On Fedora's Localization platform
by Dimitris Glezos
Hey all,
I'll share some of my thoughts at this point.
*GIST*
- *Freedom* is more than just access to a tarball. What kinds of Freedom
is Fedora enjoying and giving up by using a platform like Transifex or
GitHub?
- What is the *Board's position* about using non-open-source but
open-friendly services? How much should we sacrifice to only run
open-source on our servers?
- Research thoroughly all possible solutions and find out what exactly
we'll be sacrificing and gaining. *Pootle* is much more trusted than
Zanata.
- Ask all key Fedora L10n people. Past and current.
- Any switch should be led by a technical Fedora localization person.
- The goal should be to make Fedora L10n a successful project. The tools
are just tools. The most important community features in Transifex have not
been used.
*BACKGROUND*
My contributions to Fedora nowadays are limited to supporting the L10n
project with our Transifex instance. I used to be a member of the Fedora
Board in the past. I see there's still the title "Fedora Localization Lead"
next to my name, but I suppose that's mostly because no one else took the
role. Today I basically make sure the community has what they need from
Transifex. I trust Piotr Drąg (raven) for any L10n leadership questions I
have.
Today a decision is being brewed on the basis that Transifex is not
open-source. As I mentioned, this is a discussion which needed to happen.
But I find the way it's being discussed disappointing to all the years of
hard work many individuals have put to establish a successful L10n platform
for Fedora (including my own). Many people in Fedora (and Transifex)
have *invested man
years to make this work*. We haven't even discussed "what are the key
things we need from our L10n platform"?
Following are my thoughts. I'm writing these with an effort to wear my
Fedora L10n hat as much as possible. But the POV does also include my roles
as Transifex's CEO, Fedora's Localization Infrastructure Lead for the past
6 years, and as one of the most experienced people on open-source
localization.
*ON FREEDOM*
When I was young I was looking at freedom in a different way. I was more an
open source zealot than today. I cared mostly about openness of the code.
It didn't matter if there was only one engineer hacking on the code. What
mattered was the license and little more.
Gradually I started realizing one of the reasons I loved Fedora was that it
valued highly quality and community participation. It valued relationships,
productivity, happiness, innovation. We valued meritocracy more than
democracy. Succeeding as a distributions was more than just having the
sources of packages.
*I'm not a fan of the spin put on Freedom in this discussion*. Fedora is
free to use Transifex forever. It's free to export all data at any point
(including all past translations and all the history of the translations so
far) to move to another platform. And it was free to use real people from
our team working on improving the platform constantly and adding new
features. I've met a lot of people in Fedora. The smartest ones knew very
well that *Freedom is not a one-colored attribute*.
*MIGRATING*
Migrating from one platform to another will have *major costs*. I led the
original migration from Elvis
<http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Archive:L10N/Tools/Plans> to Tx. It required
many meetings with stakeholders, research, experiments. In the end, *it
costed us more than half our translators*.
Assuming the Freedom discussion is resolved and the benefits of the
migration outweigh the costs. If I were leading this (and did not have a
vested interest in one platform...), the last thing I'd want, is to go
through the trouble of migrating, only to find out 5 key things we need are
missing. *Zero research was done* on the available tools out there and how
they stack with Transifex. Here are examples of research done by other
projects which came across my attention: One
<http://www.worddelights.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/developer-side-com...>
, Two
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqevw3Q-ErDUdFgzT3VNVXQxd095...>
.
Ask the Transifex team itself to tell us how they compare to the other
platforms on all key areas. Cover solutions like Pootle which are developed
in a very open matter. Put in a spreadsheet and compare thoroughly.
This is responsible project management 101.
*ZANATA*
Those who have been around a while saw the Zanata push from the Red Hat
teams coming with mathematical precision. Even when Transifex was being
fully developed as open source, Red Hat decided to develop Zanata in
parallel instead of investing in Transifex. This has always struck me as
mind-boggling, given that Transifex was born in Fedora's arms and quickly
became the most popular open-source localization platform.
It is all in good spirit and competition is good. I am holding no grudge
against Zanata. In fact, the Zanata team's efforts to grab Fedora in the
past has pushed Tx to innovate fast.
Having said this...
