Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Many thanks, -T
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:50:57 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same configuration working. (The challenge is taking into account everything that became obsolete and was replaced during that time).
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 20:01 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same configuration working.
Likewise. I gave up upgrading long ago, it's one of those "in theory" things that often doesn't go according to plan. Long term installs over the top often end up with conflicts, and a mess of increasing things collecting over time.
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
I'd agree with that too, though it seems CentOS is moving themselves out of that position. CentOS 7 lasts 'til mid-2024, CentOS 8 lasts until the end of 2022, there won't be a CentOS9.
CentOS Stream is becoming a RHEL preview, somewhere between RHEL and Fedora. I can't find the quote now (it was on their own website), but they were recommending people don't use it as a long-term server solution.
Constantly planning for needing to upgrade your mail server, and when, for example, is not my idea of fun. More so for complicated databases.
Am 31.07.2022 um 03:34 schrieb Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org:
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 20:01 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same configuration working.
Likewise. I gave up upgrading long ago, it's one of those "in theory" things that often doesn't go according to plan. Long term installs over the top often end up with conflicts, and a mess of increasing things collecting over time.
It’s Fedora Server here. This is far less complex than, for example, Workstation, simply because of the non-existent graphical interface.
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
I'd agree with that too, though it seems CentOS is moving themselves out of that position. CentOS 7 lasts 'til mid-2024, CentOS 8 lasts until the end of 2022, there won't be a CentOS9.
There are many reasons to prefer Fedora Server, e.g. additional and needed functions by new versions of software (e.g. compare the functions of a standard software as postfix). Even an old version of Fedora Server has newer versions as RHEL oder CentOS.
And Fedora Server has been reasonable stable for a long time.
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On 31 Jul 2022, at 02:35, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 20:01 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same configuration working.
Likewise. I gave up upgrading long ago, it's one of those "in theory" things that often doesn't go according to plan. Long term installs over the top often end up with conflicts, and a mess of increasing things collecting over time.
My experience with upgrade is tha it works very well. All the issues I have seen I would also have seen on a new install. I use fedora server and fedora KDE on 6 machines ranging from Server to laptop to desktop and some vm.
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
Even rhel 9 seems old to me.
At work we are going to rhel 8 and that is ancient to me.
Barry
I'd agree with that too, though it seems CentOS is moving themselves out of that position. CentOS 7 lasts 'til mid-2024, CentOS 8 lasts until the end of 2022, there won't be a CentOS9.
CentOS Stream is becoming a RHEL preview, somewhere between RHEL and Fedora. I can't find the quote now (it was on their own website), but they were recommending people don't use it as a long-term server solution.
Constantly planning for needing to upgrade your mail server, and when, for example, is not my idea of fun. More so for complicated databases.
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On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 20:01:48 -0400 Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
Software.
RHEL provides only a small fraction of the packages available in Fedora. Even worse, RH disables features that Fedora has and RH aggressively removes the `-devel` packages. When I tried building software on CentOS, I had to patch and rebuild a bunch of Fedora packages, patch and rebuild some CentOS packages, and rebuild some more CentOS packages for packages that builds but doesn’t ship before I could even begin. I found this to be a waste of time and not sustainable.
As far as Ubuntu goes, I would probably choose Debian. But I am more comfortable with rpm than apt, and have yet to find a good guide on how to build my own `.deb` packages.
I also find it easier to manage the stream of small changes that come with Fedora instead of the flood of changes that come with a new RHEL release.
Jim
On 7/31/22 06:56, James Szinger wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 20:01:48 -0400 Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
Software.
RHEL provides only a small fraction of the packages available in Fedora. Even worse, RH disables features that Fedora has and RH aggressively removes the `-devel` packages. When I tried building software on CentOS, I had to patch and rebuild a bunch of Fedora packages, patch and rebuild some CentOS packages, and rebuild some more CentOS packages for packages that builds but doesn’t ship before I could even begin. I found this to be a waste of time and not sustainable.
As far as Ubuntu goes, I would probably choose Debian. But I am more comfortable with rpm than apt, and have yet to find a good guide on how to build my own `.deb` packages.
