10:22 p.m.
I could not find a DVD player as part of the FC3 package. Sorry if I have overlooked
an entry. Any recomendations on a DVD player?
Greg Ennis
5:31 p.m.
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 04:22, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
I could not find a DVD player as part of the FC3 package. Sorry if I
have
overlooked an entry. Any recomendations on a DVD player?
Greg Ennis
I like xine (xinehq.de). The site has a link to
http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/ for RPMs that work well.
11:28 p.m.
Eric Hartwell wrote:
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 04:22, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
>I could not find a DVD player as part of the FC3 package. Sorry if I have
>overlooked an entry. Any recomendations on a DVD player?
>
>Greg Ennis
>
>
I like xine (xinehq.de). The site has a link to
http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/xine/ for RPMs that work well.
DCMA = Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which was started to stop all
the "digital piracy" that got started with napster and kazaa etc. From
what I have read though, they are now more concerned with making money
rather than stopping piracy and have violated as many of our rights as
customers as they have protected rights of artists.
I've read some places and heard myths that, at least for US citizens
such as myself, that a lot of the stuff we download is "illegal" because
someone isn't making money off of us. A good example is with mp3 coders.
Now downloading mp3 songs is a completely separate issue, but in the US,
someone has a copyright on the mp3 technology, so that is why
RedHat/Fedora can't ship with mp3 support, or they would have to pay big
$ in either legal penatlies or royalties. When I downloaded one of the
many mp3 encoders to rip my CD collection, I remember seeing a warning
on the website saying it "might" be illegal for US citizens to download
the file because it is copyrighted here. Now I understand how Red Hat
can't legally distribute mp3 stuff, but why would I be required to buy a
"Made in the USA" mp3 encoder rather than getting a foreign made one
when I can buy a lot of other stuff from other countries online without
getting in trouble?
And how is a DVD player program illegal? I have not heard of this yet
and am curious how that works??? I know about region codes &
restrictions, and that bypassing them is "illegal," but what is the deal
with mplayer and xine. I use them both and don't see how I am breaking
any laws...
10:34 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Andrew Konosky wrote:
And how is a DVD player program illegal? I have not heard of this yet
and am curious how that works??? I know about region codes &
restrictions, and that bypassing them is "illegal," but what is the deal
with mplayer and xine. I use them both and don't see how I am breaking
any laws...
The technology to play DVDs is licensed from the DVD consortium. To make
a player for DVDs, you are supposed to pay them a license fee. What you
get for your money is a key that can be revoked at any time is it happens
to "fall into the wrong hands". (This is why the current DVD CSS
libraries just crack the code in realtime instead of generating a list of
predefined, and revokable) keys.
--
Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25.
11:31 p.m.
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 1:28 am, Andrew Konosky wrote:
And how is a DVD player program illegal?
Read the two first paragraphs here:
http://tinyurl.com/5l73z
1:23 p.m.
On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 23:28 -0600, Andrew Konosky wrote:
I've read some places and heard myths that, at least for US
citizens
such as myself, that a lot of the stuff we download is "illegal"
because
someone isn't making money off of us. A good example is with mp3
coders.
Now downloading mp3 songs is a completely separate issue, but in the
US,
someone has a copyright on the mp3 technology, so that is why
RedHat/Fedora can't ship with mp3 support, or they would have to pay
big
$ in either legal penatlies or royalties. When I downloaded one of
the
many mp3 encoders to rip my CD collection, I remember seeing a
warning
on the website saying it "might" be illegal for US citizens to
download
the file because it is copyrighted here.
The mp3 technology (as I see discussed later in the thread) is protected
by patent, not copyright. See http://www.mp3licensing.com/
The mp3 files (or DVD movies, etc.) are (or at least may be) protected
by copyright, but this does not legally prevent the one who has bought a
CD from making archival copies, or playing the material from different
media. If content now distributed in mp3 files were instead encoded
with an open (and arguably higher quality) process such as Ogg Vorbis,
all of us open-source users would be a whole lot happier and safer from
both copyright and patent issues.
Phil
Phil
10:26 p.m.
RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
Tom
--
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- Peter Wenzl
10:57 p.m.
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 12:38 am, Scott wrote:
I'm curious....
Who do the commercial distros pay to include such software?
Well, I'm not aware of any major distro right now shipping a legal dvd-player.
The only and first one was TurboLinux a few months ago shipping CyberLink
PowerDVD.
Soon after that, HP started selling their Linux laptop (which comes with SUSE)
and it had LinDVD on it. Note: the SUSE distro does not come with LinDVD.
