11:31 a.m.
I received the email announcement.
I have read every page at fedora.redhat.com
I have found no clarification about just what the implication is of the
following statement from fedora.us and similar statements at
fedoda.redhat.com
* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic packages
due to licensing issues.
Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
I am not one who complained or had a problem with Red Hat taking this
stand BUT I was very, very glad to able to go to Fedora and download
versions of these added packages that would work with a standard
install. I HAD high hopes the growth of Fedora would lead to a much,
much easier to use combination RH[L] + Fedora.
I am very concerned these vague statements mean that I will be forced,
once more, to get these added packages from special purpose, limited,
repositories which force me to particular non-standard configurations
(must have ALSA, etc.) and/or back to trying to figure out how to pull
together all the source, build it, etc.
I have only recently, through Fedora, been able to *easily* get various
sound and video apps working on my RH8 and RH9 workstations. In large
part because I could apt/yum apps built to work with my standard RH
installs.
I am also concerned that this "open" project has made only these vague
statements. This seems like a pretty major point and one which you'all
should be up front about.
R.Parr, RHCE
Temporal Arts
12:39 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 09:31:15AM -0700, Randall J. Parr wrote:
I am also concerned that this "open" project has made only
these vague
statements. This seems like a pretty major point and one which you'all
should be up front about.
IANAL, but ...
I think that one should grant that any policy in this area is largely
the domain of lawyers, not engineers, and that it touches on areas
that are far from settled law. There will certainly have to be "3rd Party"
repositories, hosted in the (rapidly shrinking) free world.
Some mechanism will need to be used to find these repositories.
I imagine that it will have to be some sort of search facility, not a
static collection of links, or a hierarchical naming scheme like DNS,
in order to maintain an arms-length relationship. Otherwise, Red Hat
expose itself to charges of contributory infringement.
As a first step, I would suggest defining a repository link filetype,
akin to a torrent file, so that searches in Google or other engines
for (mp3 filetype:fedora) or similar return a useful link. (Use of
a filetype that can be verified by the search engine helps to avoid it
being hijacked for other purposes). Such a mechanism will also likely
require a GPG web-of-trust model for the repository keys, again, to
maintain an arms-length relationship while protecting package integrity.
Regards,
Bill Rugolsky
12:45 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:39:11 -0400
"Bill Rugolsky Jr." <brugolsky(a)telemetry-investments.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 09:31:15AM -0700, Randall J. Parr wrote:
> I am also concerned that this "open" project has made only these
> vague statements. This seems like a pretty major point and one which
> you'all should be up front about.
IANAL, but ...
I think that one should grant that any policy in this area is largely
the domain of lawyers, not engineers, and that it touches on areas
that are far from settled law. There will certainly have to be "3rd
Party"
repositories, hosted in the (rapidly shrinking) free world.
Some mechanism will need to be used to find these repositories.
I imagine that it will have to be some sort of search facility, not a
static collection of links, or a hierarchical naming scheme like DNS,
in order to maintain an arms-length relationship. Otherwise, Red Hat
expose itself to charges of contributory infringement.
As a first step, I would suggest defining a repository link filetype,
akin to a torrent file, so that searches in Google or other engines
for (mp3 filetype:fedora) or similar return a useful link. (Use of
a filetype that can be verified by the search engine helps to avoid it
being hijacked for other purposes). Such a mechanism will also likely
require a GPG web-of-trust model for the repository keys, again, to
maintain an arms-length relationship while protecting package
integrity.
Bill,
IANAL either and maybe that's why i didn't understand much of what you
said. The Fedora Project and RedHat _merged_, what is it exactly that
RedHat must keep an arms length relationship to? Itself?
Sean.
1:02 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 01:45:48PM -0400, Sean Estabrooks wrote:
IANAL either and maybe that's why i didn't understand much of
what you
said. The Fedora Project and RedHat _merged_, what is it exactly that
RedHat must keep an arms length relationship to? Itself?
Code that has legal "issues" -- DMCA (DeCSS), software patents
(MP3, MPEG-4, etc.), copyright violations (fonts, binary codecs, etc.).
One case that particularly irks me is Valgrind, which is apparently a
software patent minefield. (See Bugzilla.) It would be nice to have
a list of applicable patents, and see whether IBM, now that it owns
Rational, can grant some sort of patent cover for it (and qemu?); HP
(via Compaq, via DEC) may also hold some applicable patents.
Bill Rugolsky
12:56 p.m.
Randall J. Parr (RParr(a)TemporalArts.COM) said:
* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic
packages
due to licensing issues.
Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
Correct.
While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
Bill
12:58 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:56:13 -0400
Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Randall J. Parr (RParr(a)TemporalArts.COM) said:
> * This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic
> packages
> due to licensing issues.
>
>
> Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to
> pickup the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included
> in recent Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
Correct.
While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
I see.. this answers my question from earlier as well. thanks.
Sean.
1:19 p.m.
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Randall J. Parr (RParr(a)TemporalArts.COM) said:
>* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic packages
>due to licensing issues.
>
>
>Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
>the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
>Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
>
>
Correct.
While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
Yes, there are but they are limited and/or carry with them considerable
problems/conflicts.
The very problems/conflicts which Fedora was really starting to solve
(for me).
Given the recent retoric on the Fedora and Red Hat newsgroups
I had high hopes the Fedora repository and approach would expand and gain
more wide spread use thus making it even easier to pull-together a fully
functional workstation/desktop.
Now it appears the one good, effective effort has been coopted and devalued.
Yes, I am glad (as a shareholder) to see Red Hat find such a creative
way to improve (exit, pawn off?)
the development process and availability of "Red Hat for the masses"
BUT it appears you've also neutered the best hope/source for all those
other things
Red Hat hasn't wanted to or been able to deal with. The things needed
to provide my customers
(and myself) a reasonable, competitive alternative to Windows.
Killing off such a step forward for Red Hat users with a vague "I'm sure
there will be ..."
seems short-sighted and/or selfish (of Red Hat).
Hey, I'm out here trying to promote both Red Hat and Linux and it hurts
to get cut-off at the knees.
Now, if this IS being addressed, let us know. If not, please, can we
address this soon.
R.Parr, RHCE
Temporal Arts
1:34 p.m.
Randall J. Parr (RParr(a)TemporalArts.COM) said:
Yes, there are but they are limited and/or carry with them
considerable
problems/conflicts.
The very problems/conflicts which Fedora was really starting to solve
(for me).
Fedora Linux (http://www.fedora.us/) provided a framework for the
posting of any packages. I don't see how it would be impossible for
an external third party repository to use the same structure and
framework.
Killing off such a step forward for Red Hat users with a vague
"I'm sure
there will be ..."
seems short-sighted and/or selfish (of Red Hat).
Well, to put it a different way, I personally feel (warning: Not Speaking
for Red Hat), that it's better for the success of open source and Red Hat
for Red Hat not to be sued into oblivion. :) I may be biased, though.
And, from a legal standpoint, Red Hat just can't be providing such software.
Bill
3:43 p.m.
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Randall J. Parr (RParr(a)TemporalArts.COM) said:
>Yes, there are but they are limited and/or carry with them considerable
>problems/conflicts.
>The very problems/conflicts which Fedora was really starting to solve
>(for me).
>
>
Fedora Linux (http://www.fedora.us/) provided a framework for the
posting of any packages. I don't see how it would be impossible for
an external third party repository to use the same structure and
framework.
Then why didn't Red Hat just use the framework / structure. Did you have
to neuter the current project?
>Killing off such a step forward for Red Hat users with a vague
"I'm sure
>there will be ..."
>seems short-sighted and/or selfish (of Red Hat).
>
>
Well, to put it a different way, I personally feel (warning: Not Speaking
for Red Hat), that it's better for the success of open source and Red Hat
for Red Hat not to be sued into oblivion. :) I may be biased, though.
And, from a legal standpoint, Red Hat just can't be providing such software.
I, as a shareholder, do not want Red Hat sued into oblivion. I don't
want it sued as all. I appreciate that Red Hat can not appear support
software which carries legal risks (I quess I should say real risks as
opposed to SCO risks).
BUT people on the Red Hat lists (incl many Red Hat employees) have taken
to saying the lack of such software is not *really* a problem because
you can just go grab it at Fedora (or freshrpms, etc.). Yes, there are
repository conflicts, etc. but Fedora is providing a solution for that
as well. Only you've now absorbed the best such option into Red Hat thus
rendering it unable to solve these problems any more. And (here's my
primary point) you did so without providing or arranging for any
alternative that does solve the problem.
I'm frustrated. It seems every time we start to get close to solid,
useable, way to build/expand/maintain a full-featured Red Hat
workstation/desktop it is snatched away.
R.Parr, RCHE
Temporal Arts
4:54 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
repository conflicts, etc. but Fedora is providing a solution for
that
as well. Only you've now absorbed the best such option into Red Hat thus
rendering it unable to solve these problems any more. And (here's my
primary point) you did so without providing or arranging for any
alternative that does solve the problem.
Fedora being US based is not a solution and was not a solution for those
non US citizens entitled to use some things that US citizens are forbidden.
Its no different to everything else - multiregion DVD players are the norm
except in the USA, but that doesn't mean US citizens can safely import
them or that the ability to import them 'solves the problem'
For non US citizens solving the problem means solving it outside the USA
without US companies help.
I'm frustrated. It seems every time we start to get close to
solid,
useable, way to build/expand/maintain a full-featured Red Hat
workstation/desktop it is snatched away.
If parts of your system are in violation of local law they are neither
usable nor a solution.
The internet exists because people had the guts to refuse more featureful
proprietary networks and put up with the inconvenience of change, the
move to commodity open audio and video protocols depends on and will follow
the same paths.
There is more to doing the right thing than instant gratification.
Alan
5:11 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Em Seg, 2003-09-22 Ã s 18:54, Alan Cox escreveu:
Fedora being US based is not a solution and was not a solution for
those
non US citizens entitled to use some things that US citizens are forbidden.
Its no different to everything else - multiregion DVD players are the norm
except in the USA, but that doesn't mean US citizens can safely import
them or that the ability to import them 'solves the problem'
For non US citizens solving the problem means solving it outside the USA
without US companies help.
It's very ironic. The country that claims to be "free", where people
**think** that have freedom to do anything they want, can't use a
inofensive DVD disc made on another region, or can't listen to MP3
music.
I would like to know when the american people will wake up, and see that
they are made from the same sh*t that other people around the world, and
that AMERICANS ARE NOT FREE.
The CIA read your emails, listen to your phone calls. Your TV says what
you have to think, to use, to watch, to dress, to eat, to drink, to
vote. You are nothing but poor robots that thinks that control the
world.
It's sad to say, but like all the people on the world, I loved to see
the two WTC towers going down.
Regards,
Thiago
p.s. I'm glad that I was not born on the USA. I have culture and
intelligence. Nobody says what I have to do.
5:19 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Monday 22 September 2003 15:11, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
It's sad to say, but like all the people on the world, I loved to
see
the two WTC towers going down.
Regards,
Thiago
p.s. I'm glad that I was not born on the USA. I have culture and
intelligence. Nobody says what I have to do.
Please keep this kind of crap off the list. The friends/families of all
those lost in the two towers (VERY VERY many of them were NOT American
Citizens) do not appreciate such ignorant comments.
--
Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
http://geek.j2solutions.net
Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)
Was I helpful? Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating
6:14 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 22 September 2003 15:11, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
> It's sad to say, but like all the people on the world, I loved to see
> the two WTC towers going down.
>
>
> Regards,
> Thiago
>
> p.s. I'm glad that I was not born on the USA. I have culture and
> intelligence. Nobody says what I have to do.
Please keep this kind of crap off the list. The friends/families of all
those lost in the two towers (VERY VERY many of them were NOT American
Citizens) do not appreciate such ignorant comments.
I agree, I didn't know anyone involved, but I felt for the people who
were, furthermore this tosser should be removed from this list.
We dont need its type around here....or anywhere for that matter.
--
Regards,
Res
Network Administrator
Postmaster / Abusemster / Flamemaster
http://www.ausics.net Australian Hosting Services
5:20 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
wow... talk about instigating stuff.
You are entitled to your opinions obviously, and so am I. But, please
don't bring your political beliefs on this list. I was there when the
towers went down, and I was there afterwards.. I helped with the clean
up.. until you've picked up an arm, a leg, a hand or a head of a man
from rubble, you have no idea what the madness was all about.
Death is death, whether in America or in any other country. You pissing
people off with your statements will not resolve anything. The members
of this list did nothing to hurt you, we didn't say anything to bring
back painful memories.. please do the same for us. I really don't see
what you wanted to achieve with the email.. but please don't do it
again. It really doesn't help the project any.
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 17:11, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
Em Seg, 2003-09-22 Ã s 18:54, Alan Cox escreveu:
> Fedora being US based is not a solution and was not a solution for those
> non US citizens entitled to use some things that US citizens are forbidden.
> Its no different to everything else - multiregion DVD players are the norm
> except in the USA, but that doesn't mean US citizens can safely import
> them or that the ability to import them 'solves the problem'
>
> For non US citizens solving the problem means solving it outside the USA
> without US companies help.
It's very ironic. The country that claims to be "free", where people
**think** that have freedom to do anything they want, can't use a
inofensive DVD disc made on another region, or can't listen to MP3
music.
I would like to know when the american people will wake up, and see that
they are made from the same sh*t that other people around the world, and
that AMERICANS ARE NOT FREE.
The CIA read your emails, listen to your phone calls. Your TV says what
you have to think, to use, to watch, to dress, to eat, to drink, to
vote. You are nothing but poor robots that thinks that control the
world.
It's sad to say, but like all the people on the world, I loved to see
the two WTC towers going down.
Regards,
Thiago
p.s. I'm glad that I was not born on the USA. I have culture and
intelligence. Nobody says what I have to do.
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
--
Vidyut Luther <vid(a)linuxpowered.com>
Linuxpowered
5:26 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
[snip HUGE flame]
I have culture and intelligence.
You hide it well.
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
5:34 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Please remember not to feed the trolls.
--
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher i.pilcher(a)comcast.net
========================================================================
5:38 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Monday 22 September 2003 06:11 pm, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
The CIA read your emails, listen to your phone calls.
You're obviously confused. It is the FBI, not the CIA, that reads my email
and listens to my phone calls.
The CIA reads *your* email and listens to *your* phone calls.
I'd clear up the rest but I've probably already exceeded your attention span
and vocabulary.
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3rc2 (GNU/Linux)
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=lqHl
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7:55 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
Em Seg, 2003-09-22 Ã s 18:54, Alan Cox escreveu:
>Fedora being US based is not a solution and was not a solution for those
>non US citizens entitled to use some things that US citizens are forbidden.
>Its no different to everything else - multiregion DVD players are the norm
>except in the USA, but that doesn't mean US citizens can safely import
>them or that the ability to import them 'solves the problem'
>
>For non US citizens solving the problem means solving it outside the USA
>without US companies help.
