On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Tim Evans <tkevans(a)tkevans.com&gt; wrote: PackageKit and dnf keep separate metadata in /var/cache and they update periodically. PackageKit seems to do this on login, but I've also noticed it trigger an update when I switch networks. And dnf is on a timer. Either of them can use a lot of cpu, it just depends on how much updating they need. Recently I've been experimenting with cgroups to restrict the amount of cpu packagekit gets via the packagekit.service unit. i.e. this is a service unit specific restriction, not on all instances of packagekit. Thus it doesn't affect offline updates, where it can still use 100% cpu if need be. But, it's possible GNOME Software could be a bit slower since it uses packagekit, though I haven't noticed any ill effect so far. $ sudo systemctl edit packagekit.service Read the file that appears and insert these two lines where it says to: [Service] CPUQuota=25% Save it out, and when the unit restarts (logout and login or do the daemon-reload followed by service restart dance) you'll see packagekit uses this value as a maximum. -- Chris Murphy

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 12:25, Tim Evans <tkevans(a)tkevans.com&gt; wrote: Many of the younger linux users I encounter came to linux from Windows because a mission critical application requires linux. Some have only used the command line after Google told them to run "sudo <some_application_giving_access_denied>" resulting in a badly broken system with some user files owned by root or data saved in root's home directory. Ask for a directory listing and you get a file manager image. For this group, dnf is not an option. The Gnome software manager has the added advantages that it a) forces a reboot and b) offers flatpak versions of major applications. Because I work with this class of users, I try to stick with Gnome's GUI software manager, but I'm not always patient enough to let it grind away for long periods. Before I retired my work included running afternoon practicals for 2-week workshops. Earlier workshops used systems set up in advance, but users struggled to get the software working when they returned to their home labs. The first two afternoons were devoted to linux command-line basics and applying those to install and configure the software on user's laptops. Unfortunately, such workshops can only reach a small number of users. There are online courses with similar content, but dropout rates are high, probably related to users struggling with the command-line. For in-person workshops we handled some problematic procedures using one-on-one instruction, then having the first learners become teachers for the remaining students. I think there is work underway to develop remote learning environments that have provisions for teaching assistant office hours and breakouts into small groups. -- George N. White III

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 14:00, Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us&gt; wrote: The forums for some of the mission critical applications have seen cases where users were told to install an updated distro package. User then reports that the update had no effect (because the old library is still being used) and proceeds to run wild reinstalling the OS from scratch, etc. Forums get blamed for recommending updates that trashed the users system. Among my colleagues, Ubuntu and derivative distros are very widely used, especially outside N. America. Many of the sites that use Fedora do so because the heavy lifting is done on RHEL or derivative rpm-based distros and HPC hardware. As long as the Gnome software manager doesn't get in the way of doing updates with DNF, you should be able to leave it to the users who insist on doing everything with GUI's. When dealing with armies of "untrained" users, we need simple default updating workflows, even at a cost of users' time. Requiring a reboot simplifies troubleshooting and minimizes opportunities for misguided and unrecoverable user problem solving. -- George N. White III

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 14:29:33 -0600 Joe Zeff wrote: I use ubuntu on the little computer I have running my 3D printer so I can run the LTS release and not worry about upgrading every 6 months. I just had a problem with the latest kernel and wanted to remove the most recent installed kernel. If there was some fancy GUI way to do that I sure couldn't find it. Took hours of google searches to get rid of it.

On 6/22/21 9:59 PM, Tim via users wrote: Last time I looked, they still thought that if a version had reached EOL and was no longer supported that it meant that they weren't allowed to give you any assistance other than to tell you to upgrade to a supported version.

On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 22:34 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: Interesting. That sounds superficially similar to Android's A/B system update method. Is there work being done on getting this into Fedora? poc

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:44 AM Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.comwrote: Folks are looking at multiple ways of doing it. All options imply some kind of layout change, and we need to consider upgrades. It has to work for dnf and PackageKit, etc. -- Chris Murphy

On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 13:29 -0300, George N. White III wrote: The crabby me wonders whether such people ever grasp using a computer without breaking it? Long ago I gave up helping such users by no- longer continually fixing their broken Windows, those people never got it. I liken it to be asked to unblock their sewers with bare hands. For me, giving semi-clueless users a copy and paste command line solution has had far more predictable results than trying to talk them through the steps to use any graphical system. It's painful trying to tell them to do some step, wait while they describe something that else that they've done instead of what you told them to do, try to figure out what they've really done, and try again... Stop clicking on random things trying to see if that'll magically make things work and actually just do *only* what I say... See that thing called mouse prefs, click on it. I can't see it, what if I do this (unrelated thing), instead? No, stop clicking on things, just read through all the options, not out loud to me, I don't want to know everything on the computer, I want you to find the mouse preferences icon in the window. I can't find it.... Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (channelling Luke Skywalker). It shouldn't take 45 minutes of talking over the phone just to open the damn mouse preferences. Never mind actually change any settings. Have you still got the box? Yes. Unplug the computer and put it back in it. These are the same kind of people that'd dump all the books in the library in a random pile on the floor because they can't understand how to use a shelving system. Gawd help us if the clueless would like to practice first aid, despite all evidence to the contrary that they're not competent to do so. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.31.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jun 10 13:32:12 UTC 2021 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.

Tim: Joe Zeff: Exactly! I still get asked if I can recommend anti-virus software, and I reply that I haven't touched Windows in years, I don't need it on my computers, so I've no info on current anti-virus software. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.31.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jun 10 13:32:12 UTC 2021 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Tim Evans wrote: I don't know a lot about Packagekit, or anything else really. But I will take this chance to complain again. When rebooting or shutting down my laptop, many times the process is delayed (up to 1.5 minutes) and it displays its waiting for a Packagekit job to finish. Thats really annoying and I have not suffered from anything similar on Linux before. Just saying, if anyone knows of a solution for this, Im all ears. thanks,

On 6/22/21 11:44 PM, Tim via users wrote: Which is what I (the OP) asked about, and have now done. I don't use the Gnome software application for anything, so have disabled its underlying packagekit. It's irrelevant now for me, but I will note that this runaway CPU-usage thing has just come up in the past week or 10 days, so wonder if something has changed in packagekit? And, FWIW, I fought and lost my first UNIX/Windows battle 30 years ago. sorry to have crossed into this No Man's Land once again... -- Tim Evans | 5 Chestnut Court 443-394-3864 | Owings Mills, MD 21117

On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 09:54 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: Yes, that was my impetus to kill it rather than just ignore it. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.31.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jun 10 13:32:12 UTC 2021 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.