Hi All,
Firstly sorry for the cross post, I think its some what relevant for both.
I started this discussion in the F-13 timeframe but it was too late in the cycle and was considered to risky, leading up to the beta it might be a little close too.
Looking through the various kickstart files in the git repo while looking at a couple of issues that I'm seeing on my own spins I have a couple of queries.
Firstly in fedora-live-minimization.ks and fedora-livecd-desktop.ks there's a whole lot of removal of packages. This is basically what i do in the fedora-live-mini.ks and I think things like @printing can (and should be) removed from base so that other kick starts don't have to explicitly remove everything that it adds in. Its easy enough for the people that want printing to add the one liner into their own kickstart.
There's also a comment in the fedora-live-minimization.ks about removing them from comps for F-14. Is there a reason this hasn't happened? I was also suprised to see things like "printing" related things in the base-x group in comps. It looks like someone had this on their todo list, is it still there?
Ultimately I would like to get rid of the fedora-live-mini.ks file and use the mainline base. I believe that base should be exactly that... the base/core packages and all the useful scripting. Then possibly have a base-desktop which adds all the core X stuff that any desktop spin would need (plus associated related scripts that all could make use of like X auto login). From there a desktop based spin would just need to pull in the base-desktop.ks to get all the core stuff to get to a minimal X.
Thoughts?
Peter
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 22:48:48 +0100, "pbrobinson@gmail.com" pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
Firstly in fedora-live-minimization.ks and fedora-livecd-desktop.ks there's a whole lot of removal of packages. This is basically what i do in the fedora-live-mini.ks and I think things like @printing can (and should be) removed from base so that other kick starts don't have to explicitly remove everything that it adds in. Its easy enough for the people that want printing to add the one liner into their own kickstart.
I am not sure who owns the base (and core) definitons. Requesting a change to make removing printing easier seems like a good idea.
I do have a question before we go that route though. Would using -@printing work to drop the printing stuff before the deps are brought in?
Ultimately I would like to get rid of the fedora-live-mini.ks file and use the mainline base. I believe that base should be exactly that... the base/core packages and all the useful scripting. Then possibly have a base-desktop which adds all the core X stuff that any desktop spin would need (plus associated related scripts that all could make use of like X auto login). From there a desktop based spin would just need to pull in the base-desktop.ks to get all the core stuff to get to a minimal X.
I believe the perferred state is that live-base would be preferred for minimial spins and alternate desktop enivorments, and normal spins would base off of livecd-desktop or live-desktop. So I think movement in that direction would be good.
Again its getting late in the process for F14, but maybe some stuff get get done for this release and other prep work can be done so that we can get more changes into F15.
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 22:48:48 +0100, "pbrobinson@gmail.com" pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
Firstly in fedora-live-minimization.ks and fedora-livecd-desktop.ks there's a whole lot of removal of packages. This is basically what i do in the fedora-live-mini.ks and I think things like @printing can (and should be) removed from base so that other kick starts don't have to explicitly remove everything that it adds in. Its easy enough for the people that want printing to add the one liner into their own kickstart.
I am not sure who owns the base (and core) definitons. Requesting a change to make removing printing easier seems like a good idea.
I do have a question before we go that route though. Would using -@printing work to drop the printing stuff before the deps are brought in?
Unfortunately I think the minus only works on individual packages. I did once try it but from memory its just ignored.
Ultimately I would like to get rid of the fedora-live-mini.ks file and use the mainline base. I believe that base should be exactly that... the base/core packages and all the useful scripting. Then possibly have a base-desktop which adds all the core X stuff that any desktop spin would need (plus associated related scripts that all could make use of like X auto login). From there a desktop based spin would just need to pull in the base-desktop.ks to get all the core stuff to get to a minimal X.
I believe the perferred state is that live-base would be preferred for minimial spins and alternate desktop enivorments, and normal spins would base off of livecd-desktop or live-desktop. So I think movement in that direction would be good.
Again its getting late in the process for F14, but maybe some stuff get get done for this release and other prep work can be done so that we can get more changes into F15.
I realise that. I meant to bring this up just after F-13 came out, unfortunately just before it came out I moved to a new position and instantly got snowed under and I missed it. printing/fonts and some of the input types bring in fairly large dependencies. The later two might need some more work but printing seems to be the one that is globally removed from most live images so it seems somewhat stupid to include it in the base.
Peter
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On 8/31/10 3:19 PM, pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
I do have a question before we go that route though. Would using -@printing work to drop the printing stuff before the deps are brought in?
Unfortunately I think the minus only works on individual packages. I did once try it but from memory its just ignored.
I thought pykickstart added support for -@group recently. It could be that the livecd tools don't make use of this yet.
- -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
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On 8/31/10 3:19 PM, pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
I do have a question before we go that route though. Would using -@printing work to drop the printing stuff before the deps are brought in?
Unfortunately I think the minus only works on individual packages. I did once try it but from memory its just ignored.
I thought pykickstart added support for -@group recently. It could be that the livecd tools don't make use of this yet.
It could be also that its been added and I wasn't aware of it, but the later is also very likely given livecd-tools has seen very few changes of late.
Even so I still see it as pointless that its added as default only to be remove by many.
Peter
On 01/09/10 08:41, pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
Even so I still see it as pointless that its added as default only to be remove by many.
I would like to think that people might not want to print to tree, but to pdf for transmission by email etc. It would be good to have a group that provides this minimum functionality for any application that provides printing capability.
(It wouldn't make sense to automatically include such a thing in every livecd).
Again probably too late for group changes at this stage ? Furthering Peter's email, what's the best place to track future plans like this so that we can be reminded of them at the appropriate time ?
On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 21:17:39 +1000, David Timms dtimms@iinet.net.au wrote:
Again probably too late for group changes at this stage ?
Simple changes should still be fine, overhauls are not. I am not sure if what you're proposing is simple or not.
Furthering Peter's email, what's the best place to track future plans like this so that we can be reminded of them at the appropriate time ?
Some places that make make sense: An RFE bug against spin-kickstarts cc'd to relevant spin owners. A spins trac ticket, again cc'd to relevant spin owners. A comment on the discussion page for the relevant spin.
For spins that aren't tight on space adding things are easier. There are a few where fitting on a CD or within the FAT size limit is important and being able to do rare things might not be considered important enough.
Some spins inherit from the livecd desktop or live desktop depending on whether or not they are tight on size. So by getting something added to live desktop, it will probably get used by the spins that aren't tightly constrained.
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 21:17:39 +1000, David Timms dtimms@iinet.net.au wrote:
Again probably too late for group changes at this stage ?
Simple changes should still be fine, overhauls are not. I am not sure if what you're proposing is simple or not.
Furthering Peter's email, what's the best place to track future plans like this so that we can be reminded of them at the appropriate time ?
Some places that make make sense: An RFE bug against spin-kickstarts cc'd to relevant spin owners. A spins trac ticket, again cc'd to relevant spin owners. A comment on the discussion page for the relevant spin.
For spins that aren't tight on space adding things are easier. There are a few where fitting on a CD or within the FAT size limit is important and being able to do rare things might not be considered important enough.
Some spins inherit from the livecd desktop or live desktop depending on whether or not they are tight on size. So by getting something added to live desktop, it will probably get used by the spins that aren't tightly constrained.
In some cases this is actually changes to the comps xml file so it has possible (although in most cases due to rpm deps unlikely) wider ranging effect than just on spins.
Peter
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