11:29 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
> full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> shit they put in the software.
>
> Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
> in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
> due to the lack of technology...
I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
often flying solo...
Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
"standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
up with it not working right.
So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
damn drug produced by M$.
And there is addiction through and through.
Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
the consumer has to buy another one.
I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
and get outdoors or whatever.
In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
10:53 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not
put to
full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
shit they put in the software.
Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
due to the lack of technology...
I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
often flying solo...
Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
"standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
up with it not working right.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
11:24 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 08:38 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
> >On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:31 +1030, Tim wrote:
> >> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
> >> code, and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> >> corrections, then type the changes back in.
> >
> >No kidding?
> >
> >That's awesome!!!
> >
> >Manuel.
>
> You are easily impressed I take it. That's exactly how I wrote code for
> an application that involved commercial video tape preparation for on air
> use with a very early automatic station break machine. For an RCA 1802
> cpu, where I didn't even have an assembler, I was looking up the hex code
> in the programmers manual and entering it with a hex editor. This was in
> 1978. I also built the Quest Super Elf 'computer' from a kit that it ran
> on, and all the interfacing hardware including the video to control the
> then state of the art Sony 28xx u-matic video tape machines. I used less
> than 2k of the 4k of static ram it had, and which cost nearly 400 dollars
> then. That code, and that machine were still in use at that tv station in
> Redding CA, in 1994, and they had no plans to replace it with something
> newer then! When I went on down the road, I left a paper copy of the
> code, with instructions on how to adjust its timing to match the motion
> ballistics of any newer machine they hooked up to it.
>
> The next time I wrote code with an extended lifetime like that, was on a
> TRS-80 Color Computer running OS9 level 1, with device drivers in assembly
> using an assembler, and the main portion in Basic-09. That function was
> in place of a $20,000 Grass Valley Group E-DISK package that our first GVG
> 300-2A/B production video switcher didn't come with. It outperformed that
> $20k unit by 4x in speed, and gave the operators english language names
> for their individual 'bags of tricks' files whereas the GVG used 2 digit
> hex codes for the filenames. That was in 1989, and was used continuously
> to 2003 when that switcher was finally replaced with something a little
> 'greener'.
>
> Because I could each into that switchers data paths so easily with it,
> there were many times that to troubleshoot the switcher, I would reach
> into it with little 10 line code snippets and tickle a specific function
> to see if it was working correctly, and based on its responses, go replace
> a failed chip to restore a failed operation.
>
> That's code with long, useful lifetimes. You live intimately with it day
> after day, fixing the glitches until there are no more bugs left to fix,
> it Just Works(TM). How long does perfectly good code last today? Maybe 3
> years till its thrown out like the baby with the bath water for some
> reason this now old fart fails to grok.
>
> I'll give you mplayer as a perfect example. Or xmms, just to name 2 apps
> that because they worked so well, now seem to be something bad, and must
> be replaced with something that doesn't work, like pulseaudio, whatever
> the hell it is, apparently just to give someone a new container of bugs to
> fix, whatever. All I know is that since I had to re-install due to a
> failed drive over the weekend, the only noise I get is the system beep,
> and my machine will be otherwise mute until I rip it out again. We put
> that on cornfields in Iowa to grow taller corn.
>
> What is the usual fix for the pulseaudio induced silence?
Well, that's an interesting and amazing story I have to tell you, but
Tim was the first one showing his cards, that's why he got all my love,
just kidding :-)
I'm only 24, actually today's my birthday, (money accepted) so I'm not
used to all those rudimentary process when writing code for whatever you
need (do not take me wrong, that seems amazing, and I wish I could have
lived during the 60-80, all the most amazing things regarding to
computing took place those years, from my point of view.)
The oldest thing I have coded in was ADA and Haskell (which is horrible,
by the way) when I got in college (aside from the typical qbasic, you
know...)
Talking about xmms.....I still use it, It does exactly what I want, just
play music, I don't need anything else, therefore I do not run rhythmbox
or any other music tool.
Thanks for sharing that great story!
Manuel.
You're most welcome, Manuel, and tip one up for me as my diabetes doesn't
allow a lot of that anymore. And yes, I do agree, the 60's through the 80's
were the (to me anyway) golden age of innovation, everything we've done since
has been largely fine tuning. In fact, in 1960, I was a tech at a little 6
or 8 man startup called Oceanographic Engineering, with offices and
multi-purpose shop in a roughly 50 by 50 building with San Diego's Mission
Bay at the end of the back yard. TPTB had bought a camera schematic from a
guy at NBC, and was busy turning it into a 2.5" diameter thing with an idea
of leasing it to municipalities for sewer inspections. One bright Monday
morning the front door opened and a lot of Navy gold walked in and wanted to
see what we had, which at that point was the typical breadboard thing with
parts hanging out all over it, but it was working reasonably well at that
point.
They were impressed with the pix on the monitors just from the rooms
illumination, but asked about its low light performance, so the EE type
picked it up carefully and pulled a bench drawer open, setting it in the
drawer and then closing the drawer on the piece of RG-59 that both powered it
and returned the video. So there wasn't a whole lot of light getting into
that drawer, but about a second after the drawer closed, the monitor bloomed
and settled, showing us the grain pattern of the plywood back of the drawer
quite well. The officer with the most gold said "sold, lets go to the office
for a cup and some dickering."
When they were done, we were committed to make 2 of them, with the navy
supplying the quartz windows for the front of the pressure cases that we
would make to their specs, along with suitable controls, pan & tilt
assemblies etc, and BTW, it all had to run on 12 volts, with only 6 wires
going through the bulkhead to do all that.
The "bulkhead" turned out to be the gondola of the Trieste. So cameras I
helped assemble, and had my fingerprints in them, went on the Trieste a few
months later, and were used in February 1961 when the Trieste made its only
trip down to the bottom of the mohole, that 37k feet deep trench in the
pacific ocean floor located off the Phillipine(sp?) Islands. Jacques
Cousteau was one of the two guys in that 6 foot diameter ball, and I may have
met him but didn't of course know that he was going to be so famous later.
With the exterior pressure at about 18k psi at that depth, there is no way in
hell I would have gone down there.
BTW, water IS compressible in case you've heard otherwise. The Trieste ran on
common, off the shelf Sears Die-Hard auto batteries, a couple of ton of them,
and each battery's cell cap had been removed, the cell filled with acid to
the top, and a cup or so of battery acid in a heavy balloon was snapped over
the neck of the cell, then caged in SS woven hardware cloth to keep water
currents from ripping them loose. One of the pix they brought back was of a
bank those batteries, and those balloons were nowhere in sight, the acid had
compressed and they were pressed down inside the top of the battery. The
batteries of course didn't care what the pressure was, they Just Worked(TM)
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
No man is an island, but some of us are long peninsulas.
1:48 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, Chris wrote:
Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
> El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
>> Read article
>
> That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face everyday.
> I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as I've
> been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no mac
> experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running by a dumb
> administrator.
> It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be hacked
> than a windows in the same situation.
>
> But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real scenario.
>
> Anyways, I'm glad Linux survived, do not take me wrong :-)
> Manuel
Let's also not forget the most important part of the article - it mentioned
something about Java allowing MS security to be circumvented.
That leads me to think that if Java was not installed on that box, would it
have been hacked?
If you don't want to install Java you need to tell us what alternative is
going to provide better security. Many developers use Java because the
work needed to implement the functionality (including the attention to
security issues) would be prohibitive.
MS was chosen for this attack because the person who knew the Java
exploit also happened to be familiar with MS. Such attacks often
proceed in stages:
1. get user-level access via a browser, java, etc.
2. elevate to "admin/root" privileges, which is where knowledge of
the specific OS comes in.
Often the 1st step works on multiple platforms.
Perhaps not. So, I think the article is very misleading. To me, I
could care
either way. as pointed out else where in this thread, a properly patched and
managed box (under any OS) can be very difficult to hack.
Or not, if you happen to know of an unpatched vulnerability.
I wonder why (at least in this article) OpenBSD was not mentioned.
Perhaps it
was just a session that was betwix Linux & MS.
OS X was the first to fall (via safari), so the BSD camp didn't fare very
well.
--
George N. White III <aa056(a)chebucto.ns.ca>
8:46 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 23:44 +0100, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
On Thursday 03 April 2008 23:06:44 Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:25 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> > It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek
> > program on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence
> > building at school. It was over 10 stories long.
> >
> > We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
> > had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for
> > us. :)
>
> I would have thought paper tape to be more reliable than plastic tape.
> No stretching, no striction, reversable and relocatable for a re-read,
> repairable by your engineers when someone breaks it, duplicatable
> through various direct methods without degradation of data.
>
Yes, we had a very, very short-lived trial with cassettes for exactly the
reasons you mention. We went on to these new-fangled floppy discs with a huge
capacity of just over 100k bytes. We carried on using paper tapes for a
while, just to be sure. We were real men though and had to repair our own
tapes. It was tough in those days.
The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e and then
loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a mistake
hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the paper
tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you were
in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or so
cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was rated
at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it still
took a long time to load a big programme.
Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the lives
of the when-we's.
Nick
Ah, yes... I used to dread the infamous tape break. We even had the
little template thingy that you could put the two ends into to help get
the magic tape on the right way. But I was invariably too clumsy and
ended up with one of those dreaded wrinkles that would slide the tape
sideways at the most inopportune time (like after 3/4 of a long program
had been read in.) So I would usually patch the the tape, then dupe it
so I had a "real working copy" because the duplicator would deal with
the wrinkle much better (but more slowly if possible).
Regards,
Les H
1:19 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 06:59 +1030, Tim wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
> a version of BASIC that for several operating systems.
And wasn't it awful... I know BASIC's sneered upon, as there are plenty
of better things, but BASIC was a simple starting position for a lot of
people. It was also the only system available for a lot of home
personal computing, for a long time. Though, it typically was a very
feature limited interpreter. We had it on a Data General mainframe,
amongst other languages, and that went in the opposite direction - very
featured, and gave you very verbose and lengthy error reports about your
syntax errors.
Many years ago I can remember tinkering around with Microsoft's BASIC on
the Amiga, since it was the only programming language I had to play with
on it, at the time. And actually managing to make a small relational
database with it, even though it hardly has the features that you need
for something like that. It wasn't anything really complex though, just
interrelated databases of services, clients, quotes, and the ability to
turn a quote into an invoice.
cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
1:15 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 07:45 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Les wrote:
> > Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
> > (still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
> > Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
> > systems that ran various other OS's
> > that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
> > which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
> > flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers,
> > they just got the contract to write the OS for IBM, and were able to
> > bootstrap that into the corporation you see today.
> >
> Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
> a version of BASIC that for several operating systems. I can
> remember loading it from tape, and later burning it to EPROM with a
> small relocation program to move it into RAM at the address it
> expected to run. (It was not relocatable...)
----
I have that tape still...
Microsoft's version for Apple...called 'Floating Point Basic Language'
for Apple ][ because my original Apple ][ had integer basic in ROM and
Floating Point Basic had to be loaded from a cassette. I do sort of
wonder if it has any value.
THAT's the one I had, what a pirating tool it was, too!! Heheheh, just
note the starting address of a binary program loaded into memory, note
the length, and save it to tape after hitting the reset button. Then
we'd load up a real system disk, reload the program back from tape and
"bsave" it to a floppy, noting the start and length parameters, and you
had that sucker. God only knows how many space games we liberated from
copy-protected disks. Then, Jobs decided to make the Apple][+, so there
would be no more pirating shenanigans. Right. We made eprom copies of
the original integer basic roms to load into the plus machines. Those
were the good-ole days, for sure. I still have a cassette copy of the
Apple floating point basic, too. I wish I had kept the Red and Blue
Books. Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
9:12 p.m.
Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 06:59 +1030, Tim wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>> Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
>> a version of BASIC that for several operating systems.
> And wasn't it awful... I know BASIC's sneered upon, as there are plenty
> of better things, but BASIC was a simple starting position for a lot of
> people. It was also the only system available for a lot of home
> personal computing, for a long time. Though, it typically was a very
> feature limited interpreter. We had it on a Data General mainframe,
> amongst other languages, and that went in the opposite direction - very
> featured, and gave you very verbose and lengthy error reports about your
> syntax errors.
>
> Many years ago I can remember tinkering around with Microsoft's BASIC on
> the Amiga, since it was the only programming language I had to play with
> on it, at the time. And actually managing to make a small relational
> database with it, even though it hardly has the features that you need
> for something like that. It wasn't anything really complex though, just
> interrelated databases of services, clients, quotes, and the ability to
> turn a quote into an invoice.
cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
Ken Olson).
I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
(as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
scatterbrained at times).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer rps2(a)nerd.com -
- Hosting Consulting, Inc. -
- -
- Do you know how to save five drowning lawyers? No? GOOD! -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
12:44 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 3:56 AM, Manuel Aróstegui <manuel(a)todo-linux.com> wrote:
El dom, 30-03-2008 a las 20:13 +1030, Tim escribió:
> On Sat, 2008-03-29 at 19:04 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > I blame Microsoft and all the geeks who seem to feel for being geeks
> > and want to dumb everything down.
>
> Those of us who remember personal computing before Microsoft was but
> tiny company would probably agree that it was a bad idea to make
> computers something the ignorant could play with, they used to be the
> domain of experts and people actually interested in computing. Computer
> systems need to be much better designed before it's going to be okay for
> toy computing, both to protect the ignorant, and everyone else that they
> interfere with.
Yep, that's why I think that having a good windows administrator and a noob running
a Linux server
you'll have more possibilities to hack the linux machine than the
Windows one.
Again, out of the box and running both systems by default, it is obvious
that Windows is going to suffer mucho more to keep itself clean.
Arthur, this is the third time I say that I'm GLAD that they didn't hack
the Linux box, but it doesn't mean that Linux is invincible and Windows
can be easily hacked by a dog.
There are probably out there servers owned by really good Windows
sysadmins which are truly difficult to get compromised, and servers
owned by dumb Linux sysadmins that get hacked every single week.
I still agree with you.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
10:42 a.m.
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 10:02 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 08:25 +1030, Tim wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 20:54 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > In some ways both views have pros and cons. But consider the
> > possibilities that have opened up for humankind in general from this
> > one technology.
>
> Yeah, technical support lines, anti-virus companies, spam...
>
> I view being asked to fix someone's PC like they'd just asked me to
> unblock their loo with my bare hands.
>
I agree (to a point), and that was hardly the point I was making. If
computers weren't as widespread, then I can bet your user base would
probably not even exist. We'd still be on mainframes with dumb
terminals, and few services actually requiring to be run- ergo, less
employment for sysadmins.
And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Take time to consider where
life might have gone if your scenario had taken place, and be thankful
that it has turned out this way- your analogy just may have been a
literal possibility.
Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
(still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
systems that ran various other OS's
that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers,
they just got the contract to write the OS for IBM, and were able to
bootstrap that into the corporation you see today.
And before the but you couldn't wars start, I played games, did
graphics, edited documents, wrote a compiler, wrote an assembler and
created my own tape operating system on the Altair. Yes, it was slow.
Yes, it did have limitations in storage (128K total, separate data and
instruction memory, tape or 5.25 floppy, and other limitations of the
technology of the time), but Microsoft didn't exist yet. Microsoft
started in 1975. I owned these machines prior to that.
Mainframes known limitations, issues with remote booting, problems with
distributed software and shared
databases pushed people to find better ways, and there were many
software packages developed for CP/M, including compilers, IDE's, and
window type interfaces prior to Windows.