>
>
It's very ironic. The country that claims to be "free", where people
**think** that have freedom to do anything they want, can't use a
inofensive DVD disc made on another region, or can't listen to MP3
music.
The problem doesn't lie in the wake of freedom for mp3 and DVD playing.
The problem lies in the "Art" of making a buck from an idea or a technology.
These ideal for paying welfare to someone's thoughts or works well
beyond the actual worth if the idea or the tecnology is simply called
greed and intellectual property.
You can look at the richest people in america and see that most of them
were college dropouts. But they still claim intellectual property.
The masses are set on commercialism and go along with the flow that
corporatism has levereged against the user that demands a free operating
system. This is where ogg format. the Linux kernel, the GPL licensing
and the forward movement of Linux is here for. SCO and other companies
that demand money for ideas are the trouble in our mesh. Intelligence
and Freedom are very important and are being infringed upon.
But like walking in a "bad neighborhood" we have to watch out for the
ones that take money from others by force. Linux and the community are
trying to stay out of the "bad neighborhoods".
We all have our countries of origin and all have different laws. Of
course this list is not to discuss the political differences, just the
free operating system for computers.
Jim
8:26 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
I realize this is tall order, but I think taking a page out of Microsoft
book could be a good idea here. I use both Windows and Linux. I
absolutely hate Windows Media Player, and would use an open source Media
player in a flash. I tried Zinf, good but lacks some important features.
Its cross platform too, so that is good. (By the way, any chances of
including that in Fedora?). If Fedora/redhat could sponsor the
making/porting of a very good player for Windows and Linux, People could
get used to vorbis if it is used by default, and with all the right
messages everywhere, we could encourage people to use ogg. Once ogg
becomes entrenched, i.e, hardware companies are bringing out all their
players with vorbis support, Microsoft wil have no choice but to ship
vorbis. It is BSD licensed like the TCP/IP stack, so no problem.
This would also be a good way to get a good player on Linux too. Sorry,
but Mplayer, Xine et al are not good. They work well, but are not good.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Jim - 815 beta
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 2:55 AM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
Em Seg, 2003-09-22 Ã s 18:54, Alan Cox escreveu:
>Fedora being US based is not a solution and was not a solution for
those
>non US citizens entitled to use some things that US citizens are
forbidden.
>Its no different to everything else - multiregion DVD players are
the
norm
>except in the USA, but that doesn't mean US citizens can
safely import
>them or that the ability to import them 'solves the problem'
>
>For non US citizens solving the problem means solving it outside the
USA
>without US companies help.
>
>
It's very ironic. The country that claims to be "free", where people
**think** that have freedom to do anything they want, can't use a
inofensive DVD disc made on another region, or can't listen to MP3
music.
The problem doesn't lie in the wake of freedom for mp3 and DVD playing.
The problem lies in the "Art" of making a buck from an idea or a
technology.
These ideal for paying welfare to someone's thoughts or works well
beyond the actual worth if the idea or the tecnology is simply called
greed and intellectual property.
You can look at the richest people in america and see that most of them
were college dropouts. But they still claim intellectual property.
The masses are set on commercialism and go along with the flow that
corporatism has levereged against the user that demands a free operating
system. This is where ogg format. the Linux kernel, the GPL licensing
and the forward movement of Linux is here for. SCO and other companies
that demand money for ideas are the trouble in our mesh. Intelligence
and Freedom are very important and are being infringed upon.
But like walking in a "bad neighborhood" we have to watch out for the
ones that take money from others by force. Linux and the community are
trying to stay out of the "bad neighborhoods".
We all have our countries of origin and all have different laws. Of
course this list is not to discuss the political differences, just the
free operating system for computers.
Jim
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
9:48 p.m.
New subject: cross-platform software - ogg push (was freedom ...yes or no)
Zinf is a good program. There is another one that is similar that is
called freemp3player. It works great for windows also. Some features of
zinf are more decent than what xmms offers. A program like zinf for
linux would be a decent program to have for Linux.
I tried to get some music interest friends interested in ogg format.
Most of them like mp3, since it is familiar to them and does about the
same job. Windows users like the ability to make compilation discs from
their collected mp3s. There is not a lot of cd burning programs that
surround the windows environment. Adding this capability to be common
for windows users might aid in the adoption of ogg for the large portion
of users.
I like having the ability to rip either ogg or mp3 formatted files to
discs for compilation cds. I'm glad that there are readily available and
efficient ways to do it on Linux.
Selling ogg and pushing Linux in the same breath seems to be
counterproductive on my ventures. Even though free were used for both
technologies. All of the windows based "free" software even makes it a
harder sell.
Jim
Maynard Kuona wrote:
I realize this is tall order, but I think taking a page out of
Microsoft
book could be a good idea here. I use both Windows and Linux. I
absolutely hate Windows Media Player, and would use an open source Media
player in a flash. I tried Zinf, good but lacks some important features.
Its cross platform too, so that is good. (By the way, any chances of
including that in Fedora?). If Fedora/redhat could sponsor the
making/porting of a very good player for Windows and Linux, People could
get used to vorbis if it is used by default, and with all the right
messages everywhere, we could encourage people to use ogg. Once ogg
becomes entrenched, i.e, hardware companies are bringing out all their
players with vorbis support, Microsoft wil have no choice but to ship
vorbis. It is BSD licensed like the TCP/IP stack, so no problem.
This would also be a good way to get a good player on Linux too. Sorry,
but Mplayer, Xine et al are not good. They work well, but are not good.
--
Is it possible that software is not like anything else, that it is meant to
be discarded: that the whole point is to always see it as a soap bubble?
10:19 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:26:00AM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
This would also be a good way to get a good player on Linux too. Sorry,
but Mplayer, Xine et al are not good. They work well, but are not good.
Out of curiosity, what does "work well, but are not good" mean?
Emmanuel
4:13 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but they
are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the system
(KDE/GNOME). They do have frontends for KDE/GNOME, but these are usually
half baked, and imcomplete. I think there is more to a media player than
just playing video's and mp3s.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Emmanuel Seyman
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:19 AM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:26:00AM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
This would also be a good way to get a good player on Linux too.
Sorry,
but Mplayer, Xine et al are not good. They work well, but are not
good.
Out of curiosity, what does "work well, but are not good" mean?
Emmanuel
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4:23 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Maynard Kuona wrote :
Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but
they
are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the system
(KDE/GNOME). They do have frontends for KDE/GNOME, but these are usually
half baked, and imcomplete. I think there is more to a media player than
just playing video's and mp3s.
Then just try out totem, it's a nice GNOME2 media player with plenty of
functionalities and neat stuff like movie thumbnails in nautilus etc.
Really good integration, and the good news is that it has the potential to
make it into the main distribution as it can also use gstreamer as a
backend (it uses xine-lib by default), which is completely modular, already
shipped in Red Hat Linux, and to which additional codecs can easily be
added (think mp3, ffmpeg...).
Matthias
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4:30 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Totem is nice. Very nice. I like it. But Gstreamer is not yet complete,
and Totem does lack some config options. It is coming up though. A year
ago, I wouldn't have touched it. But this stems from the fact that video
is simpler than audio to make a nice interface for. That is why totem,
Gstreamer player and Lumiere look very similar.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Matthias Saou
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:23 AM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Maynard Kuona wrote :
Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but
they
are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the
system
(KDE/GNOME). They do have frontends for KDE/GNOME, but these are
usually
half baked, and imcomplete. I think there is more to a media player
than
just playing video's and mp3s.
Then just try out totem, it's a nice GNOME2 media player with plenty of
functionalities and neat stuff like movie thumbnails in nautilus etc.
Really good integration, and the good news is that it has the potential
to
make it into the main distribution as it can also use gstreamer as a
backend (it uses xine-lib by default), which is completely modular,
already
shipped in Red Hat Linux, and to which additional codecs can easily be
added (think mp3, ffmpeg...).
Matthias
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10:49 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Sorry Matthis, I lost the previous message:)
Matthias Saou wrote:
Maynard Kuona wrote :
>Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but they
>are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
>is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the system
That is OPINION. I like Xine's UI. I also like the ogle gui. I relly
like that I'm not forced to use it. A replacement could be developed
that I might like better. I have no problem deling with multiple
toolkits. I work with GNOME, GTK+, Motif, and Xt based apps all the
time. I have NO problems using any of them.
I acutally find Win32 and MFC apps BORING, especially MFC.
I also have a lot of time with text only systems, and again had no
problems, as well as the Atari ST, and Amiga GUI's. I often miss the
varitey of those days.
Imagine of every car you sat in looked the same inside (they already
look trhe same outside). Sure some general guidelines, like making the
spedometer clearly visable and easily readable, but is the speedo round,
arced, verticle, or horizontal? My new vehicle, '00 Mercury, has a round
one, my old car, a '70 Cadillac, has it horizontal. I used to switch
between an automatic on the column, one on the floor, and a manual on
the floor. Am I that unusual in that I had no problems?
>(KDE/GNOME). They do have frontends for KDE/GNOME, but these are
usually
>half baked, and imcomplete. I think there is more to a media player than
They do what the developer wants them to. If you want more, write it.
Take the front end you like best and add the missing features. That the
bueaty of open source. Cannot write? Pay someone to write it for you.
Try getting the code for Windows Media Player or WinAmp to add a feature
you want, or remove one you don't like.
-Thomas
5:11 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 11:49, Thomas Dodd wrote:
Sorry Matthis, I lost the previous message:)
Matthias Saou wrote:
> Maynard Kuona wrote :
>>Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but they
>>are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
>>is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the system
That is OPINION. I like Xine's UI. I also like the ogle gui. I relly
like that I'm not forced to use it. A replacement could be developed
that I might like better. I have no problem deling with multiple
toolkits. I work with GNOME, GTK+, Motif, and Xt based apps all the
time. I have NO problems using any of them.
It's great to have variety, but there are some technical issues with
apps that don't use the standard toolkits that lead us to prefer
toolkit-using apps as the defaults.
Some of these are a11y, i18n, etc.:
http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/desktop/defaults.html
Anyway, just something to keep in mind.
Havoc
9:34 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Havoc Pennington wrote:
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 11:49, Thomas Dodd wrote:
>>>Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but they
>>>are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all. Xine's UI
>>>is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration into the system
>
>That is OPINION. I like Xine's UI. I also like the ogle gui. I relly
>like that I'm not forced to use it. A replacement could be developed
>that I might like better. I have no problem deling with multiple
>toolkits. I work with GNOME, GTK+, Motif, and Xt based apps all the
>time. I have NO problems using any of them.
It's great to have variety, but there are some technical issues with
apps that don't use the standard toolkits that lead us to prefer
toolkit-using apps as the defaults.
"prefered" apps is fine by me. I'm not forced to use the
"prefered" one.
I can pick the one I want to use, just like I can choose a kernel.org or
-ac kernel, or run mozilla 1.2 when Red Hat supported 1.0.x.
The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad. The
fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
like variety, and have no problems dealing with it. I dislike the
"everything looks the same" world of M$ and Mac. Se previous message and
discussion of car interiors.
-Thomas
9:38 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad. The
fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
like variety, and have no problems dealing with it. I dislike the
"everything looks the same" world of M$ and Mac. Se previous message and
discussion of car interiors.
One problem:
If you're disabled in some way then it can become very difficult to use
interfaces that have an array of different knobs and dials.
Please remember that there are a lot of people using linux who cannot
see, cannot use their fingers, etc.
Just b/c you can does not mean you have to be a chauvinist for the
en-abled.
-sv
1:55 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
seth vidal wrote:
>The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad.
The
>fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
>like variety, and have no problems dealing with it. I dislike the
>"everything looks the same" world of M$ and Mac. Se previous message and
>discussion of car interiors.
One problem:
This is not the point of the previous message.
I was refering to the complaint that Xine and other apps had strange
interfaces, and that that is not so bad. Diversity is good. Again being
different is inherently neither bad nor good. But it can be godd in some
situations. I like OO.org, but wish it didn't resemble M$'s products so
much. Same with Evolution.
I dislike that the default keyboard short cuts in GNOME follow M$. Some
for Mozilla. I have had to re-learn them because they are different than
what I know.
Is vi bad because it uses a different interface? How about emacs? Should
the only text editor UI match Notepad/Wordpad? The editor form MS-DOS?
Or is it ok that emacs uses Ctrl-A to move to the beginning of the like
instead of <HOME>? how should I delete a character? 'x' in command mode
(vi), Ctrl-D (emacs), or <Del>?
Is it OK that mozilla supports two?
Now to your concerns.
If you're disabled in some way then it can become very difficult
to use
interfaces that have an array of different knobs and dials.
So you use a different interface? A different app? Can I use
mozilla/thunderbird or must I use Evolution? I don't like Evolution's
UI. I like Pine. Mozilla is OK. You might like a different one.
Please remember that there are a lot of people using linux who
cannot
see, cannot use their fingers, etc.
So ask/help the developers of the alternatives to allow for those
situations. But I like lots of different knobs and dials(you should see
my home theater). Don't take them away because someone might have
trouble with them.
Just b/c you can does not mean you have to be a chauvinist for the
en-abled.
So my choices for variety should be limited/removed because someone
might have trouble with it? I'm all for equal rights, equal protection,
and accessability. But must everything be so? But don't protect someone
else's right by restricting mine. Back to cars. My car has the dimmer
switch on the floor. That means you my have 2 legs to drive it at night.
Today you cannot by a new vehicle like that. Should I be forced top
move/add a column dimmer so a one legged person can drive it at night?
Should all manual transission be banned since one legged people cannot
operate the clutch?
Lets go back to the previous topic. Add, allow for all the handicapped
user you want. That's fine.
-Thomas
4:37 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad. The
fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
It tends to make it bad when you measure it in terms of convenience for
accessibility tools (custom widget people never seem to get around to adding
the ATK hooks) and also standards compliance. Actually doing it *right* is
lacking in many but not all of the "we own your desktop" UI apps.
From a Red Hat point of view the lack of accessibility is a *big
deal*, and
I suspect as a lot of the readers of this list get older they'll
begin to
find some of the accessibility stuff useful too.
5:13 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Alan Cox wrote:
>The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad.
The
>fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
It tends to make it bad when you measure it in terms of convenience for
accessibility tools (custom widget people never seem to get around to adding
the ATK hooks) and also standards compliance. Actually doing it *right* is
lacking in many but not all of the "we own your desktop" UI apps.
So if I write an app using Xt (or Motif) it's automatically bad?
And I guess writing with raw X11 (no toolkit) is right out.
>From a Red Hat point of view the lack of accessibility is a *big
deal*, and
I suspect as a lot of the readers of this list get older they'll begin to
find some of the accessibility stuff useful too.
I never said "accessibility" was bad. (Although it's a hideous name,
brought about by the politicaly correct types. Ranks right up there with
"intellectual property" to me.)
Go back to the start.
Maynard Kuona wrote :
Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but
they are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all.
Xine's UI is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration
into the system
That's what started this. I like Xine's UI. Try a few skins, or create a
new one. Hell a Bluecurve-like skin would be fine. I won't use it, but
others would. Even make it the defult.