This was mainly an HP & Intervideo arrengement (it seems).
Right now, you can't buy LinDVD or PowerDVD. They're just doing business with
OEM's.
So..asking your question, these distros may pay the company that produces the
dvd player...and these dvd companies may pay the technology owners...
HTH
Jorge
11:42 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 12:44:47AM -0400, Jorge F?bregas wrote:
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 12:26 am, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
> RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
> mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
...so you can violate it just yourself.
Depends on what country you live in.
--
Ed Wilts, RHCE
Mounds View, MN, USA
mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org
Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program
11:07 p.m.
Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
Tom
Thanks to everyone for their responses. Looks like the xine website is down right
now, and mplayer was not updated for FC3. I think I'll wait bit before I proceed.
What is DMCA anyway?
Greg
10:29 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
> RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
> mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
>
> Tom
>
>
Thanks to everyone for their responses. Looks like the xine website is down right
now, and mplayer was not updated for FC3. I think I'll wait bit before I proceed.
What is DMCA anyway?
"Digital Millenium Copyright Act".
It is the law that says that any electronic copy protection, no matter how
stupid or ineffective or restrictive, cannot be removed by the user under
penalty of law. (The "Matress Tag" law of the 21st century.)
Anything electronic you "buy" now is not really bought. It is rented from
the owner under terms that only benefit the owner. They can discontinue
your "ownership" of the product at any given time and they owe you nothing
in return. And you can't do a damned thing about it.
There have been a lot of cries to "just change the lawmakers". The last
election showed just how much chance their is of that in the US.
"You keep using the word 'Freedom'. I don't think it means what you think
it means."
--
Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25.
11:44 a.m.
On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 08:29:05PM -0800, alan wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
> What is DMCA anyway?
"Digital Millenium Copyright Act".
It is the law that says that any electronic copy protection, no matter how
^
United States
This act may not be enforcable outside of the United States.
--
Ed Wilts, RHCE
Mounds View, MN, USA
mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org
Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program
11:26 p.m.
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 1:07 am, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
What is DMCA anyway?
Hi,
Read this page (part of a review on TurboLinux PowerDVD). It will give you a
nice explanation on all these issues.
http://tinyurl.com/5l73z
Jorge
11:34 p.m.
On 11/29/2004 09:07:02 PM, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
> RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
> mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
>
> Tom
>
>
Thanks to everyone for their responses. Looks like the xine website
is down right now, and mplayer was not updated for FC3. I think I'll
wait bit before I proceed.
I use ogle
It's in the rpm.livna.org repositories.
While it is true that ogle *just* plays DVD's - it does it quite
nicely.
For other media types I use totem - and will use totem for DVD's once
dvd playback in the gstreamer backend is fixed.
10:42 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Michael A. Peters wrote:
On 11/29/2004 09:07:02 PM, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
> Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
>> RedHat cannot include a DVD player without violating the DMCA, get
>> mplayer or xine from somewhere else.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
> Thanks to everyone for their responses. Looks like the xine website
> is down right now, and mplayer was not updated for FC3. I think I'll
> wait bit before I proceed.
I use ogle
It's in the rpm.livna.org repositories.
While it is true that ogle *just* plays DVD's - it does it quite
nicely.
For other media types I use totem - and will use totem for DVD's once
dvd playback in the gstreamer backend is fixed.
Livna has decided not to support x86_64 anymore. Freshrpms.net has many
of the same apps, so I tend to stick with them. (I just *had* to get a 64
bit laptop...) No ogle though.
--
Q: Why do programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas?
A: Because OCT 31 == DEC 25.
12:50 p.m.
On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 23:07 -0600, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
What is DMCA anyway?
The Digital Millenium Copyright Act which gives $$$ corporations the
right to create and support almost certainly illegal cartels by charging
europeans more than americans more than asians for the same DVD and
restricting playback to commercial platforms.
Tom
--
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8:58 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 19:50 +0100, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 23:07 -0600, Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
> What is DMCA anyway?
The Digital Millenium Copyright Act which gives $$$ corporations the
right to create and support almost certainly illegal cartels by charging
europeans more than americans more than asians for the same DVD and
restricting playback to commercial platforms.
Tom
Not to start a war, but AFAIK, DMCA has only been used to stop a
company from distributing a software that would copy DVD's (that was
it's intended purpose).
The reason Red Hat won't include a DVD player is the same as the reason
they don't ship an MP3 player, i.e. the formats are not open source.
