noon
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Thanks in advance,
-- Elliot
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
1:08 p.m.
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 13:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Thanks in advance,
-- Elliot
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
A thought.
There are niches many are capable of helping with and other niches that
many aren't that knowledgeable including myself. If somehow the list
could be broken down to groups S.A. System, X, web services, firewalls,
networking, etc., like the directory structure, those subjects desired
could be checked individually.
Me? I scan almost everything to learn more and pick up new ways of doing
new and old tasks.
--
jludwig <wralphie(a)comcast.net>
1:16 p.m.
jludwig said:
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 13:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
> If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
> unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
> time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
> fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
> would be useful too!
>
> Thanks in advance,
> -- Elliot
> I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
A thought.
There are niches many are capable of helping with and other niches that
many aren't that knowledgeable including myself. If somehow the list
could be broken down to groups S.A. System, X, web services, firewalls,
networking, etc., like the directory structure, those subjects desired
could be checked individually.
It sounds good in theory, but considering there are people having issues
just keeping fedora-list and fedora-test-list straight, I don't think more
mailing lists are the answer.
I've seen my share of "I know it is OT, but..." and "I run X on my web
server, that's why I posted an HTTPd question to the X list".
--
William Hooper
3:50 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 14:08:23 PM -0400, jludwig (wralphie(a)comcast.net) wrote:
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 13:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
> If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
> unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be...
[snip]
A thought.
There are niches many are capable of helping with and other niches that
many aren't that knowledgeable including myself. If somehow the list
could be broken down to groups S.A. System, X, web services, firewalls,
networking, etc., like the directory structure, those subjects desired
could be checked individually.
The only way to make this happen is:
1) never ever answer to messages without a clear, meaningful
subject limited to one issue, hijacked threads and such
2) friendly beat with a stick all those who are really responsible
of the mess, ie those who hide information by violating rule 1
3) repeat point 2 15/20 times
4) goto 1
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
We have to pursue this subject of fun very seriously if we
want to stay competitive in the 21st century. -George Yeo,
Singapore's Minister of State for Finance.
2:40 p.m.
I am perfectly happy with the lists as they are. The only improvement I can
think of is maybe a fedora-newbies or fedora-help-my-x-doesnt-work list ;-)
Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Thanks in advance,
-- Elliot
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
2:45 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 01:00:22PM -0400, Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
One thing that would help: please put a short mnemonic of the version
of Fedora and relevant package(s) to which you refer in your subject
line. e.g.:
FC2T3: Squid x.y.z Crashes
FC1 as updated: OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 Problem
The main reasons for this request is that on high traffic lists, folks
will triage which emails they will read by the subject line. I triage
emails by subject line.
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
You must be in government. :-)
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
3:54 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 13:45:56 PM -0600, Charles Curley (charlescurley(a)charlescurley.com)
wrote:
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 01:00:22PM -0400, Elliot Lee wrote:
> If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
> unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
> time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
> fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
> would be useful too!
One thing that would help: please put a short mnemonic of the version
of Fedora and relevant package(s) to which you refer in your subject
line. e.g.:
FC2T3: Squid x.y.z Crashes
FC1 as updated: OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 Problem
This would just create confusion, I fear. First of all, there are
quite some ways to refer to the same version of the distro: FC2T3,
Fedora test 3, etc.... The real way to do this, if any, would be to
do as with Red Hat, one list per release.
The real problem, however, is that the "triage" you mention below
works to speed things up only if used to answer to well formed
questions (see my other reply to this thread) and ignore all the
others.
The main reasons for this request is that on high traffic lists,
folks will triage which emails they will read by the subject line. I
triage emails by subject line.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
Knowledge is not information, it's transformation- Osho
4:43 p.m.
Charles Curley said:
One thing that would help: please put a short mnemonic of the
version
of Fedora and relevant package(s) to which you refer in your subject
line. e.g.:
FC2T3: Squid x.y.z Crashes
FC1 as updated: OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 Problem
For one thing, FC Test questions and FC release questions don't belong on
the same list anyway :-)
--
William Hooper
5:04 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 05:43:04PM -0400, William Hooper wrote:
Charles Curley said:
> One thing that would help: please put a short mnemonic of the version
> of Fedora and relevant package(s) to which you refer in your subject
> line. e.g.:
>
> FC2T3: Squid x.y.z Crashes
> FC1 as updated: OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 Problem
For one thing, FC Test questions and FC release questions don't belong on
the same list anyway :-)
Well, that isn't clear. The descriptions at
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ are rather
terse.
By way of illustration, here's a boundary situation: I've just loaded
the latest FCT, and I have a question regarding setting up a
particular application, but the question isn't specific to the test
release. Do I ask on the test list or the general list?
My answer is: on the general list, because I don't believe the
question is specific to the current test release, and the audience is
wider on the general list.
And in any case, adding the mnemonic is harmless.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
5:23 p.m.
Charles Curley said:
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 05:43:04PM -0400, William Hooper wrote:
>
> Charles Curley said:
>
> > One thing that would help: please put a short mnemonic of the version
> > of Fedora and relevant package(s) to which you refer in your subject
> > line. e.g.:
> >
> > FC2T3: Squid x.y.z Crashes
> > FC1 as updated: OpenOffice.org 1.1.1 Problem
>
> For one thing, FC Test questions and FC release questions don't belong
> on
> the same list anyway :-)
Well, that isn't clear. The descriptions at
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ are rather
terse.
By way of illustration, here's a boundary situation: I've just loaded
the latest FCT, and I have a question regarding setting up a
particular application, but the question isn't specific to the test
release. Do I ask on the test list or the general list?
Test release -> Test list. Pretty simple. The only corner case would be
when they are the same version, in which case either. If you ask on the
general list all suggestions would assume you are using the FC release and
may not apply to the FCT.
--
William Hooper
2:48 p.m.
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Thanks in advance,
-- Elliot
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
I think this lists is a valuable resource for Fedora users (beginner and
advanced users). Not only for technical questions but also for general
Linux issue's.
It's amazing to see how many answers or ideas you get within 24 hrs. when
posting a question.
Martijn
2:55 p.m.
On Apr 28, 2004 at 13:00, Elliot Lee in a soothing rage wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
I think it would be good if there was a list of rules detailing
what
was expected of subscribers in term of how to post, posting to the
relevant list etc. As we all know threads get long, so trimming
.sigs and what is not relevant to the conversation helps.
Inline posting - this is a definite yes. Top posting should be a
no-no and explicitely spelt out. Thread hijacking should go the
way of the dodo bird too.
If we get a set of rules, these should be sent to ppl when they
subscribe and sent to current users as well. The fact is RH is
providing resources to us at considerable expense I am sure. Seems a
few rules on how those resources could be best utilitized is not out
of place. Hope this could be a starting place.
N.Emile...
--
Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org)
Switch to: http://www.speakeasy.net/refer/190653
It is indeed desirable to be well descended, but the glory belongs to
our ancestors.
-- Plutarch
15:42:56 up 39 days, 4:15, 4 users, load average: 0.10, 0.03, 0.01
3:59 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 15:55:54 PM -0400, ne... (akabi(a)speakeasy.net) wrote:
I think it would be good if there was a list of rules detailing what
was expected of subscribers in term of how to post, posting to the
relevant list etc.
It exists. Just google for "How to ask questions the smart way" or
"Netiquette".
They don't work for the same reason why spam works. As long as people
who mess the lists violating those rules get answers, they'll keep
ignoring them. Flaming them is not an option, of course.
Still, if all they got was nothing, or a really polite request to
"read this and that, post again, and we'll kill each other for the
honor to help you first"... things may change...
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
A good man is intelligent, and a bad man is also an idiot. Moral and
intellectual characteristics go together - Jorge Luis Borges
4:05 p.m.
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 16:59, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 15:55:54 PM -0400, ne... (akabi(a)speakeasy.net)
wrote:
> I think it would be good if there was a list of rules detailing what
> was expected of subscribers in term of how to post, posting to the
> relevant list etc.
It exists. Just google for "How to ask questions the smart way" or
"Netiquette".
