I have an old machine from 2008 with very old integrated graphics (GeForce 6150SE nForce 430). Up to and including F39, I was able to do a Live Workstation install simply by using the nomodeset boot option. With F40 that no longer works - it fails to come up in graphical. I ended up doing a netinstall, but it came up in text mode instead of graphical, and suggested VNC, which I was able to use to do a graphical install (necessary since I wanted to preserve /home, requiring custom partitioning). After installation, it turns out that by replacing gdm with another display manager (I used lxdm), I could even use GNOME, though screen locking, which requires gdm, doesn't work - not a big deal.
So a couple of questions. Is it possible to use VNC with a Live install? If so, can one avoid having to bring up graphical mode on the machine until after the install (since it won't work for me)? If one's intent is to go straight to the installation and skip simply running live, is there something like a boot option to allow this? I guess what I'm asking is whether it's possible to do something like a headless Live install.
Andre Robatino composed on 2024-04-27 02:49 (UTC):
I have an old machine from 2008 with very old integrated graphics (GeForce 6150SE nForce 430). Up to and including F39, I was able to do a Live Workstation install simply by using the nomodeset boot option. With F40 that no longer works - it fails to come up in graphical. I ended up doing a netinstall, but it came up in text mode instead of graphical, and suggested VNC, which I was able to use to do a graphical install (necessary since I wanted to preserve /home, requiring custom partitioning). After installation, it turns out that by replacing gdm with another display manager (I used lxdm), I could even use GNOME, though screen locking, which requires gdm, doesn't work - not a big deal.
# inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname System: Host: mcp61 Kernel: 6.6.23-1-longterm arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 13.2.1 clocksource: tsc avail: acpi_pm parameters: root=LABEL=<filter> ipv6.disable=1 net.ifnames=0 noresume consoleblank=0 preempt=full mitigations=off Desktop: KDE Plasma v: 5.27.10 tk: Qt v: 5.15.12 info: frameworks v: 5.115.0 wm: kwin_x11 dm: 1: KDM 2: XDM Distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20240403 Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 304.xx status: legacy (EOL~2017-09-xx) last: release: 304.137 kernel: 4.13 xorg: 1.19 arch: Curie process: 90-130nm built: 2003-2013 ports: active: VGA-1 empty: none bus-ID: 00:0d.0 chip-ID: 10de:03d0 class-ID: 0300 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: X: loaded: modesetting dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau display-ID: :0 screens: 1 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1680x1050 s-dpi: 108 s-size: 395x246mm (15.55x9.69") s-diag: 465mm (18.32") Monitor-1: VGA-1 model: Dell P2213 serial: <filter> built: 2012 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 gamma: 1.2 size: 473x296mm (18.62x11.65") diag: 558mm (22") ratio: 16:10 modes: max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400 API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia nouveau platforms: device: 0 egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau device: 1 drv: swrast gbm: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau surfaceless: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau x11: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau inactive: wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 2.1 vendor: mesa v: 24.0.3 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: NV4C device-ID: 10de:03d0 memory: 115.2 MiB unified: no # I've never tried Fedora on my old beast. It's functional in Debian 12 as well as openSUSE TW and Leap, but if you diligently search the web, you're likely to find confirmation that the 6150SE was likely the most troublesome and/or lowest value GeForce NVidia ever put to market. If you wish to keep that PC useful, I suggest finding a better GPU to install, even if that means it must be PCI rather than PCIe. I have a similar aged P4D with a passively cooled GeForce 8400 PCI that does a respectable job for something so old and inexpensive, and better than my 6150SE.
I have 2 desktops, each running Fedora, the one in question is a backup that I normally just log into with ssh and do updates, and would only use normally if the main machine dies. I'll probably be buying a new machine in a year or two and this one will go into storage, all of its hardware is old and I doubt it's worth upgrading major parts of the hardware at this point.
Andre Robatino composed on 2024-04-27 03:56 (UTC):
I have 2 desktops, each running Fedora, the one in question is a backup that I normally just log into with ssh and do updates, and would only use normally if the main machine dies. I'll probably be buying a new machine in a year or two and this one will go into storage, all of its hardware is old and I doubt it's worth upgrading major parts of the hardware at this point.
