12:22 a.m.
Hi
I heard there is a need to set specific agenda to do this better. So
here is my ideas.
* If you speak a language not represented well in Fedora, Introduce
yourself and get involved.
* If you are running a Fedora i18n website. Introduce yourself
* If you speak the language where a Fedora i18n website, already exists,
contact the web administrators, ask them to sign up in this list and
introduce themselves.
Getting everyone running the several different Fedora related community
websites in the same page is the primary goal at this point. We are
looking for ideas on how to coordinate efficiently with the various
community websites. I would like to hear your suggestions and opinions
on this.
Things you can do:
* There is a need for the Fedora related content - website,
documentation, announcements etc to be translated and made available in
as much as languages as possible to reach the widest amount of audience.
* You can also be a Fedora Ambassador for your country or region to
represent or organize Fedora related events, see
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Ambassadors for details.
regards
Rahul
6:23 a.m.
Hi,
Since this list is not listed in
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/
and fedoraproject.org doesn't support localised web browsers
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=170892
people finding this list is, I believe, slim.
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list may be more
appropriate.
I believe what we really need to focus now is i18nize a way to
participate in fedora and let fedora's message reach everyone in this
world. To achieve this, we need ambassadors who can be contacted by
local community and set up i18ned news.fedoraproject.org. (I believe
news.fedoraproject.org really needs to be build with i18n in mind.)
English guide of joining fedora is already very confusing, i18nizing
this will be hard. We need to make this part of information modularized
and separate from each project. I believe this also helps English
speaking people find out joining information more easily as well.
Setting up information of fedora information for local community should
be handled by local community web site. There are materials in
fedoraproject.org usefull for local community, but not all of them are
necessary. Local people know where informations are, and they are much
better at building local web sites.
-Yoshihior
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
I heard there is a need to set specific agenda to do this better. So
here is my ideas.
* If you speak a language not represented well in Fedora, Introduce
yourself and get involved.
* If you are running a Fedora i18n website. Introduce yourself
* If you speak the language where a Fedora i18n website, already exists,
contact the web administrators, ask them to sign up in this list and
introduce themselves.
Getting everyone running the several different Fedora related community
websites in the same page is the primary goal at this point. We are
looking for ideas on how to coordinate efficiently with the various
community websites. I would like to hear your suggestions and opinions
on this.
Things you can do:
* There is a need for the Fedora related content - website,
documentation, announcements etc to be translated and made available in
as much as languages as possible to reach the widest amount of audience.
* You can also be a Fedora Ambassador for your country or region to
represent or organize Fedora related events, see
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Ambassadors for details.
regards
Rahul
9:31 a.m.
Yoshihiro Totaka wrote:
Hi,
Since this list is not listed in
http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/
It is now. :-)
and fedoraproject.org doesn't support localised web browsers
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=170892
I don't see how
this is specifically related to this matter.
people finding this list is, I believe, slim.
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list may be more
appropriate.
This list has a different scope, and serves a slightly different role
in
i18n. It is more appropriate for coordinating international website
development.
I believe what we really need to focus now is i18nize a way to
participate in fedora and let fedora's message reach everyone in this
world. To achieve this, we need ambassadors who can be contacted by
local community and set up i18ned news.fedoraproject.org. (I believe
news.fedoraproject.org really needs to be build with i18n in mind.)
English guide of joining fedora is already very confusing, i18nizing
this will be hard. We need to make this part of information
modularized and separate from each project. I believe this also helps
English speaking people find out joining information more easily as well.
While
i18n can be summarized as a single goal across many projects,
these are smaller projects that must be tackled individually. While we
build an international community of Ambassadors, we also need to provide
consistent material and a uniform message through community websites.
That is one of the primary goals in this list. As we move forward,
these many important aspects of i18n will be dealt with, but we can't
get hung up on each one due to the desire to work on the others.
Setting up information of fedora information for local community
should be handled by local community web site. There are materials in
fedoraproject.org usefull for local community, but not all of them are
necessary. Local people know where informations are, and they are much
better at building local web sites.
-Yoshihior
We should only compartmentalize as needed. We need to keep our focus on
providing everything we can through formal websites, relying on local
websites to provide only the local information that the formal sites
cannot. We must work with the community to present a united front,
bringing a consistent message and appearance to the best of our
abilities. Avoiding duplication and confusion are important, and
scattering information about needlessly can create problems. That is
the point here: coordination and focus.
--
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com
www.n-man.com
--
1:33 p.m.
Patrick Barnes wrote:
Yoshihiro Totaka wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Since this list is not listed in
>http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/
It is now. :-)
Thanx.