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
4:21 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 03:55:54PM -0400, ne... wrote:
On Apr 28, 2004 at 13:00, Elliot Lee in a soothing rage wrote:
>If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
>unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
>time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
>fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
>would be useful too!
I think it would be good if there was a list of rules detailing what
was expected of subscribers in term of how to post, posting to the
relevant list etc. As we all know threads get long, so trimming
.sigs and what is not relevant to the conversation helps.
Inline posting - this is a definite yes. Top posting should be a
no-no and explicitely spelt out. Thread hijacking should go the
way of the dodo bird too.
E.g. http://www.charlescurley.com/netiquette.html
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
5:59 p.m.
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 10:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
I'm glad you asked. I was on the list when the daily postings were so
numerous that just getting through the subjects was a real chore. I
expect when FC2 is release that we see another surge. I believe that
implementing the following could help reduce the volume and provide
better user satisfaction. Hopefully these suggestions would be easy to
implement.
1. Add a FAQ link to the sign up page and or the welcoming message.
Ideally this FAQ is community supported. Wiki? There are even a couple
of good Fedora FAQ sites already in existence that could be linked.
2. Also on the sign up screen or the welcoming message, provide some
posting etiquette guidelines. Just a short list. There are just too
many flames about posting etiquette. Make it easy for newbies to get
information. They'll figure it out in time.
3. At the bottom of each post add the faq link.
Thanks for asking,
--
Clifford Snow
6:56 p.m.
Clifford Snow wrote:
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 10:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
>If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
>unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
>time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
>fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
>would be useful too!
>
>
I'm glad you asked. I was on the list when the daily postings were so
numerous that just getting through the subjects was a real chore. I
expect when FC2 is release that we see another surge. I believe that
implementing the following could help reduce the volume and provide
better user satisfaction. Hopefully these suggestions would be easy to
implement.
1. Add a FAQ link to the sign up page and or the welcoming message.
Ideally this FAQ is community supported. Wiki? There are even a couple
of good Fedora FAQ sites already in existence that could be linked.
2. Also on the sign up screen or the welcoming message, provide some
posting etiquette guidelines. Just a short list. There are just too
many flames about posting etiquette. Make it easy for newbies to get
information. They'll figure it out in time.
3. At the bottom of each post add the faq link.
Thanks for asking,
This is the most succinct and precise list of suggestions I have seen.
Reminders of 1) netiquette, 2) information sources, and 3) topics.
Included in the welcome mail and on each message footer would be good.
Also provide easier access to references from the web page. Read that
as "more links", or a link to a resources list page. We know it would
not be all encompassing, but it would be a starting point.
In 30 days I have seen references to over 100 good-to-know sites, but
since they are not in a single page that is easily locatable they
quickly get lost in the jumble. Some method to collect/present these
resources in a user frienly form would help all on the list; both as
relates to mail volume, and as a resource center for themselves.
8:19 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 03:00, Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
First, I am really happy with the content within these lists. There's so
many knowledgeable people willing to offer some really good
tips/tricks/advice/help. I learn something new every day here! :-)
However, the volume of messages is quite overwhelming (mainly the
fedora-list). Perhaps we could sub-divide fedora-list into fedora1-list,
fedora2-list, ...? Or maybe yarrow-list and then "whatever the code name
for FC2 is"-list as per previous RHL conventions?
Regards,
-Matt
--
"Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?"
- Bob Young on the benefits of the open source development model.
mhelios - www.fedoraforum.org
9:26 p.m.
See foot notes below too:
On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 01:00:22PM -0400, Elliot Lee wrote:
Subject: Taming the mailing lists?
Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC]. (1)
Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases
<fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Shorten this to something like "FC Fedora Discuss <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
(2)
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Send a more informative "Welcome Message" to new list subscribers.
Begin it with a reference URL that people are invited to bookmark.
Cover threads, top posting, netiquette, FAQ, archive searching (3)
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Make sure the mailing list footer/signature is visible on lots of mailers. (4)
This is where longer essays like "For users of Fedora Core release" belong.
Fix the default yum and up2date config files (5) ;+}
Adopt ten FAQ sites (6).
Let me elaborate...
1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC], because the majority of
new posters have no clue about threaded mail readers, procmail filters
and large volume mail management. The first day after subscribing to
a high volume mailing list like this the rules of order get lost in a
total disorganized blur. This little change will help new arrivals
and if short will pose no pain on others.
2) Shorten the quoted name of the list in the reply to and from
as much as possible. "Fedora discussion <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>"
Inspect how adding the mailing list to an address book works on
multiple mail readers. What is with this lonnnnnnggggg name.
Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Is just too long and today adding the list to an address book is now
partly crippled. No wonder folks hijack threads.
3) Begin a welcome to the list message it with a reference URL that
people can bookmark. Cover threads, top posting, netiquette, FAQ,
archive searching. A single URL is easy to save. A URL can stay
current. An introductory file while a necessary first step is often
not saved. It would be useful to send this message then 12 hours
later activate the list so the "welcome" is not lost in the flood.
4) Make sure the mailing list footer/signature is visible on lots of
mailers. Perhaps this is a top post bottom post culture thing but the
number of unsubscribe messages and questions tell me that it is not
being seen.
5) The single most common new user problem is how to stay current and
setup yum/up2date to use a mirror. Please design a way to fix the
default yum and up2date actions to help people configure their config
files better! Too many of us have embellished config files but how
do we get the basic vanilla mirror stuff in place.
6) Adopt TEN FAQ sites. Frequently asked questions frequently trigger
rants, RTFM, and other non productive threads that are less than
helpful to most beginners.
Community sponsored FAQ's are one way that the user community
to assist and help. I picked ten but a good short list one
that has a long list is necessary.
The bulk of the new arrivals have no clue what a FAQ is or the magic
words to toss at a search engine to get good results. Ponder the
first two things that Google finds for Yarrow ...
Schneier.com: Yarrow
... Yarrow. A secure pseudorandom number generator ... About
botanical.com -
A Modern Herbal | Yarrow - Herb Profile and ... Common
Yarrow. Common Yarrow (Achillea millefolium LINN.).
We know why this is silly but a beginner does not.
7) Consider renaming the list "FCB Fedora Core Beginner". This can
set expectations for readers and posters. There may be some demand
for a "FCW Fedora Core Wizard" list as a result but the wizard know
who is who and help each other.
8) Consider threads that have more than 5 postings as one of: a) bug
report or b) rants. The rants are obvious - hit 'd'. The others are
commonly problems looking for solutions. Example#1: mp3 players. The
number of mp3 postings is massive. Perhaps the mp3 dummy plugin for
xmms and other players could pop up a help window that gave some
information? Example#2: up2date gpg download error could pop open a
list of possible causes and solutions. The current error is
equivalent to "BZZZZ error, bad boy go to the back of the line". It
could give the top three: a)download failed, try again, b) load
missing redhat keys thus, c) non Redhat package ignore this one time
only or load their key.
Bottom line is that FC has to support itself out of the box better.
9) It is time to change the Fedora.Redhat.com web pages. Sadly I use
Google to find stuff because the structure is dated. Today they are
more of an engineers project page than end user pages. There are user
interfaces that understand user 'flow' and then there are feature
interfaces that enumerate all the work to do for the manager and the
engineer. Engineering managers tend to build the second users need
'flow'. Some engineers just get it right because they have a vision.
Others are managing their todo list and details. At this point in
time the web design needs to shift from engineer to user.
10) Ponder a way to integrate man, info and other help systems.
I have a gazibyte of documents on my box but I have no navigation
tools that seem to do what I expect. I end up starting with
"locate" then "less" then a browser.
Documentation is an anthology and some sane way is needed to build a
new index and toc as each package is added. See: /usr/share/doc/ and
the 732+ piles of good but mostly hidden stuff there.
BTW: Thanks to who ever fixed the multiple language apache document
part of apache in FC2. It took me way too long to get mine right on
FC1. http://localhost.localdomain/manual/ Check your
/etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf.rpmnew file if you have not already.
--
T o m M i t c h e l l
/Dev/null the ultimate in secure storage.
9:37 p.m.
