I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing <cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 10:24 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing <cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
To be fair, the installer _is_ workable on almost all netbooks. The 701 has an extremely small low-resolution screen. No-one makes netbooks that small any more, not even Asus. Probably scrollbars on anaconda could work around this, but that may not be simple to implement.
On 01/06/2010 10:45 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 10:24 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing<cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
To be fair, the installer _is_ workable on almost all netbooks. The 701 has an extremely small low-resolution screen. No-one makes netbooks that small any more, not even Asus. Probably scrollbars on anaconda could work around this, but that may not be simple to implement.
OK. I only have experience with this 701 that I picked up on ebay. And I am even using an 8Gb SD card in the SD slot to have enough disk space to run FC12 on it (it came with a 4Gb SSD drive).
There are other small screen devices that will be coming out and scrolling and panning would be nice to have.
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480? That seems like a reasonable resolution to expect Fedora to work without *horrible* UI problems. Especially given that it's not a hypothetical need; you're actually running into problems on a system that people might reasonably run Fedora on. (And small screens have undergone something of a renaissance, so it's good if Fedora could be a bit more flexible - who knows what will be coming out next year.)
I guess the thing to do next is file a bug against Anaconda and ask that it run at this resolution without the need for "secret" keypress.
-B.
On 01/06/2010 12:44 PM, Christopher Beland wrote:
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480?
It supports up to 800x600!
That seems like a reasonable resolution to expect Fedora to work without *horrible* UI problems. Especially given that it's not a hypothetical need; you're actually running into problems on a system that people might reasonably run Fedora on. (And small screens have undergone something of a renaissance, so it's good if Fedora could be a bit more flexible - who knows what will be coming out next year.)
I guess the thing to do next is file a bug against Anaconda and ask that it run at this resolution without the need for "secret" keypress.
I will do that later today.
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 13:02 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/06/2010 12:44 PM, Christopher Beland wrote:
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480?
It supports up to 800x600!
No, it doesn't. It supports 800x480. X might claim there's an 800x600 mode (and either pan around on that, or scale it down vertically), but that screen is only 480 pixels tall.
- ajax
On 01/06/2010 01:16 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 13:02 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/06/2010 12:44 PM, Christopher Beland wrote:
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480?
It supports up to 800x600!
No, it doesn't. It supports 800x480. X might claim there's an 800x600 mode (and either pan around on that, or scale it down vertically), but that screen is only 480 pixels tall.
oh.... yep. there it is, and I see where I got confused as the 'low res' is 640x480.
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:44 -0500, Christopher Beland wrote:
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480? That seems like a reasonable resolution to expect Fedora to work without *horrible* UI problems.
I'm finding it very hard to think of any other remotely current bit of hardware you might conceivably want to run Fedora on, which doesn't have at least 600 pixels vertically.
The last time I had a system with this problem was a Sony Vaio Picturebook C1XD - which was 1024x480. I bought that system in 2001. The Picturebook line went to 600 pixels vertically with the next revision. It was discontinued several years ago...
On Thu, 2010-01-07 at 14:30 +0000, Adam Williamson wrote:
I'm finding it very hard to think of any other remotely current bit of hardware you might conceivably want to run Fedora on, which doesn't have at least 600 pixels vertically.
The last time I had a system with this problem was a Sony Vaio Picturebook C1XD - which was 1024x480. I bought that system in 2001. The Picturebook line went to 600 pixels vertically with the next revision. It was discontinued several years ago...
Well, we're still supporting CPU architectures that first appeared circa 1995...people are certainly still running systems they bought in 2001. It would be nice to tell my Dad (who was in this boat last week), "oh well it won't run Vista, but I'm sure if you do a minimal Fedora install on it you can still check your email" and not have his reply be "the installer was broken, I couldn't make it past the first screen" because the "Next" button fell off the screen.
At some point, I certainly agree the cost to developers of supporting software for old hardware becomes greater than the cost to end users (who aren't even necessarily paying for software support) that would be involved in upgrading the hardware. But if applications and Anaconda responded to "by Jove, this screen is unreasonably small for my well-proportioned user interface" situations by throwing up emergency scroll bars or eliminating gratuitous whitespace, that doesn't seem like too much trouble to go to. Especially since small screens (real or virtual) could be in the unimagined future as much as they are in the wish-it-were-forgotten past.
It *would* actually inform these sorts of decisions to see some Smolt data on what screen sizes real users actually have right now, but after poking around some in the web database this info is not jumping out at me.