Regards,
Les H
9:13 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Tim wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 08:38 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The next time I wrote code with an extended lifetime like that, was on a
> TRS-80 Color Computer running OS9 level 1, with device drivers in assembly
> using an assembler, and the main portion in Basic-09. That function was
> in place of a $20,000 Grass Valley Group E-DISK package that our first GVG
> 300-2A/B production video switcher didn't come with. It outperformed that
> $20k unit by 4x in speed, and gave the operators english language names
> for their individual 'bags of tricks' files whereas the GVG used 2 digit
> hex codes for the filenames.
And back then, you could expect your equipment to come with manuals that
explained the tricks that could be done with their gear. e.g. If it had
a serial or parallel port, the pins would documented, the function codes
would be listed... Or, the sales division would get you the books for
it.
Now, everything's a black box. One client's bought this Roland,
allegedly high-definition, digital video mixer (hi-def my left foot!,
that means high definition, not just able to output low-resolution video
with more pixels...). It has a port for the tally interface, that
mentions nothing about how to actually use it. Sure, it lists several
pins that you could have a tally signal on, depending on what mode its
in. But nothing that defines what the modes are, nor the output
voltages (TTL?, CMOS?, open-collector?, active low?).
Yeah Tim, but Panasonic, in the Techniques line of audio gear, copyrighted
that BS back about 1978, equiping their fawnciest RS-1520 1/4" multitrack
audio tape machine with a 9 pin octal interface plug for remote controls, but
if you wanted to use it, you had to buy THEIR $200 remote pendant. No docs.
And the schematics made it a weeks study to figure out that all it needed was
a contact closure to start it to record. I was automating the weather report
capture from the weather bureau. Worked a treat too. That was, in its day,
THE technological tour-de-force in audio tape machines. It could lay a 1%
distortion signal on the average roll of tape 10db louder than the best a
Studer/Revox could do, 70 db snr at 7.5 ips in 2 track stereo, 67 db in 4
track mode. When the heads were clean, 15 kilohertz bandwidth at 3.75 ips.
Bi-directional and handled 14" reels better than any other machine I ever
saw. You flat could not get it to dump tape on the floor, period.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
<viro> "scanf is tough" -- programmer Barbie...
- Al Viro on #kernelnewbies
1:02 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
i recall my 1st use of a time share on the local university's machine..
my 7th grade math teach was taking colleges courses, in like 1972.. and she
had access to a tele-type machine with the dialup phone couple hooked to the
machine...
the machine created rollup punched out paper spools that we had written our
"basic" programs on....
i thought punch cards were a step up when i got into college later on!
i say all this as i cruise on a 4G-Mem/250G-Drive/17" laptop on a fast
wireless network!
my god i'm old!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Les
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:10 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down
inflames
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
>
>
> */Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:
>
> Tim:
> >> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>
> Les:
> > I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>
> If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
> counts.
>
> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
> code,
> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>
> Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how
they
> had to make the valves and warm them up before starting...
;-)
>
> =========
>
> Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
>
> Dropped a pile of them once.
>
> That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
> on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
> punch card machine
Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
~~R
Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
Regards,
Les H
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
-----Original Message-----
From: bruce [mailto:bedouglas@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:03 PM
i recall my 1st use of a time share on the local university's machine..
my 7th grade math teach was taking colleges courses, in like 1972.. and
she
had access to a tele-type machine with the dialup phone couple hooked to
the
machine...
the machine created rollup punched out paper spools that we had written
our
"basic" programs on....
i thought punch cards were a step up when i got into college later on!
Punch cards were also my introduction to computing in college. All the
technology, the lights, the noise...
Very exciting, in a dull sense,
And then there was the Sinclair Spectrum.
my god i'm old!!!
I even remember gazing at a computer room with my mouth watering, impressed
with all the people wearing white lab coats!!
And then there was the geek.
Emanuel
----
Emanuel Machado, PhD.
Senior Engineer, Project Leader
Cytonome, Inc.
27 Drydock Ave
Boston, MA 02210
Voice: (617) 330-5030 ext. 237
Fax: (617) 330-5031
Website: www.cytonome.com
Email: Emanuel-Machado(a)cytonome.com
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Les
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:10 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down
inflames
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
> >
> >
> > */Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:
> >
> > Tim:
> > >> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
> >
> > Les:
> > > I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the
test?
> >
> > If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer,
that
> > counts.
> >
> > Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
> > code,
> > and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> > corrections, then type the changes back in.
> >
> > Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how
they
> > had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
> >
> > =========
> >
> > Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
> >
> > Dropped a pile of them once.
> >
> > That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence
numbers
> > on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
> > punch card machine
> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
>
> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
>
> ~~R
>
Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
Regards,
Les H
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
1:28 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:20 -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:56:54 -0500
"Mikkel L. Ellertson" <mikkel(a)infinity-ltd.com> wrote:
> I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
> edit code, and would them write it to mag tape.
Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow chart
diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go looking for it.
It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the different shapes (boxes,
curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart diagram which you can trace off of
the ruler instead of having to draw them by hand. I never was much of an
artist....
--
MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Melville Sask ~ http://www.melvilletheatre.com
I worked in a "computer room" once, a long time ago -- do they still
have these? The hard drives were as big as washing machines and rattled
as if they were on spin cycle. The two IBM 370s displayed their Program
Status Words in flashing lights! In one back corner was what we called
"the data processing museum" that featured the company's older
equipment, including a card punch the size of a small car. This behemoth
appeared solid except for an input card hopper at the top and an output
tray at the bottom and was programmed by moving wires around on huge
boards that slid into one side.
When the company went out of business the IT guy offered to give me one
of the IBM 370s. But it was far too big to fit in my apartment.
Jerry
7:15 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
On Wednesday 02 April 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
bruce wrote:
> i recall my 1st use of a time share on the local university's machine..
>
> my 7th grade math teach was taking colleges courses, in like 1972.. and
> she had access to a tele-type machine with the dialup phone couple hooked
> to the machine...
>
> the machine created rollup punched out paper spools that we had written
> our "basic" programs on....
>
> i thought punch cards were a step up when i got into college later on!
>
> i say all this as i cruise on a 4G-Mem/250G-Drive/17" laptop on a fast
> wireless network!
>
>
> my god i'm old!!!
Even better - it was a 110 baud connection. The teletype was
probably 72 characters wide, all capitals. The paper tape had up to
8 full size holes and one small alignment hole. You were probably
punching 7 bit ASCII code, possibly with parity. The aliment hole
was used by a toothed sprocket to move the tape on the teletype, but
could also be used as a clocking bit for optical readers.
There was also a 5 bit version that didn't use ASCII... Both types
also had a 20ma or 60ma current loop interface. Great for long
distance wired serial communications. The bast part is that were
almost entirely mechanical, with very little electronics.
The teletype was also popular with early home computers like the
Altar 8008, and other S-100 systems. CP/M had teletype support.
Now I feel old - I owned a model 33 teletype.
And I still own a 1650-ro, the ro meaning receive only. The worlds fastest
Daisy Wheel printer at 40 cps. Its a friggin tank folks, I haven't been able
to kill it in the 15 years I used it. In its day, an amazing printer. 18"
wide BTW.
Mikkel
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Worst Month of 1981 for Downhill Skiing:
August. The lift lines are the shortest, though.
-- Steve Rubenstein
8:46 a.m.
Speaking as a geezer who still has thousands of punch cards in the
basement, and carefully picked a color laserjet partly on the basis of
its ability to print on them, punch cards were only rarely hacked.
You could get the attention of the old phone company by sending back
your punch card bill slip with different holes than the cards had when
they sent them.
1:06 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 13:04 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
The teletype was also popular with early home computers like the
Altar 8008, and other S-100 systems. CP/M had teletype support.
Now I feel old - I owned a model 33 teletype.
I had a Teletype 43 hooked up to my Apple][. Plus, I had collected what
I dimly recall as a Teletype 17 (?) It had a big round hood and the
connectors looked like old timey round telephone plugs. Heavy as lead. I
wish I had kept them!
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
9:35 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was
Digital
Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
Ken Olson).
I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
(as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
scatterbrained at times).
----
my memory of things ain't what it used to be but I vaguely remember that
Kildall was off hang gliding and not flying an airplane.
Craig
12:40 a.m.
Les wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
>
>> */Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:
>>
>> Tim:
>> >> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>>
>> Les:
>> > I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>>
>> If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
>> counts.
>>
>> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
>> code,
>> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
>> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>>
>> Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
>> had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
>>
>> =========
>>
>> Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
>>
>> Dropped a pile of them once.
>>
>> That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
>> on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
>> punch card machine
>>
> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
>
> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
>
> ~~R
>
>
Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
Regards,
Les H
Yes, they were lined with a double line. But what made it easier for the
date center to reassemble was that this was the first "run" after I had
repunched the whole deck and put brand new sequence numbers on the cards.
BTW, columns 73-80 of the punch cards were ignored in Fortran so after
we had a good "production" quality program, we would have it punched by
the system card punch and have the cards sequentially number in those
columns.
We were running research simulations so the program stayed constant and
only the data portion of the deck was changing, only about 30-40 cards,
if I recall.
Simulating rolling tires to reduce friction due to flexing of the tire
construct. Now there was a research project.... :-)
~~R
10:40 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
as an aside...
the issue of recalling how to read/write to old data formats is only going
to get harrier as we all go forth!!
remembering how to read something from a data format that's 20 years old
ain't going to get any easier!
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]On Behalf Of George Yanos
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:54 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down
inflames
* Nicholas Robinson <npr(a)bottlehall.co.uk> [2008-04-03 23:25:19 +0100]:
...
I'm sorry if I'm intruding on your privacy, but why on earth do you what
to
print on punch cards in 2008? Are these punch cards already punched?
Is it
for some sort of pre-Microsoft theme park merchandise? God, I hope you
reply
before I go to bed or I may lie awake the rest of the night
wondering...
...
Don't remember when the key punch room closed, but there were half a
pallet of punch cards left in a storage room for years. Just before
they were tossed, I took them home.
At some point I got a Palm Pilot. Had to keep it in a pocket or it
would have been left someplace. Front pocket -- scratched by keys and
coins and cracked perhaps by sitting. Rear pocket -- cracked by sitting
on. Shirt pocket the only remaining choice. It fell and broke the
screen. $100. Fell again. $100 again. (seems to me the Euro was about
.80 dollars then, pre W.)
Anyway, it turns out you can forget to write on punch card backs as
easily as on a palm pilot, and they don't break. You keep a file on
your computer, update it from the cards now and then, and print a new
deck. Besides, they are a great conversation starter.
PS: They are not punched. The punched ones are valuable antiques.
PPS: one floppy holds about as much data as two cases of punch cards,
20000 cards, 70 pounds or so.
*********************************************************************
* George Yanos * *
* UTC at UIC * *
* 312-413-0059(w) * *
* 708-848-4221(h) * *
* gyanos(a)uic.edu * *
*********************************************************************
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
11 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
> cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
> have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
> whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
Ken Olson).
I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
(as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
scatterbrained at times).
I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
were priceless. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
1:18 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Friday 04 April 2008, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 18:58 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 14:15 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
> ----
> yeah...I have no idea what happened to my 'red' book either (I never saw
> the blue book).
>
> As for Woz...he's probably still holding too much Apple stock to
> seriously consider anything public about Linux but you know he's fooled
> with it. What the hey...he's busy playing hide the salami with you know
> who.
If it wasn't for the Woz, you-know-who would be barefoot at the beach
sipping wine-coolers paid for by rich old dames.
The original Apple][ was a dream of a machine, open sourced in the red
(integer basic source code list and circuits specs) and blue book (I
think that had the Floating Point source-code listing and docs) as well
as complete logical diagrams of the circuitry. All right there and
shipped with every machine. Then Jobs stuck his fingers in, started
close-sourcing everything, starting with the Apple][+ and made it into
an appliance. Just wait, the iToaster, iDustBuster and the iFormansGrill
will be his next offerings. His followers will cheer madly. In case you
can't tell, I really despise the man. If Woz were to run the joint, I'd
buy one in a heartbeat. <chuckles> Ric
Two of us, Ric. Now I wouldn't touch them with a 40 foot pole.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.
-- Lao Tsu
8:11 a.m.
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
> > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> > shit they put in the software.
> >
> > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
> > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
> > due to the lack of technology...
>
> I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
> computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
> to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
> that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
> exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
> doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
> the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
> often flying solo...
>
> Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
> technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
> a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
> you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
> that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
> because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
> "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
> receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
> perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
> than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
> repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
> running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>
> Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
> a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
> and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
> up with it not working right.
So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
damn drug produced by M$.
And there is addiction through and through.
Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
the consumer has to buy another one.
I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
and get outdoors or whatever.
In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
--
It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
Max
6:50 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote:
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock
<rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put
to
> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> > > shit they put in the software.
> > >
> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek
houses
> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and
not
> > > due to the lack of technology...
> >
> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
> > often flying solo...
> >
> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
> >
> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
> > up with it not working right.
>
> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>
> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
> think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
> damn drug produced by M$.
>
> And there is addiction through and through.
>
> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
> the consumer has to buy another one.
>
> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>
> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>
> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>
> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
> and get outdoors or whatever.
>
> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>
>
>
> --
It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
Max
I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and other
organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain", "we want to
stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office only uses M$
office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can only
read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they
start back peddling even faster.
Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a problem, I can
give up at any time"?
What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been
there, tried that...
Such a shame.
10:05 p.m.
Da Rock wrote:
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 20:20 -0400, max wrote:
> Da Rock wrote:
>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote:
>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock
<rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
>>>> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
>>>> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that
they're not put to
>>>> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have
games
>>>> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we
still use
>>>> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they
can be
>>>> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they
could be doing
>>>> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our
machines dumb,
>>>> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with
all the
>>>> > > shit they put in the software.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective
wasted
>>>> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put
to
>>>> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed
of geek houses
>>>> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got
there- and not
>>>> > > due to the lack of technology...
>>>> >
>>>> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at
throwing
>>>> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g.
Schools seem
>>>> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never
mind
>>>> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as
much an
>>>> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're
supposed to be
>>>> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do
with
>>>> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a
computer,
>>>> > often flying solo...
>>>> >
>>>> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most
difficult
>>>> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to
show
>>>> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that
make
>>>> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a
way
>>>> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different
things
>>>> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
>>>> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you.
Digital
>>>> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give
near
>>>> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any
better
>>>> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple
like
>>>> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of
Crap
>>>> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>>>> >
>>>> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends,
reading
>>>> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of
time
>>>> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just
putting
>>>> > up with it not working right.
>>>>
>>>> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>>>>
>>>> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
>>>> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox
spewing
>>>> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
>>>> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was
done
>>>> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner).
M$
>>>> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
>>>> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
>>>> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
>>>> think they're clever getting them to do things like video
conferencing.
>>>> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
>>>> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off
the
>>>> damn drug produced by M$.
>>>>
>>>> And there is addiction through and through.
>>>>
>>>> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
>>>> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money
at
>>>> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a
half
>>>> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
>>>> the consumer has to buy another one.
>>>>
>>>> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
>>>> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!)
and
>>>> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
>>>> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare
part,
>>>> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
>>>> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
>>>> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking
about-
>>>> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
>>>> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>>>>
>>>> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
>>>> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
>>>> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be
done,
>>>> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>>>>
>>>> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point
across
>>>> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be
doing
>>>> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
>>>> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something.
More
>>>> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
>>>> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>>>>
>>>> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all
aside
>>>> and get outdoors or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask
that
>>>> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
>>>> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
>>>> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing
either-
>>>> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
>>>> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
>>>> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
>>> know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
>>> pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
>>> free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
>>> save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
>>> come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
>>> matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
>>>
>>>
>>> Max
>> I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and other
>> organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain", "we
want to
>> stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office only
uses M$
>> office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can
only
>> read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they
>> start back peddling even faster.