Tom 'Needs A Hat' Mitchell said:
[snip]
1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC], because the majority
of
new posters have no clue about threaded mail readers, procmail filters
and large volume mail management.
Seems to me it would make more sense to help them learn about these
things, not clutter up the subject.
2) Shorten the quoted name of the list in the reply to and from
[snip]
Is just too long and today adding the list to an address book is now
partly crippled. No wonder folks hijack threads.
Funny, my address book lets me put what ever name in I want for addresses...
--
William Hooper
10:07 p.m.
William Hooper wrote:
Tom 'Needs A Hat' Mitchell said:
[snip]
>1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC], because the majority of
>new posters have no clue about threaded mail readers, procmail filters
>and large volume mail management.
>
>
Seems to me it would make more sense to help them learn about these
things, not clutter up the subject.
>2) Shorten the quoted name of the list in the reply to and from
>
>
[snip]
>Is just too long and today adding the list to an address book is now
>partly crippled. No wonder folks hijack threads.
>
>
Funny, my address book lets me put what ever name in I want for addresses...
The list names could be a bit shorter. If I get attatchments with the
message, the folder list on the left shrinks. When I get to a message
without an additional attachment, it goes back to a rational state.
This is when rading mail in mozilla.
Jim
--
Caution: breathing may be hazardous to your health
12:33 a.m.
It would appear that on Apr 29, Tom 'Needs A Hat' Mitchell did say:
Let me elaborate...
1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC],
<snip>
This little change will help new arrivals and if short will pose no
pain on others.
I don't agree, It MIGHT help new arrivals who subscribed to so many new
lists that they can't keep track of which is which. But sometimes making
a subject meaningful requires as many characters as will reasonably be
displayed. Losing even the 1st 4 could be painful.
2) Shorten the quoted name of the list in the reply to and from
as much as possible. "Fedora discussion <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>"
<snip>
Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases
<fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Is just too long and today adding the list to an address book is now
partly crippled. No wonder folks hijack threads.
Hunh? I suppose it could look messy in your addressbook if your software
inserts it for you. But you should be able to edit it without a problem.
That said. It wouldn't hurt it to be a bit shorter. But to keep it
meaningful according to the current purpose of THIS list perhaps:
-> Reply-To: Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
3) Begin a welcome to the list message it with a reference URL that
people can bookmark. Cover threads, top posting, netiquette, FAQ,
archive searching. A single URL is easy to save. A URL can stay
current. An introductory file while a necessary first step is often
not saved. It would be useful to send this message then 12 hours
later activate the list so the "welcome" is not lost in the flood.
Yes and NO... adding an extra 12 hour delay would frustrate new users
who signed up because they needed help... If there is real concern about
it getting lost in the "flood" make it part of a confirmation e-mail
along with a click or reply to activate the list... If the flood doesn't
happen till they respond to it, it can't get lost in the flood.
4) Make sure the mailing list footer/signature is visible on lots of
mailers. Perhaps this is a top post bottom post culture thing but the
number of unsubscribe messages and questions tell me that it is not
being seen.
YES!
With pine I get a line of text at the bottom that says:
[ Note: This message contains email list management information ]
This includes a link that pine hi-lights for me. if and only if I select
it I see a list of management links. The reply link works. The archive
link doesn't. (the others I didn't test)
* A method to view archive of messages sent to the list.
Select HERE to view the archive.
But when I select "HERE"
pine wants to send my browser to:
file:///archives/fedora-list
<sigh>
5) The single most common new user problem is how to stay current
and
setup yum/up2date to use a mirror. Please design a way to fix the
default yum and up2date actions to help people configure their config
files better! Too many of us have embellished config files but how
do we get the basic vanilla mirror stuff in place.
This would be a great thing for fedora to do... But I don't see it as
part of taming the list?
6) Adopt TEN FAQ sites. Frequently asked questions frequently
trigger
rants, RTFM, and other non productive threads that are less than
helpful to most beginners.
Community sponsored FAQ's are one way that the user community
to assist and help. I picked ten but a good short list one
that has a long list is necessary.
<snip>
I don't know how many of them we need but as long as the list management
stuff included a link to a list of FAQ links... then it shouldn't be a problem
if there were several FAQs.
7) Consider renaming the list "FCB Fedora Core Beginner".
This can
set expectations for readers and posters. There may be some demand
for a "FCW Fedora Core Wizard" list as a result but the wizard know
who is who and help each other.
Please don't do that. Maybe "FCU Fedora Core Users" But the welcome
message and FAQs are a better place to "set" expectations.
8)
<snip>
No comment.
9) It is time to change the Fedora.Redhat.com web pages. Sadly I
use
Google to find stuff because the structure is dated. Today they are
more of an engineers project page than end user pages.
<snip>
At this point in time the web design needs to shift from engineer to
user.
I'd agree that the pages need to be for the users. But I suppose those
engineers are users too.
10) Ponder a way to integrate man, info and other help systems.
I have a gazibyte of documents on my box but I have no navigation
tools that seem to do what I expect. I end up starting with
"locate" then "less" then a browser.
Again, I don't see this as taming the list... But integrate away. But
please do so in such a way as to allow people who are already used to the
existing "help" systems to start with the familiar tool...
Documentation is an anthology and some sane way is needed to build a
new index and toc as each package is added. See: /usr/share/doc/ and
the 732+ piles of good but mostly hidden stuff there.
Again, I don't see this as taming the list... But YES... An index to
installed packages wouldn't hurt. What I'd like to see is a list of
pathnames for each packages doc files, AND it's config files.
--
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>>
But if I actually knew everything, then I'd know I was an idiot...
1:31 a.m.
At 23:33 4/29/2004, you wrote:
> 1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC],
<snip>
> This little change will help new arrivals and if short will pose no
> pain on others.
Not true. It's been discussed for *years*, and every time the conclusion is
that the headers provide guidance as to which list is which, and that users
can/should filter and file using whatever mechanism they please, but that
the subject tags are not the panacea they look like. In short, they're not
in use because they're not useful. They *look* useful, but every smaller
list on which I participate has eventually removed them as being more pain
than gain.
> An introductory file while a necessary first step is often
> not saved. It would be useful to send this message then 12 hours
> later activate the list so the "welcome" is not lost in the flood.
Why, oh why, oh why would you think that a 12-hour delay is a good thing?
It's going to frustrate the hell out of people who want help RFN, and it's
going to be annoying as hell, and let's face it: the ones who need those 12
hours to let a single URL sink in are the ones who don't give a damn and
won't read it anyway. Forgive the bluntness, but that right there is WIDOM:
Worst Idea Of Month [tm].
> 5) The single most common new user problem is how to stay
current and
> setup yum/up2date to use a mirror. Please design a way to fix the
> default yum and up2date actions to help people configure their config
> files better!
Fixed for FC2 already.
> 7) Consider renaming the list "FCB Fedora Core
Beginner". This can
> set expectations for readers and posters. There may be some demand
> for a "FCW Fedora Core Wizard" list as a result but the wizard know
> who is who and help each other.
What you would achieve is to destroy the community, nothing less than that.
If all the experts went off to their own list, who would help the newbies?
And if no one taught the newbies netiquette, would they teach themselves?
No... civilization as we know it would fall. This is fedora-list, for *all*
users of stable Fedora Core releases. Netiquette will be taught and
enforced as the community wishes, and everyone is welcome.
Beginner lists don't work, since beginners want to talk to experts. So they
join the expert list, and now you have two lists with everyone in them.
Just won't work.
Cheers,
--
Rodolfo J. Paiz
rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com
http://www.simpaticus.com
2:56 a.m.
Hi Rodolfo,
(I think you just replied to the wrong person/message :) but
anyway... )
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:31:19 -0600
"Rodolfo J. Paiz" <rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com> wrote:
At 23:33 4/29/2004, you wrote:
> > 1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC],
><snip>
> > This little change will help new arrivals and if short
> > will pose no pain on others.
Not true. It's been discussed for *years*, and every time
the conclusion is that the headers provide guidance as to
which list is which, and that users can/should filter and
file using whatever mechanism they please, but that the
subject tags are not the panacea they look like. In short,
they're not in use because they're not useful. They *look*
useful, but every smaller list on which I participate has
eventually removed them as being more pain than gain.