I also don't like overly integrated apps. Sometimes they are good and
make sense, but often they don't. Integrating the IE module with every
app and the window manager has caused a lot of problems for M$. M$ Money
and Word even used the IE module.
But when many(most) people talk about poor integration, they mean it
doesn't use the same widgets or colors or something. So they want the M$
(MFC/VB especially) world where every single app looks the same. Only
one radio button, scrollbar, <pick a widget> is used. This make things
dull and boring to me.
That's something I liked about GTK+ and Enlightenment. I could theme
almost every widget as I liked. I could make E look nearly identical to
the Atari STe. When I got bored with the look of things I changed them.
I always want the ability have per application themes. I like that
different apps look/behave different.
Just like I liked that different models of cars looked/felt different
inside. Now different makes do, but nearly every Ford uses the same
dials, buttons, and indicators. So if I sat you in a Tarus, Focus, or
F150 you probably couldn't tell which it was. They look the same.
-Thomas
6:44 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 18:13, Thomas Dodd wrote:
Alan Cox wrote:
>>The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad. The
>>fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly I
>
> It tends to make it bad when you measure it in terms of convenience for
> accessibility tools (custom widget people never seem to get around to adding
> the ATK hooks) and also standards compliance. Actually doing it *right* is
> lacking in many but not all of the "we own your desktop" UI apps.
So if I write an app using Xt (or Motif) it's automatically bad?
And I guess writing with raw X11 (no toolkit) is right out.
It's "automatically bad" in the sense that it won't look the same as
most of the other apps. If that doesn't bother you or your users, then
there's no problem. However, most people who do usability studies will
tell you that consistency is good for the majority of users.
Some people consider the movement towards usability and accessibility to
be a "dumbing-down" of the user interface.
In my opinion, there is a balance between usability and features that is
sometimes hard to find. Speaking for myself, I want my software to be
used by the widest possible audience. That sometimes means placing the
needs of the less technically inclined majority over the needs of the
power users.
>>From a Red Hat point of view the lack of accessibility is a
*big deal*, and
> I suspect as a lot of the readers of this list get older they'll begin to
> find some of the accessibility stuff useful too.
I never said "accessibility" was bad. (Although it's a hideous name,
brought about by the politicaly correct types. Ranks right up there with
"intellectual property" to me.)
Go back to the start.
Maynard Kuona wrote :
>
> Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but
> they are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all.
> Xine's UI is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration
> into the system
That's what started this. I like Xine's UI. Try a few skins, or create a
new one. Hell a Bluecurve-like skin would be fine. I won't use it, but
others would. Even make it the defult.
I also don't like overly integrated apps. Sometimes they are good and
make sense, but often they don't. Integrating the IE module with every
app and the window manager has caused a lot of problems for M$. M$ Money
and Word even used the IE module.
But when many(most) people talk about poor integration, they mean it
doesn't use the same widgets or colors or something. So they want the M$
(MFC/VB especially) world where every single app looks the same. Only
one radio button, scrollbar, <pick a widget> is used. This make things
dull and boring to me.
Looking at things in a different way, one could say that a good UI
*should* be dull and boring. Why should the buttons and scrollbars look
different? When someone buys a button-down shirt, they want all the
buttons to look the same, right?
It all depends on why one uses a computer. Is the point to get work
done or is the point to configure things? If the point is to get work
done, then the less time the user spends thinking about the UI, the
better.
That's something I liked about GTK+ and Enlightenment. I could
theme
almost every widget as I liked. I could make E look nearly identical to
the Atari STe. When I got bored with the look of things I changed them.
I always want the ability have per application themes. I like that
different apps look/behave different.
Unfortunately, the complexity that attracted you to Enlightenment is the
same complexity that scares less technically inclined users away.
Now I'm not saying that we have to aim for the lowest common
denominator. All I'm saying is that UI designers have to take into
account the needs of their target audience. Enlightenment is obviously
targeted at a technically inclined user base. That's great if that's
what you're looking for, but I think in general most of us want to hit a
larger target.
Cheers,
Brent
Just like I liked that different models of cars looked/felt different
inside. Now different makes do, but nearly every Ford uses the same
dials, buttons, and indicators. So if I sat you in a Tarus, Focus, or
F150 you probably couldn't tell which it was. They look the same.
-Thomas
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4:15 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Brent Fox wrote:
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 18:13, Thomas Dodd wrote:
>So if I write an app using Xt (or Motif) it's automatically bad?
>And I guess writing with raw X11 (no toolkit) is right out.
Some people consider the movement towards usability and accessibility to
be a "dumbing-down" of the user interface.
I'm one. OS-X and Win-XP are extreme examples.
>But when many(most) people talk about poor integration, they mean
it
>doesn't use the same widgets or colors or something. So they want the M$
>(MFC/VB especially) world where every single app looks the same. Only
>one radio button, scrollbar, <pick a widget> is used. This make things
>dull and boring to me.
Looking at things in a different way, one could say that a good UI
*should* be dull and boring. Why should the buttons and scrollbars look
different? When someone buys a button-down shirt, they want all the
buttons to look the same, right?
But if I by 10 shirt, should all ten have the same buttons? Clear
buttons work for most shirts, but I like the buttons to match the shirt.
Some of my white shirts have solid white buttons, some have a pearl
look, and some a marble look. Often the cut or fabric determin which
looks best. I have seen shirts with contrasting colors. Not my style,
but some like it. If Red Hat made shirts, would they all have clear buttons?
It all depends on why one uses a computer. Is the point to get work
done or is the point to configure things? If the point is to get work
Configure things so you can get work done. But if 2 weeks later I don't
like something, I can change it again, until I find what I like best.
But I could leave it at the defaults and never change anything. My wife
is like that. She uses Photoshop, Freehand, and Draw. They have some
very complex configuration options. I've looked at the, and even changed
a few. She never even noticed they were there. She never bothered to
look. I tweaked a few things that made my use easier, but she still uses
the defauts. She's the professional. But when I use the apps, it's for
me. I want them to work the best for me, not just "good enough for most."
Unfortunately, the complexity that attracted you to Enlightenment is
the
same complexity that scares less technically inclined users away.
It's unfortunate that complexity scares people. But I don't buy it. They
by very complex devices, that they have no idea about. Look at a car.
They have some very complex systems. If you want you cna modify them to
behave in different ways. But you can still use the default setup and
just ignore all the complexity. The average driver doesn't even change
the oil anymore, but the ability to change the internals of the engine
is still there.
Now I'm not saying that we have to aim for the lowest common
denominator. All I'm saying is that UI designers have to take into
But that's the general trend. Poor dumb user cannot figure out how to
use a fork and a spoon so we'll just give them a spoon, and never serve
food that you need a fork to eat. Or maybe a spork, it's not as good as
both seperately, but it's good enough for most uses of a fork or a spoon.
account the needs of their target audience. Enlightenment is
obviously
targeted at a technically inclined user base. That's great if that's
what you're looking for, but I think in general most of us want to hit a
larger target.
So when E was the GNOME wm, people couldn't figure out how to use it? I
never saw any one say E was to technical for them. I saw some who never
changed the defaults, but never anyone who thought it too technical.
-Thomas
9:22 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Thomas Dodd wrote:
> Unfortunately, the complexity that attracted you to Enlightenment
is the
> same complexity that scares less technically inclined users away.
It's unfortunate that complexity scares people. But I don't buy it. They
by very complex devices, that they have no idea about. Look at a car.
They have some very complex systems. If you want you cna modify them to
behave in different ways. But you can still use the default setup and
just ignore all the complexity. The average driver doesn't even change
the oil anymore, but the ability to change the internals of the engine
is still there.
You need to do a month taking support phone calls. You will quickly
learn that cars and computers are very different to most people. People
get in cars and only really care about the speedometer, the gas gauge
and the red lights, the rest of the eye candy that designers put in they
ignore. On computers they dont know what parts are the important ones
and so they dont ignore any of the eye candy and get very confused and
angry.
By the way, you can change the system however YOU want.. Red Hat doesnt
stop that. THey do make the base interface a LCD than you though.
But that's the general trend. Poor dumb user cannot figure out how
to
use a fork and a spoon so we'll just give them a spoon, and never serve
food that you need a fork to eat. Or maybe a spork, it's not as good as
both seperately, but it's good enough for most uses of a fork or a spoon.
> account the needs of their target audience. Enlightenment is
obviously
> targeted at a technically inclined user base. That's great if that's
> what you're looking for, but I think in general most of us want to hit a
> larger target.
So when E was the GNOME wm, people couldn't figure out how to use it? I
never saw any one say E was to technical for them. I saw some who never
changed the defaults, but never anyone who thought it too technical.
You didnt take RH support phone calls did you? You only see what people
post to mailing lists and those people are usually technically in the
second to third sigma of users. 66%-95% of all users don't know much on
computers beyond what they have to get a browser, an email client, and
an editor up. Until there are universal computer licenses required
before you can drive the 'Information SuperHighway', I doubt that will
change. It is the last 5% of users of computers these days that know
about mailinglists, etc etc. It is about the last <1% that know about
what eye-candy is useful, and what is cruft.
The issue is that these numbers have changed greatly over the last 20
years. 20 years ago, the <1% were 95% of all computer users. 10 years
ago they 25%, 5 years ago they were probably 5-10%, and now they are
becoming a small subset.
--
Stephen John Smoogen smoogen(a)lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Labrador CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 5-8058
Ta-03 SM-261 MailStop P208 DP 17U Los Alamos, NM 87545
-- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka --
10:06 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
You need to do a month taking support phone calls. You will quickly
learn that cars and computers are very different to most people.
What? But 95% of people are totally incapable of properly using either
of them :-P
10:41 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Stephen Smoogen wrote:
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Thomas Dodd wrote:
>>Unfortunately, the complexity that attracted you to Enlightenment is the
>>same complexity that scares less technically inclined users away.
>
>It's unfortunate that complexity scares people. But I don't buy it. They
>by very complex devices, that they have no idea about. Look at a car.
>They have some very complex systems. If you want you cna modify them to
>behave in different ways. But you can still use the default setup and
>just ignore all the complexity. The average driver doesn't even change
>the oil anymore, but the ability to change the internals of the engine
>is still there.
>
You need to do a month taking support phone calls. You will quickly
learn that cars and computers are very different to most people. People
I'd love to hear some of the issues. Most non technical users I know,
wouldn't touch the settings, or dare tinker. So whatever the default is,
they stick with. Look how many Windoze user change the default install
directory for an app, or rearrange the "Start" menu.
get in cars and only really care about the speedometer, the gas gauge
and the red lights, the rest of the eye candy that designers put in they
ignore. On computers they dont know what parts are the important ones
and so they dont ignore any of the eye candy and get very confused and
angry.
You didnt take RH support phone calls did you? You only see what
people
post to mailing lists and those people are usually technically in the
Again, transcripts of some calls would be interesting.
an editor up. Until there are universal computer licenses required
before you can drive the 'Information SuperHighway', I doubt that will
That's the first sensible idea I've heard yet :)
-Thomas
3:45 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 11:41, Thomas Dodd wrote:
Stephen Smoogen wrote:
I'd love to hear some of the issues.
Visit http://rinkworks.com/stupid/
Once you're done reading, consider that many of those calls are commonly
received just about every day by telephone tech people.
8:03 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
I do not have a problem with Xine and all using their own interfaces per
se. I started this thread and thought I should clarify. I think I would
much prefer stuff like file selection be done with either GTK or Qt, or
if it was possible, they could use the fileselector of whatever
environment they are being used from. The UIs are sometimes very ugly
too, which is why I do prefer they use one of the dominant toolkits, GTK
or Qt, or wxwindows.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Dodd
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 12:13 AM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
Alan Cox wrote:
>The point being, toolkit choice does not make an app ugly or bad.
The
>fact that it looks/acts different also doesn't make it bad. Personaly
I
It tends to make it bad when you measure it in terms of convenience
for
accessibility tools (custom widget people never seem to get around to
adding
the ATK hooks) and also standards compliance. Actually doing it
*right* is
lacking in many but not all of the "we own your desktop" UI
apps.
So if I write an app using Xt (or Motif) it's automatically bad?
And I guess writing with raw X11 (no toolkit) is right out.
>From a Red Hat point of view the lack of accessibility is a *big
deal*, and
I suspect as a lot of the readers of this list get older they'll
begin
to
find some of the accessibility stuff useful too.
I never said "accessibility" was bad. (Although it's a hideous name,
brought about by the politicaly correct types. Ranks right up there with
"intellectual property" to me.)
Go back to the start.
Maynard Kuona wrote :
Xine, mplayer, VLC. They work well, i.e., show video and all, but
they are ugly, seem to use some arbitrary toolkit, if any at all.
Xine's UI is ugly, mplayers is ugly. They lack proper integration
into the system
That's what started this. I like Xine's UI. Try a few skins, or create a
new one. Hell a Bluecurve-like skin would be fine. I won't use it, but
others would. Even make it the defult.
I also don't like overly integrated apps. Sometimes they are good and
make sense, but often they don't. Integrating the IE module with every
app and the window manager has caused a lot of problems for M$. M$ Money
and Word even used the IE module.
But when many(most) people talk about poor integration, they mean it
doesn't use the same widgets or colors or something. So they want the M$
(MFC/VB especially) world where every single app looks the same. Only
one radio button, scrollbar, <pick a widget> is used. This make things
dull and boring to me.
That's something I liked about GTK+ and Enlightenment. I could theme
almost every widget as I liked. I could make E look nearly identical to
the Atari STe. When I got bored with the look of things I changed them.
I always want the ability have per application themes. I like that
different apps look/behave different.
Just like I liked that different models of cars looked/felt different
inside. Now different makes do, but nearly every Ford uses the same
dials, buttons, and indicators. So if I sat you in a Tarus, Focus, or
F150 you probably couldn't tell which it was. They look the same.
-Thomas
--
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http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
2:34 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences (the lack of freedom on the USA)
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Thiago Vinhas de Moraes wrote:
It's sad to say, but like all the people on the world, I loved to
see
the two WTC towers going down.
This is an absolutely disgusting and disturbing statement in
every way imaginable. To state publically that you personally
approved of the wholesale slaughtering of thousands of innocent
lives in one of the most gruesome acts of terror to happen within
our livetimes does not say much for you as a human being.
I'm disgusted enough by this to consider unsubscribing from this
list.
--
Mike A. Harris ftp://people.redhat.com/mharris
OS Systems Engineer - XFree86 maintainer - Red Hat
5:32 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Randall J. Parr wrote:
I'm frustrated. It seems every time we start to get close to
solid,
useable, way to build/expand/maintain a full-featured Red Hat
workstation/desktop it is snatched away.
I understand the Fedora people have their build system
software published, so anybody can easily create a 3rd
party repository of packages ...
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
11:36 p.m.
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 01:32, Rik van Riel wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Randall J. Parr wrote:
> I'm frustrated. It seems every time we start to get close to solid,
> useable, way to build/expand/maintain a full-featured Red Hat
> workstation/desktop it is snatched away.
