedora
Solution that doesn't quite work or giving them a first time that has
them singing in the GNU/Linux Choior, I would choose another distro.
It's like my 3 year old son. Sometimes he just needs a nap. There are
times when he asks to go to his room to lay down. Other days he is so
tired and cranky, the last resort is tossing a pillow on the floor and
turning on a DVD for him to watch. Once he is sleeping I can move him
to his bed.
Just as once someone is using linux it won't be as hard to move them
over to Fedora. You just need to let things work at their own pace.
I'm a broken record when I say that paying forward has it's rewards.
The number one goal is to give someone a positive feeling about Fedora
and Linux.
If someone is getting hooked on GNU/Linux from a Fedora Ambassador,
that's going to come back to us. (Stuff like that gets around)
My most often advised distros based on their core strength...
One disc install for a new user, *PCLinuxOS*
For a one-disc install for someone who only uses a computer for a few
things like email, the web (and can barely do that) *SymphonyOS*
For Games, *Wolvix Games Edition* or the *SuperGamer*
For Education, *Freeduc*, or *Edubuntu*
For a server on Live CD - *SLAMPP* (think a full interactive web
presentation on a live CD you could send to business clients, bandwidth
not being an issue so you can really knock their socks off with graphics
and sound)
For Live Media applications - *Dyne:Bolic* (hascii cam is way cool)
for Forensic exam of a computer system - *Helix*
Heck, there's even Beer-nix and a distro out there made just for finding
porn online. (It's probably ok that Fedora isn't known for that - lol)
4:49 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Leo wrote:
who is actually spreading misinformation. Even with a minimal
selection of packages, Anaconda will warn users to have 5CD at hand.
Dependant upon the package selection you choose Anaconda will state
which CDs you need.
With a minimal selection of packages, Fedora Core requires CDs 1 and 2,
yes you are spreading
misinformation.
If we indicate in the release notes that the default package
selection
only requires the first two CDs. I think that will save the majority
of the users a lot of trouble.
To be able to download and install for free, an open source operating
system
that provides some of the most up to date sofware available for Linux
coming from a company who
contributes to the OSS community a great deal, I don't neccessarily see
installing Fedora Core
as any bit of "trouble".
If users are needing to save grief in installing software that causes
"trouble" they need to stop using
that software. There are just too many people who think this way as you
describe and personally, it's sickening to me.
J. Hartline
3:43 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On 10/30/06, Jasper Hartline <jasperhartline(a)adelphia.net> wrote:
Leo wrote:
> who is actually spreading misinformation. Even with a minimal
> selection of packages, Anaconda will warn users to have 5CD at hand.
>
>
Dependant upon the package selection you choose Anaconda will state
which CDs you need.
With a minimal selection of packages, Fedora Core requires CDs 1 and 2,
This probably should be better documented. I don'[t think many users
realize that they could just boot the first CD, choose their
installation options and then download only the other CDs that they
need.
Regards,
--
Michel Salim
Don't worry about avoiding temptation -- as you grow older, it starts
avoiding you.
-- The Old Farmer's Almanac
7:42 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Michel Salim wrote:
On 10/30/06, Jasper Hartline <jasperhartline(a)adelphia.net>
wrote:
> Leo wrote:
> > who is actually spreading misinformation. Even with a minimal
> > selection of packages, Anaconda will warn users to have 5CD at hand.
> >
> >
> Dependant upon the package selection you choose Anaconda will state
> which CDs you need.
> With a minimal selection of packages, Fedora Core requires CDs 1 and 2,
This probably should be better documented. I don'[t think many users
realize that they could just boot the first CD, choose their
installation options and then download only the other CDs that they
need.
It's already well documented like say the installation guide. End users
dont read much.
Rahul
3:27 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Michel Salim wrote:
> This probably should be better documented. I don'[t think many users
> realize that they could just boot the first CD, choose their
> installation options and then download only the other CDs that they
> need.
It's already well documented like say the installation guide. End users
dont read much.
Rahul
Every time I see a mention of RTFM I just cringe.
Michael brings up a good point about booting the first disc. Even as an
ambassador he finds the info hard to come by so why would you expect the
average user to home in on it?
You guys are always focused on Ubuntu because, I can only assume, you've
got user envy.
But with "end users don't read much" it's no wonder there aren't as
many
Fedora users.
