Hello: The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly. I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish - all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know). The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide. Regards, Christopher. _______________________________________________ music mailing list music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music

I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to record but is confused by how to get started. I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of guide and some example workflows. Ie, how to start recording in Ardour. Install ardour and Qjackctl. Open Qjackctl. etc. Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check what program is monitoring. Arm the track, go. Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo track/Switch to JACK mode/etc.. Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for terms a novice might not understand. It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I wouldn't be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no simple entry point to get started recording music. My 2c Cheers Nicholas On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Antila <crantila(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote: > Hello: > > The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio > software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being > written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. > Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly. > > I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the > documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You > are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish > - all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the > context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most > subscribers to this list will already know). > > The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for > testing is written. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing > > All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you > would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit > requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for > Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons > of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions > will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide. > > > Regards, > Christopher. > _______________________________________________ > music mailing list > music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music >

Christopher, I wouldn't classify myself as an "absolute beginner" but I just did: yum install qtractor which installed: qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12 I then typed: qtractor and got: qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii - I've got no idea where to go from here . . Thanks, Phil. On 2010-07-10 06:03, Christopher Antila wrote: > Thanks for your response and comments. One of the biggest issues that > I've had to face is the extensive documentation, explanation, and > instructions required to do even simple audio tasks - as you noted. > > Also, because I wanted to include a wide variety of software, no > particular topic is covered beyond what I might consider a "basic > understanding." With that in mind, a particular focus has been to get > the user operating with the minimum knowledge they need to both complete > simple tasks, and to find ways to complete complex tasks. It's > difficult to say how successful this has been. > > As the author of the Guide, I would greatly appreciate the input that > could be provided by an absolute beginner (with audio software) who is > nonetheless determined to learn - this is one of the primary target > audiences! In particular, once the Ardour portion has been completed, > it would be useful to know how to further include people who have never > done audio recording work. > > As for whether your brother is the person for this task, I will leave to > you to decide :) > > > Thanks again, > Christopher. > > On 07/09/2010 03:45 AM, Nicholas Manojlovic wrote: >> I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to >> record but >> is confused by how to get started. >> >> I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of >> guide and some example workflows. >> >> Ie, how to start recording in Ardour. >> >> Install ardour and Qjackctl. >> >> Open Qjackctl. etc. >> >> Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check >> what >> program is monitoring. Arm the track, go. >> >> Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo >> track/Switch to JACK mode/etc.. >> >> Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would >> probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for >> terms a >> novice might not understand. >> >> It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I >> wouldn't >> be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no >> simple >> entry point to get started recording music. >> >> My 2c >> >> Cheers >> Nicholas >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher >> Antila&lt;crantila(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote: >> >>> Hello: >>> >>> The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio >>> software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being >>> written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. >>> Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added >>> regularly. >>> >>> I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the >>> documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. >>> You >>> are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you >>> wish >>> - all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the >>> context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most >>> subscribers to this list will already know). >>> >>> The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for >>> testing is written. >>> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing >>> >>> All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you >>> would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit >>> requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for >>> Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons >>> of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and >>> additions >>> will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Christopher. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> music mailing list >>> music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org >>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > music mailing list > music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music

Alas, the RPMFusion version of qtractor is quite buggy, perhaps nearing unusable. (see http://old.nabble.com/qtractor-on-planetccrma-older-than-rpmfusion-versio... for more info) If you must install an rpm , or want to check it out without investing any time: http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.src.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-debuginfo-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm Orcan will have to give further information about rpmfusion getting an update on a fast-running-project straight out of subversion, just because an enthusiastic user said it was ok to do... and safer/better/faster/stronger than any of the RPM versions around, including mine. That's why I advised: ........ Use the subversion trunk bleeding-edge version -- it just means more bugs are fixed -- http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-downloads.html#SVN and compile/install http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html#Installation . To see Rui's progress: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor/trunk/?view=log ......... Given the steady trickle of updates, I wonder whether a 0.5 release is upcoming, which would solve some of Orcan's potential issues w/ maintaining a totally random version of some random package.... Because it is no random package it's a gem lacking a little polish: an open and free version of http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/ (or at least cakewalk pro audio: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/software-ecology-rui-nuno-capela: "By late in this time I was just another user of some Windows applications, of which only the Cakewalk Pro Audio DAW do I still praise" ). Niels http://nielsmayer.com