Well, IMHO, and if we're talking about "new arrivals" here,
don't you think it'd be easier for them to "scan" which
subjects/messages belong to the Fedora List?
I'm sure not all beginners know how to filter messages. And,
if they decided to use filtering then it'd be easier for them
to set it up. (i.e. move all messages with [FC] on subject
line to folder "foobar", etc.)
[...]
--
- E -
11:18 a.m.
It would appear that on Apr 30, - Edwin - did say:
Hi Rodolfo,
(I think you just replied to the wrong person/message :) but
anyway... )
<snip>
on Apr 29, Tom 'Needs A Hat' Mitchell did say:
> > > This little change will help new arrivals and if
short
> > > will pose no pain on others.
on Apr 30, Rodolfo did say:
> Not true. It's been discussed for *years*, and every time
> the conclusion is that the headers provide guidance as to
> which list is which, and that users can/should filter and
> file using whatever mechanism they please, but that the
> subject tags are not the panacea they look like. In short,
> they're not in use because they're not useful. They *look*
> useful, but every smaller list on which I participate has
> eventually removed them as being more pain than gain.
on Apr 30, - Edwin - did
say:
Well, IMHO, and if we're talking about "new arrivals"
here,
don't you think it'd be easier for them to "scan" which
subjects/messages belong to the Fedora List?
I'm sure not all beginners know how to filter messages. And,
if they decided to use filtering then it'd be easier for them
to set it up. (i.e. move all messages with [FC] on subject
line to folder "foobar", etc.)
Your Right Edwin, Rodolfo replied to the quotes of what Tom said in my
reply... Doesn't bother me though, I agree with most of what he said.
Speaking of which, I don't know what filtering you use, but if it's
actually much easier to tell it to search the Subject: header for "[FC]"
than to search for a Reply-To: header with "fedora-list(a)redhat.com" in
it, then I suggest you shop for a better mail filter.
It's really not the lists fault if new arrivals don't yet know how to
filter messages. Besides which, if we add "[FC]" to the Subject: header
to make such manual/visual scanning slightly easier, we only prolong the
time that they will deny themselves the benefits of filtering, because
they 'think' it's harder to set up than to keep doing it manualy....
What would be useful would be some how-to links in the welcome message.
(And possibly listed in a "useful-links" link added to the list management
data appendage in case they didn't know they wanted to save the welcome
message.)
It would be good if the how-to links not only included beginner tutorials
for server based filters. But some suggested settings for {transitionally?}
using the filtering built into some "popular" mail clients including
<gag> outlook {for those stuck with a windows machine until they get
fedora working <wink>.}
That is, Make it easy for the beginner to implement some form of
filtering rather than making it easier to avoid.
Well that's my "2 cents"*10^"nth degree" worth anyway...
--
| --- ---
| Joe (theWordy) Philbrook <o> <o>
| J(tWdy)P ^
| <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>> /---\ "bla bla bla..."
| \___/ "...and bla..."
At least I know my mouth is running, I just can't find the off button!
11:05 p.m.
(Not that this is all about "Taming the mailing lists" but...)
On 2004/05/01, at 1:18, Joe(theWordy)Philbrook wrote:
[...]
Your Right Edwin, Rodolfo replied to the quotes of what Tom said in
my
reply... Doesn't bother me though, I agree with most of what he said.
Okay...
Speaking of which, I don't know what filtering you use, but if
it's
actually much easier to tell it to search the Subject: header for
"[FC]"
than to search for a Reply-To: header with "fedora-list(a)redhat.com" in
it, then I suggest you shop for a better mail filter.
Huh? Better mail filter? Even crappy mail client can scan a Reply-To:
header.
It's really not the lists fault if new arrivals don't yet
know how to
filter messages. Besides which, if we add "[FC]" to the Subject: header
to make such manual/visual scanning slightly easier,
Aha! you just said the magic phrase -- "slightly easier"... *that* was
the main point.
we only prolong the
time that they will deny themselves the benefits of filtering, because
they 'think' it's harder to set up than to keep doing it manualy....
And why do you think that they'll think *that* way? C'mon, by the time
they figure out they can do something like that, they'll probably figure
out how to do it in different ways. The idea is, if they were given a
"visual hint" (e.g. something like [FC] on the subject line), then they
would probably start thinking of "filtering" their messages...
What would be useful would be some how-to links in the welcome
message.
(And possibly listed in a "useful-links" link added to the list
management
data appendage in case they didn't know they wanted to save the welcome
message.)
Okay, now we're back on topic ;) Yeah, I'm sure something like that is
needed. (Or, perhaps something like that sent once a week, etc.)
It would be good if the how-to links not only included beginner
tutorials
for server based filters. But some suggested settings for
{transitionally?}
using the filtering built into some "popular" mail clients including
<gag> outlook {for those stuck with a windows machine until they get
fedora working <wink>.}
:)
That is, Make it easy for the beginner to implement some form of
filtering rather than making it easier to avoid.
Well, that depends on how a person thinks...
Well that's my "2 cents"*10^"nth degree"
worth anyway...
My two centavos here ;)
- E -
7:26 a.m.
It would appear that on May 1, - Edwin - did say:
On 2004/05/01, at 1:18, Joe(theWordy)Philbrook wrote:
> Speaking of which, I don't know what filtering you use, but if it's
> actually much easier to tell it to search the Subject: header for
> "[FC]"
> than to search for a Reply-To: header with "fedora-list(a)redhat.com" in
> it, then I suggest you shop for a better mail filter.
Huh? Better mail filter? Even crappy mail client can scan a Reply-To:
header.
Which was my point. The part I was speaking of was where you said it
would be easier for them to set up the filtering...
=> on Apr 30, - Edwin - did say:
=> > if they decided to use filtering then it'd be easier for them
=> > to set it up. (i.e. move all messages with [FC] on subject
=> > line to folder "foobar", etc.)
Now if you think seeing the [FC] in the Subject: will make it easier for
them to think of the concept of filtering because they can see something
to filter on before they even know there is such a thing as an Reply-To:
header... Well I'd concede that's possible. But if we include the
How-To links in the welcome and subscription reminder messages etc...
the lists volume should give them the idea. And being pointed at the
HOW-To might teach them to start looking things up...(well I can dream
can't I)<grin>
> It's really not the lists fault if new arrivals don't
yet know how to
> filter messages. Besides which, if we add "[FC]" to the Subject: header
> to make such manual/visual scanning slightly easier,
Aha! you just said the magic phrase -- "slightly easier"...
*that* was
the main point.
Where as automatic filtering is (_once_set_up_) *MUCH* easier. Some of
us would find the [MC] in the subject to be a pain. I use filtering to
group all the "FC" messages to the same folder, Then I visually Bscan the
displayed portion of the subject to determine if the thread/subject is
worth reading... If you "prepend" the subject with it (like is usually done
with the "Re:" for replies). it would leave less visible subject for me to
use to visually scan for "interesting" reading. And it would, (if a different
subject from the preceding message in the threaded view) not have the
advantage Re: has of being the same as the preceeding... And if a reply
with a refocused subject is deep enough in the thread, then anything arbitrarily
inserted before the senders subject makes visual scan for interesting difficult:
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) Original long description of prob
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-Re:Original long description of
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-Re:Original long description
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-Re:Original long descriptio
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-Newbie hijacked thread inter
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-Re:Newbie hijacked thread
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-reply "New subject" Not
inte
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-RE:reply "New subject"
Not
-> N ## mmm dd Sender Identification(size) |-interesting "modified su
On the other hand I'd have no objection to [FC] being appended to the
END of the subject:
=> Subject: Original long description of problem [MC]
=> Subject: |-Re:Original long description of problem [MC]
=> Subject: |-Re:Original long description of problem [MC]
=> Subject: |-Re:Original long description of problem [MC]
=> Subject: |-Newbie hijacked thread interesting topic [MC]
=> Subject: |-Re:Newbie hijacked thread interesting topic [MC]
=> Subject: |-reply "New subject" Not interesting topic [MC]
=> Subject: |-RE:reply "New subject" Not interesting topic [MC]
=> Subject: |-interesting "modified subject" with new point [MC]
As this would not interfere with with my visual scanning. While
Prepending it would be very annoying:
=> Subject: [MC] Original long description of problem
=> Subject: |-[MC] Re:Original long description of problem
=> Subject: |-[MC] Re:Original long description of problem
=> Subject: |-[MC] Re:Original long description of problem
=> Subject: |-[MC] Newbie hijacked thread interesting topic
=> Subject: |-[MC] Re:Newbie hijacked thread interesting topic
=> Subject: |-[MC] reply "New subject" Not interesting topic
=> Subject: |-[MC] RE:reply "New subject" Not interesting topic
=> Subject: |-[MC] interesting "modified subject" with new point
Well that's more than enough of that says he to himself... I hope I
didn't waste too much bandwidth on this already {allegedly} tired topic,
to textually illustrate my objection to "[MC]". I just have doubts that it
would be implemented as an append rather than a prepend so I'm wanting
to avoid it any way I can. (smile)
--
| --- ---
| Joe (theWordy) Philbrook <o> <o>
| J(tWdy)P ^
| <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>> /---\ "bla bla bla..."