I understand the Fedora people have their build system
software published, so anybody can easily create a 3rd
party repository of packages ...
Yes and us original fedora.us people have planned for this thing
beforehand - there *will* be a third party repository carrying the stuff
that was removed from fedora.us, maintained by non-US folks and under a
different name which will be kept 100% compatible with what comes out of
this new merged Fedora Project.
- Panu -
11:38 p.m.
New subject: Naming?#!???
This naming thing is driving me crazy. In terms of the final product,
not the present beta, what is this thing that is installed on the
computer going to be called? Can it just be referred to as Fedora? I
mean, I don't understand (call me dense if you like - or even if you
don't) if Fedora Project is this beta process or the actual distro name.
Or is the actual distro called Fedora Core. How does one refer to the
final disto in print? This is a fair question, and an important one,
I'd say, as there are going to be loads of sites up within days making
reference to it. Not knowing is certainly holding me back.
And if it is no longer Red Hat Linux, I assume that means we can expect
changes to the Login Screen (which at present says "Red Hat Linux") and
the various installation screens. Who can I, you, or anyone ask for the
definitive answer?
Ooooooh, pretty please.... don't be coy with such basic info....
Ralston
12:08 a.m.
New subject: Naming?#!???
rg (grant(a)tuins.ac.jp) said:
This naming thing is driving me crazy. In terms of the final
product,
not the present beta, what is this thing that is installed on the
computer going to be called?
Fedora Core.
And if it is no longer Red Hat Linux, I assume that means we can
expect
changes to the Login Screen (which at present says "Red Hat Linux") and
the various installation screens.
Correct.
Bill
12:25 a.m.
New subject: Naming?#!???
Thanks Bill,
I guess I'm too set in my ways to get used to calling a Linux distro
"xxxxx Core." But if that is that, that is that. BUT please clarify
this one point.... If I am writing a set of directions, is it right to
say, "The Fedora Core Installation screens," "Fedora Core users,"
"If
you are switching from Mandrake Linux to Fedora Core...." and so on?
RG
Also, I assume that
rg (grant(a)tuins.ac.jp) said:
>This naming thing is driving me crazy. In terms of the final product,
>not the present beta, what is this thing that is installed on the
>computer going to be called?
>
>
Fedora Core.
>And if it is no longer Red Hat Linux, I assume that means we can expect
>changes to the Login Screen (which at present says "Red Hat Linux") and
>the various installation screens.
>
>
Correct.
Bill
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12:41 a.m.
New subject: Naming?#!???
It is my best guess that eventually it will be known as "Fedora Linux".
Where you will have "Fedora Core" with extras. Don't think "Core"
will
catch on although I do understand the implications and direction.
Michael Colligan
12:39 a.m.
New subject: Naming?#!???
Yes, I can't imagine anything called 'core' catching on. The idea that a
BSD based system might eventually emerge seems to encourage the present
distro to be called "Fedora Linux" and then, if there is, for example, a
BSD version in the future, that would be "Fedora BSD". That seems
logical. Core is not appealing to the general public - sounds
offputting - something that would just scare people away - like suddenly
insisting on calling an automobile a "human life form transportation
device." Who's going to go for that?!
I guess, the safest thing to do is just refer to the distro as "Fedora"
so as not to terrify newbies.
RG
Michael Colligan wrote:
It is my best guess that eventually it will be known as "Fedora
Linux".
Where you will have "Fedora Core" with extras. Don't think "Core"
will
catch on although I do understand the implications and direction.
Michael Colligan
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1:38 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
I had high hopes the Fedora repository and approach would expand and
gain
more wide spread use thus making it even easier to pull-together a fully
functional workstation/desktop.
I still hope that will happen
Red Hat hasn't wanted to or been able to deal with. The things
needed
to provide my customers
(and myself) a reasonable, competitive alternative to Windows
There is a difference between changing laws and breaking them. There are
many pieces of software that can't be used in some countries and the
framework exists to allow people to operate such repositories and others
to use them.
In the US there its a matter of changing the law or buying
packages including patent licenses.
1:48 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
I sometimes wish Redhat would just buy the license. It is becoming very
inconvenient for us. With fedora now merged with Redhat, we now have to
get these somewhere else. Can these not be hosted outside US, as a
temporary measure until the issue is resolved, because it needs to be. I
am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alan Cox
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:39 PM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of
...
I had high hopes the Fedora repository and approach would expand and
gain
more wide spread use thus making it even easier to pull-together a
fully
functional workstation/desktop.
I still hope that will happen
Red Hat hasn't wanted to or been able to deal with. The things
needed
to provide my customers
(and myself) a reasonable, competitive alternative to Windows
There is a difference between changing laws and breaking them. There are
many pieces of software that can't be used in some countries and the
framework exists to allow people to operate such repositories and others
to use them.
In the US there its a matter of changing the law or buying
packages including patent licenses.
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
1:57 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 08:48, Maynard Kuona wrote:
I sometimes wish Redhat would just buy the license. It is becoming
very
inconvenient for us. With fedora now merged with Redhat, we now have to
get these somewhere else. Can these not be hosted outside US, as a
temporary measure until the issue is resolved, because it needs to be. I
am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
Licensing is impossible due to the nature of the GPL. You cannot have a
situation where RH or Fedora can distribute the MP3 player, but but
anyone that copied the distribution and distributed it elsewhere
cannot. The GPL stipulates that there cannot be any additional
restrictions on distribution, so anything that requires royalties is
impossible to be compatible with the GPL.
Warren
1:59 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
I sometimes wish Redhat would just buy the license. It is becoming
very
inconvenient for us. With fedora now merged with Redhat, we now have to
Red Hat is a free software company.
am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's,
it is a
hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
If you see a business opportunity to sell legal mp3 codecs to people go do
it. You'll need to build from a non GPL player but you can even license
the player core code too.. for a fee.
2:02 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 08:48:43PM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
and get it there.
Emmanuel
2:21 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
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Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:02:58 +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
and get it there.
Or watch out for a repository that adheres to Fedora's packaging
guidelines.
- --
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4:30 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Michael Schwendt wrote :
> If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to
freshrpms.net
> and get it there.
Or watch out for a repository that adheres to Fedora's packaging
guidelines.
You seem to imply that freshrpms.net won't follow them... I've always
followed Red Hat's own practicises (as a lack of policies or guidelines),
and will continue following them, as that is a key element to clean
integration and compatibility.
BTW, just as a side note : What is currently known as Red Hat Linux doesn't
"adhere to Fedora's packaging guidelines" either. Time now to actually make
the "merge" happen in order to clean this all up, and I won't be the only
one participating and needed to adapt.
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.16 0.17 0.17
5:10 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
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Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:30:14 +0200, Matthias Saou wrote:
> > If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to
freshrpms.net
> > and get it there.
>
> Or watch out for a repository that adheres to Fedora's packaging
> guidelines.
You seem to imply that freshrpms.net won't follow them... I've always
followed Red Hat's own practicises (as a lack of policies or guidelines),
and will continue following them, as that is a key element to clean
integration and compatibility.
"Fedora" = fedora.us as long as there aren't any packaging guidelines
at fedora.redhat.com and as long as fedora.us will be the place where
[some] infrastructure is in place which allows for contributions from
the community. It will stay like that for some time.
With "packaging guidelines" I also refer to package submission and
release policies. The infamous second pair of eyes, for instance,
which takes another look at a new package before it gets published.
Policies which allow for an open release process. The interested user
can help with pre-release testing and can point out problems while a
new package is in the queue.
So far you've been doing a great job. Freshrpms is one of the first
repositories that is suggested when people are in search of add-on
packages. But Freshrpms.net doesn't scale because you are the single
person who prepares the packages.
side note : What is currently known as Red Hat Linux doesn't
"adhere to Fedora's packaging guidelines" either. Time now to actually
make
the "merge" happen in order to clean this all up, and I won't be the only
one participating and needed to adapt.
Yes, the actual merging work will get interesting.
- --
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3:32 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 08:48:43PM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
>am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
>hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
>it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
>
>
If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
and get it there.
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly and
easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
R.Parr, RHCE
Temporal Arts
3:33 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Monday 22 September 2003 13:32, Randall J. Parr wrote:
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to
tell my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto,
changeo, you can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really
don't do so well when I pass on to them the typical answer from these
lists of "just install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure
your modules.conf, maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works',
Yeah, right"
While freshrpms.net does "support" alsa, all the software they build
also supports OSS, and it's most often trivial to use OSS instead of
Alsa with their packages.
You should also look to 2.6, when everybody will be using Alsa IIRC...
--
Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
http://geek.j2solutions.net
Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)
Was I helpful? Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating
3:39 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
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I don't know what you're doing wrong, but I've never had to install
anything more than alsa-lib from FreshRPMs. I don't use the ALSA kernel
modules and MP3s play just fine on my RH9/FreshRPMs/Dag Wieers box. Yum
and apt have NEVER had a problem with this situation and I do my kernel
updates via up2date.
The only pain is running the nvidia-installer after the kernel upgrade.
~ Methinks your position may be uninformed on this issue.
Randall J. Parr wrote:
| Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
|
|> On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 08:48:43PM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
|>
|>
|>> am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
|>> hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
|>> it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
|>>
|>
|>
|> If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
|> and get it there.
|>
|>
|
| No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
| requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
| longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
|
| I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have constantly
| run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
| repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
| whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
|
| On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly and
| easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
| encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
| But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
|
| It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to tell
| my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
| can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
| when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
| install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
| maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
|
|
| R.Parr, RHCE
| Temporal Arts
|
|
| --
| fedora-test-list mailing list
| fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
| http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
- --
- ----------
Doug Stewart
Systems Administrator/Web Applications Developer
Lockheed Martin Advanced Technology Labs
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
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3:51 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 14:32, Randall J. Parr wrote:
>
>If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
>and get it there.
>
>
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
That's odd. I got *my* MP3 support from Fresh RPMs and I don't run ALSA.
Works just fine too. Granted, I did have to install *some* of the Fresh
RPMs ALSA packages, but the ALSA kernel was not one of them. I did it
all with their version of Synaptic - no problems at all.
I only recently switched to Fedora and even then, going between the two
was surprisingly simple. I thought it would be much worse than it was.
Also, kernel 2.6 uses ALSA, so we will all be using it sooner rather
than later.
Cheers,
Chris
--
====================================
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,
try orderin' someone else's dog around."
--Cowboy Wisdom
4:35 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Randall J. Parr wrote:
Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
> and get it there.
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
Already mentioned. no kernel changes are required.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to
tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
Add freshrpms to yum.conf
yum install xmms-mp3
presto, play mp3 files.
yum install ogle (xine)
prest, play DVDs (if you want add libdvdcss too)
-Thomas
5:11 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
The xmms-mp3 plug-in should work nicely though. Can also get it at
xmms.org, or prebuilt replacement xmms packages. I think since most of
us download Winamp anyway under Windows, xmms should not be a problem.
The Alsa 'problem' should sort of go away with kernel 2.6 as I hear.
That will now be in the kernel. Its always a hassle to get Alsa to work
properly..
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Randall J. Parr
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:32 PM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of
...
Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 08:48:43PM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
>am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is
a
>hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license
cost.
Is
>it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
>
>
If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
and get it there.
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly and
easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
R.Parr, RHCE
Temporal Arts
--
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4:35 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Randall J. Parr wrote :
>If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to
freshrpms.net
>and get it there.
>
>
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
Complete FUD. All applications linked against ALSA only require "alsa-lib"
(900kB once installed), and nothing more.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have
constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
Please report any problems, or else thay won't ever get fixed! I dare you
to find anyone who contacted me about an issue with freshrpms.net packages
that didn't get it solved almost immediately.
On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly
and
easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
This is not what is happening, although you may be right about "older"
releases, as I don't know what will happen regarding new packages for them.
I don't think fedora.us has ever completely supported 7.x series btw.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to
tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
Ouch. FUD, really. Otherwise, please report detailed problems.
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.05 0.11 0.14
4:44 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
I think your repository is really nice. Are you planning on doing
anything about co-operating with Fedora? Freshrpms was my first
experience with apt-get for Redhat, and a very good one too. Maybe a
little sub-channel would be in order. Something which basically carries
the packages Redhat can not carry. Like the CSS stuff, mp3 stuff, XVID
etc. Just so that people do not have to mix two entire repositories of
software. I am pretty sure Fedora cannot have dependencies with those
packages, so it should not break anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-test-list-admin(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-test-list-admin@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Matthias Saou
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:36 AM
To: fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of
...
Randall J. Parr wrote :
>If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to
freshrpms.net
>and get it there.
>
>
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net
stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
Complete FUD. All applications linked against ALSA only require
"alsa-lib"
(900kB once installed), and nothing more.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have
constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from
other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but
the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
Please report any problems, or else thay won't ever get fixed! I dare
you
to find anyone who contacted me about an issue with freshrpms.net
packages
that didn't get it solved almost immediately.
On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly
and
easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations
while
encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been
nice.
But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
This is not what is happening, although you may be right about "older"
releases, as I don't know what will happen regarding new packages for
them.
I don't think fedora.us has ever completely supported 7.x series btw.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to
tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto,
changeo,
you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really
don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
Ouch. FUD, really. Otherwise, please report detailed problems.
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.05 0.11 0.14
--
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4:59 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Maynard Kuona wrote :
I think your repository is really nice. Are you planning on doing
anything about co-operating with Fedora? Freshrpms was my first
experience with apt-get for Redhat, and a very good one too. Maybe a
little sub-channel would be in order. Something which basically carries
the packages Redhat can not carry. Like the CSS stuff, mp3 stuff, XVID
etc. Just so that people do not have to mix two entire repositories of
software. I am pretty sure Fedora cannot have dependencies with those
packages, so it should not break anything.
Isn't this what I've always done? Isn't this what I'll still be doing?
Yes. Yes.
I'm located in Spain/France, ayo.freshrpms.net (the main download server)
in Ireland and all the rest should be moving to The Netherlands (I'm still
looking for a server donation btw), so until software patents get through
in Europe, which may happen unfortunately but we are many fighting against,
there should still be what RHL/Fedora users need available as usual.
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.13 0.17 0.15
4:53 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Randall J. Parr wrote:
Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 08:48:43PM +0200, Maynard Kuona wrote:
>
>
>> am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
>> hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
>> it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
>>
>
>
> If the issue is mp3 support, you can just hop over to freshrpms.net
> and get it there.
>
>
No I can't. That is, in fact, my point. Most of the freshrpms.net stuff
requires ALSA, which requires kernel modules, which means I can no
longer "up2date" that system without breaking the sound, etc., etc.
Are you sure these were freshrpms packages. I'm using freshrpms packages
since redhat 8 and never had any problem with packages or with system
updates. These packages WORK with ALSA but all they require is alsa-lib.
I used them with standard RedHat kernels and they work very well.