>>
>> Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a problem, I
can
>> give up at any time"?
>>
>> What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been
>> there, tried that...
>>
>> Such a shame.
>>
> It is a shame but it won't change from the top down. Good change starts
> from the bottom up. Education is the key as always. Most people are
> surprised to find out Open Office is free and they certainly can't
> believe its just as functional but it is. Things are changing slowly but
> surely, there is alot of inertia in the market to overcome, besides
> which people are often not farsighted enough to see the long term
> consequences of their choices but that too is a matter of education. I
> bet if a CD full of free software was stuffed in every mailbox like
> those annoying AOL cd's you'd find it would take hold rather quickly.
>
> Max
>
Tried that. When a habit becomes impossible to break despite all reason
it becomes addiction. Thats whats happened - despite education, and TCO
analysis, business, schools and home users refuse to give up M$. I have
just seen an organisation here working with a government welfare agency
offering computers stacked with M$ shit to people with practically no
money. Why not use free stuff here? Because they won't change their
mind- everybody uses it, its what evryone's used to, what they'll use in
the workplace, etc. Never mind that the basic principles of use don't
change across platform and its easy to learn from *nix to M$.
If you were running the organization would you stack the computers with
microshit? This is the people at the top, they go with what everyone
else does because your proabably not going to get fired for buying m$
unless you work for me that is ;)
This government refuses to use free software- and have actually
rolled
over to M$ from *nix- and also buys systems from overseas vendors, even
though there are local offerings. Business is the same.
Actually certain parts of gov't , are using open-source quite a bit.
There have been a few articles about this, i'll see if I can dig them up.
If this is not happening somewhere else then let me know and I'll
come
and join you- I'm tired of banging my head against a brick wall! Mind
you I'll never give up, but I will show them how its done.
Its everywhere ,unfortunately, but I can see the cracks spreading so its
just a matter of time. I don't like banging my head against a brick wall
either but the brick's gonna give before I do!!
Max
10:34 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 23:05 -0400, max wrote:
Da Rock wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 20:20 -0400, max wrote:
>> Da Rock wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock
<rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
>>>>> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
>>>>> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that
they're not put to
>>>>> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we
have games
>>>>> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and
YET we still use
>>>>> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes,
they can be
>>>>> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they
could be doing
>>>>> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our
machines dumb,
>>>>> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1
with all the
>>>>> > > shit they put in the software.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our
collective wasted
>>>>> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one
put to
>>>>> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We
dreamed of geek houses
>>>>> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't
got there- and not
>>>>> > > due to the lack of technology...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick
at throwing
>>>>> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g.
Schools seem
>>>>> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer,
never mind
>>>>> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate.
School's as much an
>>>>> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're
supposed to be
>>>>> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do
we do with
>>>>> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a
computer,
>>>>> > often flying solo...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the
most difficult
>>>>> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the
television to show
>>>>> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres
that make
>>>>> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together
in a way
>>>>> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across
different things
>>>>> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to
them as
>>>>> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at
you. Digital
>>>>> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers
give near
>>>>> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that
aren't any better
>>>>> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something
simple like
>>>>> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile
of Crap
>>>>> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of
friends, reading
>>>>> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots
of time
>>>>> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or
just putting
>>>>> > up with it not working right.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>>>>>
>>>>> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities-
but
>>>>> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox
spewing
>>>>> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of
the
>>>>> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was
done
>>>>> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the
coiner). M$
>>>>> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening
the
>>>>> public to computing. What should have happened was that the
training
>>>>> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them
and
>>>>> think they're clever getting them to do things like video
conferencing.
>>>>> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable
such
>>>>> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them
off the
>>>>> damn drug produced by M$.
>>>>>
>>>>> And there is addiction through and through.
>>>>>
>>>>> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make
life
>>>>> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw
money at
>>>>> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a
half
>>>>> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out
and
>>>>> the consumer has to buy another one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
>>>>> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my
head!) and
>>>>> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained
that
>>>>> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no
spare part,
>>>>> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so
on
>>>>> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
>>>>> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're
talking about-
>>>>> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially
the
>>>>> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing
properly.
>>>>> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has
been
>>>>> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to
be done,
>>>>> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this
point across
>>>>> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we
couldn't be doing
>>>>> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
>>>>> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something.
More
>>>>> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area.
Forget
>>>>> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all
aside
>>>>> and get outdoors or whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd
ask that
>>>>> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
>>>>> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
>>>>> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good
thing either-
>>>>> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need
to
>>>>> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not
an
>>>>> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they
don't
>>>> know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
>>>> pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
>>>> free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
>>>> save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
>>>> come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
>>>> matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Max
>>> I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and
other
>>> organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain",
"we want to
>>> stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office
only uses M$
>>> office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can
only
>>> read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they
>>> start back peddling even faster.
>>>
>>> Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a
problem, I can
>>> give up at any time"?
>>>
>>> What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been
>>> there, tried that...
>>>
>>> Such a shame.
>>>
>> It is a shame but it won't change from the top down. Good change starts
>> from the bottom up. Education is the key as always. Most people are
>> surprised to find out Open Office is free and they certainly can't
>> believe its just as functional but it is. Things are changing slowly but
>> surely, there is alot of inertia in the market to overcome, besides
>> which people are often not farsighted enough to see the long term
>> consequences of their choices but that too is a matter of education. I
>> bet if a CD full of free software was stuffed in every mailbox like
>> those annoying AOL cd's you'd find it would take hold rather quickly.
>>
>> Max
>>
>
> Tried that. When a habit becomes impossible to break despite all reason
> it becomes addiction. Thats whats happened - despite education, and TCO
> analysis, business, schools and home users refuse to give up M$. I have
> just seen an organisation here working with a government welfare agency
> offering computers stacked with M$ shit to people with practically no
> money. Why not use free stuff here? Because they won't change their
> mind- everybody uses it, its what evryone's used to, what they'll use in
> the workplace, etc. Never mind that the basic principles of use don't
> change across platform and its easy to learn from *nix to M$.
>
If you were running the organization would you stack the computers with
microshit? This is the people at the top, they go with what everyone
else does because your proabably not going to get fired for buying m$
unless you work for me that is ;)
> This government refuses to use free software- and have actually rolled
> over to M$ from *nix- and also buys systems from overseas vendors, even
> though there are local offerings. Business is the same.
>
Actually certain parts of gov't , are using open-source quite a bit.
There have been a few articles about this, i'll see if I can dig them up.
There have been some governments- but not this one! Thats Australian
mind...
> If this is not happening somewhere else then let me know and I'll come
> and join you- I'm tired of banging my head against a brick wall! Mind
> you I'll never give up, but I will show them how its done.
Its everywhere ,unfortunately, but I can see the cracks spreading so its
just a matter of time. I don't like banging my head against a brick wall
either but the brick's gonna give before I do!!
Good man. I'll keep on the backs here too. And yes, the brick will give
before me if its my last breath...
8:59 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 20:20 -0400, max wrote:
Da Rock wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au>
wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
>>> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're
not put to
>>> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have
games
>>> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we
still use
>>> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they
can be
>>> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could
be doing
>>> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines
dumb,
>>> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with
all the
>>> > > shit they put in the software.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective
wasted
>>> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
>>> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of
geek houses
>>> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got
there- and not
>>> > > due to the lack of technology...
>>> >
>>> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at
throwing
>>> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools
seem
>>> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
>>> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as
much an
>>> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed
to be
>>> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do
with
>>> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a
computer,
>>> > often flying solo...
>>> >
>>> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most
difficult
>>> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to
show
>>> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that
make
>>> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a
way
>>> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different
things
>>> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
>>> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you.
Digital
>>> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
>>> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any
better
>>> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
>>> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
>>> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>>> >
>>> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends,
reading
>>> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
>>> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just
putting
>>> > up with it not working right.
>>>
>>> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>>>
>>> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
>>> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox
spewing
>>> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
>>> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
>>> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner).
M$
>>> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
>>> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
>>> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
>>> think they're clever getting them to do things like video
conferencing.
>>> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
>>> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
>>> damn drug produced by M$.
>>>
>>> And there is addiction through and through.
>>>
>>> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
>>> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
>>> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
>>> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
>>> the consumer has to buy another one.
>>>
>>> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
>>> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
>>> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
>>> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare
part,
>>> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
>>> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
>>> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking
about-
>>> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
>>> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>>>
>>> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
>>> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
>>> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be
done,
>>> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>>>
>>> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point
across
>>> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be
doing
>>> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
>>> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
>>> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
>>> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>>>
>>> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
>>> and get outdoors or whatever.
>>>
>>> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask
that
>>> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
>>> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
>>> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing
either-
>>> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
>>> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
>>> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
>> know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
>> pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
>> free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
>> save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
>> come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
>> matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
>>
>>
>> Max
>
> I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and other
> organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain", "we
want to
> stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office only uses
M$
> office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can only
> read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they
> start back peddling even faster.
>
> Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a problem, I
can
> give up at any time"?
>
> What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been
> there, tried that...
>
> Such a shame.
>
It is a shame but it won't change from the top down. Good change starts
from the bottom up. Education is the key as always. Most people are
surprised to find out Open Office is free and they certainly can't
believe its just as functional but it is. Things are changing slowly but
surely, there is alot of inertia in the market to overcome, besides
which people are often not farsighted enough to see the long term
consequences of their choices but that too is a matter of education. I
bet if a CD full of free software was stuffed in every mailbox like
those annoying AOL cd's you'd find it would take hold rather quickly.
Max
Tried that. When a habit becomes impossible to break despite all reason
it becomes addiction. Thats whats happened - despite education, and TCO
analysis, business, schools and home users refuse to give up M$. I have
just seen an organisation here working with a government welfare agency
offering computers stacked with M$ shit to people with practically no
money. Why not use free stuff here? Because they won't change their
mind- everybody uses it, its what evryone's used to, what they'll use in
the workplace, etc. Never mind that the basic principles of use don't
change across platform and its easy to learn from *nix to M$.
This government refuses to use free software- and have actually rolled
over to M$ from *nix- and also buys systems from overseas vendors, even
though there are local offerings. Business is the same.
If this is not happening somewhere else then let me know and I'll come
and join you- I'm tired of banging my head against a brick wall! Mind
you I'll never give up, but I will show them how its done.
For reference addiction is where the habit overcomes all reasoning- A
smoker won't stop because of real nasty pictures or descriptions of the
consequences, a gambler won't stop even if his family leaves him/her, a
drunk the same, plus their job, and so on. This is a financial problem,
a time problem, a data loss problem, a security problem, and STILL they
refuse to give it up.
7:20 p.m.
Da Rock wrote:
On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:11 -0400, max bianco wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web(a)comcen.com.au>
wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
>> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
>> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not
put to
>> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
>> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still
use
>> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
>> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be
doing
>> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines
dumb,
>> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all
the
>> > > shit they put in the software.
>> > >
>> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
>> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
>> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek
houses
>> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and
not
>> > > due to the lack of technology...
>> >
>> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
>> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools
seem
>> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
>> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
>> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to
be
>> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
>> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
>> > often flying solo...
>> >
>> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most
difficult
>> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
>> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
>> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
>> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
>> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
>> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you.
Digital
>> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
>> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
>> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
>> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
>> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>> >
>> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
>> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
>> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
>> > up with it not working right.
>>
>> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>>
>> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
>> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
>> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
>> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
>> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
>> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
>> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
>> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
>> think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
>> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
>> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
>> damn drug produced by M$.
>>
>> And there is addiction through and through.
>>
>> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
>> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
>> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
>> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
>> the consumer has to buy another one.
>>
>> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
>> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
>> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
>> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
>> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
>> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
>> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
>> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
>> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>>
>> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
>> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
>> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
>> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>>
>> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
>> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
>> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
>> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
>> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
>> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>>
>> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
>> and get outdoors or whatever.
>>
>> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
>> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
>> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
>> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
>> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
>> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
>> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
> know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
> pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
> free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
> save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
> come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
> matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.
>
>
> Max
I'm afraid not, been down that track numerous times with NGO's and other
organisations. The excuse is "we're not going to retrain", "we want
to
stick with something we're familiar with", "our head office only uses M$
office and we need to be compatible with them", "our suppliers can only
read M$ office documents". Tell them it is compatible as well and they
start back peddling even faster.
Doesn't that sound like addiction to you? "I don't have a problem, I can
give up at any time"?
What you considered would be wonderful, but it never grabs them. Been
there, tried that...
Such a shame.
It is a shame but it won't change from the top down. Good change starts
from the bottom up. Education is the key as always. Most people are
surprised to find out Open Office is free and they certainly can't
believe its just as functional but it is. Things are changing slowly but
surely, there is alot of inertia in the market to overcome, besides
which people are often not farsighted enough to see the long term
consequences of their choices but that too is a matter of education. I
bet if a CD full of free software was stuffed in every mailbox like
those annoying AOL cd's you'd find it would take hold rather quickly.
Max
12:40 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Sunday 06 April 2008, Ric Moore wrote:
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> >> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him
for
> >> AGES!
> >
> > Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
>
> I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
playing with! <cackles> Ric
I'll see your Captain Midnight, and raise you a Shadow. :)
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
In Devon, Connecticut, it is unlawful to walk backwards after sunset.
10:49 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 20:42 -0700, Richard England wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>
>> Ric Moore wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of
him for AGES!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
>>
> Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
> it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
> see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
> playing with! <cackles> Ric
>
>
How about a Captain Video? I'd through in a Howdy Doody but everone has
one of those!
Damn, looks like Richard has a full-house. I just got a pair of
treys.
That's the story of my life.
<Marvin the Paranoid Android like groan> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
10:42 p.m.
Ric Moore wrote:
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for
AGES!
>>>
>>>
>> Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
>>
>>
>>
> I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
>
Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
playing with! <cackles> Ric
How about a Captain Video? I'd through in a Howdy Doody but everone has
one of those! ;-)
12:41 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 00:00 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
> > have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> > Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
> > whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
>
> Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
> Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
> Ken Olson).
>
> I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
> similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
> same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
>
> IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
> but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
> and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
> (as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
> as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
> scatterbrained at times).
I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
were priceless. Ric
I was overseas from 1972 to 1977, and did much of my early programming
and programming study then, using Fortran and paying for time on a
company timeshare.
I never met any of the folks I was reading about, and I was months
behind the curve, I think, (technical communications were not what they
are today), but I learned so very very much. I read every book I could
afford to buy, joined McGraw-Hill's book club and bought one or two
books nearly every month. It was tough to do that on a sailors salary
with a family to support, and studying took a lot of the little free
time I had (3 or 4 section duty, taking classes, standing watches 3 out
of 4 weekends or 2 out of three weekends), but I did get a lot done... I
earned an ASEE at University of Guam (it's part of the California system
of colleges), and got a First Class Radio Operators License, and passed
the Navy Chief ET's exam (not enough points to advance then). I did the
finals and the exams all in one week. It was punishing, but I had
operations coming up and I couldn't delay. I worked on the side some as
well. I remember getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a day. And I
continued that during my next shore tour as I earned an AA at Skagit
Valley Community college. Didn't realize I didn't need the AA to go on
in school. Wasn't smart enough to ask.
I learned, I wrote software to flash lights, make noises, even to say
the hex digits in place of a readout on one of my early boards. That
way I could follow the listing as it read them back to me. I figured
out how to make a comparator and wrote a resyncing program to allow
storing data on audio cassettes at 8K baud because I was tired of
waiting for the 300 baud modem. I never experienced a drop out with my
algorithm. But I didn't patent it, I thought it was too obvious. I
designed a SAR algorithm and used the system to sample voice at about a
10K rate. I was experimenting with voice input. I had a crazy idea of
listing programs by voice onto cassette tape and then being able to edit
them and reload them to run from assembly or some other language, but
without binary type storage, so they would always be available in source
form. Sounds crazy now, but at the time, it seemed like a good idea to
me.
