On Friday 23 December 2005 1:32 pm, Kam Leo wrote: >Anybody visit the Fedora Core home page lately? What doe you think >about the new layout? >Does anyone know where links for the lists, Fedora Forums, and bugzilla >went? > > Interesting - seems rather sparse... Maybe it's a work in progress?

> > The way this is being handled is kind of stealthy (clubmembers only) and IMHO clumsy (there is no need to break the old links).

It would be very informational and open if a note about the change was placed on the main page so that visitors and new users are not left in the dark.

Kam Leo wrote: [snip] > The exact details are still being discussed in the >> fedora-websites-list . > > The way this is being handled is kind of stealthy (clubmembers only) How is a publicly archived and open to all subscribers mailing list "clubmembers only"? -- William Hooper

Hi >If the links have been removed how does one get informed about the >list or membership? > How do you want to be informed?

> The public discussion is only available to >members of the list. > No its a public archive. Its listed in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate. Google knows about it.

> That in my opinion pretty much closes off public >access. > > Again its a open list. Anyone can subscribe and post there.

-- Rahul

Hi >Somewhere on the http://fedora.redhat.com home page should be placed a >notice of the transition to FedoraProject.org. (A link would be a nice >touch.) If visitors to the old site cannot find what they're searching >for they can go to the new site. No need to google. > > We havent made the decision yet. We are *still* discussing it. http://fedoraproject.org does not have all of the infrastructure necessary for a complete transition at this point and is maintained by volunteers. Again all of the discussion in the archives and is available in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites. The schedule is available from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Schedule The entire list of infrastructure details is available from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure. You can also help by signing up and doing things. >I may not have expressed myself very clearly. The main Fedora Core >home page has been and currently is http://fedora.redhat.com. Just do >a Google search for "Fedora Core". My comment about the change being >stealthy is that the site has been significantly altered. There is >nothing on the main page or in either "News" or "About" regarding the >change to the site. > The changes are work in progress. We havent decided on anything yet. The News page links to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate. It has the fedora-websites-list. Let me trace back the history of this change a bit. I initiated the discussion in fedora-docs list. See https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-October/msg00111.html on creating a new mailing list for interactions about the website which had previous been discussed in fedora-docs and fedora-marketing list and someone in private mails among web administrators of the websites to make it open and transparent to the community. The archives are available. It was also later announced on the fedora-marketing list https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-November/msg00... Fedora marketing list is where the discussion about a potential transition to fedoraproject.org happened the whole point of which is to enable more of the community to participate through the wiki among other things. > Only people who know about the change are those of >the fedora-website-list which is a back channel communications link, >much like this list. I agree, the archives are public, but it is not >highly visible. What query string would you use in Google to find this >particular discussion? > Try "Fedora websites"?. Its the first hit. >The change is clumsy because a simple notice >and link would have handled the mysterious loss of content. > > The work was done by volunteers. They might not have done a perfect job. You can file bug reports (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites) or post to the fedora-websites list instead of calling changes stealthy and club members only. I find that kind of language unnecessarily hostile and misleading. Look I care about doing things transparently as much as possible. I am working on several such things to enable it. For example coordinating with the fedoranews.org administrator. http://www.livejournal.com/users/rahulsundaram/1823.html (feeds from http://fedoraproject.org/people) to have a regular flow of news of all Fedora related information in a central place which In have proposed to feed into news.fedoraproject.org and which will automatically show up in the frontpage of http://fedoraproject.org. fedoranews.org site is being redesigned to make that happen. see http://fedoranews.org/cms for a preview of that. Such things dont happen in a day. We do a lot of work behind the scenes for the community at large to be kept informed. I spend several hours editing the wiki on a daily basis to make changes that provides information to the community. see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RecentChanges. I have worked on the release notes extensively and triage bugs when I can. I request developers all the time to post information to the lists and thats why I am answering mails on this list and fedora forums all through the night on a weekend even though my day job has nothing to do with Fedora. How about less hostility in return for that?. Fair deal? -- Rahul

Hi > Somewhere on the http://fedora.redhat.com home page should be placed a > notice of the transition to FedoraProject.org. (A link would be a nice > touch.) If visitors to the old site cannot find what they're searching > for they can go to the new site. No need to google. > > We havent made the decision yet.