I have tried, repeatedly to use freshrpms.net stuff but have constantly
run into the above problems and/or conflicts with other stuff from other
repositories. Yes, I can rebuild them or build them from source but the
whirlpools seems to just spin faster then.
Mixing repositories is problematic. It looks that fedora packages always
had an epoch set, and thus always looked "newer" then freshrpms
packages. But now, after they remove all video and mp3 packages there
will be less duplicates.
On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly and
easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to tell
my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
Again, never seen any such problems. Just ran apt-get xmms-mp3 mplayer
xine ... after distro installation and it just worked.
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5:42 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Fedora Packages have always been problematic with anything other than Red Hat
and fedora. which has made this tough as the alsa support at Fedora is
non-existant, i much prefer alsa for sound so i use freshrpms and only use
from fedora packages that i have wanted that were not availiable elsewhere.
and i have even submited a couple of packages at fedora. i hope that the
incompatabilites will be resolved. I honestly dont think Fedora has all the
answers and all it curreently has is a basic framework. But it is a good
starting point. i personally would like to see releases only yearly or less.
with updates constantly. new releases should only come when compatibility
with the release is about to be broken. take that step then and only then.
Dennis
Mixing repositories is problematic. It looks that fedora packages always
had an epoch set, and thus always looked "newer" then freshrpms
packages. But now, after they remove all video and mp3 packages there
will be less duplicates.
> On the other hand, Fedora, until now, has allowed me to very quickly and
> easily extend my standard Red Hat 7, 8, and 9 servers/workstations while
> encounter few if any of these problems. It has really, really been nice.
> But now it ends and I am thrown back into the whirlpool.
>
> It has been very, very nice install Fedora yum/apt and be able to tell
> my customers, my sister, my wife, "Just do ..." and presto, changeo, you
> can play your MP3's or watch your DVD's. They really don't do so well
> when I pass on to them the typical answer from these lists of "just
> install all this stuff from freshrpms, reconfigure your modules.conf,
> maybe rebuild your kernel, and it 'just works', Yeah, right"
Again, never seen any such problems. Just ran apt-get xmms-mp3 mplayer
xine ... after distro installation and it just worked.
6:38 a.m.
New subject: ayo apt rawhide repositories
So, excuse me if I am missing something again, does the ayo (freshrpms)
rawhide repositories contain essentially the same thing as the Red Hat
Rawhide repositories? I mean, can one keep up to date with Test 1 =>
Test 2 via that route?
rg
8:10 a.m.
New subject: ayo apt rawhide repositories
rg wrote :
So, excuse me if I am missing something again, does the ayo
(freshrpms)
rawhide repositories contain essentially the same thing as the Red Hat
Rawhide repositories? I mean, can one keep up to date with Test 1 =>
Test 2 via that route?
You can easily move from Severn to Rawhide with yum or apt using
ayo.freshrpms.net, yes. It should also be possible to upgrade to the next
beta that way, although it's not an official supported path, as only
upgrades from previous stable releases are.
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
Raw Hide 20030922 running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.21 0.35 0.48
6:46 a.m.
New subject: Fedora availability via CheapBytes etc.
Just wondering, now that the RH name is gone from the new Fedora, and as
the distro will be an essentially free product, will it be available
under its real name, Fedora, from places like CheapBytes, which at
present cannot sell Red Hat Linux disks under that name, and thus use
goofbally names like "Pink Tie" or "Blue Jacket"? Or will the same
EULA
rules apply meaning that they will be selling "Floppy Stetson" disks?
rg
7:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora availability via CheapBytes etc.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:46:28 +0900, rg wrote:
Just wondering, now that the RH name is gone from the new Fedora, and
as
the distro will be an essentially free product, will it be available
under its real name, Fedora, from places like CheapBytes, which at
present [...]
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/faq/
- --
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8:54 a.m.
New subject: Fedora availability via CheapBytes etc.
Michael Schwendt wrote:
>Just wondering, now that the RH name is gone from the new Fedora,
and as
>the distro will be an essentially free product, will it be available
>under its real name, Fedora, from places like CheapBytes, which at
>present [...]
>
>
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/faq/
Thanks, got it, methinks.
Q: How will Fedora Project be made available to the public?
A: ...and will also be available through other channels such as
third-party online sales of physical media...
Very good, so then everyone can access it pretty easily without dealing
with the pink tie (Hey, Bill, that might go nicely with the Blue Felt hat).
rg
7:48 a.m.
New subject: Fedora availability via CheapBytes etc.
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 07:54, rg2 wrote:
Q: How will Fedora Project be made available to the public?
A: ...and will also be available through other channels such as
third-party online sales of physical media...
Very good, so then everyone can access it pretty easily without dealing
with the pink tie (Hey, Bill, that might go nicely with the Blue Felt hat).
Along with a clean shirt, white gloves and new shoes. "'Cuz every girl's
crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man" -ZZTop.
:^)
--
Bill Anderson
RHCE #807302597505773
bill(a)noreboots.com
7:03 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
starting point. i personally would like to see releases only yearly
or less.
with updates constantly. new releases should only come when compatibility
with the release is about to be broken. take that step then and only then.
Regular releases is important for keeping stuff up to date and
also for getting the latest technology into the hands of folks with
modems rather than broadband
7:12 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Regular releases is important for keeping stuff up to date and
also for getting the latest technology into the hands of folks with
modems rather than broadband
I'd like to propose the following for those of us who want to worry
about maintenance and upgrades but are not in a position to afford RHEL
(you can read that as *.edu :)
What if the following were done:
(FedoraCoreLinux = FCL)
FCL1 is released - it is considered current release
FCL2 is released - FCL1 becomes stable FCL2 becomes current
FCL3 is released - FCL1 becomes old FCL2 becomes stable FCL3 becomes
current
FCL4 is released - FCL1 is deprecated FCL2 is old FCL3 is stable FCL4 is
current
Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
I guess what I'm getting at is that if there is a way to focus on any 3
releases and then a lot of us who are not in a position to afford RHEL
or who do not want to buy RHEL can have a set of structures to help
ourselves.
I know red hat can't continue to devote many many developer hours on
errata of un-paid releases, however, I'm hoping that the fedora system
will mean that nothing precludes or will try to resist someone from
doing this.
-sv
8:18 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Once upon a time at band camp Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:12 pm, seth vidal wrote:
> Regular releases is important for keeping stuff up to date and
> also for getting the latest technology into the hands of folks with
> modems rather than broadband
I'd like to propose the following for those of us who want to worry
about maintenance and upgrades but are not in a position to afford RHEL
(you can read that as *.edu :)
What if the following were done:
(FedoraCoreLinux = FCL)
FCL1 is released - it is considered current release
FCL2 is released - FCL1 becomes stable FCL2 becomes current
FCL3 is released - FCL1 becomes old FCL2 becomes stable FCL3 becomes
current
FCL4 is released - FCL1 is deprecated FCL2 is old FCL3 is stable FCL4 is
current
I like that idea also. i am a University Student and cant afford RHEL but i
do run my own server here. and i dont want to have to upgrade or rebuild and
test it every 4-6 months
Dennis
Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
I guess what I'm getting at is that if there is a way to focus on any 3
releases and then a lot of us who are not in a position to afford RHEL
or who do not want to buy RHEL can have a set of structures to help
ourselves.
I know red hat can't continue to devote many many developer hours on
errata of un-paid releases, however, I'm hoping that the fedora system
will mean that nothing precludes or will try to resist someone from
doing this.
-sv
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7:46 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 07:18, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
I like that idea also. i am a University Student and cant afford
RHEL but i
do run my own server here. and i dont want to have to upgrade or rebuild and
test it every 4-6 months
Then *don't*. This isn't MS, nobody (other than perhaps your boss) is
forcing you to do that,
--
Bill Anderson
RHCE #807302597505773
bill(a)noreboots.com
8:22 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
I know red hat can't continue to devote many many developer hours
on
errata of un-paid releases, however, I'm hoping that the fedora system
will mean that nothing precludes or will try to resist someone from
doing this.
Fedora Legacy was defined to provide a place for third parties to do that.
8:29 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 09:22, Alan Cox wrote:
Fedora Legacy was defined to provide a place for third parties to do
that.
Right, and as I mentioned before, it could be useful to separate core
and legacy maintenance bits into 3+ segments that can be followed
easily.
-sv
8:32 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Once upon a time at band camp Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:03 pm, Alan Cox wrote:
<snip>
Regular releases is important for keeping stuff up to date and
also for getting the latest technology into the hands of folks with
modems rather than broadband
How will these users get there iso's if there is no longer boxed sets? Third
party Vendors? why cant update cds be made for these users?
Dennis
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8:46 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
How will these users get there iso's if there is no longer boxed
sets? Third
party Vendors? why cant update cds be made for these users?
What is the difference between an update CD and a new release - the
only big one is that by doing 2 or 3 releases a year most people will be
running the same combinations of versions which helps a lot in debugging and
with extras.
9:09 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Once upon a time at band camp Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:46 pm, Alan Cox wrote:
> How will these users get there iso's if there is no longer
boxed sets?
> Third party Vendors? why cant update cds be made for these users?
What is the difference between an update CD and a new release - the
only big one is that by doing 2 or 3 releases a year most people will be
running the same combinations of versions which helps a lot in debugging
and with extras.
an update CD Would not totally replace every core package in the system but
provide a means for the user to update only those those that the user felt
needed updating. or it would be a good way to update say kde to the newest
version. while leaving the core intact. regardless of dial-up or broadband
security updates should be downloaded immediately but updated packages could
be issued in a quartely update cd with a new version every 12- 18 months.
universitys for example are most likely to upgrade systems over the summer
break. not at any other time of year. they dont have the time to test the
system fully anyother time of year.
My laptop and Desktops i keep up to the current packages at most times but my
server i have configured and only update security related issues or bug
fixes. when ever i update anything i back up config files and then test to
make sure everything is configured as it should be and is doing the job it
should do. a full system upgrade is a much bigger task than updating a
handful of packages.
9:25 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
an update CD Would not totally replace every core package in the
system but
provide a means for the user to update only those those that the user felt
needed updating. or it would be a good way to update say kde to the newest
version. while leaving the core intact. regardless of dial-up or broadband
Except that dependancies will suck in other stuff anyway. Nothing forces you
to update every package all the time. up2date lets you pick the bits you
want as do the other tools.
The aim of Fedora is to be current and track mainstream
9:19 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
why cant update cds be made for these users?
I can't see why people wouldn't make update CDs.
Volunteers ?
Now, if there are no volunteers you have your
answer ;)
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
5:29 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Once upon a time at band camp Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:19 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> why cant update cds be made for these users?
I can't see why people wouldn't make update CDs.
Volunteers ?
Now, if there are no volunteers you have your
answer ;)
Im more than willing to create and distribute one
2:54 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Maynard Kuona wrote:
I sometimes wish Redhat would just buy the license. It is becoming
very
inconvenient for us. With fedora now merged with Redhat, we now have to
get these somewhere else. Can these not be hosted outside US, as a
temporary measure until the issue is resolved, because it needs to be. I
am no longer encoding my cds into mp3, but I have so many mp3's, it is a
hassle to to this nicely with Redhat. How much does the license cost. Is
it not $50,000 for the perpetual license.
As has been discussed to death many times for about 2 years, the
GPL explicitly disallows patented stuff from being included in
software under the GPL license. As such, even if Red Hat were to
purchase a patent license, it would be useless because *ALL* of
the open source MP3 software out there is GPL licensed (in
violation of the license due to patented bits being used).
In other words, the GPL license on all MP3 software out there is
invalid, regardless of wether or not Red Hat would have a license
to ship MP3 decoding technology. Red Hat would have to either:
1) Convince the patent owner to permit unlimited unrestricted use
of their patent(s) in GPL licensed software - either for free
or by paying them money, and they would most likely want a
hell of a lot more money than $50000 in order to permit legal
usage of the patent in GPL software, and thus make all OSS MP3
players out there legal. The patent owner would have to be
convinced in some manner that they stand to benefit
financially from doing so. Since this would more likely than
not, kill any revenue streams they receive from companies out
there that do currently license their patents, in my opinion,
it would be very unlikely for this to happen unless the sum of
money superceded the revenue they receive now from the patent,
and any revenue they'd be likely to receive from it for many
years. Such a sum of money would very likely supercede any
value Red Hat would receive from fronting the money IMHO. It
would more or less be a charity donation for all intents and
purposes, and would make stockholders uncomfortable to say the
least.
or
2) Pay the $50000 to license the patent, and then purchase or
license existing proprietary MP3 technology from some company
such as Winamp. This would be including binary only software
in the distribution, which is directly opposite of the goals
of Red Hat, and of the Fedora Project.
or
3) Pay the $50000 to license the patent, and hire developers to
write brand new MP3 decoding software, or write it internally,
either of which would be a very expensive prospect, and would
have to be under a non-OSS license as well unless the
patent license grant permitted an OSS compatible license of
some kind, which would be unlikely IMHO.
Both option 2 and 3 are contrary to the goals of the Fedora
Project.
Of course, I'm not really saying anything here that hasn't been
said about 20 million times over the last 2 years or so, but it
seems it can never be said enough times, as there's always
someone new out there who isn't aware of the issues involved, and
thinks it is a simple thing to just toss a couple bags of spare
change over the counter.... Not the case.
--
Mike A. Harris ftp://people.redhat.com/mharris
OS Systems Engineer - XFree86 maintainer - Red Hat
12:34 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Mike A. Harris wrote:
In other words, the GPL license on all MP3 software out there is
invalid, regardless of wether or not Red Hat would have a license
to ship MP3 decoding technology. Red Hat would have to either:
1) Convince the patent owner to permit unlimited unrestricted use
2) Pay the $50000 to license the patent, and then purchase or
3) Pay the $50000 to license the patent, and hire developers to
Missed a 4th possibility. One of the current players could relicense
their player. Perhaps a new license, that looks like the GPL except the
patent restriction. The negotiation for a license should allow for
non-commercial use and redistribution. Also clarify that "selling" a
collection of programs/source code is allowed, which is part of the
current MP3 problems.
The player could even be dual licensed like Mozilla/OpenOffice.org,
better still the MySQL way, so commercial code is possible, but such use
would require a seperate license for MP3 (and friends). That would
further help the patent holder guaranty revenue.
[Not that I agree with software patents at all. I personally don't
create MP3 files. If a decent portable/car player with OGG-vorbis
support shouw up I'll by one, but not until them. My only current use of
MPEG is DVD/DVB, where their is really no alternative (yet).]
-Thomas
12:39 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
[Not that I agree with software patents at all. I personally
don't
create MP3 files. If a decent portable/car player with OGG-vorbis
support shouw up I'll by one, but not until them. My only current use of
MPEG is DVD/DVB, where their is really no alternative (yet).]
From what I've heard the rio karma is ogg compatible and outputs
VERY
good sound quality.