I also find it easier to manage the stream of small changes that come with Fedora instead of the flood of changes that come with a new RHEL release.
Jim
I used RHEL cones for years. They DROVE ME CRAZY. RHEL locked in older versions of code, bugs and all. Things never improved. And Red hat is very difficult to get to fix anything unless you put one of them on your payroll, which no individual or small business can do.
I upgraded to Fedroa and I still am tickled when I start it. And it has been sevarl years. EVERYTHING WORKS (well almost).
I set up Fedora (as a) server by first just installing Xfce from Live Xfce. Then I install whatever server software I need.
And if you want to pull a RHEL with Fedora, just don't upgrade it.
On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:34 AM ToddAndMargo via users < users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 7/31/22 06:56, James Szinger wrote:
I used RHEL cones for years. They DROVE ME CRAZY. RHEL locked in older versions of code, bugs and all. Things never improved. And Red hat is very difficult to get to fix anything unless you put one of them on your payroll, which no individual or small business can do.
I used RH at home when you purchased a CD-ROM, and at work from late 1990's for a couple decades. In my experience, RH were good about backporting bug fixes, but if you needed a newer version of some library you had to build it yourself, and often the library targeted newer toolchains, so you had to install a devtoolset to get current tools.
I upgraded to Fedroa and I still am tickled when I start it. And it has been sevarl years. EVERYTHING WORKS (well almost).
I use Fedora to check apps I developed for potential issues which can be changes in tools and libraries as well as libraries that have been dropped. I also use it for the mission-critical ESA and NASA apps used to prepare inputs for my apps to make sure my apps handle the constant stream of changes in those apps.
Most of my colleagues outside N. America use Ubuntu, but Fedora is popular in organizations that were using CentOS on their servers (and are now looking for an alternative to CentOS).
I set up Fedora (as a) server by first just
installing Xfce from Live Xfce. Then I install whatever server software I need.
And if you want to pull a RHEL with Fedora, just don't upgrade it.
Then you are missing security updates. In my circle of colleagues, many working for large enterprises, IT will not permit that.
On 8/1/22 04:38, George N. White III wrote:
Then you are missing security updates. In my circle of colleagues, many working for large enterprises, IT will not permit that.
As has been said, your operating system is boiler plate stable if it runs your applications properly.
RHEL's claim to fame is that it locks down the code, so update don't break things. And the lock down include a lot of security updates too. I have reported them and got ignored.
So, if you want stability of never having to worry about an update breaking things, don't update. You can do this with any operating system. If all depends on what your need are.
I do PCI (Payment Card Industry) consulting as well as a ton of other things. PCI required you run a "supported" operating system. This is to get security updates. It is a double edged sword. I have had customers tell me that M$'s updates have caused more damage to their businesses than all the viruses they ever caught.
So there is on one answer to this. It depends on your needs.
On 7/30/22 20:01, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:50:57 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same configuration working. (The challenge is taking into account everything that became obsolete and was replaced during that time).
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
CentOS-Stream has removed any utility of CentOS. Lifetime is ridiculously short and no version upgrade.
On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 5:44 PM Robert McBroom via users < users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 7/30/22 20:01, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:50:57 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
My approach would be to start from scratch on a new disk (or at least a new partition) and install anything needed to get the same
configuration
working. (The challenge is taking into account everything that became obsolete and was replaced during that time).
Although why anyone would want to use fedora for a long term server is a separate question :-). (CentOS or Ubuntu LTS comes to mind).
CentOS-Stream has removed any utility of CentOS. Lifetime is ridiculously short and no version upgrade.
Rolling releases don't have version upgrades. For my own mission-critical applications (which can run on headless servers), there has been a reduction in breaking changes across updates and also better portability across distros. For a while, new versions of GNU compilers (the software uses C, Fortran 95, and C++) had bugs, but I haven't encountered a compiler bug in several years.
Users do struggle with UI changes and missing drivers for legacy non-ipp printer, network, and graphics devices. Flatpaks have been helpful in allowing people to use older app versions on a recent distro where the new version isn't to their liking.