This is the stated purpose of Fedora, to put together a Distro of
completely Open source products.
Scott
10:44 p.m.
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 10:58, Scott Talbot wrote:
Not to start a war, but AFAIK, DMCA has only been used to
stop a
company from distributing a software that would copy DVD's (that was
it's intended purpose).
Wasn't there a Swede named Johanson or similar who got dudded over this? His
software had legal uses but could also be used illegally.
The reason Red Hat won't include a DVD player is the same
as the
reason they don't ship an MP3 player, i.e. the formats are not open source.
This is the stated purpose of Fedora, to put together a Distro of
completely Open source products.
I b'lieve he problem with mp3 is patents. Altogether a different animal.
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
tourist pics: http://environmental.disaster.cds.merseine.nu/
9:22 a.m.
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 12:44 +0800, John Summerfield wrote:
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 10:58, Scott Talbot wrote:
> Not to start a war, but AFAIK, DMCA has only been used to stop a
> company from distributing a software that would copy DVD's (that was
> it's intended purpose).
Wasn't there a Swede named Johanson or similar who got dudded over this? His
software had legal uses but could also be used illegally.
Yes "DVD Jon" was eventually cleared of wrong doing under Swedish law,
DVD XCOPY which used his libraries, has been removed from sale, and the
company was bankrupted with lawsuits from the MPAA.
> The reason Red Hat won't include a DVD player is the
same as the
> reason they don't ship an MP3 player, i.e. the formats are not open source.
> This is the stated purpose of Fedora, to put together a Distro of
> completely Open source products.
I b'lieve he problem with mp3 is patents. Altogether a different animal.
Well I don't see much difference, If an item has patents, it is
presumably not free. Even though the patent holders have never even
tried to start legal action on mp3 codecs anywhere, and have said that
they have no intention of going after anyone, they also have not
released them under GPL or any other "free" license.
The fedora home page does have this to say on the subject though:
"The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to
build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free
software."
Since mp3 is not free, redhat won't use it. Presumably this would also
apply to code that is copyrighted, but not patented too.
Scott
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
tourist pics: http://environmental.disaster.cds.merseine.nu/
9:28 a.m.
Scott Talbot wrote:
The fedora home page does have this to say on the subject though:
"The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to
build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free
software."
Since mp3 is not free, redhat won't use it. Presumably this would also
apply to code that is copyrighted, but not patented too.
The vast majority of the code in Fedora is copyrighted. The GPL relies on
copyright law as its basis.
You're right about the patents though.
Paul.
4 p.m.
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 23:22, Scott Talbot wrote:
Well I don't see much difference, If an item has patents,
it is
presumably not free. Even though the patent holders have never even
tried to start legal action on mp3 codecs anywhere, and have said that
they have no intention of going after anyone, they also have not
released them under GPL or any other "free" license.
The fedora home page does have this to say on the subject though:
"The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to
build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free
software."
Since mp3 is not free, redhat won't use it. Presumably this would also
apply to code that is copyrighted, but not patented too.
Disclaimer: IANAL.
There are three matters.
1. Trademarks.
Trademarks have to be enforced or they're lost. Australian companies have
been making ugg boots for 30 years or so to my memory. Now some American
company is claiming it as a trademark. I predict they'll lose if a court
adjudicates, but of course the "infringers" may not have enough money to
spend on it.
2. Patents.
Patents require registration and renewal in all jurisdictions, and have a
limited lifespan. Patents can be enforced discriminatorily: IBM can choose to
not enforce patents against some people (say OSS developers) and go after
others (say Bill). I would trust IBM to do just that, whereas I expect Bill
will sue all.
Note that most countries do not recognise software patents.
3. Copyright.
In most jurisdictions, an author owns copyright unless his wok explicity
denies this ("this work is in the public domain"). The major exception is
commissioned work: if I hire you to paint me a picture of Bill receiving a
pie in the face, I own the copyright unless our contract says otherwise.
In some jurisdictions (eg .de), copyright cannot be assigned. A copyright
owner can impose restrictions on the use of his work: he permits its use
under a licence.
In public domain works, the author disclaims all rights of ownership. As I
understand "public domain," I can take a public domain work and claim it
(perhaps with minor modifications) as my own.
A complete work can have many copyright holders. Think of a performance by the
Boston Pops Orchestra. The composer holds copyright on the score. Then
arranger has copyright over the arrangement, Importantly, each performer
(annd conductor) has copyright over her contribution. And if the performance
is recorded, there are more copyrights there too.
It is copyright law that underpins all OSS licences.