-sv
12:46 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Thomas Dodd wrote:
Mike A. Harris wrote:
> In other words, the GPL license on all MP3 software out there is
> invalid, regardless of wether or not Red Hat would have a license to
> ship MP3 decoding technology. Red Hat would have to either:
>
> 1) Convince the patent owner to permit unlimited unrestricted use 2)
> Pay the $50000 to license the patent, and then purchase or 3) Pay the
> $50000 to license the patent, and hire developers to
Missed a 4th possibility. One of the current players could relicense
their player. Perhaps a new license, that looks like the GPL except the
patent restriction. The negotiation for a license should allow for
non-commercial use and redistribution. Also clarify that "selling" a
collection of programs/source code is allowed, which is part of the
current MP3 problems.
wouldn't that still be incompatible with the GPL, meaning it would still
not be shipped with RH/FC?
The player could even be dual licensed like Mozilla/OpenOffice.org,
better still the MySQL way, so commercial code is possible, but such use
would require a seperate license for MP3 (and friends). That would
further help the patent holder guaranty revenue.
[Not that I agree with software patents at all. I personally don't
create MP3 files. If a decent portable/car player with OGG-vorbis
support shouw up I'll by one, but not until them. My only current use of
MPEG is DVD/DVB, where their is really no alternative (yet).]
The whole issue is getting a GPL compatible license to the patents, so
that a truely GPL licensed player can be built on them. Both the player
and the patent need to have GPL compatible licenses, otherwise they
won't be shipped in RHEL/FC.
1:19 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Justin Georgeson wrote:
The whole issue is getting a GPL compatible license to the patents,
so
that a truely GPL licensed player can be built on them. Both the player
That would be nice. I personally would prefer stickin with ogg-vorbis,
assuming it's not later found to infringe on someone's patent. Best
solution is invalidate all software patents, and prevent any future
ones. I'm not holding my breath though.
and the patent need to have GPL compatible licenses, otherwise they
won't be shipped in RHEL/FC.
Perhaps I missed something. RHEL and FC will contain only GPL and GPL
compatible code? Limitations on commercial reuse of the code should be
OK, such that the code cod be used on corportate machines, as long as
you aren't selling the code or something that is substantially a
derivative. So a distribution/collection is OK, but a commercial
player,encoder,decoder isn't, embedded or not.
-Thomas
9:22 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Perhaps I missed something. RHEL and FC will contain only GPL and GPL
compatible code? Limitations on commercial reuse of the code should be
RHEL sometimes includes some additional non free 3rd party software
customers require (notably Java) bundled with them. Fedora itself is
free software (not neccesarily GPL). Third parties selling mp3 stuff or
shipping free mp3 stuff to countries where it doesn't hit patent issues
are simply outside Fedora itself, just like any other third party suppied
software
9:47 a.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
Folks,
OK, I remember the discussion of some SOHO Red Hat product coming soon, and I'm just
reading the release discussion on Red Hat
Professional Workstation - http://www.redhat.com/software/workstation/
The links from this page all go towards RHEL info, which suggests that it's an
offshoot of RHEL WS.
According to Linux Central - it's to ship Nov 10, 2003 - and is "version
10".
That suggests it's an offshoot of Fedora.
Has there been a beta of Red Hat Professional Workstation? Is it more closely related to
Fedora or RHEL? Is it the "affordable"
version of RHEL that we've all been waiting for on the Taroon list?
Thanks,
Mike Jang
10:04 a.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
MJang (michael(a)ywow.org) said:
OK, I remember the discussion of some SOHO Red Hat product coming
soon, and I'm just reading the release discussion on Red Hat
Professional Workstation - http://www.redhat.com/software/workstation/
The links from this page all go towards RHEL info, which suggests that it's an
offshoot of RHEL WS.
According to Linux Central - it's to ship Nov 10, 2003 - and is "version
10".
That suggests it's an offshoot of Fedora.
Has there been a beta of Red Hat Professional Workstation?
Not exactly (see below).
Is it more closely related to Fedora or RHEL?
It's related to RHEL; the Taroon beta is much more relevant to
Red Hat Professional Workstation than Fedora is.
Bill
10:18 a.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
Dear Bill,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Nottingham" <notting(a)redhat.com>
> Has there been a beta of Red Hat Professional Workstation?
Not exactly (see below).
> Is it more closely related to Fedora or RHEL?
It's related to RHEL; the Taroon beta is much more relevant to
Red Hat Professional Workstation than Fedora is.
Thanks for your quick response. Thus, can I assume it's most closely related to RHEL
Workstation? If so, do you know what the
differences are? For example, maybe it doesn't include the non-free 3rd party software
that Alan Cox mentioned earlier?
To rephrase - why would Red Hat release both an Enterprise Workstation and a Professional
Workstation product?
Thanks,
Mike Jang
1:15 p.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
>>>> "MJang" == MJang <michael(a)ywow.org>
writes:
...
MJang> To rephrase - why would Red Hat release both an Enterprise
MJang> Workstation and a Professional Workstation product?
Here's my understanding:
Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation is meant for the enterprise market;
Red hat Professional Workstation is a retail-only product intended for
individuals looking to use Linux personally (yeah, I can't figure out why
it says "Professional" in the name, either).
Ed
--
Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/
1:53 p.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:15:32 -0400 -- "Edward C. Bailey" <ed(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
>>>>> "MJang" == MJang
<michael(a)ywow.org> writes:
...
MJang> To rephrase - why would Red Hat release both an Enterprise
MJang> Workstation and a Professional Workstation product?
Here's my understanding:
Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation is meant for the enterprise market;
Red hat Professional Workstation is a retail-only product intended for
individuals looking to use Linux personally (yeah, I can't figure out why
it says "Professional" in the name, either).
Ed
--
Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/
--
Wellllll, would you buy "Red Hat Amateur Workstation".
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
--
John Wendel
3:22 p.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
On October 10, 2003 02:53 pm, John Wendel <John Wendel
<jwendel(a)fnmoc.navy.mil>> wrote:
Wellllll, would you buy "Red Hat Amateur Workstation".
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
... I would! ... after all I still consider
myself an amateur!
BTW: "amateur"comes from latin:"amatus" (lover).
I love linux.
... I couldn't resist, either! LOL!!
Elton ;-))
--
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_4504.html
"You only live once: let's make life BETTER for each other."
LINUX User #193975 [AMD ATHLON CPU] ICQ #149608718.
10:19 a.m.
New subject: Red Hat Professional Workstation
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:47:28 -0400, MJang wrote:
OK, I remember the discussion of some SOHO Red Hat product coming
soon, and I'm just reading the release discussion on Red Hat
Professional Workstation - http://www.redhat.com/software/workstation/
The links from this page all go towards RHEL info, which suggests that it's an
offshoot of RHEL WS.
According to Linux Central - it's to ship Nov 10, 2003 - and is "version
10".
Some retailers seem to not have been told enough details about that
product, as they seem to confuse it with Red Hat Linux 10, also with
regard to product life cycle (errata support period).
That suggests it's an offshoot of Fedora.
Red Hat's own pages say:
"Based on the leading enterprise Linux operating system,"
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11:02 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Alan Cox wrote:
>Perhaps I missed something. RHEL and FC will contain only GPL and
GPL
>compatible code? Limitations on commercial reuse of the code should be
RHEL sometimes includes some additional non free 3rd party software
customers require (notably Java) bundled with them. Fedora itself is
free software (not neccesarily GPL). Third parties selling mp3 stuff or
shipping free mp3 stuff to countries where it doesn't hit patent issues
are simply outside Fedora itself, just like any other third party suppied
software
This was regaurding a free, but for noncommercial use, player that has a
license for the MP3 patents. That means it's not GPL, because of the
non-commercial uses clause.
So are opensource, free ($$), apps out of the question. My understandang
is the GPL on MySQL libs (not LGLP), is keeping MySQL at an old version
too. That make some sense, since I can see people creating commercial
app that use tyhe MySQL libs. But a media player? It doesn't seam to be
the kind of thing that would be tried. It's would clearly be a derivitive.
-Thomas
11:15 a.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
This was regaurding a free, but for noncommercial use, player that
has a
license for the MP3 patents. That means it's not GPL, because of the
non-commercial uses clause.
There is non-commercial exemption to the MP3 patent licenses available.
is the GPL on MySQL libs (not LGLP), is keeping MySQL at an old
version
too. That make some sense, since I can see people creating commercial
Thats also because the new mysql can't be combined with PHP.
4:31 p.m.
New subject: What are consequences of "merger necessitates removal of ...
Alan Cox wrote:
>is the GPL on MySQL libs (not LGLP), is keeping MySQL at an old
version
>too. That make some sense, since I can see people creating commercial
Thats also because the new mysql can't be combined with PHP.
Can someone point me to the reference for this? I'd like to read up but
spare everyone the questions that spring to mind that are likely already
answered.
ciao!
leam
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Realplayer
On October 10, 2003 08:20 am, listman depfyffer <listman depfyffer.com> wrote:
Has anyone tried / been able to get realplayer working on fedora?
I tried installing the RPM but it runs once locks up then never runs again.
I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
It is downloadable from HERE:
Once I verify that I have mozplugger installed, I have to EDIT
/etc/mozpluggerrc and append the extension "lsc" to the
realaudio references.
Next I install RealOne, startup my browser, and start viewing
TV or listening to the radio.
FWIW, my preference for RealOne is that I like the interface!
HTH & cheers....
Elton ;-)
--
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_4504.html
"You only live once: let's make life BETTER for each other."
LINUX User #193975 [AMD ATHLON CPU] ICQ #149608718.
1:32 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 13:14, Elton Woo wrote:
On October 10, 2003 08:20 am, listman depfyffer <listman
depfyffer.com> wrote:
> Has anyone tried / been able to get realplayer working on fedora?
>I tried installing the RPM but it runs once locks up then never runs again.
I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
It is downloadable from HERE:
What's the URL? :)
Once I verify that I have mozplugger installed, I have to EDIT
/etc/mozpluggerrc and append the extension "lsc" to the
realaudio references.
Next I install RealOne, startup my browser, and start viewing
TV or listening to the radio.
FWIW, my preference for RealOne is that I like the interface!
HTH & cheers....
Elton ;-)
--
=============================
Daniel Wittenberg
RHCE+AS/IBM Certified Specialist
President/CTO
The Starken Group
http://www.starken.com
1:44 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
Daniel Wittenberg wrote:
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 13:14, Elton Woo wrote:
>On October 10, 2003 08:20 am, listman depfyffer <listman depfyffer.com> wrote:
>
>>Has anyone tried / been able to get realplayer working on fedora?
>>I tried installing the RPM but it runs once locks up then never runs again.
>
>I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
>RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
>It is downloadable from HERE:
What's the URL? :)
go to real.com, find the link at the bottom left to download the Unix
player, fill out the form, at the bottom of the download page is a
button following a blurb about the community supported alpha version of
RealOne. click that button and you get a new download page.
2:45 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
Le Vendredi 10 Octobre 2003 20:32, Daniel Wittenberg a écrit :
> I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
> RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
> It is downloadable from HERE:
What's the URL? :)
http://www.cs.trinity.edu/ftp/pub/RedHat9-Software-Additions/
--
Cordialement
3:12 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
On October 23, 2003 03:45 pm, AP , <AP <aph.p(a)online.fr>> wrote:
Le Vendredi 10 Octobre 2003 20:32, Daniel Wittenberg a écrit :
> > I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
> > RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
> > It is downloadable from HERE:
http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/
> What's the URL? :)
http://www.cs.trinity.edu/ftp/pub/RedHat9-Software-Additions/
Elton ;-)
--
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_4504.html
"You only live once: let's make life BETTER for each other."
LINUX User #193975 [AMD ATHLON CPU] ICQ #149608718.
7:55 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
Once upon a time at band camp Sat, 25 Oct 2003 6:12 am, Elton Woo wrote:
On October 23, 2003 03:45 pm, AP , <AP <aph.p(a)online.fr>>
wrote:
> Le Vendredi 10 Octobre 2003 20:32, Daniel Wittenberg a écrit :
> > > I'm using RealOne Player (Realplayer9 for linux),
> > > RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
> > > It is downloadable from HERE:
http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/
> > What's the URL? :)
>
> http://www.cs.trinity.edu/ftp/pub/RedHat9-Software-Additions/
Elton ;-)
the community released Helix player is now available at www.helixplayer.org
you do need to register. but it is a version you can get the source code
for and work on if you want. It also includes a plugin for Mozilla but they
havent set the mime types quite right. one of them make it think rpm
packages are intended to be run through helixplayer.
Dennis
8:53 p.m.
New subject: [FEDORA] Re: Realplayer
On October 24, 2003 08:55 pm, Dennis Gilmore , <Dennis Gilmore
<dennis(a)ausil.us>> wrote:
> > > > RealPlayer9-9.0.7.151-4.i386.rpm.
> > > > It is downloadable from HERE:
>
> http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/
>
> > > What's the URL? :)
> >
> > http://www.cs.trinity.edu/ftp/pub/RedHat9-Software-Additions/
>
> Elton ;-)
the community released Helix player is now available at www.helixplayer.org
you do need to register. but it is a version you can get the source
code for and work on if you want. It also includes a plugin for Mozilla
but they havent set the mime types quite right. one of them make it think
rpm packages are intended to be run through helixplayer.
Actually gxine handles realaudio / realvideo stuff, too, and *it* also has
a habit of trying to load rpm files. In that case, I have to RMB and do
"save as" to download the file. I'll look into Helix anyway. The name
is familiar, and I probably read a bit of it in my wanderings on the 'net.
Elton ;-)
--
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_4504.html
"You only live once: let's make life BETTER for each other."
LINUX User #193975 [AMD ATHLON CPU] ICQ #149608718.
1:55 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:19:39 -0700, Randall J. Parr wrote:
>>* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic
packages
>>due to licensing issues.
>>
>>
>>Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
>>the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
>>Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
>>
>>
>
>Correct.
>
>While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
>party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
>
>
>
Yes, there are but they are limited and/or carry with them considerable
problems/conflicts.
Don't panic! Right now you don't know what new respositories will pop
up to fill the gap.
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3:26 p.m.
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 12:55, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> >>* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic packages
> >>due to licensing issues.
> >>
> >>
> >>Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
> >>the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
> >>Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Correct.
> >
> >While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
> >party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yes, there are but they are limited and/or carry with them considerable
> problems/conflicts.
Don't panic! Right now you don't know what new respositories will pop
up to fill the gap.
There's always Fresh RPMs (http://www.freshrpms.net).
Cheers,
Chris
--
====================================
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,
try orderin' someone else's dog around."
--Cowboy Wisdom
1:58 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2003 at 11:19:39AM -0700, Randall J. Parr wrote:
Given the recent retoric on the Fedora and Red Hat newsgroups
I had high hopes the Fedora repository and approach would expand and gain
more wide spread use thus making it even easier to pull-together a fully
functional workstation/desktop.
Now it appears the one good, effective effort has been coopted and devalued.
Not really.
There are already other repositories out there, such as Dag Wieers's,
http://dag.wieers.com/packages/
who, *surprise*, is also a contributor to the original Fedora Linux Project.