[snip] >Somewhere on the http://fedora.redhat.com home page should be placed a >notice of the transition to FedoraProject.org. (A link would be a nice >touch.) If visitors to the old site cannot find what they're searching >for they can go to the new site. No need to google. >

http://fedoraproject.org does not have all of the infrastructure necessary for a complete transition at this point and is maintained by volunteers. Again all of the discussion in the archives and is available in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites. The schedule is available from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Schedule

I am interested in contributing to Fedora some how, the Webites/Schedule page seems sparse on tasks and details however. Please advise. -- As a boy I jumped through Windows, as a man I play with Penguins.

(As a side note, what ever happened to the reminder mails about all the lists? Once a month is a bit of overkill, but once a couple months might be good).

Yes, if one knew that was the place to look. Look at this from the perspective of a visitor/first time Fedora Core user. How do they get from http://fedora.redhat.com to https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/?

William Hooper wrote: >Kam Leo wrote: >[snip] > > >>Yes, if one knew that was the place to look. Look at this from the >>perspective of a visitor/first time Fedora Core user. How do they get from >>http://fedora.redhat.com to >>https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/? >> >> For what its worth we discussed this in the list and a note has been added to the frontpage. See http://fedora.redhat.com/

William Hooper wrote: > Kam Leo wrote: >>On 12/23/05, William Hooper <whooperhsd3(a)earthlink.net&gt; wrote: >>>Kam Leo wrote: >>>[snip] >>> >>>>The exact details are still being discussed in the >>>> >>>>>fedora-websites-list . >>>> >>>>The way this is being handled is kind of stealthy (clubmembers >>>> only) >>> >>>How is a publicly archived and open to all subscribers mailing >>> list "clubmembers only"? >>> >>> >>>-- >>>William Hooper >> >>If the links have been removed how does one get informed about the >>list or membership? > > All the Redhat (and Fedora) mailing lists are still listed in the > same place: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > The creation of the list was announced on the fedora-marketing > list: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-November >/msg00006.html Great. How many current and prospective Fedora fans does that reach?

Gene Heskett wrote: > On Tuesday 27 December 2005 19:18, John Summerfied wrote: > >William Hooper wrote: > >> Kam Leo wrote: > >>>On 12/23/05, William Hooper <whooperhsd3(a)earthlink.net&gt; wrote: > >>>>Kam Leo wrote: > >>>>[snip] > >>>> > >>>>>The exact details are still being discussed in the > >>>>> > >>>>>>fedora-websites-list . > >>>>> > >>>>>The way this is being handled is kind of stealthy (clubmembers > >>>>> only) > >>>> > >>>>How is a publicly archived and open to all subscribers mailing > >>>> list "clubmembers only"? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>William Hooper > >>> > >>>If the links have been removed how does one get informed about > >>> the list or membership? > >> > >> All the Redhat (and Fedora) mailing lists are still listed in > >> the same place: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/ > >> > >> The creation of the list was announced on the fedora-marketing > >> list: > >> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-Novem > >>ber /msg00006.html > > > >Great. How many current and prospective Fedora fans does that > > reach? > > An educated guess, based on 71 years of observing, would be maybe > 0.00003% of zip. Get real, if you want folks to know about > something, then by damn post it to the list thats got the > circulation, not to some list where the main point is to invent a > new buzzword_du_jour. Geez, the marketing numbskulls we have to put > up with, boggles the mind... If you two are going to troll, do it elsewhere.

We aren't out to create a list that every user on the planet is meant to sign up for and use. It, like most of the other Fedora lists, is primarily for relevant developer discussion. People who are motivated enough to provide feedback can find the list the same way as all of the other lists are found, and signing up for the list is not a big request. If it were, so many people wouldn't already to it. As far as notifying users of the changes, yes, we needed to do more, and we've taken further steps now. Some of the people who maintain the sites, such as myself, do watch for user feedback on this list and in other places. It isn't hard to reach us. As far as bashing the Marketing team, that is completely unwarranted. It is a small team of volunteers who are chasing developments to get things done. If you think you can make a positive contribution, you're welcome to join. If you think that the efforts of our team members are unsatisfactory, I'm sorry you feel that way, but being insulting and doing nothing isn't going to accomplish anything.

-- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64(a)n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/

Hi >Well, we did get a response, and a positive one at that. As for the >implied insult, I wasn't trying to be personal about it Patrick. My >aplogies if you took it that way. What I was pointing out was the >inconguity of publishing the info on a list with what, 50 subscribers? > >End of thread (I hope) > > So read the frontpage. http://fedora.redhat.com which has pointers if you really want to join. Rest of them dont care and thats fine. discussions happen in seperate mailing lists created for such purposes. No suprise there.