-B.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Christopher Beland beland@alum.mit.edu wrote:
Well, we're still supporting CPU architectures that first appeared circa 1995...people are certainly still running systems they bought in 2001. It would be nice to tell my Dad (who was in this boat last week), "oh well it won't run Vista, but I'm sure if you do a minimal Fedora install on it you can still check your email" and not have his reply be "the installer was broken, I couldn't make it past the first screen" because the "Next" button fell off the screen.
Well, you can use text install then, can't you?
2010/1/8 Vedran Miletić rivanvx@gmail.com
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Christopher Beland beland@alum.mit.edu wrote:
Well, we're still supporting CPU architectures that first appeared circa 1995...people are certainly still running systems they bought in 2001. It would be nice to tell my Dad (who was in this boat last week), "oh well it won't run Vista, but I'm sure if you do a minimal Fedora install on it you can still check your email" and not have his reply be "the installer was broken, I couldn't make it past the first screen" because the "Next" button fell off the screen.
Well, you can use text install then, can't you?
If a nice solution can't be agreed upon... then it should auto-run in text mode only under those circumstances.
On 01/08/2010 05:19 AM, Vedran Miletić wrote:
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Christopher Belandbeland@alum.mit.edu wrote:
Well, we're still supporting CPU architectures that first appeared circa 1995...people are certainly still running systems they bought in 2001. It would be nice to tell my Dad (who was in this boat last week), "oh well it won't run Vista, but I'm sure if you do a minimal Fedora install on it you can still check your email" and not have his reply be "the installer was broken, I couldn't make it past the first screen" because the "Next" button fell off the screen.
Well, you can use text install then, can't you?
I am always fiddling with the partitions. I suppose mr home user does not.
Then there is the apps selection which is difficult to use in text mode.
On Fri, Jan 08, 2010 at 09:21:12AM -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/08/2010 05:19 AM, Vedran Miletić wrote:
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Christopher Belandbeland@alum.mit.edu wrote:
Well, we're still supporting CPU architectures that first appeared circa
1995...people are certainly still running systems they bought in 2001. It would be nice to tell my Dad (who was in this boat last week), "oh well it won't run Vista, but I'm sure if you do a minimal Fedora install on it you can still check your email" and not have his reply be "the installer was broken, I couldn't make it past the first screen" because the "Next" button fell off the screen.
Well, you can use text install then, can't you?
I am always fiddling with the partitions. I suppose mr home user does not.
If text mode hadn't become so limited, it would be more of an option. I don't know what the "average" user does. I suppose the average user will use Windows--I have no idea if MS has managed to solve this issue (or indeed, if any of the distributions that use GUI installers do--but the Ubuntu based ones have a more flexible install from the live CD---where you're already on the desktop, and therefore, can use various key shortcuts to move the window.
So, if Fedora's target is the type of person who takes the default install, and is more or less just trying to escape Windows, then the issue should be fixed, either by scrollbar or other means. If they're aiming towards the more advanced user, textmode shouldn't have become crippled. :)
Then there is the apps selection which is difficult to use in text mode.
Yeah, that's another thing. Pity that the minimal install option has been removed.
On 01/07/2010 09:30 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:44 -0500, Christopher Beland wrote:
It appears the screen size on the Asus 701ee is 800x480? That seems like a reasonable resolution to expect Fedora to work without *horrible* UI problems.
I'm finding it very hard to think of any other remotely current bit of hardware you might conceivably want to run Fedora on, which doesn't have at least 600 pixels vertically.
The last time I had a system with this problem was a Sony Vaio Picturebook C1XD - which was 1024x480. I bought that system in 2001. The Picturebook line went to 600 pixels vertically with the next revision. It was discontinued several years ago...
Look at the OQO (oqo.com) Still native 800x480...
I have 4 of the model 2s that I use for portable test systems.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.comwrote:
I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing <cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
I would think it would be simple for the windowing library to compare the size of the requested window to the size of the screen, and auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't be displayed 'as-is'.
(I say its simple, because I stumbled across this in _my_ code 10 years ago, and I added the 4 lines of code required to accomplish it... for me.)
From: Fulko Hew fulko.hew@gmail.com To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases fedora-test-list@redhat.com Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 10:11:23 AM Subject: Re: Fedora install support for netbooks -- small screen size As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size.
+1
On 01/06/2010 11:28 AM, Steven I Usdansky wrote:
From: Fulko Hewfulko.hew@gmail.com To: For testers of Fedora Core development releasesfedora-test-list@redhat.com Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 10:11:23 AM Subject: Re: Fedora install support for netbooks -- small screen size As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size.