I really wanted to be able to meet and talk to some of the other early
experimenters, but I was nearly half a world away. At that time I felt
so isolated from the world of bits and bytes that even now I can feel
it.
I hope some of the young people reading this list are inspired by our
words and our deeds to pursue ever greater goals. Maybe visit the
planets or even the stars. We are not meant to be bound, not to our
limitations, nor even to the earth. We, all people are meant to
explore, to learn, to develop, and to expand.
Regards,
Les H
9:21 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>
>
>> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for
AGES!
>>
>
> Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
>
>
I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
Would you
believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
playing with! <cackles> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
11:11 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of
him for AGES!
Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
10:51 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 18:58 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 14:15 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
----
yeah...I have no idea what happened to my 'red' book either (I never saw
the blue book).
As for Woz...he's probably still holding too much Apple stock to
seriously consider anything public about Linux but you know he's fooled
with it. What the hey...he's busy playing hide the salami with you know
who.
If it wasn't for the Woz, you-know-who would be barefoot at the beach
sipping wine-coolers paid for by rich old dames.
The original Apple][ was a dream of a machine, open sourced in the red
(integer basic source code list and circuits specs) and blue book (I
think that had the Floating Point source-code listing and docs) as well
as complete logical diagrams of the circuitry. All right there and
shipped with every machine. Then Jobs stuck his fingers in, started
close-sourcing everything, starting with the Apple][+ and made it into
an appliance. Just wait, the iToaster, iDustBuster and the iFormansGrill
will be his next offerings. His followers will cheer madly. In case you
can't tell, I really despise the man. If Woz were to run the joint, I'd
buy one in a heartbeat. <chuckles> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
7:52 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 08:40 -0700, bruce wrote:
as an aside...
the issue of recalling how to read/write to old data formats is only
going to get harrier as we all go forth!!
remembering how to read something from a data format that's 20 years
old ain't going to get any easier!
Yes, though this brings up a point where paper has a huge advantage.
You can read paper cards and tape without the original reading hardware,
if you have to. Try doing that with an obsolete magnetic or optical
media!
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
9:54 a.m.
* Nicholas Robinson <npr(a)bottlehall.co.uk> [2008-04-03 23:25:19 +0100]:
...
I'm sorry if I'm intruding on your privacy, but why on earth do you what to
print on punch cards in 2008? Are these punch cards already punched? Is it
for some sort of pre-Microsoft theme park merchandise? God, I hope you reply
before I go to bed or I may lie awake the rest of the night wondering...
...
Don't remember when the key punch room closed, but there were half a
pallet of punch cards left in a storage room for years. Just before
they were tossed, I took them home.
At some point I got a Palm Pilot. Had to keep it in a pocket or it
would have been left someplace. Front pocket -- scratched by keys and
coins and cracked perhaps by sitting. Rear pocket -- cracked by sitting
on. Shirt pocket the only remaining choice. It fell and broke the
screen. $100. Fell again. $100 again. (seems to me the Euro was about
.80 dollars then, pre W.)
Anyway, it turns out you can forget to write on punch card backs as
easily as on a palm pilot, and they don't break. You keep a file on
your computer, update it from the cards now and then, and print a new
deck. Besides, they are a great conversation starter.
PS: They are not punched. The punched ones are valuable antiques.
PPS: one floppy holds about as much data as two cases of punch cards,
20000 cards, 70 pounds or so.
*********************************************************************
* George Yanos * *
* UTC at UIC * *
* 312-413-0059(w) * *
* 708-848-4221(h) * *
* gyanos(a)uic.edu * *
*********************************************************************
12:53 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Tim:
> Now, with these kids and their Windows box, they still get to
experience
> something like that (even if applications are quick to start), with
> prolonged boot-ups, and all those reboots... :-p
Alan:
"You have moved your mouse. To make change permanent please
reboot."
It's almost that bad... ;-) PS/2 mice would annoy me, if the computer
started without noticing the mouse, you had to reboot to attach it.
Didn't have to with the same hardware on Linux, though.
I have a laptop that came with Vista, so I kept it, but usually ignore
it, running Linux from another partition. Occasionally I'll boot it,
it'll start, whinge that anti-virus is out of date, download an update,
and whinge that I must reboot. I haven't even started to use the
computer for my own purposes, yet, and I'm already having to reboot!
I'm not sure whether if I keep on going, and not reboot, whether the
anti-virus is running, but with old definitions, or isn't running.
Well, I can see it's "running," I just don't know if it's
"working," and
I'm not going to test it.
Everything's a bloody reboot...
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
12:52 a.m.
Dick Seabrook wrote:
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, tom <tfreeman(a)intel.digichem.net
<mailto:tfreeman@intel.digichem.net>> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:
You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are
approaching four score years. They should remember what they were
doing about the time the first commercial digital computers were
released upon the world.
That would be the UNIVAC I in 1952, which went to the Census Bureau as
I recall.
I was too young for computing -- spent most of the time watching
Arthur Godfrey
and Jerry Lester (remember him?) on TV. Seems to me that was also
the year
Elizabeth II was crowned, Adlai Stevenson lost the election to Ike,
etc....
I got a way to go before I hit four-score!
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs <http://enterprise.aacc.edu/%7Erhs> ~
Speed the Net!
Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought
of him for AGES!
~~R
1:48 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Gerhard Magnus wrote:
I worked in a "computer room" once, a long time ago -- do they still
have these? The hard drives were as big as washing machines and rattled
as if they were on spin cycle.
They do still have computer rooms and for some reason they just keep
sucking more and more power to run and more air conditioning to cool.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
8:58 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 14:15 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 07:45 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > Les wrote:
> > > Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
> > > (still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
> > > Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
> > > systems that ran various other OS's
> > > that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
> > > which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
> > > flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers,
> > > they just got the contract to write the OS for IBM, and were able to
> > > bootstrap that into the corporation you see today.
> > >
> > Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
> > a version of BASIC that for several operating systems. I can
> > remember loading it from tape, and later burning it to EPROM with a
> > small relocation program to move it into RAM at the address it
> > expected to run. (It was not relocatable...)
> ----
> I have that tape still...
>
> Microsoft's version for Apple...called 'Floating Point Basic Language'
> for Apple ][ because my original Apple ][ had integer basic in ROM and
> Floating Point Basic had to be loaded from a cassette. I do sort of
> wonder if it has any value.
THAT's the one I had, what a pirating tool it was, too!! Heheheh, just
note the starting address of a binary program loaded into memory, note
the length, and save it to tape after hitting the reset button. Then
we'd load up a real system disk, reload the program back from tape and
"bsave" it to a floppy, noting the start and length parameters, and you
had that sucker. God only knows how many space games we liberated from
copy-protected disks. Then, Jobs decided to make the Apple][+, so there
would be no more pirating shenanigans. Right. We made eprom copies of
the original integer basic roms to load into the plus machines. Those
were the good-ole days, for sure. I still have a cassette copy of the
Apple floating point basic, too. I wish I had kept the Red and Blue
Books. Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
----
yeah...I have no idea what happened to my 'red' book either (I never saw
the blue book).
As for Woz...he's probably still holding too much Apple stock to
seriously consider anything public about Linux but you know he's fooled
with it. What the hey...he's busy playing hide the salami with you know
who.
Craig
3:46 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Robin Laing wrote:
It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek program
on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence building
at school. It was over 10 stories long.
That sounds about as bad as the multi-player space war game a friend
and I wrote to run an on HP2000 access system. 10 terminals,, each
running their own copy of the program, and exchanging data through a
shared file. Written in BASIC, of course. (ITTSTK)
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
6:49 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 23:44 +0100, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
> The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e and then
> loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a mistake
> hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the paper
> tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you were
> in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
> interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
> jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or so
> cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was rated
> at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it still
> took a long time to load a big programme.
>
> Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the lives
> of the when-we's.
Who've never had the displeasure of trying to load programs from audio
cassette tape on a personal computer from the 1980s... On a friend's
C64, it was almost guaranteed that anything that took longer than two
minutes to load would foul up and require multiple attempts. Even
without screw-ups, it was awfully slow.
Now, with these kids and their Windows box, they still get to experience
something like that (even if applications are quick to start), with
prolonged boot-ups, and all those reboots... :-p
Load"*" ,8,1
I mainly used it for games.
Raid Over Moscow
Racing Destruction Set
Zaxxon
Mission Impossible
Bard's Tale
Zork
I had hundreds of games. I wish EA would bring back Racing Destruction Set.
Max
2:07 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:48:27 -0300 (ADT)
"George N. White III" <aa056(a)chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, Chris wrote:
> Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
>> El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
>>> Read article
>>
>> That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face everyday.
>> I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as
>> I've been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no
>> mac experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running
>> by a dumb administrator.
>> It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be
>> hacked than a windows in the same situation.
>>
>> But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real
>> scenario.
>>
>> Anyways, I'm glad Linux survived, do not take me wrong :-)
>> Manuel
>
> Let's also not forget the most important part of the article - it
> mentioned something about Java allowing MS security to be
> circumvented.
>
> That leads me to think that if Java was not installed on that box,
> would it have been hacked?
If you don't want to install Java you need to tell us what
alternative is going to provide better security. Many developers use
Java because the work needed to implement the functionality
(including the attention to security issues) would be prohibitive.
I still feel that if Java was not installed on the MS box, it still
raises the question, would the box have been hacked?
Java is not part of the default install (afaik) XP, Vista, etc.
One might ask, perhaps the folks that setup these boxen, did they
knowingly install Java with the pre-thought that that would be a way
in.
MS was chosen for this attack because the person who knew the Java
exploit also happened to be familiar with MS. Such attacks often
proceed in stages:
Here again, this seems unfair. These tests should have been done on
boxen that did not have 3rd part apps etc. Still seems like a tainted
test.
1. get user-level access via a browser, java, etc.
2. elevate to "admin/root" privileges, which is where knowledge of
the specific OS comes in.
Often the 1st step works on multiple platforms.
Assuming the multi-platforms are setup with as close to the same
programs as possible.
> Perhaps not. So, I think the article is very misleading. To me, I
> could care either way. as pointed out else where in this thread, a
> properly patched and managed box (under any OS) can be very
> difficult to hack.
Or not, if you happen to know of an unpatched vulnerability.
> I wonder why (at least in this article) OpenBSD was not mentioned.
> Perhaps it was just a session that was betwix Linux & MS.
OS X was the first to fall (via safari), so the BSD camp didn't fare
very well.
As you do know, I specifically mentioned OpenBSD. I would like to see
them folks go against an out of the box install of Linux (any distro)
and OpenBSD - that would be a telling tale indeeed.
In any event, as we all also know, these sorts of tests and results can
be manipulated to reflect any ones agenda - I for one, have never been
a fan of these things. It really proves nothing.
--
Best regards,
Chris
"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
6:30 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 23:44 +0100, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
> The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e and
> then
> loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a
> mistake
> hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the
> paper
> tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you
> were
> in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
> interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
> jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or
> so
> cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was
> rated
> at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it
> still
> took a long time to load a big programme.
>
> Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the
> lives
> of the when-we's.
Who've never had the displeasure of trying to load programs from audio
cassette tape on a personal computer from the 1980s... On a friend's
C64, it was almost guaranteed that anything that took longer than two
minutes to load would foul up and require multiple attempts. Even
without screw-ups, it was awfully slow.
Especially when you forgot to clean the heads. The same problem would
occur on some older floppy drives and tape drives. (Ever see what RPG
programs would do on an IBM 360 if the tape heads were dirty? It would
make things up. And with RPG it was hard to tell the difference.) I
found that vodka worked in an emergency for cleaning drive and/or tape
heads.
Now, with these kids and their Windows box, they still get to
experience
something like that (even if applications are quick to start), with
prolonged boot-ups, and all those reboots... :-p
"You have moved your mouse. To make change permanent please reboot."
6:24 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 23:44 +0100, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e
and then
loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a mistake
hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the paper
tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you were
in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or so
cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was rated
at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it still
took a long time to load a big programme.
Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the lives
of the when-we's.
Who've never had the displeasure of trying to load programs from audio
cassette tape on a personal computer from the 1980s... On a friend's
C64, it was almost guaranteed that anything that took longer than two
minutes to load would foul up and require multiple attempts. Even
without screw-ups, it was awfully slow.
Now, with these kids and their Windows box, they still get to experience
something like that (even if applications are quick to start), with
prolonged boot-ups, and all those reboots... :-p
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
6:01 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thursday 03 April 2008, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
On Thursday 03 April 2008 23:06:44 Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:25 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> > It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek
> > program on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence
> > building at school. It was over 10 stories long.
> >
> > We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
> > had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for
> > us. :)
>
> I would have thought paper tape to be more reliable than plastic tape.
> No stretching, no striction, reversable and relocatable for a re-read,
> repairable by your engineers when someone breaks it, duplicatable
> through various direct methods without degradation of data.
Yes, we had a very, very short-lived trial with cassettes for exactly the
reasons you mention. We went on to these new-fangled floppy discs with a
huge capacity of just over 100k bytes. We carried on using paper tapes for
a while, just to be sure. We were real men though and had to repair our own
tapes. It was tough in those days.
The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e and then
loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a mistake
hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the paper
tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you were
in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or so
cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was rated
at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it still
took a long time to load a big programme.
Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the
lives of the when-we's.
Nick
Yup, and they think that they have 'come a long way, baby'
Some aren't even backed out of the driveway yet, and some are fading with too
many years in the sun (or whatever is the means of degradation when one don't
really want to admit one is becoming an old fart)
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Every young man should have a hobby: learning how to handle money is
the best one.
-- Jack Hurley
5:44 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thursday 03 April 2008 23:06:44 Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:25 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek
> program on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence
> building at school. It was over 10 stories long.
>
> We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
> had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for
> us. :)
I would have thought paper tape to be more reliable than plastic tape.
No stretching, no striction, reversable and relocatable for a re-read,
repairable by your engineers when someone breaks it, duplicatable
through various direct methods without degradation of data.
Yes, we had a very, very short-lived trial with cassettes for exactly the
reasons you mention. We went on to these new-fangled floppy discs with a huge
capacity of just over 100k bytes. We carried on using paper tapes for a
while, just to be sure. We were real men though and had to repair our own
tapes. It was tough in those days.
The typical session started with bootstrapping RIM into the PDP 8e and then
loading the BIN loader off paper tape. Assuming you didn't make a mistake
hand-loading the 30odd 12 bit instructions in the RIM loader and the paper
tape didn't jam/fall out of the reader/stop for no apparent reason, you were
in business and could then load another paper tape with something more
interesting on it, like BASIC or Algol or an assembler (subject to the
jams/falls/stops noted before). If the optical paper tape reader (300 or so
cps) failed then we had to resort to the old teletype reader which was rated
at 10 cps, but always seemed slower. Even with only 8k core memory, it still
took a long time to load a big programme.
Ah, how the younger ones on the list must be enjoying reading about the lives
of the when-we's.
Nick
5:25 p.m.
On Thursday 03 April 2008 22:58:29 Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 08:46 -0500, George Yanos wrote:
> Speaking as a geezer who still has thousands of punch cards in the
> basement, and carefully picked a color laserjet partly on the basis of
> its ability to print on them, punch cards were only rarely hacked.
>
> You could get the attention of the old phone company by sending back
> your punch card bill slip with different holes than the cards had when
> they sent them.
Hahaha. I'm kind of surprised that they'd give something out to clients
that'd make them vulnerable.