Also: ATrpms: http://atrpms.physik.fu-berlin.de/
Having perused the new Fedora web site a bit, the one thought that leaps
to mind is that CVS will be the weakest link in scaling this project out.
The sooner Fedora can move to a distributed revision control mechanism
(such as arch) that integrates well with the build environment, the better
it will be for contributors who, for whatever reason, legal or otherwise,
cannot push their changes/packages upstream. Projects sometimes need
to diverge rather far from the trunk before they are stable or useful,
and constant merging with CVS is a miserable time-consuming task. E.g.,
SElinux, or full support for 2.6, both of which involve changes to the
kernel, initscripts, mkinitrd, util-linux, ...
There are of course reasons for retaining centralized control --
ask your friendly BSD'er. But I'd much rather see something akin to the
current kernel development model for the entire Fedora distribution.
Bill Rugolsky
4:17 a.m.
Bill Nottingham wrote :
> Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to
pickup
> the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
> Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
Correct.
While I can't speak for certain, I'm sure there will be third
party repository maintainers willing to host such software.
You're saying that as if it hadn't ever existed outside of fedora.us, ouch,
really ouch :-(
Matthias
--
Clean custom Red Hat Linux rpm packages : http://freshrpms.net/
running Linux kernel 2.4.22-20.1.2024.2.36.nptl
Load : 0.31 0.24 0.22
1:22 p.m.
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 13:41, Gordon Messmer wrote:
Matthias Saou wrote:
> You're saying that as if it hadn't ever existed outside of fedora.us, ouch,
> really ouch :-(
>
> Matthias
Some of us still remember that freshrpms came along before Fedora did :)
Matthias actually inspired fedora.
Phil
5:19 p.m.
I'm getting a bit confused to the ultimate goal of combining Fedora with
Red Hat. I only used Fedora to get a decent DVD playing program and some
mp3 related programs.
I hope this project goes into a direction to expand on the usefulness
for the Red Hat / Fedora merging. There seems to be some great and
competent developers working for the project. I hope this move enhances
the people available to do the development and not cut out "redundant
employees" for similar program development.
Fedora as a standalone project was an asset to the Linux user. I hope
the merge is an asset for the Linux community.
Jim
---
Randall J. Parr wrote:
I received the email announcement.
I have read every page at fedora.redhat.com
I have found no clarification about just what the implication is of the
following statement from fedora.us and similar statements at
fedoda.redhat.com
* This merger necessitates the removal of certain problematic packages
due to licensing issues.
Does this mean that we will no longer be able to go to Fedora to pickup
the MP3, mplayer, etc. packages which have not been included in recent
Red Hat releases because of potential licensing problems.
I am not one who complained or had a problem with Red Hat taking this
stand BUT I was very, very glad to able to go to Fedora and download
versions of these added packages that would work with a standard
install. I HAD high hopes the growth of Fedora would lead to a much,
much easier to use combination RH[L] + Fedora.
I am very concerned these vague statements mean that I will be forced,
once more, to get these added packages from special purpose, limited,
repositories which force me to particular non-standard configurations
(must have ALSA, etc.) and/or back to trying to figure out how to pull
together all the source, build it, etc.
I have only recently, through Fedora, been able to *easily* get various
sound and video apps working on my RH8 and RH9 workstations. In large
part because I could apt/yum apps built to work with my standard RH
installs.
I am also concerned that this "open" project has made only these vague
statements. This seems like a pretty major point and one which you'all
should be up front about.
R.Parr, RHCE
Temporal Arts
--
fedora-test-list mailing list
fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
--
A fail-safe circuit will destroy others.
-- Klipstein
5:20 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
Here I go obsessing with naming again, but it is an important point as
some folk do have to prepare docs and such which include the name. So,
now we know that it is the Fedora project, but is it going to be Fedora
Linux now? Or is it still going to be Red Hat Linux as developed by the
Fedora project? Is the Red Hat logo going to be gone from the GNOME
menu or what?
Ralston
5:42 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
rg (grant(a)tuins.ac.jp) said:
Here I go obsessing with naming again, but it is an important point
as
some folk do have to prepare docs and such which include the name. So,
now we know that it is the Fedora project, but is it going to be Fedora
Linux now? Or is it still going to be Red Hat Linux as developed by the
Fedora project? Is the Red Hat logo going to be gone from the GNOME
menu or what?
The Red Hat logo is not on the gnome menu. That's just a random red
hat. (silly, but important trademark distinction.)
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/terminology.html
might help to answer your previous question.
Bill
5:45 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
Here I go obsessing with naming again, but it is an important point
as
some folk do have to prepare docs and such which include the name. So,
now we know that it is the Fedora project, but is it going to be Fedora
Linux now? Or is it still going to be Red Hat Linux as developed by the
Fedora project? Is the Red Hat logo going to be gone from the GNOME
menu or what?
It is the Fedora Project. The core part of it is Fedora Core. We have
proposed names for various categories of additional stuff, including
externally maintained projects. One reason for it not being ".. Linux" is
that someone might come along and build a version with a FreeBSD kernel,
or ERoS based or other things.
We hope to have the full trademark guideline stuff up ASAP, which I guess
is the precise version of what you need ?
5:48 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
Alan Cox wrote:
>Here I go obsessing with naming again, but it is an important
point as
>some folk do have to prepare docs and such which include the name. So,
>now we know that it is the Fedora project, but is it going to be Fedora
>Linux now? Or is it still going to be Red Hat Linux as developed by the
>Fedora project? Is the Red Hat logo going to be gone from the GNOME
>menu or what?
>
>
It is the Fedora Project. The core part of it is Fedora Core. We have
proposed names for various categories of additional stuff, including
externally maintained projects. One reason for it not being ".. Linux" is
that someone might come along and build a version with a FreeBSD kernel,
or ERoS based or other things.
We hope to have the full trademark guideline stuff up ASAP, which I guess
is the precise version of what you need ?
Hmmm... So, until the trademark guidelines come out, am I essentially
correct in assuming that the final release will be The Fedora Project
(not Fedora Linux), which will have a random red hat, as is the case
now, (not called the Red Hat Logo) on the GNOME menu? So when someone
asks what I am running, I can say the Fedora Project. And when they ask
what's a good book to buy to get them up to snuff, I can say "The Fedora
Project Bible," or "The Fedora Project Unleashed," or "The Fedora
Project for Dummies?"
Am I on track here?
Ralston
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6:28 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
On Monday 22 September 2003 15:48, rg wrote:
Hmmm... So, until the trademark guidelines come out, am I
essentially
correct in assuming that the final release will be The Fedora Project
(not Fedora Linux), which will have a random red hat, as is the case
now, (not called the Red Hat Logo) on the GNOME menu? So when someone
asks what I am running, I can say the Fedora Project. And when they
ask what's a good book to buy to get them up to snuff, I can say "The
Fedora Project Bible," or "The Fedora Project Unleashed," or "The
Fedora Project for Dummies?"
Am I on track here?
Why not call the whole thing "Fedora Project" and then the Linux Kernel
release of the Fedora Project could be called "Fedora Linux" ? And if
such time arrives that a BSD kernel based release comes out, it can be
"Fedora BSD"? Calling the OS "Fedora Project" will confuse
customers/vendors/media to no end, making them think it's something all
of it's own, not Linux based...
Of course, I can just hear some people clamoring for "GNU/Fedora *"...
--
Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
http://geek.j2solutions.net
Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)
Was I helpful? Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
This naming thing is all too problematic. What are you guys thinking?
Is this an end-user distro or not? Is it even a distro? Does it sound
like one?
JK, below, makes a good point. If you call it something as seemingly
abstract on the end user's end as xxx project, the average joe looking
for a Linux distro is likely to pass right over it. If said 'joe' does
not, and goes on to install it, he or she is most likely going to call
it Fedora Linux anyway. This abstraction in regard to naming because of
the possibility of a future BSD based release is beyond the average user
- the distinction is one for developers. Also, the naming of the
downloadable distro as Fedora Core, sounds more like a naming for the
kernel to the average joe; it does not sound like a full distro. Again,
this distinction seems more aimed at developers than end users.
This points to a continuous failing in the Linux community at large -
while it pays lip service to end users, it is still too developer
oriented. Call it geek-oriented if you like, but the average end user
who puts Linux on his or her desktop is not interested in technical
nuances and possible future BSD releases - the average user doesn't even
know or care what BSD is.
Also, if you guys are masking the Red Hat heritage of the 'distro', how
is the average person supposed to even know that the logical follow up
to RH9 is Fedora Project? Or is it Fedora Core? Or maybe Fedora Coupe
deVille.
RG
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Monday 22 September 2003 15:48, rg wrote:
>Hmmm... So, until the trademark guidelines come out, am I essentially
>correct in assuming that the final release will be The Fedora Project
>(not Fedora Linux), which will have a random red hat, as is the case
>now, (not called the Red Hat Logo) on the GNOME menu? So when someone
>asks what I am running, I can say the Fedora Project. And when they
>ask what's a good book to buy to get them up to snuff, I can say "The
>Fedora Project Bible," or "The Fedora Project Unleashed," or "The
>Fedora Project for Dummies?"
>
>Am I on track here?
>
>
Why not call the whole thing "Fedora Project" and then the Linux Kernel
release of the Fedora Project could be called "Fedora Linux" ? And if
such time arrives that a BSD kernel based release comes out, it can be
"Fedora BSD"? Calling the OS "Fedora Project" will confuse
customers/vendors/media to no end, making them think it's something all
of it's own, not Linux based...
Of course, I can just hear some people clamoring for "GNU/Fedora *"...
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
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Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:29:34 +0900, rg wrote:
Also, if you guys are masking the Red Hat heritage of the
'distro', how
is the average person supposed to even know that the logical follow up
to RH9 is Fedora Project?
As you can imagine, a press release from Red Hat will announce that
separately when "Cambridge" is ready.
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/
Some users will look for Red Hat Linux 9.1 or 10 or whatever and will
learn that the successor of Red Hat Linux 9 is released with a
different name. Some will learn about the Fedora Project for the first
time.
Or is it Fedora Core? Or maybe Fedora Coupe deVille.
One thing for sure, the community will call it "Fedora", because hardly
anyone will distinguish between the core distribution and "Fedora
Extras" type of add-on packages.
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/terminology.html
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/roadmap/
Really many of the questions that have come up on the mailing-lists
are answered somewhere on:
http://fedora.redhat.com
- --
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9:31 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
OK, you missed some of my points, especially the Linux bit (what happens
in the future if there is a Linux and BSD version?), but...
Anyway, to the meat of the matter: is it correct-legal-acceptable in
printed materials (books, magazines, online articles etc) then, to refer
to what the user has or is putting on his or her machine, the Fedora
Project distro, as just Fedora. For example, "Once you have installed
Fedora, you can....," "Fedora allows you to.....," "If you are new to
Fedora, you will find..." and so on. Red Hat seemed fussy on this point
in the past, insisting, as I recall, that Red Hat be referred to as Red
Hat Linux Operating System or, at least, Red Hat Linux, rather than Red
Hat.
And, getting back to that icon of a hat on the GNOME menu that just
happens to be a red hat, not a Red Hat, is it going to stay? Don't want
to waste my effort on a slew of new screenshots.
And also.... the screenshots on some of your pages, show the traditional
Bluecurve window borders, but the window borders in the latest Rawhide
releases are quite different. WHich goes on to the new Fedora? The
Rawhide version?
Ralston
Michael Schwendt wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:29:34 +0900, rg wrote:
>Also, if you guys are masking the Red Hat heritage of the 'distro', how
>is the average person supposed to even know that the logical follow up
>to RH9 is Fedora Project?
>
>
As you can imagine, a press release from Red Hat will announce that
separately when "Cambridge" is ready.
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/
Some users will look for Red Hat Linux 9.1 or 10 or whatever and will
learn that the successor of Red Hat Linux 9 is released with a
different name. Some will learn about the Fedora Project for the first
time.
>Or is it Fedora Core? Or maybe Fedora Coupe deVille.
>
>
One thing for sure, the community will call it "Fedora", because hardly
anyone will distinguish between the core distribution and "Fedora
Extras" type of add-on packages.
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/terminology.html
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/roadmap/
Really many of the questions that have come up on the mailing-lists
are answered somewhere on:
http://fedora.redhat.com
- --
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3:24 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:31:48 +0900, rg2 wrote:
OK, you missed some of my points, especially the Linux bit (what
happens
in the future if there is a Linux and BSD version?), but...
Don't expect me to quote everything you've written. I only quote and
reply to what I find relevant. Most of the questions you've raised
could be answered with "just wait and see".
Anyway, to the meat of the matter: is it correct-legal-acceptable in
printed materials (books, magazines, online articles etc) then, to refer
to what the user has or is putting on his or her machine, the Fedora
Project distro, as just Fedora.
With regard to Fedora trademark issues, the FAQ mentions that Fedora
Project trademark rules will be provided before the first release.
For example, "Once you have installed
Fedora, you can....," "Fedora allows you to.....," "If you are new to
Fedora, you will find..." and so on.
It is a matter of taste whether you call a product by its full name. I
would prefer the full name wherever it is necessary to avoid
ambiguities. With The Fedora Project, often the short-form "Fedora"
will be enough when referring to the project's products as a whole.
Red Hat seemed fussy on this point
in the past, insisting, as I recall, that Red Hat be referred to as Red
Hat Linux Operating System or, at least, Red Hat Linux, rather than Red
Hat.
That is a completely different thing. "Red Hat" is the name of the
company. "Red Hat Linux" is the name of one of its products. You would
never refer to installing "Microsoft" either.
- --
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4:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
Didn't mean to come across as testy. Sorry if I did. Focusing on my
confusion made me not focus on the tenor of what I was writing. Sorry
again. But at the same time, thanks for the answer. That old RedHat TM
usage guide guidelines got me so paranoid, but your point about it being
a different ball of wax (can of beans, gaggle of geese) makes me see
that I was missing the point of that doc a tad.
rg
(Michael Schwendt wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:31:48 +0900, rg2 wrote:
>OK, you missed some of my points, especially the Linux bit (what happens
>in the future if there is a Linux and BSD version?), but...
>
>
Don't expect me to quote everything you've written. I only quote and
reply to what I find relevant. Most of the questions you've raised
could be answered with "just wait and see".
>Anyway, to the meat of the matter: is it correct-legal-acceptable in
>printed materials (books, magazines, online articles etc) then, to refer
>to what the user has or is putting on his or her machine, the Fedora
>Project distro, as just Fedora.
>
>
With regard to Fedora trademark issues, the FAQ mentions that Fedora
Project trademark rules will be provided before the first release.
>For example, "Once you have installed
>Fedora, you can....," "Fedora allows you to.....," "If you are new
to
>Fedora, you will find..." and so on.
>
>
It is a matter of taste whether you call a product by its full name. I
would prefer the full name wherever it is necessary to avoid
ambiguities. With The Fedora Project, often the short-form "Fedora"
will be enough when referring to the project's products as a whole.