+1
I have the same problem on my Asus 1000, What you have to do is hold down ALT key and lock your mouse with left key and move window.
2010/1/6 Jim mickeyboa@sbcglobal.net
On 01/06/2010 11:28 AM, Steven I Usdansky wrote:
From: Fulko Hewfulko.hew@gmail.com
To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases< fedora-test-list@redhat.com> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 10:11:23 AM Subject: Re: Fedora install support for netbooks -- small screen size As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size.
+1
I have the same problem on my Asus 1000, What you have to do is hold down ALT key and lock your mouse with left key and move window.
while this is handy when on the desktop i can't remember if this is possible during install?
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
-AdamM
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Adam Miller maxamillion@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
Let me just emphasize that anaconda is but one example; today's complaint. What about all the other apps that also suffer the same symptom?
Shouldn't the symptom be solved at the root of the problem, not inside every app?
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:47 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Shouldn't the symptom be solved at the root of the problem, not inside every app?
I think we generally end up with better usability if we address the problem at the application level. For example, I've seen instances where there's simply a gratuitous amount of whitespace, or gratuitously large icons, or fixed-sized windows (whether too big or too small) where dynamic window size would work better. Another common problem is overgrowth of preferences or failure to make them scrollable. Oftentimes I think the best solution for that is to prune the number of preferences to a more reasonable number, or better organize them into a larger number of smaller screens.
It certainly wouldn't be unhelpful if the operating system did something more user-friendly to deal with situations where a window is simply too large to fit on the screen. Having the window manager put up scroll bars is an obvious solution, but this takes up valuable space on what is already a crowded screen. The WM could present a pop-up instructing the user to hold down Alt and drag the window as needed, but this seems like it could present accessibility problems. If people do want to advocate for a general solution, am I right in thinking it needs to be solved separately for Anaconda, each login manager, and each desktop environment?
It's definitely good to send application developers feedback when they need to think more about how to display on smaller screens or screens with different aspect ratios (and wider screens are also becoming more common). Even if we are using 800x600 as a minimum, we still have applications that don't function well at that size. (Though I see the Fedora 12 Release Notes don't specify a minimum screen size under Hardware Requirements.)
-B.
On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 04:30:06PM -0500, Christopher Beland wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:47 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Shouldn't the symptom be solved at the root of the problem, not inside every app?
I think we generally end up with better usability if we address the problem at the application level.
With the majority of Desktops and Window Managers, one can resize a Window, play with the resolution, and so forth. So the problem is worst in installation, especially as textmode install now has more severe limitations. There are workarounds, I suppose, prepare the disk in advance, or something, but I haven't tried any.
I seem to recall the same problem with some Debian based systems as well, and even, possibly, ones that are theoretically specially designed for netbooks. My memory is now hazy on it. I have Aspire One, where I put on EEEbuntu for my wife and my own 1000HE (10 inch screen---the Aspire is 8 or 9, I believe) and don't remember too many problems--however, having done so many installs, it's quite possible that I simply muttered a bad word and hit alt N or whatever.
I would think that Anaconda would be the most important thing to get working.
On 01/06/2010 05:20 PM, Scott Robbins wrote:
On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 04:30:06PM -0500, Christopher Beland wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:47 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Shouldn't the symptom be solved at the root of the problem, not inside every app?
I think we generally end up with better usability if we address the problem at the application level.
With the majority of Desktops and Window Managers, one can resize a Window, play with the resolution, and so forth. So the problem is worst in installation, especially as textmode install now has more severe limitations. There are workarounds, I suppose, prepare the disk in advance, or something, but I haven't tried any.
There is always VNC, and I have used that. I have even (with Centos) built special install CDs that connected to my desktop. Thing is, you then have to keep your system stable for the whole install.
If the system has a keyboard and screen, it is nice to be able to use it.
I seem to recall the same problem with some Debian based systems as well, and even, possibly, ones that are theoretically specially designed for netbooks. My memory is now hazy on it. I have Aspire One, where I put on EEEbuntu for my wife and my own 1000HE (10 inch screen---the Aspire is 8 or 9, I believe) and don't remember too many problems--however, having done so many installs, it's quite possible that I simply muttered a bad word and hit alt N or whatever.
I would think that Anaconda would be the most important thing to get working.
On 01/06/2010 12:31 PM, Adam Miller wrote:
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
What do you mean by 'full screen'?