Way back when I worked in a library, we used barcode labels on each item
for the library management system. We'd have people return things with
extra lines coloured in the barcode, who always swore that they didn't
do it, and it must have been like that when they borrowed it. It never
occurred to them that we knew that was rubbish. The items were scanned
on the way out, and back on the way in. If it was tampered with
beforehand, they'd have errored when first scanned. We made them stump
up the cash for relabeling.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
I'm sorry if I'm intruding on your privacy, but why on earth do you what to
print on punch cards in 2008? Are these punch cards already punched? Is it
for some sort of pre-Microsoft theme park merchandise? God, I hope you reply
before I go to bed or I may lie awake the rest of the night wondering...
I started working in 1984, two weeks before our punch room shut forever and
re-trained the operators for word-processing. Apart from one colleague who
kept a box-full for old times sake, most of the old boys (and three old
girls) were glad to see the back of them (the cards that is, not the
operators).
Nick
5:06 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:25 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek
program on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence
building at school. It was over 10 stories long.
We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for
us. :)
I would have thought paper tape to be more reliable than plastic tape.
No stretching, no striction, reversable and relocatable for a re-read,
repairable by your engineers when someone breaks it, duplicatable
through various direct methods without degradation of data.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
4:58 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 08:46 -0500, George Yanos wrote:
Speaking as a geezer who still has thousands of punch cards in the
basement, and carefully picked a color laserjet partly on the basis of
its ability to print on them, punch cards were only rarely hacked.
You could get the attention of the old phone company by sending back
your punch card bill slip with different holes than the cards had when
they sent them.
Hahaha. I'm kind of surprised that they'd give something out to clients
that'd make them vulnerable.
Way back when I worked in a library, we used barcode labels on each item
for the library management system. We'd have people return things with
extra lines coloured in the barcode, who always swore that they didn't
do it, and it must have been like that when they borrowed it. It never
occurred to them that we knew that was rubbish. The items were scanned
on the way out, and back on the way in. If it was tampered with
beforehand, they'd have errored when first scanned. We made them stump
up the cash for relabeling.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
11:09 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Frank Cox wrote:
Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow chart
diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go looking for it.
It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the different shapes (boxes,
curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart diagram which you can trace off of
the ruler instead of having to draw them by hand. I never was much of an
artist....
I still have a couple of them myself. You can also use dia to create
flow charts. But it is a bit harder when you have a large one.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
12:56 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for us. :)
The Ocean Engineering department at FAU had a Data General Nova with
an ASR-33 TTY and paper tape reader, and I got to upgrade it with a
friend one weekend, installing the cassette device driver.
Unfortunately getting the cassette driver installed required reading
the whole kernel in via the paper tape reader - a roll about 3 inches
in diameter, and the slightest problem reading meant you had to start
from scratch again - what fun that was, being human strain relief
devices to keep all tension off the paper tape for the hours and hours
it took to finally get it to read the whole thing :-).
At least it had magnetic core memory, so once you got something in there, it
would stay there.
11:25 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Michael Weiner wrote:
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Les Mikesell
<lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
<mailto:lesmikesell@gmail.com>> wrote:
Gerhard Magnus wrote:
I worked in a "computer room" once, a long time ago -- do they still
have these? The hard drives were as big as washing machines and
rattled
as if they were on spin cycle.
They do still have computer rooms and for some reason they just keep
sucking more and more power to run and more air conditioning to cool.
http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HistoryPt4.htm
Enjoy the walk back!!!!
Michael Weiner
Thank you for the link.
It was nice to see the TTY there. I remember having a Star Trek program
on paper tape. Let it roll down the outside of the residence building
at school. It was over 10 stories long.
We were the lucky ones in the second year. We had a TI terminal that
had a cassette tape in it. No more punch cards or paper tape for us. :)
PDP 8's and PDP 11's with the bootloader mylar tape were fun as well.
Now I feel old again.
--
Robin Laing
11:20 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 18:09:32 +0000,
Matthew Saltzman <mjs(a)clemson.edu> wrote:
Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used
You forgot the continuation column, which I believe was column 6.
A 0 or blank signified a new statement, other characters signified
a continuation of the previous statement.
8:02 a.m.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Les wrote:
We also had mechanical tape readers, the small hole in the center
of
the tape was the drive. Small fingers would sense the holes punched in
the tape. 5 level, caps+numbers+a limited number of punctuation marks.
I also helped clean and adjust the teleltypes. Do any of you know what
the "stunt box" is?
The box of holes?
--
Michael hennebry(a)web.cs.ndsu.NoDak.edu
"Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised)
are called Hardware; those program instructions that you can only
curse at are called Software."
4:09 p.m.
On 04/02/2008 03:18:56 PM, Dick Seabrook wrote:
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, tom
<tfreeman(a)intel.digichem.net>
wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:
>
> You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are
approaching four
> score years. They should remember what they were doing about the
time the
> first commercial digital computers were released upon the world.
>
> That would be the UNIVAC I in 1952, which went to the Census Bureau
as I
recall.
I was too young for computing -- spent most of the time watching
Arthur
Godfrey
and Jerry Lester (remember him?) on TV. Seems to me that was also
the year
Elizabeth II was crowned, Adlai Stevenson lost the election to Ike,
etc....
I got a way to go before I hit four-score!
Dick S.
Well, I chose four score years partly to be difficult. But also I chose
it to suggest teenagers and young adults, and there are some on this
list who would qualify.
Myself, I don't get to have many personal memories until after FORTRAN
and COBOL and LISP made the scene - too young
4 p.m.
On 04/02/2008 04:29:27 PM, Tim wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by
supplying
> a version of BASIC that for several operating systems.
And wasn't it awful... I know BASIC's sneered upon, as there are
plenty
of better things, but BASIC was a simple starting position for a lot
of
people. It was also the only system available for a lot of home
personal computing, for a long time. Though, it typically was a very
feature limited interpreter. We had it on a Data General mainframe,
amongst other languages, and that went in the opposite direction -
very
featured, and gave you very verbose and lengthy error reports about
your
syntax errors.
Many years ago I can remember tinkering around with Microsoft's BASIC
on
the Amiga, since it was the only programming language I had to play
with
on it, at the time. And actually managing to make a small relational
database with it, even though it hardly has the features that you
need
for something like that. It wasn't anything really complex though,
just
interrelated databases of services, clients, quotes, and the ability
to
turn a quote into an invoice.
Ugliest BASIC _I_ can vaguely remember was on a
Varian instrument.
Memory say it was from U of British Columbia or some such. It was a
Unix BASIC, which I ran into about 1983.
Best part was Varian shipped it on the instrument, but there was no
lead to _any_ documentation anywhere.
3:40 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:20 -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
I'm pretty sure I still have my flow chart diagramming stencil in
a
drawer if I got ambitious enough to go looking for it. It's a plastic
ruler with cut-outs for all of the different shapes (boxes, curves,
etc.) that you put on a flow chart diagram which you can trace off of
the ruler instead of having to draw them by hand.
I've still got one of them, too. I don't know what they made it out of,
but even after twenty years it still pongs like it was dipped in vomit.
Thanks to that, I rarely used it. And it was generally quicker just to
sketch by had without fiddling with the stencil.
I never was much of an artist....
Me either, but I still draw most of my things free hand (generally
electronics, these days), and put up with the wavy lines and
non-grid-aligned layout. Ahh the fun of making circuit boards that ICs
had to go into, hand drawn using a Dalo pen, with the holes drilled
using a hand drill... Hmm, it doesn't quite fit...
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
3:36 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:49 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Don't forget flow charts - you were always supposed to start by
flow
charting the problem before generating any code.
Hmm, wasn't quite the way we were taught. Although we were taught to
use them, we generally started off with a design brief; then an outline
of your variables, controls, and the basic premise behind your program's
technique; then you started writing code using mnemonics (*); then you'd
write out the op codes for those mnemonics, along with their data (*YOU*
were the compiler); then you'd manually enter it into your
microcomputer.
If your program used complex conditionals, then you might bother with a
flowchart where you're designing your program technique. But we usually
did that in our heads.
* mnemonics are abbreviations for CPU operational codes, like "LDA" for
LoaD the following data into the A accumulator (pretty much like writing
in assembler).
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
3:34 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 13:21 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Les wrote:
> On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
> sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
> programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
> different, but I don't remember it.
>
> Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
> color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
> more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
Was the number actually punched in the card, or was it only printed
on the top of the card? Printed on the top of the card would not
require any modification of the card reader routine, and would not
eat up columns on the punch card. If I remember correctly, you only
had 80/card.
If the number was punched, I could picture a program that would
re-order the program based on the number, if the cards were messed
up, but you would probably have needed a mini-computer to do that,
and feed it to the mainframe.
Mikkel
No you didn't, we used a card sorter, it was a mechanical affair, with
a
drum that fed the cards past brushes which would touch the drum through
the hole in the card. This would activate a relay which would pick up
the appropriate stack of feeding reeds which routed the card to the
correct one of 10 locations. You selected which column to sort, and
started with the highest order column first (If I remember correctly).
We also had mechanical tape readers, the small hole in the center of
the tape was the drive. Small fingers would sense the holes punched in
the tape. 5 level, caps+numbers+a limited number of punctuation marks.
I also helped clean and adjust the teleltypes. Do any of you know what
the "stunt box" is?
Regards,
Les H
3:30 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2 Apr 2008 at 18:09, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
From: Matthew Saltzman <mjs(a)clemson.edu>
To: hlhowell(a)pacbell.net, For users of Fedora <fedora-
list(a)redhat.com>
Organization: Clemson University
Date sent: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:09:32 +0000
Copies to: Subject: Re: Linux is KING - Couldn't be
hacked - Mac, Vista went down in
flames
Send reply to: For users of Fedora <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
<mailto:fedora-list-
request(a)redhat.com?subject=unsubscribe>
<mailto:fedora-list-
request(a)redhat.com?subject=subscribe>
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:48 -0700, Les wrote:
> On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
> sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
> programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
> different, but I don't remember it.
Those weren't line numbers per se (in the sense that BASIC had line
numbers, for example). In FORTRAN, an 80-column card was divided into
fields:
Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
Columnt 1-5: is for line numbers and on many compilers they had to be right
aligned.
Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers
used
as targets for FORMAT, GOTO and "computed GOTO" (now *that* was a flow
control concept!), and DO statements. These did not have to obey any
ordering rules. There was no concept of an if-else block or a while
loop with a logical test, so flow control was handled by GOTOs of some
variety. Targeted statements were usually CONTINUE statements (no-ops),
because there was some ambiguity regarding when the targeted statement
was actually executed, and because it made reorganizing the flow a bit
easier (especially with punchcards[1]).
Column 6: Was used for continuing information from the previous card.
Generally putting a 1 in column 6 for the first continuation line, and 2, and so
on, but most didn't care. COBOL uses Column 7 for this, and uses a hyphen
if splitting a word or quoted text.
Column 7-72: Code.
Column 73-80: Ignored. Intended to be used for sequence numbers so you
could sort the cards down in order if somebody dropped the deck. The
numbers could be anything really, for example a three-letter alpha code
identifying the deck and a four-digit sequence number.
(Somebody is bound to correct me on the actual column numbers, now...)
Aside: In the early FORTRANs, the body of a loop was always executed
once, even though the test was at the top of the loop. So you needed a
guard if you wanted to avoid making any passes through the loop at all.
That changed with FORTRAN 77.
[1] Of course, you'd want to re-sequence cards at some point if you
reordered them.
>
> Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
> color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
> more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > Les wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> > >> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to
me
> > >> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> > >> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the
data
> > >> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> > >> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they
had
> > >> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
> > >>
> > >> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an
arcane art!
> > >>
> > >> ~~R
> > >>
> > > Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
> > >
> > > If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
> > > number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Les H
> > >
> > Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
> > use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
> > line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
> > branching instruction.
> >
> > Mikkel
> > --
> > fedora-list mailing list
> > fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
>
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Michael D. Setzer II - Computer Science Instructor
Guam Community College Computer Center
mailto:mikes@kuentos.guam.net
mailto:msetzerii@gmail.com
http://www.guam.net/home/mikes
Guam - Where America's Day Begins
+----------------------------------------------------------+
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu (Original)
Number of Seti Units Returned: 19,471
Processing time: 32 years, 290 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes
(Total Hours: 287,489)
BOINC@HOME CREDITS
SETI 5,085,758.225981 | EINSTEIN 1,509,008.886094 | ROSETTA
454,237.929708
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 6.5.8 -- QDPGP 2.61c
Comment: http://community.wow.net/grt/qdpgp.html
iQA/AwUBR/NgVCzGQcr/2AKZEQLhVACeKdlhywAaot68T29+iaA9oWunnAQAoKk7
m081Ek0UUaROPedjuwfKrqUP
=d/hA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
3:29 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by
supplying
a version of BASIC that for several operating systems.
And wasn't it awful... I know BASIC's sneered upon, as there are plenty
of better things, but BASIC was a simple starting position for a lot of
people. It was also the only system available for a lot of home
personal computing, for a long time. Though, it typically was a very
feature limited interpreter. We had it on a Data General mainframe,
amongst other languages, and that went in the opposite direction - very
featured, and gave you very verbose and lengthy error reports about your
syntax errors.
Many years ago I can remember tinkering around with Microsoft's BASIC on
the Amiga, since it was the only programming language I had to play with
on it, at the time. And actually managing to make a small relational
database with it, even though it hardly has the features that you need
for something like that. It wasn't anything really complex though, just
interrelated databases of services, clients, quotes, and the ability to
turn a quote into an invoice.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
1:53 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Gerhard Magnus wrote:
>
> I worked in a "computer room" once, a long time ago -- do they still
> have these? The hard drives were as big as washing machines and rattled
> as if they were on spin cycle.
>
They do still have computer rooms and for some reason they just keep
sucking more and more power to run and more air conditioning to cool.
http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HistoryPt4.htm
Enjoy the walk back!!!!
Michael Weiner
2:18 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, tom <tfreeman(a)intel.digichem.net> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:
You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are approaching four
score years. They should remember what they were doing about the time the
first commercial digital computers were released upon the world.
That would be the UNIVAC I in 1952, which went to the Census Bureau as I
recall.
I was too young for computing -- spent most of the time watching Arthur
Godfrey
and Jerry Lester (remember him?) on TV. Seems to me that was also the year
Elizabeth II was crowned, Adlai Stevenson lost the election to Ike, etc....
I got a way to go before I hit four-score!
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
2:11 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
2008/4/2 Michael Weiner <hunter(a)userfriendly.net>:
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Les Mikesell
<lesmikesell(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Gerhard Magnus wrote:
>
> >
> > I worked in a "computer room" once, a long time ago -- do they still
> > have these? The hard drives were as big as washing machines and
> > rattled
> > as if they were on spin cycle.
> >
>
> They do still have computer rooms and for some reason they just keep
> sucking more and more power to run and more air conditioning to cool.
http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HistoryPt4.htm
Enjoy the walk back!!!!
Michael Weiner
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Thanks for the link! I used to operate one of those 7094s back in the 60s.
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
2:08 p.m.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:
Les wrote:
> Me! Me! I know that one... Replaced by card controlled matrix devices.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 12:10 -0400, Dick Seabrook wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:50 PM, mjwestkamper
>> <mjwestkamper(a)weiinc.com> wrote:
>> Ever hear of:
>> a IBM 1401
>> an IBM 7090
>> Punch cards,
>> coding pad
>> FORTRAN
>> Yes, but how many remember "plug-to-c" ?
>> Dick S.