And if you want to take an example from a distro that's gowing at a pace
that will pass Fedora on by, you should be looking at the reason why
PClinuxOS is now in the top 10 at DistroWatch.com. (a few months ago it
was 10, now it's 6. What does that tell you?)
Is because of their community.
New users are greeted with open arms. Questions that have been answered
hundreds of times continue to be answered as if it was the first time.
If you need an example, check out
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=10099.0
New user question. The specific answer. Followed by where to find more
information. Then success for the user.
My best advice for Michael and Rahul... Tip of the week! Not only would
you be helping novice users, but you'd get people into the documentation
to do a little more learning on their own.
I'm sure a tip of the week would be a welcome addition to Fedora Weekly
News.
10:10 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Il giorno 11/nov/06, alle ore 10:27, Karlie Robinson ha scritto:
My best advice for Michael and Rahul... Tip of the week! Not only
would you be helping novice users, but you'd get people into the
documentation to do a little more learning on their own.
I'm sure a tip of the week would be a welcome addition to Fedora
Weekly News.
+1 but here we should make a huge list of tips so Thomas (IIRC) which
manages the Weekly News has only to do a copy & paste.
Or maybe on the official wiki [1] we should build a page like this one:
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Fedora_fc5
or this other:
http://www.fedorafaq.org/
so we can provide up to date "guides".
But then again this makes everything go under the not too quick
procedure of getting writing access to the FedoraProject wiki.
[1] also this is a viable way if the wiki is hosted in countries
different from US where giving some tips to obtain mp3 o libdvdcss is
potentially a search for (legal) trouble. To my mind comes that a
discussion similar to this was made on opensuse mailing list one year
ago when the project had started and they had to define what was
"novell" and what was "community .....
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://www.koolinus.net
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
6:31 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:10 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 11/nov/06, alle ore 10:27, Karlie Robinson ha scritto:
> My best advice for Michael and Rahul... Tip of the week! Not only
> would you be helping novice users, but you'd get people into the
> documentation to do a little more learning on their own.
>
>
> I'm sure a tip of the week would be a welcome addition to Fedora
> Weekly News.
One of the things I've noticed as a comparison is not so much the
explaining of 'noob' questions or anything like that. Its the fact that
we have to build/improve the community.
One of the best overall communities distro's that 'I' have seen is the
ubuntu one. I'm not saying it is the best I'm saying its the best I've
seen. I'm also not sure how to recreate something like that. The
support, the help, the innovation that gets created. The contribution
that goes back.
For example:
There is a modified gnome menu which you can download and install as a
deb. There is a bittorrent that you can download. The help.ubuntu.com
page which is on their wiki. The howto's which are everywhere. The
supporting communities such as the ubuntuguide etc.... The steps they
are making to sort out user problems. A simple backup program.
automounting of fat32 or ntfs. Things like that or as soon as you mount
a harddrive it shows the link on your desktop.
All of those 'other' things help make the distro look better. I love
fedora as a distro and have done for awhile. One of my biggest gripes
isn't with the distro at all its with the community helping to make the
overall community better. Its a catch 22 which I have no way of solving
or figuring out how to improve.
Now people can say well I can help contribute. Yes I can I previously
started to create a fedora wiki full of howto's until I found
fedorasolved.org. Which is currently getting rebuilt. That is where
I'm currently contributing to help make it a haven of howto's. To help
people do the stuff that they want to do. How to install and run
freenx. How to use xgl with nvidia drivers. How to install
movieplayer.
The doc's project will be better for it because I believe the non
propietary howto's will be sent back to the fedora wiki.
I'm open to suggestions on what we can do to help. I personally don't
think redhat should get involved in it because I feel that if the
community see redhat getting involved they don't contribute. They don't
seem to understand that a lot of the supporting stuff while the staff at
redhat contribute there are also people who don't work at redhat that
contribute. I think that perception needs to be rectified.
The greatest example I've seen of this perception was when a guy on a
mailing list turned around and said that redhat should put someone in
the mailing list to monitor what people were complaining about. He
expected Rahul to do that. Well for me I was stunned. I understood his
comment to mean that redhat should do everything and the community
should do nothing. I know not everyone see's it that way but I wonder
how many people see it that way. It seems to be an us and them. It
seems to be that don't worry Redhat will do everything or we can't
contribute because Redhat won't allow it. Its very apathetic at times
which is annoying but understandable.