Debian unstable is a rolling release. https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/developers-practitioners/how-google-got... says: " In the future, we are planning to work even more closely with upstream Debian and contribute more of our internal patches to maintain the Debian package ecosystem."
Google does extensive testing but doesn't have to be concerned with support for legacy hardware.
On Sun, 2022-07-31 at 20:26 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
Debian unstable is a rolling release. https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/developers-practitioners/how-google-got... says: " In the future, we are planning to work even more closely with upstream Debian and contribute more of our internal patches to maintain the Debian package ecosystem."
Nice to read them articulate how ongoing major updates are a pain (it's not just us end-users who hate it). And amusing to read their internal Linux was called Goobuntu (if you're an Australian of a certain age, calling someone a goober was akin to calling them an social pariah and a fool).
Harking back to my pre-IBM-compatible days I used Amigas, which came pre-installed with their OS and was rarely ever updated. They lasted many years, many people would have bought new and better hardware long before considering trying to change the OS software.
Various system files got updated over time usually by simply replacing a library file, but sometimes an alternative thing was introduced and many things used that instead (e.g. the file-requesters for loading and saving your files could be the original basic one, or use an alternative fancier one). That avoided breakage, but also allowed improvements. But there weren't many OS updates, it wasn't really needed. It was all about the applications.
The dnf upgrade process only allows 2 versions max. I've don't 2 versions at a time, but did have it fail once?? So, either do a full backup or do single version upgrades. Was a long time ago that got error, and had a backup.
When I was still teaching, would always do an upgrade on one machine, an clean install on another machine to compare. Generally, the clean install would have some added programs that didn't exist in prior version, and would then manually add them.
Good Luck.
On 30 Jul 2022 at 16:50, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Date sent: Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:50:57 -0700 To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: 32-->36? Send reply to: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org From: ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Copies to: ToddAndMargo ToddAndMargo@zoho.com
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Many thanks, -T
--
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On 7/30/22 16:50, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
You need to go at most 2 at a time and you have to watch for all the things that changed across those releases. e.g. databases that require upgrade processes run.
On 30 Jul 2022 at 16:50, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Date sent: Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:50:57 -0700 To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: 32-->36? Send reply to: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org From: ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Copies to: ToddAndMargo ToddAndMargo@zoho.com
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Many thanks, -T
Just a little thing I like to do before doing an update or clean install on another system.
#!/usr/bin/bash rpm --qf "%{NAME}.%{ARCH}\n" -qa | sort | grep -v gpg-pubkey > installed_pkgs"$(date +%F)".txt
When setting up a new machine, a clean install doesn't have a number of packages that I've added over time, so run this once in a while to keep a list of packages.
If doing an upgrade it will try to install them so no real need. But if doing a clean install, and then running dnf with this file piped into an install option. It will flag many as already installed which is no issue, but may find a number that are no included in default install. May have to remove a few lines to get it to run cleanly.
Is also interesting to run command afterwards creating a new file, and comparing what was added to list..
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When you say, "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just stare at you blankly and say, "Hey, I got those with the system, for free." -- Linus Torvalds
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Am 31.07.2022 um 01:50 schrieb ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org:
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Generally I would prefer to upgrade one by one. Doing it that way you don’t miss a script that adapts configuration. It takes a lot of time, but - depending of the installation / configuration of the server - it’s usually less effort and less trouble than a new installation.
We have had very few problems with upgrades in recent releases. And when we did, it was less due to the upgrade and more due to problems with functionality caused by changes to one software or another.
Sometimes there are problems with dependency conflicts. Usually, then it is easiest to selectively uninstall the affected software and reinstall and reconfigure it at the end. This is still less time-consuming than a complete reinstallation. If you use (older) software modules, check if the version you are using is still included. And check, if an updated software needs explizit and separate data conversion. But that is not specific for an upgrade. You would have these problems also with a new installation.