Anaconda is taking up more that the visible screen. I cannot see the lower part of the screens where at least the <Next> button is. Fortunately I developed the habit early on to use <ALt-N> for this, not the mouse.
On 01/06/2010 01:01 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/06/2010 12:31 PM, Adam Miller wrote:
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
What do you mean by 'full screen'?
Anaconda is taking up more that the visible screen. I cannot see the lower part of the screens where at least the <Next> button is. Fortunately I developed the habit early on to use <ALt-N> for this, not the mouse.
Hold Alt key down and lock left mouse key on window and move to where you want it
On 01/06/2010 03:07 PM, Jim wrote:
On 01/06/2010 01:01 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/06/2010 12:31 PM, Adam Miller wrote:
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
What do you mean by 'full screen'?
Anaconda is taking up more that the visible screen. I cannot see the lower part of the screens where at least the <Next> button is. Fortunately I developed the habit early on to use <ALt-N> for this, not the mouse.
Hold Alt key down and lock left mouse key on window and move to where you want it
Have you gotten this to work in anaconda? I could not, and I tried it on both the disk partitioning and the repo selection dialogs.
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 15:07 -0500, Jim wrote:
On 01/06/2010 01:01 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 01/06/2010 12:31 PM, Adam Miller wrote:
doesn't anaconda just go full screen when the resolution is lower than a certain threshold? I'm almost positive that is what happened on my old Asus 701
What do you mean by 'full screen'?
Anaconda is taking up more that the visible screen. I cannot see the lower part of the screens where at least the <Next> button is. Fortunately I developed the habit early on to use <ALt-N> for this, not the mouse.
Hold Alt key down and lock left mouse key on window and move to where you want it
This is a metacity feature. While anaconda does have a window manager (of sorts), it is not metacity.
- ajax
On 01/06/2010 12:20 PM, jon doe wrote:
2010/1/6 Jim <mickeyboa@sbcglobal.net mailto:mickeyboa@sbcglobal.net>
On 01/06/2010 11:28 AM, Steven I Usdansky wrote: From: Fulko Hew<fulko.hew@gmail.com <mailto:fulko.hew@gmail.com>> To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases<fedora-test-list@redhat.com <mailto:fedora-test-list@redhat.com>> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 10:11:23 AM Subject: Re: Fedora install support for netbooks -- small screen size As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. +1 I have the same problem on my Asus 1000, What you have to do is hold down ALT key and lock your mouse with left key and move window.while this is handy when on the desktop i can't remember if this is possible during install?
There nothing you can do about the the size of the windows the resolution of the laptop is what it is .
I have the same problem on my Asus 1000, What you have to do is hold down ALT key and lock your mouse with left key and move window.
while this is handy when on the desktop i can't remember if this is possible during install?
not just during install, but also using VNC - holding Alt key drags the whole vncviewer window, activating remote Alt via vncviewer menu and then trying to drag any window inside does not work ...
(however, the workaround in that case is to start the vncserver with larger screen size and use the sliders provided by vncviewer, but it is extremely uncomfortable in case all your work can be done in a smaller size but only one window does not fit, and because of this one window you have the bigger size and you have to be draging the sliders all the time ...)
K.
On 01/06/2010 11:47 AM, Jim wrote:
On 01/06/2010 11:28 AM, Steven I Usdansky wrote:
From: Fulko Hewfulko.hew@gmail.com To: For testers of Fedora Core development releasesfedora-test-list@redhat.com Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 10:11:23 AM Subject: Re: Fedora install support for netbooks -- small screen size As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size.
+1
I have the same problem on my Asus 1000, What you have to do is hold down ALT key and lock your mouse with left key and move window.
I use this a lot for various screens. Back on FC10, you could NOT do this for SELinux Management, but I see it works now for FC12.
It does not work in the install, though.
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:11 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
So that 64x64 screen on your cell phone should be a reasonable target then, yes?
- ajax
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Adam Jackson ajax@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:11 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
So that 64x64 screen on your cell phone should be a reasonable target then, yes?
Well, uhmm... doesn't it have to be? ;-() Auto-scroll bar's would at least make it possible to work (even if its inconvenient); but without it, it's _impossible_ to use.
The only alternative would be to re-design the UI based on expected hardware limitations.
I was (only) trying to address typical problems I've seen lately... where, for example, the designer 'assumed' I'd have a 1280x1024 display because thats 'current', or, thats what _they_ had, so they didn't even think that others would have issues.