As always I may be way off or I may be interpreting stuff the wrong way
in that case please correct it.
Regards,
Marc
11:03 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Karlie Robinson wrote:
Every time I see a mention of RTFM I just cringe.
It wasnt. He said it should be documented. I pointed out it already was.
Thats very different from "RTFM".
Michael brings up a good point about booting the first disc. Even as an
ambassador he finds the info hard to come by so why would you expect the
average user to home in on it?
You guys are always focused on Ubuntu because, I can only assume, you've
got user envy.
Who is "you guys" here?
But with "end users don't read much" it's no wonder
there aren't as many
Fedora users.
Stating a fact wouldnt drive away users. I contribute to documentation
and number of times in fedoraforum and fedora-list that I had to point
out to my own documentation is several hundreds for every release. If
anybody working in documentation believes that end users actually read
all of the documentation, do let me know.
My best advice for Michael and Rahul... Tip of the week! Not only would
you be helping novice users, but you'd get people into the documentation
to do a little more learning on their own.
I'm sure a tip of the week would be a welcome addition to Fedora Weekly
News.
It had one before. I guess we havent had many tips coming in these days.
I am sure contributors to that section is welcome.
Rahul
2:13 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
I'm going to bulk together my answers
~K
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Thats very different from "RTFM".
End users don't read much = RTFM
It's an attitude that's not helpful to users who may have troubles
regardless of how much they've read.
Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
One of the things I've noticed as a comparison is not so much
the
explaining of 'noob' questions or anything like that. Its the fact that
we have to build/improve the community.
[snip]
I'm also not sure how to recreate something like that. The
support, the help, the innovation that gets created. The contribution
that goes back.
Building a community is about an attitude.
It's not about being the Fedora Help desk, it's more about being the
fedora Welcome wagon and showing hospitality.
Imagine if there was a 4th icon on the desktop by default. Call it
Help, or Getting Started that opened up a directory with options for IRC
help, Manual pages, Forum Help etc.
Thinking that just because some users figured it out by themselves
doesn't mean that everyone can do it.
Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
I do think that a lot of people have the impression that it's
easier to
get involved with other linux communities than it is to get involved
with our community. That said, I think we have an excellent community
once you get to know it.
I'm a Fedora Ambassador and consider myself a reasonably intelligent
woman. But doing the CLA kicked my butt. It came down to the fact that
my webmail was funky, but over and over and over the best advie I could
get was along the lines of "gee I don't know, have you read [link to the
wiki]?"
To this day, *I DO NOT USE FEDORA* on my Linux box simply because I do
not want to deal with the community should I have questions.
I work hard getting Free Media Discs out, but when it comes to most of
what goes on with the marketing and ambassador lists/IRC chats and
meetings, I'm turned off.
From my point of view, if this is what happens with the ambassadors who
are the public face of Fedora, I can only imagine how I'd be recieved as
a regular ole user with a question.
~Karlie
7:31 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Karlie Robinson wrote:
End users don't read much = RTFM
Sorry. Its not. It wasnt what I meant anyway.
It's an attitude that's not helpful to users who may have troubles
regardless of how much they've read.
For a analogy, lets say someone says that feature X should exist. Would
pointing to him or her that such a feature already exists be RTFM? I
dont think so. Do you find it hard to believe that users dont actually
read much documentation? Perhaps a few good looks at usability studies
or talking to people who work on documentation would convince you of that.
Imagine if there was a 4th icon on the desktop by default. Call it
>
Help, or Getting Started that opened up a directory with options for
IRC help, Manual pages, Forum Help etc
Do you believe that this is going to be more discoverable than the menu
entry for help which provides exactly that?
To this day, *I DO NOT USE FEDORA* on my Linux box simply because I
do > not want to deal with the community should I have questions.
Seems to be based on a incorrect assumption. Fedora questions on
fedora-list and fedoraforums are usually answered pretty well. This list
is for contributors.
Rahul
2:14 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 06:03, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
I guess we havent had many tips coming in these days. I am sure
contributors to that section is welcome.
I beg your and other's pardon.
Won't be then more helpful to have "tips" coming if a specific
section of the wiki undergoes a simplified access procedure ?
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
2:18 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 06:03, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
> I guess we havent had many tips coming in these days. I am sure
> contributors to that section is welcome.