After everything is done, it is useful to briefly check if there are any old leftovers (in the simplest case rpm -qa | grep f32/f33/… There are more advanced methods, check the upgrade documentation in Quick Docs)
In case of issues don’t hesitate to contact us.
Peter
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Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora docs team contributor Java developer and enthusiast
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 8:51 PM ToddAndMargo via users < users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
As others have mentioned, there are good reasons to do one or two revisions at a time. It could be useful to compare the list of installed packages with what F36 provides so you can plan for replacement of packages that are no longer available.
If the Fedora 32 server's system disk is near end-of-warranty, you might consider cloning the old disk onto a newer disk and doing upgrades on the new disk. Upgrades are disk intensive and can push an older disk into failure. A new disk is much cheaper than the cost of down time time it takes to deal with a system disk that dies during an update -- you end up waiting for finance to approve a replacement disk, restoring backups to the new disk, and starting the updates from scratch.
A lot depends on how your customer uses the system. If the system has a lot of 3rd party software installed you may want to consider whether application data can be dumped and restored on a newer version of the software. It is often better to remove obsolete software before starting upgrades and then installing the current version and importing the old database.
I have spent way too much of my time transferring large email and document collections from old systems to new systems where many of the files triggered AV detections. I have noticed that the higher the pay grade, the more malware detections (not sure if the higher ups are targeted or just less careful).
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 7:51 PM ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
If possible, I would clone the system (use a different host name and make sure client apps don't get started until/unless you want them to start) and do a test-run of the upgrade process as well as any installed applications. If all goes well you could then clone the test system back to production which may be less downtime for your client than an in-place upgrade.
Backup at every significant step. If you use a VM for the test-run you could use snapshots (allow for plenty of disk space for the snapshots!).
Did I mention backups?
Backups!
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:46:39 -0400 Go Canes wrote:
If you use a VM for the test-run you could use snapshots
I always install a new fedora on a VM then after I like it, rsync the VM to a disk partition, fix a few UUIDs and such in various config files, then boot to it using the grub "configfile" option. (Works with BIOS installs, probably more difficult with EFI).
I get to do the initial install and configure without taking the system down by using a VM.
This is reasonable. My suggestion would be
1. keep the original installation, create a snapshot of current configs and installed packages. 2. If possible, use a new server, or use a VM, to install F36. 3. Import the package and configs, fix everything that don't work 4. When most obvious problems are fixed, gradually move production to F36. (For example, night-time traffic go to F36, etc.) 5. After a while gradually move all production traffic to F36, keeping F32 intact (and update relevant databases with a script from F36) . If something breaks, immediately redirect traffic to F32. 6. When you are absolutely sure that everything's okay, move F36 there.
On 7/31/22 9:55 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:46:39 -0400 Go Canes wrote:
If you use a VM for the test-run you could use snapshots
I always install a new fedora on a VM then after I like it, rsync the VM to a disk partition, fix a few UUIDs and such in various config files, then boot to it using the grub "configfile" option. (Works with BIOS installs, probably more difficult with EFI).
I get to do the initial install and configure without taking the system down by using a VM. _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On 7/31/22 01:50, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Many thanks,
Done the same recently, one step each time: 32->33->34->35->36. But it was a desktop, a lot more complex than a server. In your case 32->34->36 is an option.
Regards.
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 16:50 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Since I've seen no-one suggest this: Do they have a spare PC?
Set up a new server with a new install, run in parallel until you're sure it's ready to take over. I did that the last time I replaced a server. Far less pain than trying dual-booting, virtual machines, etc.
F32 is quite a while back, new hardware might be a good thing, too.
On 7/30/22 16:50, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Hi All,
I have a customer who FINALLY agreed to have me upgrade his Fedora 32 server to 36.
Can I jump directly, or do I have to go one or two revisions at a time?
Many thanks, -T
Follow up:
I went from 32 to 34 to 36.
from 32 to 34 I had to remove a stary iptables (I am using netfilter).
Other than that, it went complete smooth!
And I did it all remotely over ssh!
ftp and samba and all perfectly behaving too.
Thank you all again for all the tips and help!
-T
now to calm the SELINUX errors!
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