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Christopher Antila <crantila(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Qtractor from RPM Fusion may be quite buggy, but in no way have I had an > experience to consider it nearly unusable. I've been using it for quite > a while now, and it hasn't crashed once. Keep in mind, Qtractor is > still "Alpha" software, according to its SourceForge website. FYI -- the reason why I mentioned Qtractor is because I saw it absent in the guide URL you posted. I'm glad to see you're using it and hope your guide will include information on this premier Linux DAW. The other reason I mentioned it: Nicholas' reply suggested some very capable and complex tools that would all have to be explained, configured, interconnected, etc. This would be very discouraging to a student faced with the complexity explosion caused by combining Ardour, Qjackctl, and Hydrogen: That's why I suggested a more-integrated tool like Qtractor is appropriate to the student and beginners. Tools like Ardour would be more appropriate for the "pro" doing mastering. Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and "make install" ... Here's one example of the kinds of bugs I'm talking about -- you won't see it unless you're using a multichannel audio interface and performing certain operations on audio buses ... http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=30216... I've hit this bug too -- just fixed: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor?view=revision&rev... Niels http://nielsmayer.com PS: Regarding Mastering and Level setting ( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Recording/DAW_Common_Ele... ). Consider using http://www.64studio.com/book/export/html/1236 as a starting point ( from http://www.64studio.com/manual/audio ). Consider suggesting Bob Katz' "K System" http://www.digido.com/level-practices-part-2-includes-the-k-system.html which is implemented in Fons Adriaensen's jkmeter ( http://www.kokkinizita.net/linuxaudio/downloads/jkmeter-0.4.0.tar.bz2 ) and available PlanetCCRMA's repositories. See also: http://old.nabble.com/First-release-of-jkmeter-td18798950.html http://old.nabble.com/digital-volume-sounds-better-at-0-dB--ts28928647.html

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:37:07AM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote: > > Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of > Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why > I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on > what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do > things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash > it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash > despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in > subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn > directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and > "make install" ... Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what the guide recommends. Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a Fedora repository, preferably.) If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the packages will be in the repo for the reader. BTW, thanks for making your packages available, I'll give them a try and let you know how it goes. (I'd consider recommending that we point readers at a fedorapeople.org yum repo as a workaround because it gives us more flexibility to get them to move to the formal repo when packages are fixed there.) - Karsten _______________________________________________ music mailing list music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity > for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method > to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what > the guide recommends. That's just my recommendation for the time being. At some point soon enough, Rui will have an official release containing all the fixes i've been getting off subversion. And then sometime after that, it'll be packaged for fedora. I'm not worried that this will happen.

I was simply stating that if you want to use qtractor these days, development has been fast and furious, and the RPM packages have not been able to keep up with the pace of development. The guide should point to fedora repositories for these packages. It should not suggest people build their own. > Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? > I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got > going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many > of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a > Fedora repository, preferably.) There's nothing special going on. However, the usual problem is happening. Qtractor can be built with MP3 support, -- but FC's blacklist necessitates a "crippled" version of qtractor that can't read from MP3 files (in case you have existing MP3 source material you want to mix or remix). In order to streamline maintenance and reduce duplication of effort, this issue needs to be solved for all apps, once and for all, in a generic fashion, and that solution should be standardized and shared among all apps that are plagued by this problem, e.g.: (1) sonic-visualiser.x86_64 1.7.2-1.fc12 vs. sonic-visualiser-freeworld.x86_64 1.7.1-1.fc12 (from rpmfusion-free-updates). (2) xmms.x86_64 1:1.2.11-9.20071117cvs.fc12 vs xmms2-freeworld.x86_640.6-1.fc12 (rpmfusion-free) (3) audacity.x86_64 1.3.11-0.1.beta.fc12 vs audacity-freeworld.x86_64 1.3.7-0.6.1.beta.fc11 (rpmfusion-free) ...and any other app that expects MP3 support beyond xine or gstreamer plugins from rpmfusion. Specifically a dynamically loadable liblame: http://old.nabble.com/fedora-packaging----packages-that-can-dyn-load-blac... suggests a starting point. > If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, > perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the > packages will be in the repo for the reader. Certainly by F14, qtractor will probably be out of "alpha" and may even be in "final" release... So it makes sense to write as if this were going to be the case. -- Niels http://nielsmayer.com