I beg your and other's pardon.
Won't be then more helpful to have "tips" coming if a specific section
of the wiki undergoes a simplified access procedure ?
Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly News
wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of weekly news
doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the editor. How do you
want to simplify access to that?
Rahul
2:38 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects
Wiki which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything
Fedora, even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
resources.
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
6:24 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
> Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
> News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
> weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
> editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects Wiki
which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
resources.
This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea. This
was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
could pull from here into "tip of the day"
That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
kbase.redhat.com site...
Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
particular. Can we revive this?
Sam
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
--
Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE
Global Support Services
6:33 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
> As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our
projects Wiki
> which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
> even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
> resources.
It would require changes to the infrastructure and integrate the account
systems into the wiki. Thats a lot of work and is being tracked at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2. If you are
interested, talk to the infrastructure team about that.
This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea.
This
was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
could pull from here into "tip of the day"
That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
kbase.redhat.com site...
Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
particular. Can we revive this?
PHP is a no go in fedoraproject.org. If you want to stick with clear, we
can perhaps talk about getting it installed in fedoranews.org instead.
If you want to stick with fedoraproject.org, we need to find a good Free
software solution to it, preferably python based. Maybe Plone has a add on.
Rahul
4:41 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 07:24 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
> Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
>
> > Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
> > News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
> > weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
> > editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
>
>
>
>
> As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects Wiki
> which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
> even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
> resources.
>
This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea. This
was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
could pull from here into "tip of the day"
That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
kbase.redhat.com site...
Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
particular. Can we revive this?
I put up a workable tip-a-day mechanism over 6 months ago. You can see
a mockup at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/TipTest where I
directed people to test and comment on it. It can be done entirely with
a simple wiki function, and just needs to be integrated into the front
page. That's not a kbase substitute, but we don't need a whole kbase to
get this started.
IIRC, I held off at Patrick's request in favor of some front page
revamping. That revamping never really happened, and this got
back-burnered. I'm happy to put it on the front page if people would
just look at the darn test and comment. Even if you say it's not good
enough for a band-aid fix, no problem.
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board
Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
5:50 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 17:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 07:24 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
> > Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
> >
> > > Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
> > > News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
> > > weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
> > > editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects Wiki
> > which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
> > even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
> > resources.
> >
>
> This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea. This
> was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
> could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
> could pull from here into "tip of the day"
>
> That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
> kbase.redhat.com site...
>
> Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
> particular. Can we revive this?
I put up a workable tip-a-day mechanism over 6 months ago. You can see
a mockup at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/TipTest where I
directed people to test and comment on it. It can be done entirely with
a simple wiki function, and just needs to be integrated into the front
page. That's not a kbase substitute, but we don't need a whole kbase to
get this started.
IIRC, I held off at Patrick's request in favor of some front page
revamping. That revamping never really happened, and this got
back-burnered. I'm happy to put it on the front page if people would
just look at the darn test and comment. Even if you say it's not good
enough for a band-aid fix, no problem.
I looked at it a ways back and I think it's great. Actually I put it in
another mock-up with a little different css usage:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SamFolkWilliams/draftMainSandbox
I think we should just do this.
Sam
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
--
Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE
Global Support Services
7:09 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 18:50 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 17:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 07:24 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
> > > Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
> > > > News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
> > > > weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
> > > > editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects
Wiki
> > > which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
> > > even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
> > > resources.
> > >
> >
> > This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea. This
> > was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
> > could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
> > could pull from here into "tip of the day"
> >
> > That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
> > kbase.redhat.com site...
> >
> > Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
> > particular. Can we revive this?
>
> I put up a workable tip-a-day mechanism over 6 months ago. You can see
> a mockup at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/TipTest where I
> directed people to test and comment on it. It can be done entirely with
> a simple wiki function, and just needs to be integrated into the front
> page. That's not a kbase substitute, but we don't need a whole kbase to
> get this started.
>
> IIRC, I held off at Patrick's request in favor of some front page
> revamping. That revamping never really happened, and this got
> back-burnered. I'm happy to put it on the front page if people would
> just look at the darn test and comment. Even if you say it's not good
> enough for a band-aid fix, no problem.
>
I looked at it a ways back and I think it's great. Actually I put it in
another mock-up with a little different css usage:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SamFolkWilliams/draftMainSandbox
I think we should just do this.