| \___/ "...and bla..."
At least I know my mouth is running, I just can't find the off button!
12:07 a.m.
You have all been writing furiously:
In my opinion the solution is very simple,
first analyse the problem, I believe it is newbies in particular.
They subscribe to mailing list and the first thing they do is post a
whole lot of "How do I's"
If the mailing list sent the newbie a welcome note that gave guidance to
the newbie we would not have half this problem.
I believe that if the welcome note included various short guides, like
Netiquette and a guide to google and how to search the archives,
A big bold "Have you tried the following before you post your question?"
This is a simple thing and could be setup in an hour. And could minimise
the amount of small stuff and already covered topics mailed to the list.
This is my 2c
--
| --- ---
| Joe (theWordy) Philbrook <o> <o>
| J(tWdy)P ^
| <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>> /---\ "bla bla bla..."
| \___/ "...and bla..."
At least I know my mouth is running, I just can't find the off button!
--
Chadley - Linux Rocks
Welcome to my world.
******************************************************************
This mail is free for distribution. You are free to - delete it - resend
it - use it in anyway that makes you happy. I am not responsible for it
or its content due to ignorance.
Enjoy the adventures of Linux
*******************************************************************
7:51 a.m.
You have all been writing furiously:
In my opinion the solution is very simple,
first analyse the problem, I believe it is newbies in particular.
They subscribe to mailing list and the first thing they do is post a
whole lot of "How do I's"
If the mailing list sent the newbie a welcome note that gave guidance to
the newbie we would not have half this problem.
I believe that if the welcome note included various short guides, like
Netiquette and a guide to google and how to search the archives,
A big bold "Have you tried the following before you post your question?"
This is a simple thing and could be setup in an hour. And could minimise
the amount of small stuff and already covered topics mailed to the list.
This is my 2c
The truth in the matter is, it's a mailing list, it cannot be tamed, it
should not be tamed, and the only problem that is being experianced right
now is the lack of true issues to talk about.
That's the only reason why I replyed.
Steve Berry
linux runs on my other box.
3:33 p.m.
I think a well moderated forum with people directing
threads based on what level of assistance is needed by
the user posting the thread would be very effective.
Neil
--- Chadley Wilson <chadley(a)pinteq.co.za> wrote:
You have all been writing furiously:
In my opinion the solution is very simple,
first analyse the problem, I believe it is newbies
in particular.
They subscribe to mailing list and the first thing
they do is post a
whole lot of "How do I's"
If the mailing list sent the newbie a welcome note
that gave guidance to
the newbie we would not have half this problem.
I believe that if the welcome note included various
short guides, like
Netiquette and a guide to google and how to search
the archives,
A big bold "Have you tried the following before you
post your question?"
This is a simple thing and could be setup in an
hour. And could minimise
the amount of small stuff and already covered topics
mailed to the list.
This is my 2c
> --
> | --- ---
> | Joe (theWordy) Philbrook <o> <o>
> | J(tWdy)P ^
> | <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>> /---\ "bla bla bla..."
> | \___/ "...and bla..."
>
> At least I know my mouth is running, I just
can't find the off button!
--
Chadley - Linux Rocks
Welcome to my world.
******************************************************************
This mail is free for distribution. You are free to
- delete it - resend
it - use it in anyway that makes you happy. I am not
responsible for it
or its content due to ignorance.
Enjoy the adventures of Linux
*******************************************************************
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe:
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
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4:48 p.m.
At 14:33 5/4/2004, you wrote:
I think a well moderated forum with people directing
threads based on what level of assistance is needed by
the user posting the thread would be very effective.
There are two serious obstacles to this:
1. Find the people to do the moderating.
2. Make the experienced posters visit all threads.
The point is that all such things *would* work. Would, conditional contrary
to fact. They in fact do not, and the reason such plausibly good ideas
don't work is that they involve a lot more work for people. Yes, the newbie
just posts the one message. But someone has to moderate it, and delays are
introduced, and then the experts have to read through a bunch of threads in
a forum which takes more time and effort, and they then have to answer that.
Contrast this to the mailing list, which is loud and disorganized and
unstructured but *fast*. I read through most of the 300 messages a day I
get, and I am able to do this for several reasons:
* I can read a mailing list offline. This means that mail gets
read any time *I* have time, not just when I'm on the network.
* I skip messages that are so poorly formatted that I can't make
sense of them in 3 seconds or less. These are the ones who quote two pages
(or twenty!) of stuff to add one line, where I have trouble finding the
text, who top-post and confuse the order of messages, or who simply do not
make any sense at all.
* I also skip anything that quotes the entire digest, messages
from the digest where the subject has not been changed, and messages with
no subject.
* If I can see that a thread is not interesting or that I cannot
help that poster, I delete the entire thread immediately. (This is why
people should not hijack threads and should always start a new thread for a
new question.)
* Hitting "delete" and loading the next message takes less than
one second. To hit "next" on a forum and wait for the next message
generally requires at least three seconds. Multiply 2 seconds by 300 and
you have 10 minutes lost EVERY DAY.
* I can archive useful or important messages locally, whereas on a
forum I'd have to cut/paste/store somehow.
Most highly-experienced users find mailing lists easier for large volumes.
Those users are not going to take the time and effort to move to a forum,
and if they do they are not going to participate as much. While I'm happy
that people (including you) care enough to think about and propose new ways
of doing things so that everyone is happier, I am by now firmly convinced
that lots of people (including me) would not participate in fora and so
fora are not adequate replacements for mailing lists.
Just my $0.02 as a "young fart" of 32, but having been around the Internet
since 1991.
Cheers,
--
Rodolfo J. Paiz
rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com
http://www.simpaticus.com
10:08 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-05-04 at 17:48, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
At 14:33 5/4/2004, you wrote:
Snip
* I can read a mailing list offline. This means that mail
gets
read any time *I* have time, not just when I'm on the network.
* I skip messages that are so poorly formatted that I can't make
sense of them in 3 seconds or less. These are the ones who quote two pages
(or twenty!) of stuff to add one line, where I have trouble finding the
text, who top-post and confuse the order of messages, or who simply do not
make any sense at all.
* I also skip anything that quotes the entire digest, messages
from the digest where the subject has not been changed, and messages with
no subject.
* If I can see that a thread is not interesting or that I cannot
he
Just my $0.02 as a "young fart" of 32, but having been around the Internet
since 1991.
snip
--
Rodolfo J. Paiz
rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com
http://www.simpaticus.com
I had been searching for an answer for this thread that
could touch a
nerve of reality, but you did it first. Everything you had to say makes
sense to me.
Also, I have seen too many times where many committed people that have
put in hard time and work in a project without any praise for their
efforts give up and walk away.
We should be thoughtful enough to remember these dedicated souls and be
grateful that they have put forth efforts that many times brings only
the reward of satisfaction of a job well done.
--
jludwig <wralphie(a)comcast.net>
11:37 a.m.