My suggestion was for a trivial investment of $0-$25US for an old used GPU that may be collecting cobwebs in a dead PC or on a shelf but works much better than a 6150SE. If another GeForce, it would be completely plug 'N play. Even if an AMD it could nevertheless be pure PNP.
OTOH, why install afresh rather than upgrade from F39 to F40 in the first place? I love how well upgrades go, and have no love for all the changes required of a fresh install to accommodate my preferences.
On 27/04/2024 04:28, Felix Miata wrote:
Andre Robatino composed on 2024-04-27 02:49 (UTC):
I have an old machine from 2008 with very old integrated graphics (GeForce 6150SE nForce 430). Up to and including F39, I was able to do a Live Workstation install simply by using the nomodeset boot option. With F40 that no longer works - it fails to come up in graphical. I ended up doing a netinstall, but it came up in text mode instead of graphical, and suggested VNC, which I was able to use to do a graphical install (necessary since I wanted to preserve /home, requiring custom partitioning). After installation, it turns out that by replacing gdm with another display manager (I used lxdm), I could even use GNOME, though screen locking, which requires gdm, doesn't work - not a big deal.
# inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname System: Host: mcp61 Kernel: 6.6.23-1-longterm arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 13.2.1 clocksource: tsc avail: acpi_pm parameters: root=LABEL=<filter> ipv6.disable=1 net.ifnames=0 noresume consoleblank=0 preempt=full mitigations=off Desktop: KDE Plasma v: 5.27.10 tk: Qt v: 5.15.12 info: frameworks v: 5.115.0 wm: kwin_x11 dm: 1: KDM 2: XDM Distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20240403 Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 304.xx status: legacy (EOL~2017-09-xx) last: release: 304.137 kernel: 4.13 xorg: 1.19 arch: Curie process: 90-130nm built: 2003-2013 ports: active: VGA-1 empty: none bus-ID: 00:0d.0 chip-ID: 10de:03d0 class-ID: 0300 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: X: loaded: modesetting dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau display-ID: :0 screens: 1 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1680x1050 s-dpi: 108 s-size: 395x246mm (15.55x9.69") s-diag: 465mm (18.32") Monitor-1: VGA-1 model: Dell P2213 serial: <filter> built: 2012 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 gamma: 1.2 size: 473x296mm (18.62x11.65") diag: 558mm (22") ratio: 16:10 modes: max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400 API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia nouveau platforms: device: 0 egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau device: 1 drv: swrast gbm: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau surfaceless: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau x11: egl: 1.4 drv: nouveau inactive: wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 2.1 vendor: mesa v: 24.0.3 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: NV4C device-ID: 10de:03d0 memory: 115.2 MiB unified: no # I've never tried Fedora on my old beast. It's functional in Debian 12 as well as openSUSE TW and Leap, but if you diligently search the web, you're likely to find confirmation that the 6150SE was likely the most troublesome and/or lowest value GeForce NVidia ever put to market. If you wish to keep that PC useful, I suggest finding a better GPU to install, even if that means it must be PCI rather than PCIe. I have a similar aged P4D with a passively cooled GeForce 8400 PCI that does a respectable job for something so old and inexpensive, and better than my 6150SE.
I would like to follow this up, but in relation to my two old boxes running F39 with the low-end nvidia GT710 cards.
The single-boot box is now running acceptably with the nouveau driver.
The dual-boot box doesn't boot straight into graphics mode, pausing while waiting to exit the plymouth screen and hanging after failing to start abrtd.service.
ctrl-alt-F2 allows login, and plasmastart-wayland gives a 800x600 plasma screen and starts wifi. I haven't yet found a bootline that does better than this. Mostly the system just freezes.
I had installed the updated rpmfusion 340xx packages, without useful results, before trying the updated 470xx. There are still references to a 340xx config in the Xorg log.
I hadn't used inxi before. Maybe posting the results will reveal something...