The problem then got exacerbated when current/new hardware is coming out with 800x600 screens or even worse.
But for really small screens... ie. custom devices and appliances, non-traditional computers, (phones, etc.) then UI's really should be re-designed instead.
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:26 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Auto-scroll bar's would at least make it possible to work (even if its inconvenient); but without it, it's _impossible_ to use.
The only alternative would be to re-design the UI based on expected hardware limitations.
It's funny you should say that.
We've had 800x600 as the expected minimum for _years_. Like, since it was called Red Hat Linux. It's not even a particularly egregious assumption, that's the fallback resolution for Windows 2k and later, and it's the Gnome HIG minimum design size.
That's why anaconda has a fixed-size UI, and why that fixed size happens to be 800x600.
And it turns out that trying to make a UI like that - disk partitioning in particular - that scales well to arbitrary screen sizes is actually pretty dang impossible. This is why the text mode installer got cut down, so that it now basically only has "I'm going to install now, try and stop me". You just can't represent enough information in that little space. And the same is probably true of the netbook install experience too. You don't care about partitioning, you don't care about multiboot, you just want the OS on the machine dangit.
That's a far better experience than throwing up some scrollbars and hoping.
- ajax
On 01/06/2010 01:57 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:26 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Auto-scroll bar's would at least make it possible to work (even if its inconvenient); but without it, it's _impossible_ to use.
The only alternative would be to re-design the UI based on expected hardware limitations.
It's funny you should say that.
We've had 800x600 as the expected minimum for _years_. Like, since it was called Red Hat Linux. It's not even a particularly egregious assumption, that's the fallback resolution for Windows 2k and later, and it's the Gnome HIG minimum design size.
That's why anaconda has a fixed-size UI, and why that fixed size happens to be 800x600.
And it turns out that trying to make a UI like that - disk partitioning in particular - that scales well to arbitrary screen sizes is actually pretty dang impossible. This is why the text mode installer got cut down, so that it now basically only has "I'm going to install now, try and stop me". You just can't represent enough information in that little space. And the same is probably true of the netbook install experience too. You don't care about partitioning, you don't care about multiboot, you just want the OS on the machine dangit.
Actually, I DO work with disk partitioning. It is NOT TOO hard...
:)
That's a far better experience than throwing up some scrollbars and hoping.
- ajax
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Adam Jackson ajax@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 12:26 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
Auto-scroll bar's would at least make it possible to work (even if its inconvenient); but without it, it's _impossible_ to use.
The only alternative would be to re-design the UI based on expected hardware limitations.
It's funny you should say that.
We've had 800x600 as the expected minimum for _years_. Like, since it was called Red Hat Linux. It's not even a particularly egregious assumption, that's the fallback resolution for Windows 2k and later, and it's the Gnome HIG minimum design size.
That's why anaconda has a fixed-size UI, and why that fixed size happens to be 800x600.
Well minimum is fine; but it is also the maximum which is rather sucks, it shouldn't be hardcoded to be always 800x600 even on a 1980x1200 screen...
We've had 800x600 as the expected minimum for _years_. Like, since it was called Red Hat Linux. It's not even a particularly egregious assumption, that's the fallback resolution for Windows 2k and later, and it's the Gnome HIG minimum design size.
That's why anaconda has a fixed-size UI, and why that fixed size happens to be 800x600.
imho, 800x600 should be used only as the last option, if resolution
detection fails, and i assume detection doesn't fail that often.
On Thu, 2010-01-07 at 00:08 +0100, drago01 wrote:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Adam Jackson ajax@redhat.com wrote:
It's funny you should say that.
We've had 800x600 as the expected minimum for _years_. Like, since it was called Red Hat Linux. It's not even a particularly egregious assumption, that's the fallback resolution for Windows 2k and later, and it's the Gnome HIG minimum design size.
That's why anaconda has a fixed-size UI, and why that fixed size happens to be 800x600.
Well minimum is fine; but it is also the maximum which is rather sucks, it shouldn't be hardcoded to be always 800x600 even on a 1980x1200 screen...
On a 2560x1600 screen, mousing all the way from the text entry fields in the top left to the buttons in the bottom right is something of a chore. 1920x1200 isn't much better.
Arbitrarily scalable UIs are really really hard.
- ajax
On 01/06/2010 12:04 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:11 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
So that 64x64 screen on your cell phone should be a reasonable target then, yes?
Oh, yah! :) And on my Sansa Connect! ;)
No, but on my OQO Model 2s.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Adam Jackson ajax@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:11 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
So that 64x64 screen on your cell phone should be a reasonable target then, yes?