>>
>> --
>> Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
>> http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
>> --
>> fedora-list mailing list
>> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>>
>
>
Boy !! isn't great to here the Old hackers talk it over, great way to learn
"Computer History"
You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are approaching four
score years. They should remember what they were doing about the time the
first commercial digital computers were released upon the world.
2:02 p.m.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Les wrote:
> On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
> sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
> programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
> different, but I don't remember it.
> Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
> color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
> more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
Was the number actually punched in the card, or was it only printed on the
top of the card? Printed on the top of the card would not require any
modification of the card reader routine, and would not eat up columns on the
punch card. If I remember correctly, you only had 80/card.
If the number was punched, I could picture a program that would re-order the
program based on the number, if the cards were messed up, but you would
probably have needed a mini-computer to do that, and feed it to the
mainframe.
I seem to recall that the machine room at school had a card sorter which
would mechanically sort the cards. That sorter wasn't used much by the
time I got there as there was enough virtual memory on the computer(s) for
the school to perform the sort in memory and repunch (for a fee). Best to
not reorder your deck.
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, bruce wrote:
i recall my 1st use of a time share on the local university's
machine..
my 7th grade math teach was taking colleges courses, in like 1972.. and she
had access to a tele-type machine with the dialup phone couple hooked to the
machine...
the machine created rollup punched out paper spools that we had written our
"basic" programs on....
i thought punch cards were a step up when i got into college later on!
i say all this as i cruise on a 4G-Mem/250G-Drive/17" laptop on a fast
wireless network!
my god i'm old!!!
<<snip>>
Not really. I know two oldsters who saw the transition from assember to
FORTRAN et al. One of them (who got out of computing as a profession early
on) had difficulties wrapping his head around macroassemblers, or at
least that is what my brother who knows that individual better reports.
1:21 p.m.
Les wrote:
On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to
the
sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
different, but I don't remember it.
Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
Regards,
Les H
Was the number actually punched in the card, or was it only printed
on the top of the card? Printed on the top of the card would not
require any modification of the card reader routine, and would not
eat up columns on the punch card. If I remember correctly, you only
had 80/card.
If the number was punched, I could picture a program that would
re-order the program based on the number, if the cards were messed
up, but you would probably have needed a mini-computer to do that,
and feed it to the mainframe.
Mikkel
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing?
1:05 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wednesday 02 April 2008 12:41, Les wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:20 -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:56:54 -0500
>
> "Mikkel L. Ellertson" <mikkel(a)infinity-ltd.com> wrote:
> > I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
> > edit code, and would them write it to mag tape.
>
> Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow
> chart diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go
> looking for it. It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the
> different shapes (boxes, curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart
> diagram which you can trace off of the ruler instead of having to draw
> them by hand. I never was much of an artist....
I'm with you. Flowcharting software is much easier and more readable.
Too bad more programmers don't use it.
But today the "RAD" movement dispenses with design of any kind, formal
or informal, at least as it is taught. And please lets all kill the
phrase "Self Documenting Code". If it were self documenting, it
wouldn't be called code.
Regards,
Les H
We all could probably find our old flowcharting templates and maybe a few
examples of punch cards laying around. What about an IBM system 360 or 370
system reference card with all the neat conversion tables? Or even better
yet old tab machine wiring diagrams for machines like the 519, 557. 548, 402,
403, 407, & 085. I've still got those from High School. Fun times!
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down inflames
bruce wrote:
i recall my 1st use of a time share on the local university's
machine..
my 7th grade math teach was taking colleges courses, in like 1972.. and she
had access to a tele-type machine with the dialup phone couple hooked to the
machine...
the machine created rollup punched out paper spools that we had written our
"basic" programs on....
i thought punch cards were a step up when i got into college later on!
i say all this as i cruise on a 4G-Mem/250G-Drive/17" laptop on a fast
wireless network!
my god i'm old!!!
Even better - it was a 110 baud connection. The teletype was
probably 72 characters wide, all capitals. The paper tape had up to
8 full size holes and one small alignment hole. You were probably
punching 7 bit ASCII code, possibly with parity. The aliment hole
was used by a toothed sprocket to move the tape on the teletype, but
could also be used as a clocking bit for optical readers.
There was also a 5 bit version that didn't use ASCII... Both types
also had a 20ma or 60ma current loop interface. Great for long
distance wired serial communications. The bast part is that were
almost entirely mechanical, with very little electronics.
The teletype was also popular with early home computers like the
Altar 8008, and other S-100 systems. CP/M had teletype support.
Now I feel old - I owned a model 33 teletype.
Mikkel
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing?
12:28 p.m.
El mié, 02-04-2008 a las 12:53 -0400, Jim escribió:
Boy !! isn't great to here the Old hackers talk it over, great way to
learn "Computer History"
I feel like a baby :-)
Manuel
--
Manuel Arostegui Ramirez.
Electronic Mail is not secure, might not be read every day, and should not
be used for urgent or sensitive issues.
11:10 a.m.
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:50 PM, mjwestkamper <mjwestkamper(a)weiinc.com>
wrote:
Ever hear of:
a IBM 1401
an IBM 7090
Punch cards,
coding pad
FORTRAN
Yes, but how many remember "plug-to-c" ?
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
11:53 a.m.
Les wrote:
Me! Me! I know that one... Replaced by card controlled matrix
devices.
Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 12:10 -0400, Dick Seabrook wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:50 PM, mjwestkamper
> <mjwestkamper(a)weiinc.com> wrote:
> Ever hear of:
> a IBM 1401
> an IBM 7090
> Punch cards,
> coding pad
> FORTRAN
>
>
> Yes, but how many remember "plug-to-c" ?
> Dick S.
>
> --
> Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
> http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
Boy !! isn't great to here the Old hackers talk it over, great way to
learn "Computer History"
11:48 a.m.
On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
different, but I don't remember it.
Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Les wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
>> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
>> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
>> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
>> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
>> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
>>
>> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
>>
>> ~~R
>>
> Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
>
> If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
> number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
>
Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
branching instruction.
Mikkel
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
11:44 a.m.
Me! Me! I know that one... Replaced by card controlled matrix devices.
Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 12:10 -0400, Dick Seabrook wrote:
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:50 PM, mjwestkamper
<mjwestkamper(a)weiinc.com> wrote:
Ever hear of:
a IBM 1401
an IBM 7090
Punch cards,
coding pad
FORTRAN
Yes, but how many remember "plug-to-c" ?
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
11:41 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:20 -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:56:54 -0500
"Mikkel L. Ellertson" <mikkel(a)infinity-ltd.com> wrote:
> I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
> edit code, and would them write it to mag tape.
Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow chart
diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go looking for it.
It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the different shapes (boxes,
curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart diagram which you can trace off of
the ruler instead of having to draw them by hand. I never was much of an
artist....
I'm with you. Flowcharting software is much easier and more readable.
Too bad more programmers don't use it.
But today the "RAD" movement dispenses with design of any kind, formal
or informal, at least as it is taught. And please lets all kill the
phrase "Self Documenting Code". If it were self documenting, it
wouldn't be called code.
Regards,
Les H
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
Les wrote:
You mean before FORTRAN 77 of course?
Regards,
Les H
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 23:50 -0400, mjwestkamper wrote:
> Ever hear of:
> a IBM 1401
> an IBM 7090
> Punch cards,
> coding pad
> FORTRAN
>
Result just in:
Fortran 2 Algol 60
A 7090 or a 1401 would be considerably before Fortran 77. Those were the
days when a visual editor was a card punch machine.
Steve
11:27 a.m.
Les wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
>
> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
>
> ~~R
>
Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
Regards,
Les H
Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
branching instruction.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
11:10 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
You mean before FORTRAN 77 of course?
Regards,
Les H
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 23:50 -0400, mjwestkamper wrote:
Ever hear of:
a IBM 1401
an IBM 7090
Punch cards,
coding pad
FORTRAN
Richard England wrote:
> Tim wrote:
>> Tim:
>>
>>>> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>>>>
>>
>> Les:
>>
>>> I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>>>
>>
>> If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
>> counts.
>>
>> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
code,
>> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
>> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>>
>> Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
>> had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
>>
>>
> I understand they warmed them in their arm pits to save on electricity
> since it was only on for 5 hours a day....
>
--
Thunderbird
Linux 2.6.24.3-12
11:09 a.m.
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
>
>
> */Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:
>
> Tim:
> >> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>
> Les:
> > I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>
> If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
> counts.
>
> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
> code,
> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>
> Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
> had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
>
> =========
>
> Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
>
> Dropped a pile of them once.
>
> That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
> on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
> punch card machine
Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
~~R
Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
Regards,
Les H
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:56:54 -0500
"Mikkel L. Ellertson" <mikkel(a)infinity-ltd.com> wrote:
I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
edit code, and would them write it to mag tape.
Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow chart
diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go looking for it.
It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the different shapes (boxes,
curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart diagram which you can trace off of
the ruler instead of having to draw them by hand. I never was much of an
artist....
--
MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Melville Sask ~ http://www.melvilletheatre.com
9:49 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
mjwestkamper wrote:
Ever hear of:
a IBM 1401
an IBM 7090
Punch cards,
coding pad
FORTRAN
Don't forget flow charts - you were always supposed to start by flow
charting the problem before generating any code.
Programming in FORTRAN was fun. COBAL was way to verbose when you
were using punch cards and you were not that good of a typist. and
who can forget the Teletype console and paper tape...
Mikkel
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing?
10:08 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:56 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Craig White wrote:
>
> and as for everyone going on about punch cards...perhaps in 20 more
> years, it will be considered ancient history but now, there are way too
> many of us still around that remember them to make them an interesting
> story.
>
> Craig
>
I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
edit code, and would them write it to mag tape. I would then take
the tape down to the IBM 360 and you it as input data for a program
that would then output them to the high speed card punch. The only
problem was that the high speed punch would not print on the top of
the card, so it was harder to know what the card said. Now if only
they would have had the high speed punch on the same system as the
terminals...
----
the grand old days of sneaker net.
amazing the things that we used to do that in those days were considered
to be innovative/clever. Thankfully, there's been a little more
convergence of technology since then.
Craig
9:56 a.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
Craig White wrote:
and as for everyone going on about punch cards...perhaps in 20 more
years, it will be considered ancient history but now, there are way too
many of us still around that remember them to make them an interesting
story.
Craig
I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
edit code, and would them write it to mag tape. I would then take
the tape down to the IBM 360 and you it as input data for a program
that would then output them to the high speed card punch. The only
problem was that the high speed punch would not print on the top of
the card, so it was harder to know what the card said. Now if only
they would have had the high speed punch on the same system as the
terminals...
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
9:45 a.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:31 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Les wrote:
> Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
> (still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
> Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
> systems that ran various other OS's
> that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
> which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
> flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers,
> they just got the contract to write the OS for IBM, and were able to
> bootstrap that into the corporation you see today.
>
Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
a version of BASIC that for several operating systems. I can
remember loading it from tape, and later burning it to EPROM with a
small relocation program to move it into RAM at the address it
expected to run. (It was not relocatable...)
----
I have that tape still...
Microsoft's version for Apple...called 'Floating Point Basic Language'
for Apple ][ because my original Apple ][ had integer basic in ROM and
Floating Point Basic had to be loaded from a cassette. I do sort of
wonder if it has any value.
and as for everyone going on about punch cards...perhaps in 20 more
years, it will be considered ancient history but now, there are way too
many of us still around that remember them to make them an interesting
story.
Craig
9:31 a.m.
Les wrote:
Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
(still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
systems that ran various other OS's
that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers,
they just got the contract to write the OS for IBM, and were able to
bootstrap that into the corporation you see today.
Microsoft's entry into the personal computer market was by supplying
a version of BASIC that for several operating systems. I can
remember loading it from tape, and later burning it to EPROM with a
small relocation program to move it into RAM at the address it
expected to run. (It was not relocatable...)
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
10:50 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
Ever hear of:
a IBM 1401
an IBM 7090
Punch cards,
coding pad
FORTRAN
Richard England wrote:
Tim wrote:
> Tim:
>
>>> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>>>
>
> Les:
>
>> I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>>
>
> If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
> counts.
>
> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the code,
> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>
> Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
> had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
>
>
I understand they warmed them in their arm pits to save on electricity
since it was only on for 5 hours a day....
--
Thunderbird
Linux 2.6.24.3-12
10:36 p.m.
BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
*/Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:
Tim:
>> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
Les:
> I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
counts.
Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
code,
and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
corrections, then type the changes back in.
Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
=========
Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
Dropped a pile of them once.
That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
punch card machine
Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did
that to me
in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
~~R
10:32 p.m.
Tim wrote:
Tim:
>> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
>>
Les:
> I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
>
If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
counts.
Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the code,
and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
corrections, then type the changes back in.
Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
I understand they warmed them in their arm pits to save on electricity
since it was only on for 5 hours a day....
12:38 p.m.
--- Les <hlhowell(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
Several of us have responded to this thread, who did
you think did this?
Regards,
Les H
Sorry it takes so long to reply, I only check email
when I have access.
My comment was about the original post. I didn't name
the original poster because, frankly, that would have
made it a personal attack. (not my intention!) And, I
didn't quote the post because, that would make me
guilty of re-posting the personal info.
Sorry for the confusion
George
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total
Access, No Cost.
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
8:17 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 08:38 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
>On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:31 +1030, Tim wrote:
>> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
code,
>> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
>> corrections, then type the changes back in.
>
>No kidding?
>
>That's awesome!!!
>
>Manuel.
You are easily impressed I take it. That's exactly how I wrote code for an
application that involved commercial video tape preparation for on air use
with a very early automatic station break machine. For an RCA 1802 cpu,
where I didn't even have an assembler, I was looking up the hex code in the
programmers manual and entering it with a hex editor. This was in 1978. I
also built the Quest Super Elf 'computer' from a kit that it ran on, and all
the interfacing hardware including the video to control the then state of the
art Sony 28xx u-matic video tape machines. I used less than 2k of the 4k of
static ram it had, and which cost nearly 400 dollars then. That code, and
that machine were still in use at that tv station in Redding CA, in 1994, and
they had no plans to replace it with something newer then! When I went on
down the road, I left a paper copy of the code, with instructions on how to
adjust its timing to match the motion ballistics of any newer machine they
hooked up to it.
The next time I wrote code with an extended lifetime like that, was on a
TRS-80 Color Computer running OS9 level 1, with device drivers in assembly
using an assembler, and the main portion in Basic-09. That function was in
place of a $20,000 Grass Valley Group E-DISK package that our first GVG
300-2A/B production video switcher didn't come with. It outperformed that
$20k unit by 4x in speed, and gave the operators english language names for
their individual 'bags of tricks' files whereas the GVG used 2 digit hex
codes for the filenames. That was in 1989, and was used continuously to 2003
when that switcher was finally replaced with something a little 'greener'.
Because I could each into that switchers data paths so easily with it, there
were many times that to troubleshoot the switcher, I would reach into it with
little 10 line code snippets and tickle a specific function to see if it was
working correctly, and based on its responses, go replace a failed chip to
restore a failed operation.
That's code with long, useful lifetimes. You live intimately with it day
after day, fixing the glitches until there are no more bugs left to fix, it
Just Works(TM). How long does perfectly good code last today? Maybe 3 years
till its thrown out like the baby with the bath water for some reason this
now old fart fails to grok.
I'll give you mplayer as a perfect example. Or xmms, just to name 2 apps that
because they worked so well, now seem to be something bad, and must be
replaced with something that doesn't work, like pulseaudio, whatever the hell
it is, apparently just to give someone a new container of bugs to fix,
whatever. All I know is that since I had to re-install due to a failed drive
over the weekend, the only noise I get is the system beep, and my machine
will be otherwise mute until I rip it out again. We put that on cornfields
in Iowa to grow taller corn.
What is the usual fix for the pulseaudio induced silence?