On Tuesday 04 May 2004 02:48 pm, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
There are two serious obstacles to this:
1. Find the people to do the moderating.
2. Make the experienced posters visit all threads.
Rodolfo, you've made some excellent points, far better than I could.
May I quote your entire post to some people I know who desperately need
to shut down their forums and start some mailing lists?
LSMFT
Jeff
--
Jeff Lasman, nobaloney.net, P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 US
Professional Internet Services & Support / Consulting / Colocation
Our blists address used on lists is for list email only
Phone +1 909 324-9706, or see: "http://www.nobaloney.net/contactus.html"
12:43 p.m.
At 10:37 5/5/2004, you wrote:
Rodolfo, you've made some excellent points, far better than I
could.
May I quote your entire post to some people I know who desperately need
to shut down their forums and start some mailing lists?
Thanks! And for the record, anything I post to a mailing list I define as
for public use and benefit. Use for whatever purpose suits you, and
delighted that it *was* useful in any way.
LSMFT
Saw this on the other thread, but I miss the significance of the phrase...?
You wanna educate me some?
--
Rodolfo J. Paiz
rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com
http://www.simpaticus.com
1:02 p.m.
On Wednesday 05 May 2004 10:43 am, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
>LSMFT
Saw this on the other thread, but I miss the significance of the
phrase...? You wanna educate me some?
When I was a kid this acronym was on the "Lucky Strike" cigarette
package and on their adverts here in the USA; it stands for "Lucky
Strike Means Fine Tobacco".
We then sixth graders came up with some other good ideas, such as "Loose
Suspenders Mean Falling Trousers" (and others less mentionable).
So when the thread turned to acronym definition, I decided to have some
fun with it.
That's all <smile>.
Jeff
--
Jeff Lasman, nobaloney.net, P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 US
Professional Internet Services & Support / Consulting / Colocation
Our blists address used on lists is for list email only
Phone +1 909 324-9706, or see: "http://www.nobaloney.net/contactus.html"
8 p.m.
On Wednesday 05 May 2004 13:43, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
At 10:37 5/5/2004, you wrote:
>Rodolfo, you've made some excellent points, far better than I
> could.
>
>May I quote your entire post to some people I know who desperately
> need to shut down their forums and start some mailing lists?
Thanks! And for the record, anything I post to a mailing list I
define as for public use and benefit. Use for whatever purpose
suits you, and delighted that it *was* useful in any way.
>LSMFT
Saw this on the other thread, but I miss the significance of the
phrase...? You wanna educate me some?
Thats a sales phrase, dating to about 50 years ago, repeated ad
infinitum on the radio of the day, and even into tv days.
LSMFT="Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco". Lucky Strike was (and may
still be, I quit cold turkey 15 years ago and frankly don't follow
that sort of stuff anymore) a brand of cigarettes sold here in the
US. I smoked them for a bit 55 some years ago, but then switched to
Camels for the next 40 or so years. But I got sick of being sick, so
I quit. Simple cause and effect decision, really.
--
Rodolfo J. Paiz
rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com
http://www.simpaticus.com
--
Cheers, gene
8:21 a.m.
It would appear that on May 3, Chadley Wilson did say:
You have all been writing furiously:
In my opinion the solution is very simple,
first analyse the problem, I believe it is newbies in particular.
They subscribe to mailing list and the first thing they do is post a
whole lot of "How do I's"
If the mailing list sent the newbie a welcome note that gave guidance to
the newbie we would not have half this problem.
I believe that if the welcome note included various short guides, like
Netiquette and a guide to google and how to search the archives,
A big bold "Have you tried the following before you post your question?"
This is a simple thing and could be setup in an hour. And could minimise
the amount of small stuff and already covered topics mailed to the list.
This is my 2c
Ya know Chadley, I mostly agree with you. If all the suggestions I've
read in this thread boiled down to to your above recommendation with only
the addition of putting URLs to those same guides and tutorials in a
monthly reminder notice ( even old hands sometimes forget things ) I'd be
happy with the results.
toodles
--
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>>
12:27 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 19:26, Tom 'Needs A Hat' Mitchell wrote:
<snipped>
1) Add a mailing list tag to the subject [FC], because the majority of
new posters have no clue about threaded mail readers, procmail filters
and large volume mail management. The first day after subscribing to
a high volume mailing list like this the rules of order get lost in a
total disorganized blur. This little change will help new arrivals
and if short will pose no pain on others.
Experienced linux users have little problem filtering email. It would
be interesting to learn which mail client new users use, evolution? If
it is evolution, then it can easily sort on the list without having to
resort to adding a mail list tag. I would vote leave the subject alone.
2) Shorten the quoted name of the list in the reply to and from
as much as possible. "Fedora discussion <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>"
Inspect how adding the mailing list to an address book works on
multiple mail readers. What is with this lonnnnnnggggg name.
Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Is just too long and today adding the list to an address book is now
partly crippled. No wonder folks hijack threads.
When I first started out, I hijacked threads not realizing that just
changing the subject did not change the thread. It's not intuitive to
the user. For me it had nothing to do with the name. It just seemed
easier to reply to a message, change the subject and voila, I had a new
thread. It's either a user education issue, i.e. better upfront notice,
or a UI problem with my mail client.
3) Begin a welcome to the list message it with a reference URL that
people can bookmark. Cover threads, top posting, netiquette, FAQ,
archive searching. A single URL is easy to save. A URL can stay
current. An introductory file while a necessary first step is often
not saved. It would be useful to send this message then 12 hours
later activate the list so the "welcome" is not lost in the flood.
Good suggestion but I would send the message out immeadiately. Get the
person attention right from the start. Then monthly included it with
the subscription reminder email.
5) The single most common new user problem is how to stay current and
setup yum/up2date to use a mirror. Please design a way to fix the
default yum and up2date actions to help people configure their config
files better! Too many of us have embellished config files but how
do we get the basic vanilla mirror stuff in place.
I think you are addressing a quality issue with the distribution. FC1
definitely had a problem with the up2date configuration. I've read that
it is being address in FC2. The FAQ is the place were the short comings
of the distribution can be addressed. FAQs for MP3, Real Networks,
flash, java, etc.
6) Adopt TEN FAQ sites. Frequently asked questions frequently trigger
rants, RTFM, and other non productive threads that are less than
helpful to most beginners.
Community sponsored FAQ's are one way that the user community
to assist and help. I picked ten but a good short list one
that has a long list is necessary.
The bulk of the new arrivals have no clue what a FAQ is or the magic
words to toss at a search engine to get good results. Ponder the
first two things that Google finds for Yarrow ...
Schneier.com: Yarrow
... Yarrow. A secure pseudorandom number generator ... About
botanical.com -
A Modern Herbal | Yarrow - Herb Profile and ... Common
Yarrow. Common Yarrow (Achillea millefolium LINN.).
We know why this is silly but a beginner does not.
Not sure what point you are trying to make.
7) Consider renaming the list "FCB Fedora Core Beginner". This can
set expectations for readers and posters. There may be some demand
for a "FCW Fedora Core Wizard" list as a result but the wizard know
who is who and help each other.
If the list was targeted to newbies, who would help
them?
8) Consider threads that have more than 5 postings as one of: a) bug
report or b) rants. The rants are obvious - hit 'd'. The others are
commonly problems looking for solutions. Example#1: mp3 players. The
number of mp3 postings is massive. Perhaps the mp3 dummy plugin for
xmms and other players could pop up a help window that gave some
information? Example#2: up2date gpg download error could pop open a
list of possible causes and solutions. The current error is
equivalent to "BZZZZ error, bad boy go to the back of the line". It
could give the top three: a)download failed, try again, b) load
missing redhat keys thus, c) non Redhat package ignore this one time
only or load their key.
Good suggestions to improve users experience.
Bottom line is that FC has to support itself out of the box better.
Agreed.
9) It is time to change the Fedora.Redhat.com web pages. Sadly I use
Google to find stuff because the structure is dated. Today they are
more of an engineers project page than end user pages. There are user
interfaces that understand user 'flow' and then there are feature
interfaces that enumerate all the work to do for the manager and the
engineer. Engineering managers tend to build the second users need
'flow'. Some engineers just get it right because they have a vision.