{{{ 2024041130 BST Single-boot
#inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname
System: Host: HPFed Kernel: 6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 2.40-14.fc39 clocksource: hpet avail: acpi_pm parameters: BOOT_IMAGE=(hd0,msdos1)/vmlinuz-6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora-root ro rd.driver.blacklist=nvidia modprobe.blacklist=nvidia nouveau-drm.modeset=1 rd.lvm.lv=fedora/swap rd.lvm.lv=fedora/root rhgb quiet Desktop: KDE Plasma v: 5.27.11 tk: Qt v: 5.15.12 info: frameworks v: 5.115.0 wm: kwin_x11 vt: 2 dm: SDDM Distro: Fedora Linux 39 (Thirty Nine) Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA GK208B [GeForce GT 710] vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 470.xx+ status: legacy-active (EOL~2024-09-xx) arch: Fermi 2 code: GF119/GK208 process: TSMC 28nm built: 2010-2016 pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 8 ports: active: HDMI-A-1,VGA-1 empty: DVI-D-1 bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:128b class-ID: 0300 temp: 45.0 C Device-2: Conexant Systems (Rockwell) Geniatech T230 DVB-T2 TV Stick driver: dvb_usb_dvbsky type: USB rev: 2.0 speed: 480 Mb/s lanes: 1 mode: 2.0 bus-ID: 1-2:2 chip-ID: 0572:c688 class-ID: 0000 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.20.14 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.6 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: X: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau display-ID: :0 screens: 1 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 3048x1050 s-dpi: 96 s-size: 804x277mm (31.65x10.91") s-diag: 850mm (33.48") Monitor-1: HDMI-A-1 mapped: HDMI-1 pos: right model: Sony TV built: 2020 res: 1368x768 hz: 60 dpi: 49 gamma: 1.2 size: 708x398mm (27.87x15.67") diag: 1836mm (72.3") ratio: 16:9 modes: max: 1360x768 min: 640x480 Monitor-2: VGA-1 pos: primary,left model: Dell 2009W serial: <filter> built: 2009 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 99 gamma: 1.2 size: 433x271mm (17.05x10.67") diag: 511mm (20.1") ratio: 16:10 modes: max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400 API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia nouveau platforms: device: 0 drv: nouveau device: 1 drv: swrast gbm: drv: nouveau surfaceless: drv: nouveau x11: drv: nouveau inactive: wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 4.3 vendor: mesa v: 23.3.6 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: NV106 device-ID: 10de:128b memory: 986.3 MiB unified: no API: Vulkan v: 1.3.275 layers: 1 device: 0 type: cpu name: llvmpipe (LLVM 17.0.6 128 bits) driver: N/A device-ID: 10005:0000 surfaces: xcb,xlib ================
2024041140 BST Dual-boot with Windows 10
#inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname
System: Host: FedWin4c1 Kernel: 6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 2.40-14.fc39 clocksource: tsc avail: hpet,acpi_pm parameters: BOOT_IMAGE=(hd2,gpt2)/vmlinuz-6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora_localhost--live-root ro rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau resume=/dev/mapper/fedora_localhost--live-swap rd.lvm.lv=fedora_localhost-live/root rd.lvm.lv=fedora_localhost-live/swap rhgb quiet nomodeset Desktop: KDE Plasma v: 5.27.11 tk: Qt v: 5.15.12 info: frameworks v: 5.115.0 wm: kwin_wayland with: krunner vt: 2 dm: SDDM Distro: Fedora Linux 39 (Thirty Nine) Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA GK208B [GeForce GT 710] vendor: ASUSTeK GT710-SL-1GD5 driver: nvidia v: 470.239.06 alternate: nouveau,nvidia_drm non-free: series: 470.xx+ status: legacy-active (EOL~2024-09-xx) arch: Fermi 2 code: GF119/GK208 process: TSMC 28nm built: 2010-2016 pcie: gen: 2 speed: 5 GT/s lanes: 8 bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:128b class-ID: 0300 Display: wayland server: X.org v: 1.20.14 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.6 compositor: kwin_wayland driver: X: loaded: N/A alternate: nvidia gpu: nvidia display-ID: 0 Monitor-1: Unknown-1 res: 800x600 size: N/A modes: N/A API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia platforms: device: 0 drv: nvidia device: 2 drv: swrast gbm: drv: kms_swrast surfaceless: drv: swrast wayland: drv: swrast x11: drv: swrast inactive: device-1 API: OpenGL v: 4.6.0 compat-v: 4.5 vendor: mesa v: 23.3.6 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: llvmpipe (LLVM 17.0.6 256 bits) device-ID: ffffffff:ffffffff memory: 15.21 GiB unified: yes display-ID: :0.0 API: Vulkan v: 1.3.275 layers: 2 device: 0 type: discrete-gpu name: NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 driver: N/A device-ID: 10de:128b surfaces: xcb,xlib,wayland device: 1 type: cpu name: llvmpipe (LLVM 17.0.6 256 bits) driver: N/A device-ID: 10005:0000 surfaces: xcb,xlib,wayland
}}}
John P
John Pilkington composed on 2024-04-27 12:54 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
...