Patents tend to lie in hiding (eg Amazon's one-click patent) and can be
destroyed by prior art. OSS developers cannot keep up (indeed corporates
can't), and for the moment I prefer to ignore them until they pop up. OTOH I
do not recommend "fingers in ears."
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
tourist pics: http://environmental.disaster.cds.merseine.nu/
8:25 p.m.
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 07:22 -0800, Scott Talbot wrote:
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 12:44 +0800, John Summerfield wrote:
> On Wednesday 01 December 2004 10:58, Scott Talbot wrote:
> > Not to start a war, but AFAIK, DMCA has only been used to stop a
> > company from distributing a software that would copy DVD's (that was
> > it's intended purpose).
>
> Wasn't there a Swede named Johanson or similar who got dudded over this? His
> software had legal uses but could also be used illegally.
>
Yes "DVD Jon" was eventually cleared of wrong doing under Swedish law,
DVD XCOPY which used his libraries, has been removed from sale, and the
company was bankrupted with lawsuits from the MPAA.
> > The reason Red Hat won't include a DVD player is the same as the
> > reason they don't ship an MP3 player, i.e. the formats are not open
source.
> > This is the stated purpose of Fedora, to put together a Distro of
> > completely Open source products.
>
> I b'lieve he problem with mp3 is patents. Altogether a different animal.
>
Well I don't see much difference, If an item has patents, it is
presumably not free. Even though the patent holders have never even
tried to start legal action on mp3 codecs anywhere, and have said that
they have no intention of going after anyone, they also have not
released them under GPL or any other "free" license.
The fedora home page does have this to say on the subject though:
"The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to
build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free
software."
Since mp3 is not free, redhat won't use it. Presumably this would also
apply to code that is copyrighted, but not patented too.
NO. Everything written is copyrighted by the author by default.
Rights can be granted by licensing (such as the GPL) but copyright
cannot be transferred AFAIK
IANAL
8:42 p.m.
On Mit, 2004-12-01 at 20:25 -0600, Jeff Vian wrote:
NO. Everything written is copyrighted by the author by default.
Correct.
Rights can be granted by licensing (such as the GPL) but copyright
cannot be transferred AFAIK
Copyright can be transferred in some countries.
Tom (IANAL)
--
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Growing old is mandatory... growing up is optional.
10:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora amazes yet again
Hello All,
I got an iPod mini for my birthday. After installing iTunes software
on Windows and loading/playing some songs, I rebooted into FC4 and was
surprised to find an iPod icon on my gnome desktop. FC4 seems to treat
the iPod as just another USB hard drive. From the icon I was able to
drill down through several layers of folders to files that seem to
contain songs in Apple's m4a format although, of course, the iPod's
database structure wasn't quite as transparent. But in Windows it takes
real labor to see any structure at all!
I was expecting to have to do a lot to get this far towards using my
iPod with FC4 rather than with Windows. But people "out there" seem to
have already been working on this. Sometimes the scope of Linux as a
collaborative project is amazing.
My question: is there an iPod software interface like iTunes that works
well on FC4, or at least a package that can play (or convert) m4a files?
Jerry
10:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora amazes yet again
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 08:35 -0800, Gerhard Magnus wrote:
Hello All,
I got an iPod mini for my birthday. After installing iTunes software
on Windows and loading/playing some songs, I rebooted into FC4 and was
surprised to find an iPod icon on my gnome desktop. FC4 seems to treat
the iPod as just another USB hard drive. From the icon I was able to
drill down through several layers of folders to files that seem to
contain songs in Apple's m4a format although, of course, the iPod's
database structure wasn't quite as transparent. But in Windows it takes
real labor to see any structure at all!
I was expecting to have to do a lot to get this far towards using my
iPod with FC4 rather than with Windows. But people "out there" seem to
have already been working on this. Sometimes the scope of Linux as a
collaborative project is amazing.
My question: is there an iPod software interface like iTunes that works
well on FC4, or at least a package that can play (or convert) m4a files?
----
depending upon the repositories you are using, the following will work.
iPod
yum install gtkpod
m4a
yum install xmms-aac
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.
5:13 p.m.
New subject: Fedora amazes yet again
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 09:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 08:35 -0800, Gerhard Magnus wrote:
> My question: is there an iPod software interface like iTunes
that works
> well on FC4, or at least a package that can play (or convert) m4a files?
----
depending upon the repositories you are using, the following will work.
iPod
yum install gtkpod
m4a
yum install xmms-aac
I've been using the default configuration of references to yum
repositories set up by FC4. None of these repositories contain gtkpod.