In terms of Freedom, out of all the localization platforms out there, and
given what I've seen the past years, Zanata is developed in one of the
least open ways. Which open-source projects are using Zanata? On zanata.org I
can see a bunch of test projects, a few Red Hat documentation ones and JBoss
<https://translate.jboss.org/> (also Red Hat's). Which other projects have
installed their own Zanata server and how many words are they translating?
*Pootle is a much more openly developed and widely accepted platform*. The
leads (Dwayne and Friedel) are true open-sourcers, their team is presenting
in many major open-source conferences, they're trusted by many large
open-source projects
<http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/live_servers> (Mozilla, Open
Office), proprietary ones (Evernote, Grooveshark, Rdio) and their feature
list <http://pootle.translatehouse.org/discover.html> is amazing. At FOSDEM
I'll go out for drinks with Friedel.
When there are tools like Pootle out there, why on Earth would Fedora even
consider Zanata? *Where is the research and comparison between the options
we have?*
*TRANSIFEX*
Transifex has 20+ people working full-time on the platform. A big chunk of
our time is invested on open-source, community projects
<https://www.transifex.com/customers/open-source/>. There are projects on
Tx with as many as 1 Billion words being translated by 14.000 people. Joomla
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnaypyaylxnausr/Screenshot%202014-07-17%2013.11...>
has
2.7K translators contributing on 250 projects.
If the goal is to have a *vibrant and successful Fedora Localization
Project*, then there are so many things to be done which make the "which
tool" discussion, quite frankly, stupid. Here are a couple:
- Use Transifex's Reports
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/o4htl010ieo38iw/Screenshot%202014-07-17%2012.40...>
to constantly recognize our most active translators. Send them a t-shirt or
even simply mention them in the release notes.
- Nurture teams
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dtubts36oxhk1q/Screenshot%202014-07-17%2012.46...>
by identifying inactive members and refreshing them.
- Help community members prioritize
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xbmbc2m1elmcva/Screenshot%202014-07-17%2012.49...>
which projects to translate first and remove old content.
Do we want a successful community L10n project? These are the things we
should be discussing. And these are some of the things the Transifex team
is investing on. "What does the roadmap look like" is a key question for
the research on which tool to choose (which never happened).
*ENDING THOUGHTS*
As a Fedora contributor, I'm expecting a discussion for such an important
topic to have higher responsibility than the one I've seen so far. This is
an extremely important topic which has no place for hastiness or egos.
I'd be happy to help and wear my Fedora hat.
-d
--
Dimitris Glezos
Founder & CEO, Transifex
https://www.transifex.com/
9 years, 9 months
Re: [Fedora] Plan Stage 0: Move to Zanata
by Marcelo Barbosa
Hi,
I created one bug about this environment>
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1120704
Thanks,
firemanxbr
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 6:15 AM, Pierre-Yves Chibon <pingou(a)pingoured.fr>
wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 06:11:16PM +1000, Sean Flanigan wrote:
> > On 2014-07-17 15:25, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:47:54AM +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> > >> (2014年07月17日 04:01), josefhruska(a)upcmail.cz wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> 16. červenec 2014 v 16:02 Noriko Mizumoto <noriko(a)fedoraproject.org
> >
> > >>> napsal(a):
> > >>>> Stage 1 - Establish fedora.zanata.org (FAS only instance)
> > >>>> Available at: TBA
> > >>>> Period: n/a
> > >>>> * This will contain only essential items, no history is imported.
> First
> > >>>> every language coordinator needs to create new account and become
> your
> > >>>> team coordinator. And then the coordinators will help and approve
> other
> > >>>> translators to join. Note, there is no auto or transparent
> migration.
> > >>> I am just courious if it means that users/translators that already
> have
> > >>> a zanata (FAS) account for translate.zanata.org will have to create
> > >>> another zanata account for fedora.zanata.org? I would obviously
> prefer
> > >>> if the former could be re-used for the fedora zanata instance.
> > >>> Thank you for providing any info, sooner or later.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for asking!
> > >> Yes, we will have to create new account, and can use exact same
> username.
> > >
> > > Just curious, should we ask the Zanata dev to integrate OpenID login?
> > > That would allow us to log-in with our Fedora credentials.
> >
> > In fact, Zanata does use OpenID to allow Fedora authentication (click
> > the Fedora option on the Log In screen). OpenID authentication is
> > enabled on https://translate.zanata.org/ and on the demo server at
> > https://localized-zanatatest.itos.redhat.com/
> >
> > We're also adding an option to configure a server so that it only allows
> > Fedora authentication, which we plan to use for fedora.zanata.org.