Well, that's an interesting and amazing story I have to tell you, but
Tim was the first one showing his cards, that's why he got all my love,
just kidding :-)
I'm only 24, actually today's my birthday, (money accepted) so I'm not
used to all those rudimentary process when writing code for whatever you
need (do not take me wrong, that seems amazing, and I wish I could have
lived during the 60-80, all the most amazing things regarding to
computing took place those years, from my point of view.)
The oldest thing I have coded in was ADA and Haskell (which is horrible,
by the way) when I got in college (aside from the typical qbasic, you
know...)
Talking about xmms.....I still use it, It does exactly what I want, just
play music, I don't need anything else, therefore I do not run rhythmbox
or any other music tool.
Thanks for sharing that great story!
Manuel.
8:14 a.m.
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 05:52 -0700, BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
Dropped a pile of them once.
That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence
numbers on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
I've still got a collection of punch cards dotted around the place, we
used them as book marks for many years. Every now and then I'll find
one, when I pull a book out of the shelves.
Though ours weren't really "punch" cards, they're the ones you colour
in
bubbles with a lead pencil, rather than punch out a hole.
--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
8:09 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 08:38 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
The next time I wrote code with an extended lifetime like that, was
on a
TRS-80 Color Computer running OS9 level 1, with device drivers in assembly
using an assembler, and the main portion in Basic-09. That function was in
place of a $20,000 Grass Valley Group E-DISK package that our first GVG
300-2A/B production video switcher didn't come with. It outperformed that
$20k unit by 4x in speed, and gave the operators english language names for
their individual 'bags of tricks' files whereas the GVG used 2 digit hex
codes for the filenames.
And back then, you could expect your equipment to come with manuals that
explained the tricks that could be done with their gear. e.g. If it had
a serial or parallel port, the pins would documented, the function codes
would be listed... Or, the sales division would get you the books for
it.
Now, everything's a black box. One client's bought this Roland,
allegedly high-definition, digital video mixer (hi-def my left foot!,
that means high definition, not just able to output low-resolution video
with more pixels...). It has a port for the tally interface, that
mentions nothing about how to actually use it. Sure, it lists several
pins that you could have a tally signal on, depending on what mode its
in. But nothing that defines what the modes are, nor the output
voltages (TTL?, CMOS?, open-collector?, active low?).
--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
7:56 a.m.
Tim:
> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd
print the code,
> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> corrections, then type the changes back in.
Manuel Aróstegui:
No kidding?
That's awesome!!!
I hate to sound "not awesome," ;-) but it's not as fantastic as you
might think.
When you *invent* a program, you're supposed to work out how it should
work and what it should do, first. If you know what you're doing, you
get it right during this stage. Then you enter your code into the
computer, and it just works. (Then came Windows, with masses of its own
bugs, and *you* couldn't do a damn thing about them.)
Most bugs were down to making mistakes when entering your data, and
printing the code was the easiest way to check it all. I can certainly
scan more across long sheets of paper than the keyhole view of just part
of it you get through a VDU, and some have limited scrolling features,
or far too rapid scrolling, so it's quicker and easier to look for bugs
on paper (if you know what you're looking for). And you'll usually find
several, so that speeds debugging up, too.
What's more of a bastard to resolve is when you've made fundamental
errors in how to code your program (it does what you tell it to do, but
you've told it to do something stupid).
Tim, still waiting for one of the old codgers to say, "You young
whippersnappers have it easy, when we wanted to program we had to oil
the gears and stoke the engine..."
--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
7:52 a.m.
Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote: Tim:
> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
Les:
I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
counts.
Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the code,
and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
corrections, then type the changes back in.
Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
=========
Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.
Dropped a pile of them once.
That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
punch card machine
2:01 a.m.
Tim:
> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
Les:
I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?
If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
counts.
Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the code,
and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
corrections, then type the changes back in.
Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
8:16 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 14:00 -0700, George Arseneault wrote:
Don't mean to be critical... But, out of respect for
people's privacy (assuming they are in favor of
privacy) you should have cut and pasted the link
without all of those private email addresses. This is
a public list after all.
Don't take it personally, just a reminder to people
not to be careless with others info. Your post is
just a perfect example.
Feel free to burn me in effigy
George
Several of us have responded to this thread, who did you think did this?
Regards,
Les H
6:03 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 08:42 -0700, Les wrote:
Actually, Microsoft was a late comer to personal computers. I own
(still) an Altair 8800B, and owned a
Morrow Microdecision before that, both on CP/M. And prior to that I had
systems that ran various other OS's
that were a bit more limited, and one straight bootstrap system for
which you had to furnish an OS of your favorite
flavor. Microsoft did not create, or really enable personal computers
That was part of my point, too. Those of us who've used personal
computers before Windows ever existed, and systems other than DOS,
recognised it for the annoying crap that it was. And they're not the
groundbreakers that some would believe.
It took years for Microsoft to understand the notion of having, say, a
system way of printing. That the OS talked to the printer, and all
applications talked to the OS to print. Prior to that, you had a
plethora of (really bad) printer drivers for each application that
needed to print.
It took years for Microsoft, and those creating programs for their OS,
to realise the need for data portability between applications. i.e. We
don't need a gazillion picture types, we need to be able to open a
picture in a gazillion different programs, without conversion.
It took years for Microsoft to understand networking (I still think
they're far from it). It took years for Microsoft to start to
understand security.
They're way behind the ball in any number of areas. There's places that
still use very old mainframes for that reason.
If you're talking "personal" computers, I think things like the Amiga
and the Mac did far more for trailblazing personal computing than the
IBM compatible ever did.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
4 p.m.
Don't mean to be critical... But, out of respect for
people's privacy (assuming they are in favor of
privacy) you should have cut and pasted the link
without all of those private email addresses. This is
a public list after all.
Don't take it personally, just a reminder to people
not to be careless with others info. Your post is
just a perfect example.
Feel free to burn me in effigy
George
____________________________________________________________________________________
Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total
Access now
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com
8:10 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 14:07:17 -0700,
Les <hlhowell(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
representative. Have you tried browsing lately without Java? I
Are you sure you are not confusing java with javascript? Maybe we use
different kinds of sites, but I haven't run across a problem with not
having java enabled. There are a few sites where I am willing to enable
javascript in order to make a site work.
8:27 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 7:10 AM, Bruno Wolff III <bruno(a)wolff.to> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 14:07:17 -0700,
Les <hlhowell(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
> representative. Have you tried browsing lately without Java? I
Are you sure you are not confusing java with javascript? Maybe we use
different kinds of sites, but I haven't run across a problem with not
having java enabled. There are a few sites where I am willing to enable
javascript in order to make a site work.
I don't even have Java on my Fedora desktop and I browse with it all
the time. On my Windows machine I browse with NoScript, Javascript
blocked by default.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
4:55 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 20:54 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
In some ways both views have pros and cons. But consider the
possibilities that have opened up for humankind in general from this
one technology.
Yeah, technical support lines, anti-virus companies, spam...
I view being asked to fix someone's PC like they'd just asked me to
unblock their loo with my bare hands.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
4:58 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 14:07 -0700, Les wrote:
Have you tried browsing lately without Java?
I generally do, I don't find it that commonly used. I don't bother
installing or, or I disable it in Firefox.
However, trying to disable various options in MSIE that you consider
insecure, usually manages to bork the entire thing into an unusable
state. Thankfully, the days of really needing MSIE are getting quite
thin.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
7:02 p.m.
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 08:25 +1030, Tim wrote:
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 20:54 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> In some ways both views have pros and cons. But consider the
> possibilities that have opened up for humankind in general from this
> one technology.
Yeah, technical support lines, anti-virus companies, spam...
I view being asked to fix someone's PC like they'd just asked me to
unblock their loo with my bare hands.
I agree (to a point), and that was hardly the point I was making. If
computers weren't as widespread, then I can bet your user base would
probably not even exist. We'd still be on mainframes with dumb
terminals, and few services actually requiring to be run- ergo, less
employment for sysadmins.
And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Take time to consider where
life might have gone if your scenario had taken place, and be thankful
that it has turned out this way- your analogy just may have been a
literal possibility.
3:13 p.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
Paul Johnson <pauljohn32 <at> gmail.com> writes:
The article says Vista was hacked through a Java weakness that
probably affects all platforms. I wouldn't crow too loud about this
one.
According to:
http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/03/28/pwn-to-own-final-day-and-w...
it was actually Adobe Flash, not Java.
Yet another reason not to install the proprietary Flash crap!
Kevin Kofler
4:35 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
Paul Johnson <pauljohn32 <at> gmail.com> writes:
> The article says Vista was hacked through a Java weakness that
> probably affects all platforms. I wouldn't crow too loud about this
> one.
According to:
http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/03/28/pwn-to-own-final-day-and-w...
it was actually Adobe Flash, not Java.
Yet another reason not to install the proprietary Flash crap!
Kevin Kofler
And there isn't ONE java either
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
4:07 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 14:07 -0500, Chris wrote:
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:48:27 -0300 (ADT)
"George N. White III" <aa056(a)chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, Chris wrote:
>
> > Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
> >> El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
> >>> Read article
> >>
> >> That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face
everyday.
> >> I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as
> >> I've been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no
> >> mac experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running
> >> by a dumb administrator.
> >> It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be
> >> hacked than a windows in the same situation.
> >>
> >> But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real
> >> scenario.
> >>
> >> Anyways, I'm glad Linux survived, do not take me wrong :-)
> >> Manuel
> >
> > Let's also not forget the most important part of the article - it
> > mentioned something about Java allowing MS security to be
> > circumvented.
> >
> > That leads me to think that if Java was not installed on that box,
> > would it have been hacked?
>
> If you don't want to install Java you need to tell us what
> alternative is going to provide better security. Many developers use
> Java because the work needed to implement the functionality
> (including the attention to security issues) would be prohibitive.
I still feel that if Java was not installed on the MS box, it still
raises the question, would the box have been hacked?
Java is not part of the default install (afaik) XP, Vista, etc.
One might ask, perhaps the folks that setup these boxen, did they
knowingly install Java with the pre-thought that that would be a way
in.
> MS was chosen for this attack because the person who knew the Java
> exploit also happened to be familiar with MS. Such attacks often
> proceed in stages:
Here again, this seems unfair. These tests should have been done on
boxen that did not have 3rd part apps etc. Still seems like a tainted
test.
> 1. get user-level access via a browser, java, etc.
> 2. elevate to "admin/root" privileges, which is where knowledge of
> the specific OS comes in.
>
> Often the 1st step works on multiple platforms.
Assuming the multi-platforms are setup with as close to the same
programs as possible.
>
> > Perhaps not. So, I think the article is very misleading. To me, I
> > could care either way. as pointed out else where in this thread, a
> > properly patched and managed box (under any OS) can be very
> > difficult to hack.
>
> Or not, if you happen to know of an unpatched vulnerability.
>
> > I wonder why (at least in this article) OpenBSD was not mentioned.
> > Perhaps it was just a session that was betwix Linux & MS.
>
> OS X was the first to fall (via safari), so the BSD camp didn't fare
> very well.
>
As you do know, I specifically mentioned OpenBSD. I would like to see
them folks go against an out of the box install of Linux (any distro)
and OpenBSD - that would be a telling tale indeeed.
In any event, as we all also know, these sorts of tests and results can
be manipulated to reflect any ones agenda - I for one, have never been
a fan of these things. It really proves nothing.
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Well, to my
knowledge, Microsoft adds their own version of Javascript
(or at least used to) and did at one time make changes to Java which
made it less secure, first by providing a file access process that was
not part of the original specification by Sun. Now I don't know what
was on the Microsoft system, nor do I know if the attack was actually by
Java or Javascipt, which is often confused by even technical media,
although they are entirely different languages with different means of
employment. But without further knowledge, I suspect that they used a
normal users configuration, and that would include Microsoft's default
installs, whatever they are, and maybe Java was added to be
representative. Have you tried browsing lately without Java? I
therefore expect that Java was also on the Linux box as well. However
gaining admin level via Java or Javascript on a linux box is more
difficult than the standard installation of windows as used by home
users.
Regards,
Les H
2:12 p.m.
2008/3/29 Jim <mickeyboa(a)sbcglobal.net>:
Read article
Well guys, Linux is "KING" it couldn't be hacked, Vista and Mac went
down in flames.
Read article.
http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/032908-with-vista-breached-linux-unbe...
The article says Vista was hacked through a Java weakness that
probably affects all platforms. I wouldn't crow too loud about this
one.
--
Paul E. Johnson
Professor, Political Science
1541 Lilac Lane, Room 504
University of Kansas
5:54 a.m.
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 20:13 +1030, Tim wrote:
On Sat, 2008-03-29 at 19:04 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> I blame Microsoft and all the geeks who seem to feel for being geeks
> and want to dumb everything down.
Those of us who remember personal computing before Microsoft was but
tiny company would probably agree that it was a bad idea to make
computers something the ignorant could play with, they used to be the
domain of experts and people actually interested in computing. Computer
systems need to be much better designed before it's going to be okay for
toy computing, both to protect the ignorant, and everyone else that they
interfere with.
You're not a true computer admin unless you wear a white lab coat, and
have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
--
But then you probably wouldn't have the job you have now...
In some ways both views have pros and cons. But consider the
possibilities that have opened up for humankind in general from this one
technology. If computing wasn't as open as it is now, then we could
quite possibly be still banging rocks together in a cave somewhere...
4:27 a.m.
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 19:04 -0600, Arthur Pemberton escribió:
Ah. Then we can agree. Frankly, I blame Microsoft and all the geeks
who seem to feel for being geeks and want to dumb everything down.
Whatever you say.
--
Manuel Arostegui Ramirez.
Electronic Mail is not secure, might not be read every day, and should not
be used for urgent or sensitive issues.
4:56 a.m.
El dom, 30-03-2008 a las 20:13 +1030, Tim escribió:
On Sat, 2008-03-29 at 19:04 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> I blame Microsoft and all the geeks who seem to feel for being geeks
> and want to dumb everything down.
Those of us who remember personal computing before Microsoft was but
tiny company would probably agree that it was a bad idea to make
computers something the ignorant could play with, they used to be the
domain of experts and people actually interested in computing. Computer
systems need to be much better designed before it's going to be okay for
toy computing, both to protect the ignorant, and everyone else that they
interfere with.
Yep, that's why I think that having a good windows administrator and a noob running a
Linux server
you'll have more possibilities to hack the linux machine than the
Windows one.
Again, out of the box and running both systems by default, it is obvious
that Windows is going to suffer mucho more to keep itself clean.
Arthur, this is the third time I say that I'm GLAD that they didn't hack
the Linux box, but it doesn't mean that Linux is invincible and Windows
can be easily hacked by a dog.
There are probably out there servers owned by really good Windows
sysadmins which are truly difficult to get compromised, and servers
owned by dumb Linux sysadmins that get hacked every single week.
Manuel.
--
Manuel Arostegui Ramirez.
Electronic Mail is not secure, might not be read every day, and should not
be used for urgent or sensitive issues.
4:56 a.m.
Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
> Read article
That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face everyday.
I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as I've
been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no mac
experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running by a dumb
administrator.
It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be hacked
than a windows in the same situation.
But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real scenario.
Anyways, I'm glad Linux survived, do not take me wrong :-)
Manuel
Let's also not forget the most important part of the article - it
mentioned something about Java allowing MS security to be circumvented.
That leads me to think that if Java was not installed on that box, would
it have been hacked?
Perhaps not. So, I think the article is very misleading. To me, I could
care either way. as pointed out else where in this thread, a properly
patched and managed box (under any OS) can be very difficult to hack.
I wonder why (at least in this article) OpenBSD was not mentioned.