But I've found plenty of different (or at least variously named) rpms
for this package at sourceforge, freshmeat, and other websites.
This leads to a question with general implications. So far, "yum
update" has worked without a hitch on my system. But the volume of
postings that report problems with yum has me concerned about fiddling
with something that for me at least isn't broken. If I start adding
other repositories, like sourceforge and freshmeat, to my yum
configuration do I risk interfering with the normal updating of packages
from the Fedora repositories, e.g. by inadvertantly updating to beta
versions coming from elsewhere?
In short... is it better to update manually for certain packages or to
expand the yum configuration and then use yum update for everything?
Thanks for the help!
Jerry
5:40 p.m.
New subject: Fedora amazes yet again
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 15:13 -0800, Gerhard Magnus wrote:
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 09:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 08:35 -0800, Gerhard Magnus wrote:
> > My question: is there an iPod software interface like iTunes that works
> > well on FC4, or at least a package that can play (or convert) m4a files?
> ----
> depending upon the repositories you are using, the following will work.
>
> iPod
> yum install gtkpod
>
> m4a
> yum install xmms-aac
I've been using the default configuration of references to yum
repositories set up by FC4. None of these repositories contain gtkpod.
But I've found plenty of different (or at least variously named) rpms
for this package at sourceforge, freshmeat, and other websites.
This leads to a question with general implications. So far, "yum
update" has worked without a hitch on my system. But the volume of
postings that report problems with yum has me concerned about fiddling
with something that for me at least isn't broken. If I start adding
other repositories, like sourceforge and freshmeat, to my yum
configuration do I risk interfering with the normal updating of packages
from the Fedora repositories, e.g. by inadvertantly updating to beta
versions coming from elsewhere?
In short... is it better to update manually for certain packages or to
expand the yum configuration and then use yum update for everything?
Thanks for the help!
----
# rpm -q gtkpod xmms-aac
gtkpod-0.94.0-1.1.fc3.rf
xmms-aac-2.0-4.1.fc3.rf
This tells me that they came from .rf (rpmforge)
I'll make it easy for you...
Fedora 4
rpm -ivh
http://ftp.belnet.be/packages/dries.ulyssis.org/fedora/fc4/i386/RPMS.drie...
Fedora 3 (dag)
rpm -ivh http://apt.sw.be/fedora/3/en/i386/RPMS.dag/rpmforge-
release-0.2-2.1.fc3.rf.i386.rpm
Fedora 3 (dries)
rpm -ivh
http://ftp.belnet.be/packages/dries.ulyssis.org/fedora/fc3/i386/RPMS.drie...
Then the other commands...
yum install gtkpod xmms-aac
I don't know about sourceforge/freshmeat - I don't think that they offer
yum repositories. You will definitely find it easier to run yum installs
with dependency handling than download rpm's and installing them. This
is my suggestion on the way to handle things.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.
8:08 p.m.
New subject: KEdit question
Hello All,
Does anybody who uses the text editor KEdit know how to get rid of
those annoying periods that appear on the screen each time one hits the
space bar? Or is this a bug?
Jerry
8:15 p.m.
New subject: KEdit question
On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 18:08 -0800, Gerhard Magnus wrote:
Hello All,
Does anybody who uses the text editor KEdit know how to get rid of
those annoying periods that appear on the screen each time one hits the
space bar? Or is this a bug?
----
Settings -> Configure Kate -> Edit -> Tabulators -> uncheck 'show
tabs'
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.
12:21 p.m.
New subject: Creative Webcam Instant
Does anyone know how I can get the "Creative Webcam Instant" to work
with FC4?
11:26 p.m.
Gregory P. Ennis wrote:
I could not find a DVD player as part of the FC3 package. Sorry if I
have overlooked an entry. Any recomendations on a DVD player?
Greg Ennis
I recommend Xine, Mplayer, and Ogle, in that order. Xine and Mplayer
are fantastic multimedia players while ogle just plays DVDs.
You can get them all for FC3 from freshrpms.net via yum or apt.
--Kenny
4742
days inactive
5287
days old
32 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Alan -
Andrew Konosky -
Craig White -
Ed Wilts -
Eric Hartwell -
Gerhard Magnus -
Gregory P. Ennis -
Jeff Vian -
John Summerfield -
Jorge Fábregas -
Kenny Gow -
Michael A. Peters -
Oldman -
Paul Howarth -
Phil Schaffner -
Scott -
Thomas Zehetbauer