That looks quite good :)
7:11 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 18:50 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 17:41 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 07:24 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:38 +0100, Nicola Losito wrote:
> > > Il giorno 12/nov/06, alle ore 09:18, Rahul Sundaram ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the Fedora Weekly
> > > > News wiki or the Fedora Project wiki? A weekly tips section of
> > > > weekly news doesnt require wiki access and you can just email the
> > > > editor. How do you want to simplify access to that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As I've said in a previous mail i was thinking about our projects
Wiki
> > > which - for me - must be the primary resource for anything Fedora,
> > > even if at first stages it will work as a bookmark to other's
> > > resources.
> > >
> >
> > This would be a good time for a plug to the knowledge base idea. This
> > was recently raised on the docs list and I am a strong advocate. A kbase
> > could allow for easier submission of targeted tips and how-tos. Then we
> > could pull from here into "tip of the day"
> >
> > That's how Red Hat magazine gets it's tips section - from the
> > kbase.redhat.com site...
> >
> > Rahul - I know you discussed this in the past in regards to Klear in
> > particular. Can we revive this?
>
> I put up a workable tip-a-day mechanism over 6 months ago. You can see
> a mockup at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/TipTest where I
> directed people to test and comment on it. It can be done entirely with
> a simple wiki function, and just needs to be integrated into the front
> page. That's not a kbase substitute, but we don't need a whole kbase to
> get this started.
>
> IIRC, I held off at Patrick's request in favor of some front page
> revamping. That revamping never really happened, and this got
> back-burnered. I'm happy to put it on the front page if people would
> just look at the darn test and comment. Even if you say it's not good
> enough for a band-aid fix, no problem.
>
I looked at it a ways back and I think it's great. Actually I put it in
another mock-up with a little different css usage:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SamFolkWilliams/draftMainSandbox
I think we should just do this.
Sorry for the double post. I have to say after looking at both Paul's
version have the text in the right place I say this because that was the
first place I looked to the screenshot. Colours (Colors) attract people
to look there so placing the next there is a great idea.
Only one complaint Paul and it might be my screen resolution but the
text overlapped the bottom line so there was writing over the bottom
line under the screenshot.
I like it though :)
Regards,
Marc
6:40 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Community - Was - Ubuntu Release Party...
Karlie - I think you have some excellent points. Comments in-line...
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 09:27 +0000, Karlie Robinson wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Michel Salim wrote:
>> This probably should be better documented. I don'[t think many users
>> realize that they could just boot the first CD, choose their
>> installation options and then download only the other CDs that they
>> need.
>
>
> It's already well documented like say the installation guide. End users
> dont read much.
>
> Rahul
>
Every time I see a mention of RTFM I just cringe.
Michael brings up a good point about booting the first disc. Even as an
ambassador he finds the info hard to come by so why would you expect the
average user to home in on it?
I don't think Rahul was trying to say RTFM, but I can see how the
comment came across that way. There is no arguing this fact - most
people don't know about this and many other great features. It's not
their fault. And we can't just say, "It's in the doc if they would only
read it". Rahul also points out that he routinely answers questions on
the forums and mailing lists and points to the docs, which is exactly
what we should/can be doing. But there should be a way to make some
things more obvious to the user. A "Tip of the day" is a nice idea and
it has been discussed many times in the past. Personally, I'd like to
see this integrated into the Gnome environment rather than just on the
wiki.
You guys are always focused on Ubuntu because, I can only assume,
you've
got user envy.
I don't know if I would call it user envy. I think Ubuntu is a great
example of an outstanding Linux community. Many of us Fedora users have
interacted with Ubuntu people. I think references to the Ubuntu
community are only natural given that it's an important part of the
linux world at large. In the fedora project we tried hard to never say
bad things about any other distro or their community. I hope we can all
maintain that civility. By the way, there are *a lot* of Fedora users
out there too :)
But with "end users don't read much" it's no wonder
there aren't as many
Fedora users.
I don't think Rahul meant this to be directed at a user nor was it in
response to a user query. Other comments above.
And if you want to take an example from a distro that's gowing at
a pace
that will pass Fedora on by, you should be looking at the reason why
PClinuxOS is now in the top 10 at DistroWatch.com. (a few months ago it
was 10, now it's 6. What does that tell you?)
Again - it's not a competition. I take your point, though.