>
> Awesome :)
>
>
> Pierre
>
> _______________________________________________
> infrastructure mailing list
> infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
>
9 years, 9 months
Re: [zanata-users] [Fedora] Plan Stage 0: Move to Zanata
by Marcelo Barbosa
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for feedback, I was not finding the path, with his explanation
was easy, I'll translate for our entire community Zanata already see pt-BR.
Cheers,
firemanxbr
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Patrick Huang <pahuang(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> Hi Marcelo,
>
> Can you access this page
> https://translate.zanata.org/zanata/webtrans/Application.seam?project=zan...
> ?
> I can't see any problem in turns of your permission or project settings
> that will prevent you from accessing it. Are you having problem finding
> your way there?
>
> To access or translate that project in pt-BR, first go to the project
> "zanata-server", then click on version "master". There are 87 languages
> listed under Languages tab. You can click on the the pager at the bottom of
> the list to navigate to pt-BR or you can type it in the search right under
> Language tab heading. Once you see language pt-BR, click on it the right
> hand side will display document list of this project version. Click on any
> document (in this case just one) will open the translation editor as above
> linked.
>
> Let us know if you have any further problems.
>
> Regards,
>
> Patrick Huang
>
> Senior Software Engineer
> Engineering - Internationalisation
> Red Hat
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Marcelo Barbosa" <firemanxbr(a)fedoraproject.org>
> *To: *"Noriko Mizumoto" <noriko(a)fedoraproject.org>, "Fedora
> Infrastructure" <infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
> *Cc: *zanata-users(a)redhat.com, websites(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, "Fedora
> Translation Project List" <trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
> *Sent: *Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:50:04 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [zanata-users] [Fedora] Plan Stage 0: Move to Zanata
>
>
> Hi,
>
> How can we translate the Zanata to pt-BR ? When entering [1] we
> realized that we don't have access to pt-BR in the Group "Zanata" and in
> the project "Zanata server" we need to do some process?
>
> [1]: https://translate.zanata.org/
>
> Thanks,
>
> firemanxbr
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Noriko Mizumoto <
> noriko(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>> (This mail is cc'd to Infra and websites teams as this activity may
>> impact Infra and websites teams.)
>>
>> Hi all translators,
>>
>> With all suggestions/ideas/info posted by all of you, I had first meetup
>> with zanata team to draft a plan to start with. I like to share the news
>> I got from zanata team here. I will update the plan page with the
>> following information later tomorrow. The move will occur in parallel as
>> suggested. The communication channels with zanata team are zanata-users
>> ML [1] and #zanata channel on freenode. Due to the limited
>> capacity/resource of zanata team, posting to ML would be appreciated
>> than pinging on irc.
>> I thank you so much to Zanata team!
>>
>> Stage 0 - Establish Test Instance on Openshift
>> Available at: localized-zanatatest.itos.redhat.com
>> Period: 4 weeks
>> * This is trial run. Log in with FAS account and create new zanata
>> account, and play. It is important to be loud and file a bug for any
>> request [1]. Please make sure to append "[Fedora]" at the beginning of
>> the subject. This will give a bug priority ;p
>> E.g. [Fedora] Organization feature is needed.
>>
>> Stage 1 - Establish fedora.zanata.org (FAS only instance)
>> Available at: TBA
>> Period: n/a
>> * This will contain only essential items, no history is imported. First
>> every language coordinator needs to create new account and become your
>> team coordinator. And then the coordinators will help and approve other
>> translators to join. Note, there is no auto or transparent migration.
>>
>> Stage 2 - Import history and Add features requested
>> Available at: TBA
>> Period: n/a
>> * History (such as reviewed marks, notification, translator credit per
>> msg) and any additional feature requested (and approved) will be
>> migrated. It is essential to evaluate and decide what level of history
>> to be imported (or may be given up).
>>
>> [1]:https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Zanata
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> noriko
>> _______________________________________________
>> infrastructure mailing list
>> infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> zanata-users mailing list
> zanata-users(a)redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/zanata-users
>
>
>
9 years, 9 months
Re: Transifex has become proprietary
by Robyn Bergeron
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fenzi" <kevin(a)scrye.com>
> To: infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Friday, July 4, 2014 9:53:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Transifex has become proprietary
>
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 10:11:45 +0200
> Pierre-Yves Chibon <pingou(a)pingoured.fr> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 03, 2014 at 10:25:41AM -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Pierre-Yves ChibonA wrote:
> > >
> > > What are they?