System: Host: mcp61 Kernel: 6.6.23-1-longterm arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 13.2.1 clocksource: tsc avail: acpi_pm parameters: root=LABEL=<filter> ipv6.disable=1 net.ifnames=0 noresume consoleblank=0 preempt=full mitigations=off
... Notice absence of X graphics parameters (rhgb,quiet,nouveau,nvidia,drm,video,etc) on the kernel cmdline.
Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] vendor: Micro-Star MSI driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 304.xx status: legacy (EOL~2017-09-xx) last: release: 304.137 kernel: 4.13 xorg: 1.19 arch: Curie process: 90-130nm built: 2003-2013 ports: active: VGA-1 empty: none bus-ID: 00:0d.0 chip-ID: 10de:03d0 class-ID: 0300 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: X: loaded: modesetting dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau display-ID: :0 screens: 1
Loaded X driver: modesetting, the upstream default for all AMD, Intel and NVidia GPUs.
Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1680x1050 s-dpi: 108 s-size: 395x246mm (15.55x9.69") s-diag: 465mm (18.32") Monitor-1: VGA-1 model: Dell P2213 serial: <filter> built: 2012 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 gamma: 1.2 size: 473x296mm (18.62x11.65") diag: 558mm (22") ratio: 16:10 modes: max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400
...
The dual-boot box doesn't boot straight into graphics mode, pausing while waiting to exit the plymouth screen and hanging after failing to start abrtd.service.
ctrl-alt-F2 allows login, and plasmastart-wayland gives a 800x600 plasma screen and starts wifi. I haven't yet found a bootline that does better than this. Mostly the system just freezes.
I had installed the updated rpmfusion 340xx packages, without useful results, before trying the updated 470xx. There are still references to a 340xx config in the Xorg log.
#inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname
System: Host: FedWin4c1 Kernel: 6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 2.40-14.fc39 clocksource: tsc avail: hpet,acpi_pm parameters: BOOT_IMAGE=(hd2,gpt2)/vmlinuz-6.8.7-200.fc39.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora_localhost--live-root ro rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau
... Absent complete, competent installation of proprietary NVidia drivers, blacklisting of nouveau kernel module completely blocks X competence.
Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA GK208B [GeForce GT 710] vendor: ASUSTeK GT710-SL-1GD5 driver: nvidia v: 470.239.06 alternate: nouveau,nvidia_drm non-free: series: 470.xx+ status: legacy-active (EOL~2024-09-xx) arch: Fermi 2 code: GF119/GK208 process: TSMC 28nm built: 2010-2016 pcie: gen: 2 speed: 5 GT/s lanes: 8 bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:128b class-ID: 0300 Display: wayland server: X.org v: 1.20.14 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.6 compositor: kwin_wayland driver: X: loaded: N/A
No X driver loaded (neither nvidia nor nouveau), no competence from X.
alternate: nvidia
gpu: nvidia display-ID: 0Monitor-1: Unknown-1 res: 800x600
FOSS graphics setup can't be mixed with proprietary NVidia. One or the other to the exclusion of the other is the only way that can work competently. All of NVidia driver installation's changes must be 100% purged in order to enable FOSS to do its job. That's never been a problem here, as I've only ever installed FOSS drivers on my own hardware, including more than 5 NVidias running F39 and/or F40.