Is because of their community.
New users are greeted with open arms. Questions that have been answered
hundreds of times continue to be answered as if it was the first time.
If you need an example, check out
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=10099.0
New user question. The specific answer. Followed by where to find more
information. Then success for the user.
I do think we can make it easier for new users to get involved with
Fedora. I have read the ubuntu lists - more so at the beginning of
Ubuntu. And I was very impressed with the openness and welcoming
attitudes of those who replied. I definitely think we can learn
something from these examples. No one thing is going to "fix" this. But
I do think that a lot of people have the impression that it's easier to
get involved with other linux communities than it is to get involved
with our community. That said, I think we have an excellent community
once you get to know it.
My best advice for Michael and Rahul... Tip of the week! Not only
would
you be helping novice users, but you'd get people into the documentation
to do a little more learning on their own.
I love this idea - more comments in a separate email.
I'm sure a tip of the week would be a welcome addition to Fedora
Weekly
News.
--
Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE
Global Support Services
4:29 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Il giorno 30/ott/06, alle ore 10:13, Jasper Hartline ha scritto:
Not all installation types require 5 CDs.
5 CDs comprises the whole of the Fedora Core distribution.
Sounds plenty conservative to me, compared to Mandriva's 10 CD set
or something.
[CUT]
Why don't you just move on and forget about Linux rather than
spread misinformation that installihng Fedora Core
requires 5 CDs?
Now you're spreading misinformation :-)
10 CD is more like to be the 12CD set of ENTIRE Debian distribution.
Mandriva goes to 6 or 7 only for PowerPacks (the ones you can buy in
shops). The Free download edition is composed by 3 cds.
And in those extra packages you get mp3, proprietary videocards
driver, RealPlayer, Opera, and drivers for some modems (56k / ISDN /
USB ones).
Just for the sake of knowledge ...
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
4:35 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
Il giorno 30/ott/06, alle ore 09:34, Leo ha scritto:
If we assume Fedora is for Desktop users, I think reducing the
number
of CDs is a must. Make it within 2 CDs would be nice. At least there
should be an install option that does not require all 5 CDs.
Reading some old threads here will make you become more acknoledged
that Fedora in *not* FOR desktop use but ALSO for it.
Provided you have the knowledge, the time and the will to tailor it
to your needs and preferences.
And in fact i have Fedora in my highest raccomendation for "open"
enviroments where one has to cover different profile of computer
usage, since you can customize it and nothing breaks .... so quite
the opposite of what happens to some "human" distribution.
But if you *need* a pure desktop, an average Joe kind of use with
some unsayable proprietary software/technology to use then the Fedora
experience is .... sometimes frustrating.
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
5:22 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Ubuntu Release Party in Beijing, what about Fedora?
On Sun, 29/10/06, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
>
> Since no reply in tree days, I guess people are content with current
> situation.
>
> I have to say I admire Mark for his effort to promote Ubuntu, make it
> approachable to everybody.
>
> I hope the following still holds:
>
> Technology-wise Fedora is still in the lead.
>
>
Hellp Leo,
I want to underline two things: first Fedora is a community based
project and it only sponsored by Red Hat and, second, in many cities
and countries ambassadors organize event such as installation day
etc... If you want to organize an event you can do it and you can
request materials such as t-shirt and dvd (you have to be a marketing
or ambassador member for this) compiling the form.
From the Ubuntu website:
,----
| Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available
| with both community and professional support. It is developed by a
| large *community* and we invite you to participate too!
`----
So far almost every freely available GNU/Linux is a community based
project.
Ubuntu is different from Fedora and, i think, this would mean that
we
have different goals (and similiar ones): this is our, and their,
strenght. We organize, during the year, houndred and houndred of event
everywhere, most of all are local event (e.g. suniversity event) and
_all_ are organized by people that spend their free time talking with
other about Fedora and Open Source.
So does Ubuntu. Why Mark pick Beijing to go is something we can think
about.
Thanks for your opinion
Francesco Ugolini
--
Leo
6372
days inactive
6389
days old
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
34 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Francesco Ugolini -
J. Hartline -
Karlie Robinson -
Leo -
Marc Wiriadisastra -
Michel Salim -
Nicola Losito -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram -
Rino Mardo -
Sam Folk-Williams -
Thomas Canniot -
Thomas Chung