> > >
> > > I haven't spent a lot of time looking up alternatives but I am
> > > aware of the following:
> > >
> > > http://zanata.org/ developed by Red Hat
> > >
> > > Translatewiki which is apparently what MediaGoblin is considering
> > >
> > > https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/913
> >
> > For the record, I support the move away from Transifex and will relay
> > the sad news to the projects where I have before advice for it.
> >
> > The question is of course moving to what? That's something I cannot
> > advice on atm.
>
> Yeah. There's also some more mentioned in the above mediagoblin ticket.
>
> Would someone care to look at them all and provide some summary about
> each and how well they might work for our needs?
Copying the trans list since they probably have some good input about their needs :) (And nothing on this topic in their archives, not sure how much overlap between these two lists.)
For the translations team's reference - https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/infrastructure/2014-July/014475... is the original mail Rahul posted on the subject.
-Robyn
>
> kevin
>
> _______________________________________________
> infrastructure mailing list
> infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
9 years, 9 months
hi
by zlanja nja
i can not find a group in witch croation lenguage belong. tnx
--
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the
brave.
...
9 years, 9 months
Fwd: Re: Request of workshop or hackfest for Localization team in Flock 2014
by Noriko Mizumoto
Hi all
I got reply on the workshop request at Flock 2014.
How many of you are interested to join unofficial gathering?
TQSG edits, what is zanata, and detail of the move to zanta are on the
table.
How can we utilize this opportunity being offered?
I may or may not join, and would like to know how I can help you
interested here.
noriko
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Request of workshop or hackfest for Localization team in
Flock 2014
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 09:40:50 -0400
From: Tom Callaway <tcallawa(a)redhat.com>
To: noriko(a)redhat.com, flockinfo(a)fedoraproject.org
CC: Ruth Suehle <rsuehle(a)redhat.com>, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)redhat.com>
On 07/15/2014 11:15 PM, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am Noriko Mizumoto, from Fedora Localization Project.
> I am writing to ask a chance to have a workshop or hackfest for
> Localization team in Flock 2014.
Unfortunately, our schedule is now locked. We rejected a number of
workshop submissions that came in before the deadline, and it would not
be appropriate to accept any late submissions.
However, we will have some open rooms for "unofficial" gatherings, and
you are welcome to use that space as it is available at Flock.
Apologies,
~tom
==
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º> OSAS @ Red Hat
University Outreach || Fedora Special Projects || Fedora Legal
9 years, 9 months
Re: [Fedora] Plan Stage 0: Move to Zanata
by Sean Flanigan
On 2014-07-17 15:25, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:47:54AM +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>> (2014年07月17日 04:01), josefhruska(a)upcmail.cz wrote:
>>>
>>>> 16. červenec 2014 v 16:02 Noriko Mizumoto <noriko(a)fedoraproject.org>
>>> napsal(a):
>>>> Stage 1 - Establish fedora.zanata.org (FAS only instance)
>>>> Available at: TBA
>>>> Period: n/a
>>>> * This will contain only essential items, no history is imported. First
>>>> every language coordinator needs to create new account and become your
>>>> team coordinator. And then the coordinators will help and approve other
>>>> translators to join. Note, there is no auto or transparent migration.
>>> I am just courious if it means that users/translators that already have
>>> a zanata (FAS) account for translate.zanata.org will have to create
>>> another zanata account for fedora.zanata.org? I would obviously prefer
>>> if the former could be re-used for the fedora zanata instance.
>>> Thank you for providing any info, sooner or later.
>>
>> Thanks for asking!
>> Yes, we will have to create new account, and can use exact same username.
>
> Just curious, should we ask the Zanata dev to integrate OpenID login?
> That would allow us to log-in with our Fedora credentials.
In fact, Zanata does use OpenID to allow Fedora authentication (click
the Fedora option on the Log In screen). OpenID authentication is
enabled on https://translate.zanata.org/ and on the demo server at
https://localized-zanatatest.itos.redhat.com/
We're also adding an option to configure a server so that it only allows
Fedora authentication, which we plan to use for fedora.zanata.org.
--
Sean Flanigan
Senior Software Engineer
Engineering - Internationalisation
Red Hat
9 years, 9 months