Others are managing their todo list and details. At this point in
time the web design needs to shift from engineer to user.
Agreed the Fedora page should have a place to show "engineering" plans
as well as a user section. Ideally it would include a full FAQ. Those
FAQ's that conflict with legal issues, such as MP3, should be directed
off site.
10) Ponder a way to integrate man, info and other help systems.
I have a gazibyte of documents on my box but I have no navigation
tools that seem to do what I expect. I end up starting with
"locate" then "less" then a browser.
Documentation is an anthology and some sane way is needed to build a
new index and toc as each package is added. See: /usr/share/doc/ and
the 732+ piles of good but mostly hidden stuff there.
Agreed. There probably exists a software package that does what you
want, but I don't know what it is. Anyone?
Clifford Snow
11:54 a.m.
Elliot Lee wrote:
If you feel that the Fedora mailing lists are becoming a little
unmanageable or are not as valuable as they could be, would you take the
time to e-mail me with your thoughts on the problem? (private e-mail is
fine) If you think that there's no problem at all, hearing that opinion
would be useful too!
Thanks in advance,
-- Elliot
I keep committing atrocities in an attempt to learn from my mistakes.
Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists. Forums give the ability to
seperate different categories of problems and discussion.
The major advantage I see for a forum compared to a mailing list is that
a forum is more of a "browsing" medium, and mailing list just stuff
everything down your throat. I want to check what sort of software
problems people have, but to do so with a mailing list is intimidating
(when I didn't check my email for a few days and found over a thousand
emails, I certainly didn't read them all).
Right now, I go to fedoraforum.org for help, but it doesn't have nearly
the support base these mailing lists have. A combination of the mailing
list membership with a forum would be nervana and would solve what I
believe to be the "taming" problem.
12:57 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 11:54:49 AM -0500, Mikha ben Avraham (mikhame(a)sbcglobal.net) wrote:
Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists. Forums give the
ability to seperate different categories of problems and discussion.
The same do mailing lists, if netiquette is respected.
The major advantage I see for a forum compared to a mailing list is
that
a forum is more of a "browsing" medium, and mailing list just stuff
everything down your throat. I want to check what sort of software
problems people have, but to do so with a mailing list is intimidating
(when I didn't check my email for a few days and found over a thousand
emails, I certainly didn't read them all).
Uh? Sorry, what is the difference between looking at a thousand
messages inside your email client window and the same thousand
messages inside your browser window? And who ever said that you are
forced to read every email you receive?
Maybe you meant to say that since forum may offer predefined subjects/
areas, they pre-sort clueless postings a bit better (visually
speaking) than a mailing list. Even in that case, however, if you
follow ten different forums, you'll save much more time when they are
all reformatted to one single interface that *you* chose (email client)
than jumping back and fort among the same number of sites designed
with ten different intervaces.
Forums are OK for casually following one or two subjects, not for
heavy usage in many areas. A corollary of this is that people with the
greatest expertise, who may help newbies more, won't waste time on
forums, but prefer mailing lists.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
"The SUN TROPIC beauty farm reopens today: featuring exotic swimming
pools, and, under the palm trees, **UVA lamps**"
(unluckily for humankind, a REAL ad that I read in a real magazine)
3:20 p.m.
M. Fioretti wrote:
Uh? Sorry, what is the difference between looking at a thousand
messages inside your email client window and the same thousand
messages inside your browser window? And who ever said that you are
forced to read every email you receive?
The difference is as you talk about below: predefined subject
categories. Also, it takes less time for me to load a forum then it does
for me to download my email. I'm on DSL and it still loads faster.
Maybe you meant to say that since forum may offer predefined
subjects/
areas, they pre-sort clueless postings a bit better (visually
speaking) than a mailing list. Even in that case, however, if you
follow ten different forums, you'll save much more time when they are
all reformatted to one single interface that *you* chose (email client)
than jumping back and fort among the same number of sites designed
with ten different intervaces.
For the most part, if you want the simple functions of view topic->reply
to topic then all the major forum software will function in the same
manner with nearly the same interface.
Forums are OK for casually following one or two subjects, not for
heavy usage in many areas. A corollary of this is that people with the
greatest expertise, who may help newbies more, won't waste time on
forums, but prefer mailing lists.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
Another corollary could just be personal preference. I can imagine that
for the most part, the people helping the newbies out are old-timers
that either "learned the internet" when forums weren't either availiable
or popular (I'm 18, so perhaps I am mistaken on this, so it's just a
guess), or simply prefer the interface over the normal forum interface.
Look at it this way, I can register a username in fedoraforum.org and
automatically I have access to the same things people suggest to do with
mailing lists: predefined subject categories. They would certainly taim
mailing lists, as they do forums. But a newbie to both mailing lists and
forums will find learning a forum to be easier than mailing lists. A
newbie does not have to subscribe to multiple mailing lists, just to one
forum.
Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux help" in
google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
Forums have the biggest advantage for someone new to mailing lists and
forums and to those who want less work finding what they want. Mailing
lists have the biggest advantage for those who want everything in one
interface so they don't need to relearn difference interfaces.
3:42 p.m.
Around 09:20pm on Friday, April 30, 2004 (UK time), Mikha ben Avraham scrawled:
Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux
help" in
google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
answers. When googling for the answer to a problem, I usually find it
in news groups or mailing list archives, sometimes on individual web
pages and rarely in forums.
Cheers
Steve
--
(o< www.stevesearle.com
//\ Powered by Fedora Core
V_/_ No MS products were used in the creation of this message
9:38pm up 55 days, 6:02, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.09, 0.13
4:01 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 21:42:12 PM +0100, Steve Searle
(steve(a)stevesearle.com) wrote:
Around 09:20pm on Friday, April 30, 2004 (UK time), Mikha ben Avraham
scrawled:
> Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux help" in
> google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
answers.
Precisely my point. It is easier and faster, for casual users, to
enter stuff once in a web form, but it is much more time consuming for
experts to use that channel.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
May your future be limited only by your dreams.
Christa McAuliffe
4:02 p.m.
From: "M. Fioretti" <m.fioretti(a)inwind.it>
Subject: Re: Taming the mailing lists?
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:01:48 +0200
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 21:42:12 PM +0100, Steve Searle
(steve(a)stevesearle.com) wrote:
> Around 09:20pm on Friday, April 30, 2004 (UK time), Mikha ben Avraham scrawled:
>
> > Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux help"
in
> > google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
>
> In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
> answers.
Precisely my point. It is easier and faster, for casual users, to
enter stuff once in a web form, but it is much more time consuming for
experts to use that channel.
I am sorry, but can this thread die? Although it is an issue that
many mailing list subscribers are concerned with I personally feel
that the fedora-list traffic is best spent discussing issues directly
related to the Fedora product itself, rather than its mailing list.
- Mike Hogsett
4:57 p.m.
M. Fioretti wrote:
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 21:42:12 PM +0100, Steve Searle
(steve(a)stevesearle.com) wrote:
>Around 09:20pm on Friday, April 30, 2004 (UK time), Mikha ben Avraham scrawled:
>
>
>
>>Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux help" in
>>google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
>>
>>
>In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
>answers.
>
>
Precisely my point. It is easier and faster, for casual users, to
enter stuff once in a web form, but it is much more time consuming for
experts to use that channel.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
Of course, the experts prefer to enter stuff into multiple web forms to
join multiple mailing lists, and then if you delve into the world of
"taming" mailing lists, then as some have suggested be done, we'll have
even MORE forms to fill out.
5:23 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 16:57:13 PM -0500, Mikha ben Avraham (mikhame(a)sbcglobal.net) wrote:
>
>Precisely my point. It is easier and faster, for casual users, to
>enter stuff once in a web form, but it is much more time consuming for
>experts to use that channel.
>
>Ciao,
> Marco Fioretti
>
>
Of course, the experts prefer to enter stuff into multiple web forms to
join multiple mailing lists,
You are comparing something done *once* per list with entering each
message, every time, every day in a different window?
Please be serious, or let's just drop this.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
5:40 p.m.