# inxi -GSaz --zl --hostname System: Host: p5bse Kernel: 6.7.11-200.fc39.x86_64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 2.40-14.fc39 clocksource: tsc avail: hpet,acpi_pm parameters: ro root=LABEL=<filter> ipv6.disable=1 net.ifnames=0 selinux=0 plymouth.enable=0 consoleblank=0 mitigations=off Desktop: TDE (Trinity) v: R14.1.1 tk: Qt v: 3.5.0 wm: Twin v: 3.0 with: kicker vt: 7 dm: 1: TDM 2: XDM Distro: Fedora Linux 40 (Forty) Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA GF119 [NVS 310] vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 390.xx+ status: legacy (EOL~2022-11-22) last: release: 390.157 kernel: 6.0 xorg: 1.21 arch: Fermi code: GF1xx process: 40/28nm built: 2010-2016 pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 16 ports: active: DP-1,DP-2 empty: none bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:107d class-ID: 0300 temp: 50.0 C Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.20.14 compositor: Twin v: 3.0 driver: X: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau display-ID: :0 screens: 1 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 2560x2490 s-dpi: 120 s-size: 541x527mm (21.30x20.75") s-diag: 755mm (29.73") Monitor-1: DP-1 pos: primary,bottom model: Acer K272HUL serial: <filter> built: 2018 res: 2560x1440 hz: 60 dpi: 109 gamma: 1.2 size: 598x336mm (23.54x13.23") diag: 686mm (27") ratio: 16:9 modes: max: 2560x1440 min: 720x400 Monitor-2: DP-2 pos: top model: Dell P2213 serial: <filter> built: 2012 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 gamma: 1.2 size: 473x296mm (18.62x11.65") diag: 558mm (22") ratio: 16:10 modes: max: 1680x1050 min: 720x400 API: EGL v: 1.5 hw: drv: nvidia nouveau platforms: device: 0 drv: nouveau device: 1 drv: swrast gbm: drv: nouveau surfaceless: drv: nouveau x11: drv: nouveau inactive: wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 4.3 vendor: mesa v: 24.0.4 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: NVD9 device-ID: 10de:107d memory: 474.6 MiB unified: no # Lots of nouveau working as expected, and displays both running in native mode.
I found a solution. When booting the live image, I went into the Troubleshooting menu and looked at the boot options for starting in basic graphics mode. It had not only "nomodeset" but also "vga=791". By booting with both of those, not just "nomodeset", I can boot the live image into graphical mode. Also, after installation, using the same options I was able to go back to gdm as the DM and everything works properly.
I found that liveinst DOES have a --vnc option, but I couldn't get it to work, either after booting the live image with option "3", or booting into graphical, opening a terminal, logging in as root and running "liveinst --vnc" from there. Either way it fails with a traceback (I got different tracebacks each time I tried.) I don't know why the option is there if it doesn't actually work, would be nice if it did.
The Linux video mode numbers are at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VESA_BIOS_Extensions#Linux_video_mode_numbers . Since the best resolution of the old CRT I have connected to the machine is 1280x1024, I tried "vga=792", "vga=794" and "vga=795" and each of those work. When in the 1024x768 modes (791, 792) I see pincushioning which I also saw with just "nomodeset" (which used 1024x768 automatically). In either 1280x1024 mode I don't, so I settled on "vga=795" (1280x1024, 24-bit). Strangely, checking the color depth with the command "xdpyinfo | grep -B3 depths" and looking at the first number after "depths" says that it's always in 24-bit, whether the mode I chose was 16- or 24-bit.
"liveinst --vnc" not working was filed as a bug 13 years ago and closed at EOL, I reopened it.
-
Andre Robatino -
Felix Miata -
John Pilkington