>Red Hat seemed fussy on this point
>in the past, insisting, as I recall, that Red Hat be referred to as Red
>Hat Linux Operating System or, at least, Red Hat Linux, rather than Red
>Hat.
>
>
That is a completely different thing. "Red Hat" is the name of the
company. "Red Hat Linux" is the name of one of its products. You would
never refer to installing "Microsoft" either.
- --
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7:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 20:31, rg2 wrote:
OK, you missed some of my points, especially the Linux bit (what
happens
in the future if there is a Linux and BSD version?), but...
Anyway, to the meat of the matter: is it correct-legal-acceptable in
printed materials (books, magazines, online articles etc) then, to refer
to what the user has or is putting on his or her machine, the Fedora
Project distro, as just Fedora. For example, "Once you have installed
Fedora, you can....," "Fedora allows you to.....," "If you are new to
Fedora, you will find..." and so on. Red Hat seemed fussy on this point
in the past, insisting, as I recall, that Red Hat be referred to as Red
Hat Linux Operating System or, at least, Red Hat Linux, rather than Red
Hat.
And, getting back to that icon of a hat on the GNOME menu that just
happens to be a red hat, not a Red Hat, is it going to stay? Don't want
to waste my effort on a slew of new screenshots.
I'd be pleased with a nice royal blue felt hat. ;)
Or maybe a hat color to go with the theme, with a Royal Blue one as the
'official standard' one. Picture RedCurve, BlueCurve, and other. ;)
--
Bill Anderson
RHCE #807302597505773
bill(a)noreboots.com
8:13 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
Bill Anderson wrote:
>And, getting back to that icon of a hat on the GNOME menu that
just
>happens to be a red hat, not a Red Hat, is it going to stay? Don't want
>to waste my effort on a slew of new screenshots.
>
>
I'd be pleased with a nice royal blue felt hat. ;)
Or maybe a hat color to go with the theme, with a Royal Blue one as the
'official standard' one. Picture RedCurve, BlueCurve, and other. ;)
I'm sure you'd look fine in a nice royal blue felt hat, perhaps with a
big feather stuck in it, but don't count on me for advice in that
regard- I don't really know what you look like, and the blue felt might
not suit you at all. Maybe a Hawaiian print? Wear at your own risk.
In the meanwhile, I am still looking for a simple answer to a pretty
simple questions that is not at all out of line or outside the realm of
things given the new renaming news. Everyone has their own angle on this
list and things they want or need to know - that's fair enough. :-P
rg
7:50 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 07:13, rg2 wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
>>And, getting back to that icon of a hat on the GNOME menu that just
>>happens to be a red hat, not a Red Hat, is it going to stay? Don't want
>>to waste my effort on a slew of new screenshots.
>>
>>
>
>I'd be pleased with a nice royal blue felt hat. ;)
>
>Or maybe a hat color to go with the theme, with a Royal Blue one as the
>'official standard' one. Picture RedCurve, BlueCurve, and other. ;)
>
>
>
I'm sure you'd look fine in a nice royal blue felt hat, perhaps with a
big feather stuck in it, but don't count on me for advice in that
regard- I don't really know what you look like, and the blue felt might
Well, up until last fall many fellow Linux people tell me I looked more
than a bit like Alan Cox ... may it was the hair to my waist and full
scraggly beard. ;)
--
Bill Anderson
RHCE #807302597505773
bill(a)noreboots.com
1:37 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 21:29, rg wrote:
JK, below, makes a good point. If you call it something as seemingly
abstract on the end user's end as xxx project, the average joe looking
for a Linux distro is likely to pass right over it. If said 'joe' does
not, and goes on to install it, he or she is most likely going to call
it Fedora Linux anyway. This abstraction in regard to naming because of
the possibility of a future BSD based release is beyond the average user
- the distinction is one for developers. Also, the naming of the
downloadable distro as Fedora Core, sounds more like a naming for the
kernel to the average joe; it does not sound like a full distro. Again,
this distinction seems more aimed at developers than end users.
The Fedora Project _is_ aimed more at developers, early adopters, and
other people that follow the open source world closely. It's not a home
desktop product, or a commercial product at all.
"Fedora Core" distinguishes the core from the Extras, Alternatives, etc.
- if you write "Fedora Linux" people might think that means the whole
pile of stuff hosted on the Fedora Project site so it's more confusing.
It looks like the installer for the next test release will say "Fedora
Core Test 1" or something like that and the splash screen says "Fedora
Core"
This points to a continuous failing in the Linux community at large -
while it pays lip service to end users, it is still too developer
oriented. Call it geek-oriented if you like, but the average end user
who puts Linux on his or her desktop is not interested in technical
nuances and possible future BSD releases - the average user doesn't even
know or care what BSD is.
Fedora Core doesn't pay lip service to home desktop users. It explicitly
says on the site that developers and open source enthusiasts and so
forth are the target audience.
Also, if you guys are masking the Red Hat heritage of the
'distro', how
is the average person supposed to even know that the logical follow up
to RH9 is Fedora Project?
They aren't supposed to know that, because for many people it isn't
true. See http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
Many people should be buying a commercial product. Don't make
assumptions about pricing or about retail, read the FAQ carefully on
that point.
Havoc
2:30 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
On Tuesday 23 September 2003 11:37, Havoc Pennington wrote:
They aren't supposed to know that, because for many people it
isn't
true. See http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
Many people should be buying a commercial product. Don't make
assumptions about pricing or about retail, read the FAQ carefully on
that point.
Great. Now when will RHEL become actually AFFORDABLE for
non-multimillion a year cooperations? When can I, as an IHV, actually
be able to sell RHEL w/out being hung up on and laughed at due to
extreme prices for the software, when said customer can go with many
many other cheaper solutions?
--
Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
http://geek.j2solutions.net
Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)
Was I helpful? Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating
2:39 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jesse Keating wrote:
| Great. Now when will RHEL become actually AFFORDABLE for
| non-multimillion a year cooperations? When can I, as an IHV, actually
| be able to sell RHEL w/out being hung up on and laughed at due to
| extreme prices for the software, when said customer can go with many
| many other cheaper solutions?
|
Hear, hear!
- --
- ----------
Doug Stewart
Systems Administrator/Web Applications Developer
Lockheed Martin Advanced Technology Labs
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
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7:44 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core, Fedora Project, Fedora/GNU, Fedora BSD, Fedora Coupe deVille, Fedora ala mode
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 15:30, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tuesday 23 September 2003 11:37, Havoc Pennington wrote:
> They aren't supposed to know that, because for many people it isn't
> true. See http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html
>
> Many people should be buying a commercial product. Don't make
> assumptions about pricing or about retail, read the FAQ carefully on
> that point.
Great. Now when will RHEL become actually AFFORDABLE for
non-multimillion a year cooperations? When can I, as an IHV, actually
be able to sell RHEL w/out being hung up on and laughed at due to
extreme prices for the software, when said customer can go with many
many other cheaper solutions?
I appreciate the question is probably rhetorical, but the right people
aren't on this list to answer it. You would want to talk to the IHV
relationship people, sales, etc.
Havoc
9:10 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
OK... Let me see if I have this straight.
We have an established Linux distribution suddenly shedding its
well-established name and discontinuing regular releases.
Who the hell let Darl McBride in the building?
--Doc Savage
Fairview Heights, IL
9:16 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 22:10, Robert G. (Doc) Savage wrote:
OK... Let me see if I have this straight.
We have an established Linux distribution suddenly shedding its
well-established name and discontinuing regular releases.
Who the hell let Darl McBride in the building?
At the risk of troll feeding - what is irregular about a 4-6month
release cycle?
There might be some bait-and-switch in the RHL->RHEL thing that's going
on but that's a different story altogether.
-sv
8:10 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
Robert G. (Doc) Savage said:
OK... Let me see if I have this straight.
I think you hitting a curve, not getting it straight.
We have an established Linux distribution suddenly shedding its
well-established name
It's Trademarked name. And everyone and their brother was complaining
because Red Hat had to defend that trademark, therefore couldn't let other
people distributing ISOs use it
8:22 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red Hat Linux?
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 22:10, Robert G. (Doc) Savage wrote:
OK... Let me see if I have this straight.
We have an established Linux distribution suddenly shedding its
well-established name and discontinuing regular releases.
We split the original single RHL product into a product (RHEL) and an
open source project (Fedora Project). There are now twice as many
releases. Neither Fedora Core nor RHEL are the same as RHL, but both are
descendants of the RHL code. Fedora Core is not a product as RHL was,
and has none of the guarantees of a commercial product; but also, it
should have more packages and be more up to date than RHL was. RHEL has
guarantees and features much more in line with what people traditionally
expect from an OS - it is much more supportable - but also, it is slower
moving and you have to pay for those guarantees.
By using the Fedora name, we allow different trademark guidelines for
this project (so there can be third-party CD vendors, for example) and
hopefully make it clear that it is not a product you can call Red Hat
and complain about.
Perhaps more importantly, changing the name indicates that the nature of
the thing has changed. It is no longer a commercial product, has some
different technical objectives, has a different release/update process,
and has a different development model. The Fedora Project is _not_ a
renamed Red Hat Linux, though like RHEL those are its historical roots.
By clearly dividing the commercial product from the open source project,
we have the freedom to do both of them well. Of course, history will
show whether we succeed.
Havoc
8:59 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
Havoc Pennington wrote:
has none of the guarantees of a commercial product; but also, it
should have more packages and be more up to date than RHL was. RHEL has
guarantees and features much more in line with what people traditionally
expect from an OS
It would be interesting to here from some 3rd party driver developers (liek
Nvidia, LSI Logic, etc) about this split. Wonder if they'll shy away from
Fedora driver support and only support RHEL. Sounds like a lot of
pro-linux hardware/software companies _need_ to be on the Fedora Steering
Committe. I see this as the new "United Linux" but with more openness for
ye who doesn't work for the 'man' ;-). Is there a petition going on right
now tying to get members of this new "United Linux"? Can we see who's
signed up so far and what they'd like their responsibilities be?
-eric wood
9:36 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
Eric Wood wrote:
Havoc Pennington wrote:
>has none of the guarantees of a commercial product; but also, it
>should have more packages and be more up to date than RHL was. RHEL has
>guarantees and features much more in line with what people traditionally
>expect from an OS
It would be interesting to here from some 3rd party driver developers (liek
Nvidia, LSI Logic, etc) about this split. Wonder if they'll shy away from
Fedora driver support and only support RHEL. Sounds like a lot of
pro-linux hardware/software companies _need_ to be on the Fedora Steering
Committe. I see this as the new "United Linux" but with more openness for
ye who doesn't work for the 'man' ;-). Is there a petition going on right
now tying to get members of this new "United Linux"? Can we see who's
signed up so far and what they'd like their responsibilities be?
They have problems as it is. The VIA people for instance released binary
drivers for their Mini-ITX's CastleRock video chip. In doing so, they
targetted RH 9, which meant kernel 2.4.20-8. What they didn't understand
is that RH will release new kernels (and are at 2.4.20-20-9) during the
lifecycle of a release, and things stopped working as soon as users
upgraded. Alan has those drivers in his AC series now, but that's
neither here nor there: when major bugs or security holes are found,
kernels are replaced, even on stable platforms. If you add to that the
desire to support other packagers like SuSE and Mandrake, or even
previous releases, things are still moving targets.
--
____ .:. ____
Bryan W. Headley - bwheadley(a)earthlink.net
9:36 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
They have problems as it is. The VIA people for instance released
binary
drivers for their Mini-ITX's CastleRock video chip. In doing so, they
targetted RH 9, which meant kernel 2.4.20-8. What they didn't understand
is that RH will release new kernels (and are at 2.4.20-20-9) during the
To be fair VIA *do* understand this. They are working to get stuff supported
in open source but released binary drivers in the mean time. There are
still a couple of tricky areas (video playback/macrovision and other
things the MPAA folks get fussy about) but the X server code is now not
just merged but thanks to Egbert as well all nicely polished and meeting
XFree86 policy.
Alan
10:11 a.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
Alan Cox wrote:
>They have problems as it is. The VIA people for instance released
binary
>drivers for their Mini-ITX's CastleRock video chip. In doing so, they
>targetted RH 9, which meant kernel 2.4.20-8. What they didn't understand
>is that RH will release new kernels (and are at 2.4.20-20-9) during the
To be fair VIA *do* understand this. They are working to get stuff supported
in open source but released binary drivers in the mean time.
The point is, people who do binary drivers will be cursed by platform
movement, not only with relatively new products (RH9, RHE, etc.) but
also older products (7.1, 8), as there's legacy support, whenever a
kernel is released for the given platform. They undertake similar risks
with Fedora as they will with RHE in the future.
--
____ .:. ____
Bryan W. Headley - bwheadley(a)earthlink.net
11:17 a.m.
New subject: 3rd Party vendors
3rd party vendors who do binary only items have been very much like the
retail outlets that people keep saying Red Hat didnt do enough for..
they want little change within 18-24 month segments (unless they are the
ones initiating the change). They want to push the same product for that
long and do not want to be told that within 6 months its all changed.
Stephen John Smoogen smoogen(a)lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Labrador CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 4-0645 (note new #)
Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S Los Alamos, NM 87545
-- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka --
2:52 p.m.
New subject: OK, so it's the Fedora Project, but is it still called Red HatLinux?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 10:11:31AM -0500, Bryan W. Headley wrote:
The point is, people who do binary drivers will be cursed by platform
movement, not only with relatively new products (RH9, RHE, etc.) but
also older products (7.1, 8), as there's legacy support, whenever a
kernel is released for the given platform. They undertake similar risks
with Fedora as they will with RHE in the future.
RHEL kernels won't be moving to whole new versions; we keep change
there to a minimum.
michaelkjohnson
"He that composes himself is wiser than he that composes a book."
Linux Application Development -- Ben Franklin
http://people.redhat.com/johnsonm/lad/
7486
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140 comments
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participants (50)
-
Alain -
Alan Cox -
Bill Anderson -
Bill Nottingham -
Bill Rugolsky Jr. -
Brent Fox -
Bryan W. Headley -
Christopher A. Williams -
Craig Ringer -
Daniel Wittenberg -
Dennis Gilmore -
Derek Meister -
Doug Stewart -
Edward C. Bailey -
Elton Woo -
Emmanuel Seyman -
Eric Wood -
Gordon Messmer -
Havoc Pennington -
Ian Pilcher -
Jesse Keating -
Jim Cornette -
John Wendel -
Justin Georgeson -
Leam Hall -
Magnus Hedemark -
Matthias Saou -
Maynard Kuona -
Michael Colligan -
Michael K. Johnson -
Michael Schwendt -
Mike A. Harris -
Mike Jang -
Panu Matilainen -
Pavel Rosenboim -
Phillip Compton -
Randall J. Parr -
Res -
rg -
rg2 -
Rik van Riel -
Robert G. (Doc) Savage -
Sean Estabrooks -
seth vidal -
Stephen Smoogen -
Thiago Vinhas de Moraes -
Thomas Dodd -
Vidyut Luther -
Warren Togami -
William Hooper