M. Fioretti wrote:
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 16:57:13 PM -0500, Mikha ben Avraham
(mikhame(a)sbcglobal.net) wrote:
>>Precisely my point. It is easier and faster, for casual users, to
>>enter stuff once in a web form, but it is much more time consuming for
>>experts to use that channel.
>>
>>Ciao,
>> Marco Fioretti
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Of course, the experts prefer to enter stuff into multiple web forms to
>join multiple mailing lists,
>
>
You are comparing something done *once* per list with entering each
message, every time, every day in a different window?
Please be serious, or let's just drop this.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
What are you speaking of then? Logging in or registering an account?
4:50 p.m.
Steve Searle wrote:
Around 09:20pm on Friday, April 30, 2004 (UK time), Mikha ben Avraham
scrawled:
>Furthermore, forums are found easier than mailing lists. "linux help" in
>google will bring up more forums than mailing list archives.
>
>
In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
answers. When googling for the answer to a problem, I usually find it
in news groups or mailing list archives, sometimes on individual web
pages and rarely in forums.
Cheers
Steve
A good reason for the people who know the answers and only use mailing
lists to use forums as well.
5:29 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 16:50:20 PM -0500, Mikha ben Avraham (mikhame(a)sbcglobal.net) wrote:
Steve Searle wrote:
>
>In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
>answers. When googling for the answer to a problem, I usually find it
>in news groups or mailing list archives, sometimes on individual web
>pages and rarely in forums.
>
I swear this is my last message in this thread. Said this:
A good reason for the people who know the answers and only use
mailing lists to use forums as well.
you have missed again the point, which is to save time. Communication
must be fast and effective. If the majority of people who know the
answers (ie have managed to become expert) also prefer mailing lists
it is quite likely that the two things are related.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
Non si vive se non il tempo che si ama. C. A. Helvetius
5:41 p.m.
M. Fioretti wrote:
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 16:50:20 PM -0500, Mikha ben Avraham
(mikhame(a)sbcglobal.net) wrote:
>Steve Searle wrote:
>
>
>>In my opinion, Forums tend to have lots of questions but far fewer
>>answers. When googling for the answer to a problem, I usually find it
>>in news groups or mailing list archives, sometimes on individual web
>>pages and rarely in forums.
>>
>>
>>
I swear this is my last message in this thread. Said this:
>A good reason for the people who know the answers and only use
>mailing lists to use forums as well.
>
>
you have missed again the point, which is to save time. Communication
must be fast and effective. If the majority of people who know the
answers (ie have managed to become expert) also prefer mailing lists
it is quite likely that the two things are related.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
I thought the point was to tame mailing lists?
2:10 p.m.
I dont know. I can try.
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:39:09 +0100, Chris Hewitt
<fedlist(a)manordat.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Mikha ben Avraham wrote:
> Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists.
Fine if you are not on a pay dial-up line.
Chris
--
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
Mark Haney
Network, Database and Systems Administration
DoctorDirectory.com Inc.
2:41 p.m.
Mailing lists have the advantage to be answered at any time even not forum
if people are not in...
and written things make people think about how to provide the information...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Haney" <mark.haney(a)doctordirectory.com>
To: "For users of Fedora Core releases" <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Taming the mailing lists?
I dont know. I can try.
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:39:09 +0100, Chris Hewitt
<fedlist(a)manordat.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Mikha ben Avraham wrote:
>
>> Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists.
>
> Fine if you are not on a pay dial-up line.
>
> Chris
>
>
--
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
Mark Haney
Network, Database and Systems Administration
DoctorDirectory.com Inc.
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
3:16 p.m.
It would appear that on Apr 30, Mikha ben Avraham did say:
Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists. Forums give the ability
to
separate different categories of problems and discussion.
The major advantage I see for a forum compared to a mailing list is that
a forum is more of a "browsing" medium, and mailing list just stuff
everything down your throat. I want to check what sort of software
problems people have, but to do so with a mailing list is intimidating
(when I didn't check my email for a few days and found over a thousand
emails, I certainly didn't read them all).
Right now, I go to fedoraforum.org for help, but it doesn't have nearly
the support base these mailing lists have. A combination of the mailing
list membership with a forum would be nervana and would solve what I
believe to be the "taming" problem.
I'm betting your not using a threaded mail reader... Or you haven't
configured your mail reader to use it <grin> When I first joined this
list I wasn't using pines threaded format And I could see what you mean
by "stuffing everything down your throat" Now I separate my lists with
filters, and use threading... much better. AND it uses MY choice in
interface. That is I use pine cause I like it!
And I suppose I could even filter on interesting keywords to further
divide up the volume into manageable folders if I wanted to.
But if your really keen on the browser interface, why not filter the
bulk of the list traffic out of your regular mail box. Then use a browser
to follow things in the archive instead... Personally I wouldn't like to
do that, but the archive is up to date. I just checked and your message
dated today is already there. So if you really want to browse for it.
you can.
--
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net>>
3:24 p.m.
Joe(theWordy)Philbrook wrote:
I'm betting your not using a threaded mail reader... Or you
haven't
configured your mail reader to use it <grin> When I first joined this
list I wasn't using pines threaded format And I could see what you mean
by "stuffing everything down your throat" Now I separate my lists with
filters, and use threading... much better. AND it uses MY choice in
interface. That is I use pine cause I like it!
And I suppose I could even filter on interesting keywords to further
divide up the volume into manageable folders if I wanted to.
But if your really keen on the browser interface, why not filter the
bulk of the list traffic out of your regular mail box. Then use a browser
to follow things in the archive instead... Personally I wouldn't like to
do that, but the archive is up to date. I just checked and your message
dated today is already there. So if you really want to browse for it.
you can.
I use thunderbird, use threaded view, and filter all To:
fedora-list(a)redhat.com to a seperate folder. I still find forums to be
better.
3:48 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2004 16:16:08 PM -0400, Joe(theWordy)Philbrook (jtwdyp(a)ttlc.net) wrote:
It would appear that on Apr 30, Mikha ben Avraham did say:
> Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists. Forums give the ability to
> separate different categories of problems and discussion.
>
> The major advantage I see for a forum compared to a mailing list is that
> a forum is more of a "browsing" medium, and mailing list just stuff
> everything down your throat.
[SNIP]
I'm betting your not using a threaded mail reader... Or you haven't
configured your mail reader to use it <grin> When I first joined this
list I wasn't using pines threaded format And I could see what you mean
by "stuffing everything down your throat" Now I separate my lists with
filters, and use threading... much better.
Exactly. A properly configured mail (or news) reader makes using many
forums much faster.
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
Don't you wish you had more energy... or less ambition?
3:22 p.m.
Mikha ben Avraham said:
Personally, I prefer forums to mailing lists.
OK. Many people (myself included) don't.
Forums give the ability to
seperate different categories of problems and discussion.
Different mailing lists? I prefer bigger categories, that way you don't
get so many off-topic posts because a person couldn't decide where to put
it.
The major advantage I see for a forum compared to a mailing list is
that
a forum is more of a "browsing" medium,
That's why the archives are on the web.
[snip]
Right now, I go to fedoraforum.org for help, but it doesn't have
nearly
the support base these mailing lists have.
See the first point.
A combination of the mailing
list membership with a forum would be nervana and would solve what I
believe to be the "taming" problem.
Won't happen because of people like me that won't use a forum. Given the
choice of a forum or nothing I generally use nothing.
--
William Hooper
7293
days inactive
7301
days old
56 comments
28 participants
participants (28)
-
- Edwin - -
Chadley Wilson -
Charles Curley -
Chris Hewitt -
Clifford Snow -
Elliot Lee -
Gene Heskett -
Henri Girard -
Jeff Lasman -
Jeff Vian -
Jim Cornette -
jludwig -
Joe(theWordy)Philbrook -
M. Fioretti -
Mark Haney -
Martijn Moret -
Martin Stone -
Matt Hansen -
Mike Hogsett -
Mikha ben Avraham -
ne... -
Neil Chr -
Phil Schaffner -
Rodolfo J. Paiz -
Steve Berry -
Steve Searle -
Tom Mitchell -
William Hooper