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <nando(a)ccrma.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: > I would like to point out that Qtractor is oriented to stereo output. The 'View->Buses..." menu allows configuration of multiple channels of audio beyond two. I just configured a 12 channel track, for example. There is a bug related to this issue, and it may indicate that it has been tested more with stereo output and non-multichannel cards. The gui itself permits configuration of up to 99 channels. > A while back I tried to use for something simple, and that stopped me - I > don't think I could get it to change the number of channels in the > master output. You can get it to change the number of channels, but it may crash jackd in the process. Requiring a qtractor restart after you save the file/template with the multichannel audio bus. This is a known bug: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=30216... that is still present in subversion. After jackd crashed, I was able to save the qtractor template with a 12-channel audio template and it correctly setup that 12 channel template next time I restarted qjackctl and restarted qtractor. Qjackctl indicated 12 audio inputs (Master/in_*) and outputs (Master/out_*) available in qtractor, in addition to the 2 channels of monitor (Player/out_*). The mixer shows 12-channel metering, etc. Clearly there is support for multichannel audio. The bug only seems to be invoked on bus creation with multichannel sound cards. And not stereo cards. > Ardour is more complex but you get a return from the investment of > learning it (as usual). I don't think it's fair to compare a bug in an "alpha" (<0.5) opensource software package with a many-years-old project nearing 3.0... But yes, ardour is very comprehensive -- and totally confusing and overwhelming to the novice.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <nando(a)ccrma.stanford.edu&gt; wrote: > I'm not comparing a bug to a non-bug. When I tested qtractor a while > back I could _not_ do that (as far as I can remember). BTW, if qtractor > (insert smilie here) is sooo alpha - and I don't think it is - then I > would not recommend it for novices for that very same reason :-) FYI, Hopefully Rui won't mind my forwarding part of his reply in response to my forwarding of my message responding to Fernando: ............ ............ ............ ............ yep. that's correct, you can have 1-99 channels on any qtractor bus. however, Fernando has partly good reason, qtractor is more oriented to stereo setups. having more that 1-2 channels in any one bus or track will certainly work and it may give you some interesting results when dealing with disparate audio files in terms of number of channels. eg. rendering a stereo audio file on a 12-channel track/bus will make it through as 6 stereo pairs at the output, original left channel on the odd numbered output channels and the original right on the even ones.

This actually suggests a good trick for my base-setup. I could setup a 4channel bus and when I want to have parallel monitoring on headphones and mains (which is how i have my delta-66 4 outputs setup) I could use this second bus for such purposes: it would automatically duplicate stereo tracks it is playing back across all channels. Or send the outputs to a "quadraphonic" system utilizing all four outputs. You could probably setup 6-channels and have it duplicate the mains to the spdif output as well... As to the rest of Rui's reply, that's a separate thread/message. I wonder if there's a way to run Qtractor without Jackd, using only ALSA audio devices? This would be for performance reasons, on an underpowered "music computer" running a realtime kernel and fitted with a soundcard containing a digital mixer (none of which exists yet, but will, when i upgrade a server currently using the mobo/cpu) http://old.nabble.com/performance-tradeoffs-of-using-ALSA-dshare-plugin-f...

This is to say, "Your mileage may vary." The open-source philosophy encourages people to choose the solution that works best for them.

>        yum install qtractor > > which installed: > >        qtractor  x86_64  0.4.6-1.fc14 >        rubberband  x86_64  1.5.0-1.fc12

>        qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: > _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii I see that you are using rawhide (Fedora 14 pre-alpha).