No, but then there's a lot of smart phones/mids/media players moving to the 800x480 res screens with 1Ghz+ processors now and while I see other alternatives rather than doing a traditional install on these sort of devices (liveinst from a livecd? dd of an image directly? something else I've missed entirely) I wouldn't rule out a massive amount of devices running at that res. I have a O2 Joggler which is a 800x480 touch screen atom based device with a EFI BIOS so can easily run Fedora. While that res has (thankfully) disappeared from netbooks its certainly not about to disappear any time soon.
Peter
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 08:36:05 +0000 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Adam Jackson ajax@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-01-06 at 11:11 -0500, Fulko Hew wrote:
I had a rant on the list about an equivalent issue a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned either developers should never assume fixed window sizes, or something/somewhere should auto-enable scroll bars if the requested window can't fit on the provided screen size. I think this would be easier to implement than auto-enabled vitrtual screen sizes.
So that 64x64 screen on your cell phone should be a reasonable target then, yes?
No, but then there's a lot of smart phones/mids/media players moving to the 800x480 res screens with 1Ghz+ processors now and while I see other alternatives rather than doing a traditional install on these sort of devices (liveinst from a livecd? dd of an image directly? something else I've missed entirely)
Install via kickstart? Sure, this is not what most end-users would do, but it is not that difficult.
François
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing <cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
I don't know why I didn't think of this when I installed F12 on my 704 but I do have two old CRT monitors laying around. The simplest work around may be to use those instead during the install. I gave up and went with the LiveCD originally, but I don't want ext4 and I've noticed a significant performance hit using it. I also created a striped LVM last time (4G SSD/4G SD card) under F11 which may have helped as well which I can't do with the LiveCD.
Richard
I just installed F14 on my Asus 701ee and ALL the screens I encountered during the installation fit nicely on the 800x480 screen size.
I would like to thank the developers that decided this was worth doing.
I will note, however, that you missed the 'Create User' and 'Date and Time' dialogs of the post installation process, they are the only ones of the post installation process I encountered that did not fit on 800x480 and I had to 'guess' that Alt-F would move me Forward or Finish.
I will say that the changes to Disk Druid are significant and I 'studied' what keystrokes (on F14 installs on more 'regular' hardware) to use to work with it, assuming I would not see the dialog buttons since they got moved to the bottom of the screen. Fortunately, I did not need this.
On 01/06/2010 10:24 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I am doing another FC12 install on my ASUS 701ee. This is a test system, and I end up installing every month or so.
Of course with the small screen size, I end up pressing <cntl-N> a lot, as I cannot see the Next button. And on some screens I just miss some options, like getting to customize the install packages. I am always forgetting the key combo to turn that check box on.
Is there some way to either get the ability to pan the screen around or scroll the screen so that on Netbooks that SHOULD be a popular install platform for Fedora, can have workable installation?
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just installed F14 on my Asus 701ee and ALL the screens I encountered during the installation fit nicely on the 800x480 screen size.
I would like to thank the developers that decided this was worth doing.
I will note, however, that you missed the 'Create User' and 'Date and Time' dialogs of the post installation process, they are the only ones of the post installation process I encountered that did not fit on 800x480 and I had to 'guess' that Alt-F would move me Forward or Finish.
A useful hint is also that often on a netbook I find that Alt-left button/hold then use the touchpad to slide will move a window up beyond the top of the desktop limit. Or Alt-Left button/hold on an attached mouse and drag up achieves the same - and you can then access the bottom of the popup window for the dialog which includes access to the button to close the dialog.
On 01/12/2011 02:10 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Robert Moskowitzrgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just installed F14 on my Asus 701ee and ALL the screens I encountered during the installation fit nicely on the 800x480 screen size.
I would like to thank the developers that decided this was worth doing.
I will note, however, that you missed the 'Create User' and 'Date and Time' dialogs of the post installation process, they are the only ones of the post installation process I encountered that did not fit on 800x480 and I had to 'guess' that Alt-F would move me Forward or Finish.
A useful hint is also that often on a netbook I find that Alt-left button/hold then use the touchpad to slide will move a window up beyond the top of the desktop limit. Or Alt-Left button/hold on an attached mouse and drag up achieves the same - and you can then access the bottom of the popup window for the dialog which includes access to the button to close the dialog.
I use that for dialog windows too. But is 'Create User' a dialog window that you can move? I will have to wait until the next install on a netbook I do :)
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