Perhaps it was just a session that was betwix Linux & MS.
Best Regards,
Chris
4:48 a.m.
>>>> "Tim" == Tim
<ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> writes:
Tim> Those of us who remember personal computing before Microsoft
Tim> was but tiny company would probably agree that it was a bad
Tim> idea to make computers something the ignorant could play
I don't. I think it is an excellent idea, but it has to be done very well.
Tim> You're not a true computer admin unless you wear a white lab
Tim> coat, and have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat
Tim> pocket... ;-)
Nay. If you don't KNOW the op-codes by heart, you're not qualified :-)
P.S. It's a long time since I knew them by heart - when I was young
and foolish.
--
Colin Adams
Preston Lancashire
4:43 a.m.
On Sat, 2008-03-29 at 19:04 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
I blame Microsoft and all the geeks who seem to feel for being geeks
and want to dumb everything down.
Those of us who remember personal computing before Microsoft was but
tiny company would probably agree that it was a bad idea to make
computers something the ignorant could play with, they used to be the
domain of experts and people actually interested in computing. Computer
systems need to be much better designed before it's going to be okay for
toy computing, both to protect the ignorant, and everyone else that they
interfere with.
You're not a true computer admin unless you wear a white lab coat, and
have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
6:35 p.m.
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:19 -0600, Arthur Pemberton escribió:
So you're saying a concentrated effort to hack a single machine
(only
one with Linux) is an easier test than machines randomly on the
internet operated by noobs who barely know how to change advanced
settings? The arguement is always made that noobs stick with the
defaults, most distro defaults are pretty secure.
I'm saying the opposite.
It's great they couldn't hack it, but as you say there're loads of
machines operated by noobs, so the fact of not being able to hack that
machine in the contest doesn't mean that the noobs can feel safer
because they run a Linux distro in their servers.
Manuel.
--
Manuel Arostegui Ramirez.
Electronic Mail is not secure, might not be read every day, and should not
be used for urgent or sensitive issues.
8:04 p.m.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Manuel Aróstegui <manuel(a)todo-linux.com> wrote:
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:19 -0600, Arthur Pemberton escribió:
> So you're saying a concentrated effort to hack a single machine (only
> one with Linux) is an easier test than machines randomly on the
> internet operated by noobs who barely know how to change advanced
> settings? The arguement is always made that noobs stick with the
> defaults, most distro defaults are pretty secure.
I'm saying the opposite.
It's great they couldn't hack it, but as you say there're loads of
machines operated by noobs, so the fact of not being able to hack that
machine in the contest doesn't mean that the noobs can feel safer
because they run a Linux distro in their servers.
Ah. Then we can agree. Frankly, I blame Microsoft and all the geeks
who seem to feel for being geeks and want to dumb everything down.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
1:19 p.m.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Manuel Aróstegui
<manuel(a)todo-linux.com> wrote:
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
> Read article
That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face everyday.
I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as I've
been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no mac
experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running by a dumb
administrator.
It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be hacked
than a windows in the same situation.
But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real scenario.
So you're saying a concentrated effort to hack a single machine (only
one with Linux) is an easier test than machines randomly on the
internet operated by noobs who barely know how to change advanced
settings? The arguement is always made that noobs stick with the
defaults, most distro defaults are pretty secure.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
11:33 a.m.
El sáb, 29-03-2008 a las 12:24 -0400, Jim escribió:
Read article
That's cool, but it's far to be the real scenario we face everyday.
I guess that Linux box was secure but the truth here, as far as I've
been able to see is that either Windows or Linux (I have no mac
experience) are both pretty insecure if they're been running by a dumb
administrator.
It is clear that a Linux, out of the box, has less chances to be hacked
than a windows in the same situation.
But for me, this hacking contest does not represent a real scenario.
Anyways, I'm glad Linux survived, do not take me wrong :-)
Manuel
--
Manuel Arostegui Ramirez.
Electronic Mail is not secure, might not be read every day, and should not
be used for urgent or sensitive issues.
12:46 a.m.
Matthew Saltzman wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:48 -0700, Les wrote:
> On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
> sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
> programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
> different, but I don't remember it.
>
Those weren't line numbers per se (in the sense that BASIC had line
numbers, for example). In FORTRAN, an 80-column card was divided into
fields:
Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used
as targets for FORMAT, GOTO and "computed GOTO" (now *that* was a flow
control concept!), and DO statements. These did not have to obey any
ordering rules. There was no concept of an if-else block or a while
loop with a logical test, so flow control was handled by GOTOs of some
variety. Targeted statements were usually CONTINUE statements (no-ops),
because there was some ambiguity regarding when the targeted statement
was actually executed, and because it made reorganizing the flow a bit
easier (especially with punchcards[1]).
Column 7-72: Code.
Column 73-80: Ignored. Intended to be used for sequence numbers so you
could sort the cards down in order if somebody dropped the deck. The
numbers could be anything really, for example a three-letter alpha code
identifying the deck and a four-digit sequence number.
(Somebody is bound to correct me on the actual column numbers, now...)
Aside: In the early FORTRANs, the body of a loop was always executed
once, even though the test was at the top of the loop. So you needed a
guard if you wanted to avoid making any passes through the loop at all.
That changed with FORTRAN 77.
[1] Of course, you'd want to re-sequence cards at some point if you
reordered them.
> Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
> color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
> more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>
>> Les wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
>>>
>>>> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
>>>> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
>>>> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
>>>> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
>>>> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
>>>> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
>>>>
>>>> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane
art!
>>>>
>>>> ~~R
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
>>>
>>> If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
>>> number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Les H
>>>
>>>
>> Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
>> use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
>> line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
>> branching instruction.
>>
>> Mikkel
>> --
>> fedora-list mailing list
>> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>>
>
You always incremented your statement numbers by 10 so when you had to
add a loop or goto you could add at least 9 before you had to redo all
the statement numbers.... tip from an almost geezer (hey you are not a
geezer, you're an "experienced person").
~~R
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Punch Cards.
On Wednesday 02 April 2008 12:41, Les wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:20 -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
> > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:56:54 -0500
> >
> > "Mikkel L. Ellertson" <mikkel(a)infinity-ltd.com> wrote:
> > > I can remember writing a BASIC program that let you type in, and
> > > edit code, and would them write it to mag tape.
> >
> > Someone mentioned flow charts. I'm pretty sure I still have my flow
> > chart diagramming stencil in a drawer if I got ambitious enough to go
> > looking for it. It's a plastic ruler with cut-outs for all of the
> > different shapes (boxes, curves, etc.) that you put on a flow chart
> > diagram which you can trace off of the ruler instead of having to draw
> > them by hand. I never was much of an artist....
>
> I'm with you. Flowcharting software is much easier and more readable.
> Too bad more programmers don't use it.
>
> But today the "RAD" movement dispenses with design of any kind, formal
> or informal, at least as it is taught. And please lets all kill the
> phrase "Self Documenting Code". If it were self documenting, it
> wouldn't be called code.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
We all could probably find our old flowcharting templates and maybe a few
examples of punch cards laying around. What about an IBM system 360 or
370
system reference card with all the neat conversion tables? Or even better
yet old tab machine wiring diagrams for machines like the 519, 557. 548,
402,
403, 407, & 085. I've still got those from High School. Fun times!
But do you have any lace cards?
This list is making me feel old. (I started with fortran on cards in
1972. And we had to carve each of the cards from buffalo hides. While the
buffalo were moving. And we were grateful!)
1:09 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:48 -0700, Les wrote:
On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to
the
sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
different, but I don't remember it.
Those weren't line numbers per se (in the sense that BASIC had line
numbers, for example). In FORTRAN, an 80-column card was divided into
fields:
Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used
as targets for FORMAT, GOTO and "computed GOTO" (now *that* was a flow
control concept!), and DO statements. These did not have to obey any
ordering rules. There was no concept of an if-else block or a while
loop with a logical test, so flow control was handled by GOTOs of some
variety. Targeted statements were usually CONTINUE statements (no-ops),
because there was some ambiguity regarding when the targeted statement
was actually executed, and because it made reorganizing the flow a bit
easier (especially with punchcards[1]).
Column 7-72: Code.
Column 73-80: Ignored. Intended to be used for sequence numbers so you
could sort the cards down in order if somebody dropped the deck. The
numbers could be anything really, for example a three-letter alpha code
identifying the deck and a four-digit sequence number.
(Somebody is bound to correct me on the actual column numbers, now...)
Aside: In the early FORTRANs, the body of a loop was always executed
once, even though the test was at the top of the loop. So you needed a
guard if you wanted to avoid making any passes through the loop at all.
That changed with FORTRAN 77.
[1] Of course, you'd want to re-sequence cards at some point if you
reordered them.
Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Les wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> >> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
> >> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> >> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
> >> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> >> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
> >> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
> >>
> >> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane
art!
> >>
> >> ~~R
> >>
> > Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
> >
> > If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
> > number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Les H
> >
> Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
> use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
> line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
> branching instruction.
>
> Mikkel
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
7:38 a.m.
New subject: Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames
On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Manuel Aróstegui wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:31 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the code,
> and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
> corrections, then type the changes back in.
No kidding?
That's awesome!!!
Manuel.
You are easily impressed I take it. That's exactly how I wrote code for an
application that involved commercial video tape preparation for on air use
with a very early automatic station break machine. For an RCA 1802 cpu,
where I didn't even have an assembler, I was looking up the hex code in the
programmers manual and entering it with a hex editor. This was in 1978. I
also built the Quest Super Elf 'computer' from a kit that it ran on, and all
the interfacing hardware including the video to control the then state of the
art Sony 28xx u-matic video tape machines. I used less than 2k of the 4k of
static ram it had, and which cost nearly 400 dollars then. That code, and
that machine were still in use at that tv station in Redding CA, in 1994, and
they had no plans to replace it with something newer then! When I went on
down the road, I left a paper copy of the code, with instructions on how to
adjust its timing to match the motion ballistics of any newer machine they
hooked up to it.
The next time I wrote code with an extended lifetime like that, was on a
TRS-80 Color Computer running OS9 level 1, with device drivers in assembly
using an assembler, and the main portion in Basic-09. That function was in
place of a $20,000 Grass Valley Group E-DISK package that our first GVG
300-2A/B production video switcher didn't come with. It outperformed that
$20k unit by 4x in speed, and gave the operators english language names for
their individual 'bags of tricks' files whereas the GVG used 2 digit hex
codes for the filenames. That was in 1989, and was used continuously to 2003
when that switcher was finally replaced with something a little 'greener'.
Because I could each into that switchers data paths so easily with it, there
were many times that to troubleshoot the switcher, I would reach into it with
little 10 line code snippets and tickle a specific function to see if it was
working correctly, and based on its responses, go replace a failed chip to
restore a failed operation.
That's code with long, useful lifetimes. You live intimately with it day
after day, fixing the glitches until there are no more bugs left to fix, it
Just Works(TM). How long does perfectly good code last today? Maybe 3 years
till its thrown out like the baby with the bath water for some reason this
now old fart fails to grok.
I'll give you mplayer as a perfect example. Or xmms, just to name 2 apps that
because they worked so well, now seem to be something bad, and must be
replaced with something that doesn't work, like pulseaudio, whatever the hell
it is, apparently just to give someone a new container of bugs to fix,
whatever. All I know is that since I had to re-install due to a failed drive
over the weekend, the only noise I get is the system beep, and my machine
will be otherwise mute until I rip it out again. We put that on cornfields
in Iowa to grow taller corn.
What is the usual fix for the pulseaudio induced silence?
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
6:36 p.m.
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 10:41 -0700, Les wrote:
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 00:00 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > Ric Moore wrote:
> > > cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which
would
> > > have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> > > Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty
much
> > > whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
> >
> > Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
> > Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
> > Ken Olson).
> >
> > I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
> > similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
> > same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
> >
> > IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
> > but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
> > and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
> > (as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
> > as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
> > scatterbrained at times).
>
> I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
> forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
> cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
> handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
> company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
> nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
> Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
> I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
> to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
> weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
> were priceless. Ric
>
I was overseas from 1972 to 1977, and did much of my early programming
and programming study then, using Fortran and paying for time on a
company timeshare.
I never met any of the folks I was reading about, and I was months
behind the curve, I think, (technical communications were not what they
are today), but I learned so very very much. I read every book I could
afford to buy, joined McGraw-Hill's book club and bought one or two
books nearly every month. It was tough to do that on a sailors salary
with a family to support, and studying took a lot of the little free
time I had (3 or 4 section duty, taking classes, standing watches 3 out
of 4 weekends or 2 out of three weekends), but I did get a lot done... I
earned an ASEE at University of Guam (it's part of the California system
of colleges), and got a First Class Radio Operators License, and passed
the Navy Chief ET's exam (not enough points to advance then). I did the
finals and the exams all in one week. It was punishing, but I had
operations coming up and I couldn't delay. I worked on the side some as
well. I remember getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a day. And I
continued that during my next shore tour as I earned an AA at Skagit
Valley Community college. Didn't realize I didn't need the AA to go on
in school. Wasn't smart enough to ask.
I learned, I wrote software to flash lights, make noises, even to say
the hex digits in place of a readout on one of my early boards. That
way I could follow the listing as it read them back to me. I figured
out how to make a comparator and wrote a resyncing program to allow
storing data on audio cassettes at 8K baud because I was tired of
waiting for the 300 baud modem. I never experienced a drop out with my
algorithm. But I didn't patent it, I thought it was too obvious. I
designed a SAR algorithm and used the system to sample voice at about a
10K rate. I was experimenting with voice input. I had a crazy idea of
listing programs by voice onto cassette tape and then being able to edit
them and reload them to run from assembly or some other language, but
without binary type storage, so they would always be available in source
form. Sounds crazy now, but at the time, it seemed like a good idea to
me.
I really wanted to be able to meet and talk to some of the other early
experimenters, but I was nearly half a world away. At that time I felt
so isolated from the world of bits and bytes that even now I can feel
it.
I hope some of the young people reading this list are inspired by our
words and our deeds to pursue ever greater goals. Maybe visit the
planets or even the stars. We are not meant to be bound, not to our
limitations, nor even to the earth. We, all people are meant to
explore, to learn, to develop, and to expand.
Regards,
Les H
Indeed. We were put on this earth to terraform it- WE are the guardians,
the park rangers, whatever. WE can make it what we want it to be. Never
mind environmental issues, if we want something to remain to enjoy then
we need to do something to keep it that way. Change is inevitable, and
maybe future generations will do as they will with the same area-
something different even.
Until we can do this here, then there wouldn't be much point going
somewhere else to be stranded without a clue. But yes, this is what the
universe is there for- to be explored, tamed even for our use.
As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
shit they put in the software.
Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
due to the lack of technology...
Anyway, thats my 2c. I do applaud your diligence Les- it was inspiring.
5862
days inactive
5872
days old
128 comments
40 participants
participants (40)
-
Alan -
Arthur Pemberton -
bruce -
BRUCE STANLEY -
Bruno Wolff III -
Chris -
Colin Paul Adams -
Craig White -
Da Rock -
Dick Seabrook -
Emanuel Machado -
Frank Cox -
Gene Heskett -
George Arseneault -
George N. White III -
George Yanos -
Gerhard Magnus -
Howard Howell -
Jim -
Kevin Kofler -
Les Mikesell -
Manuel Aróstegui -
Matthew Saltzman -
max -
Michael D. Setzer II -
Michael Hennebry -
Michael Weiner -
Mikkel -
mjwestkamper -
Nicholas Robinson -
Paul Johnson -
Ric Moore -
Richard England -
Rick Stevens -
Robin Laing -
Steve Underwood -
Terry Polzin -
Tim -
tom -
Tom Horsley