>and fedoraproject.org doesn't support localised web browsers
>https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=170892
I don't see how this is specifically related to this matter.
Since the list was listed only in
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate
and I believe front page is the page links to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate
If someone can not access the front page, then s/he probably will not be
able find this list.
>people finding this list is, I believe, slim.
>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list may be more
>appropriate.
This list has a different scope, and serves a slightly different role in
i18n. It is more appropriate for coordinating international website
development.
>I believe what we really need to focus now is i18nize a way to
>participate in fedora and let fedora's message reach everyone in this
>world. To achieve this, we need ambassadors who can be contacted by
>local community and set up i18ned news.fedoraproject.org. (I believe
>news.fedoraproject.org really needs to be build with i18n in mind.)
>English guide of joining fedora is already very confusing, i18nizing
>this will be hard. We need to make this part of information
>modularized and separate from each project. I believe this also helps
>English speaking people find out joining information more easily as well.
While i18n can be summarized as a single goal across many projects,
these are smaller projects that must be tackled individually. While we
build an international community of Ambassadors, we also need to provide
consistent material and a uniform message through community websites.
That is one of the primary goals in this list. As we move forward,
these many important aspects of i18n will be dealt with, but we can't
get hung up on each one due to the desire to work on the others.
Yes, I agree with you that consistent message is very important.
However we probably need to share the perception that i18n resource is
unfortunately limited. We will have FC5T1 very soon, but I have to
wonder how many languages will have proper release notes.
We also have documentation project creating very high quality documents
such as SELinux FAQ, RPM guide etc etc. Since Fedora embraces many
poorly documented breeding edge technologies such as SELinux and Xen,
many other distributions' Linux users are relying on Fedora's
documentation. We need to focus our translator's resources on these
quality documents.
Being said that, what i18n can help fedora project as whole at this
level is to keep local talents well informed and help locals involved
in projects. Involvement of locals will ultimately result in i18n of the
project.
However fedora's way for seeking people to participate has actually been
very confusing. Since fedora is a community project and we are looking
for community participation, keep community well informed and helping
them to involved is one of the key area fedora needs to focus on. Each
project writing a guide how to get involved and how we can help on wiki
or announcing in the list is not really effective. I believe
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted
could be separate web site or expanded. Each fedora project could have
"human resource manager" to write and update "how to get involved",
what sort of things they are working on, and what kind of talents or
tests they are looking for on the page or site.
(This could be part of news.fedoraproject.org as well, since this way
news and each project will be connected more strongly.)
>Setting up information of fedora information for local community
>should be handled by local community web site. There are materials in
>fedoraproject.org usefull for local community, but not all of them are
>necessary. Local people know where informations are, and they are much
>better at building local web sites.
>
>-Yoshihior
>
We should only compartmentalize as needed. We need to keep our focus on
providing everything we can through formal websites, relying on local
websites to provide only the local information that the formal sites
cannot. We must work with the community to present a united front,
bringing a consistent message and appearance to the best of our
abilities. Avoiding duplication and confusion are important, and
scattering information about needlessly can create problems. That is
the point here: coordination and focus.
Yes, I agree that coordination and focus is really required here. If
i18n of the formal site can be done, I believe that is wonderful thing.
If fedoraproject.org could be translated automatically by google, I
think having i18n of formal web site is the right idea. However reality
is not like that yet, and we do not have many resources to i18n. Keeping
web site translation up-to-date really requires huge resource. We really
need to focus our i18n resource here. Could-be-outdated,
partly-translated formal web site is not what I want. I am willing to
help build formal web site, but I don't think we have enough resource.
To help fedora ambassadors, I believe we could focus our i18n effort on
3 areas. (i.e., Fedora Doc translation, news, and helpwanted.)
Afterall, what could fedora ambassadors do with broken formal web site?
At least, currect local community site is not broken.
-Yoshihiro
1:48 p.m.
Hi
Since Fedora embraces many poorly documented breeding edge
technologies such as SELinux and Xen, many other distributions' Linux
users are relying on Fedora's documentation. We need to focus our
translator's resources on these quality documents.
Xen, I might agree with you. SELinux is neither bleeding edge nor poorly
documented now.
regards
Rahul
9:34 p.m.
Hi
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
> Since Fedora embraces many poorly documented breeding edge
> technologies such as SELinux and Xen, many other distributions' Linux
> users are relying on Fedora's documentation. We need to focus our
> translator's resources on these quality documents.
Xen, I might agree with you. SELinux is neither bleeding edge nor poorly
documented now.
Yes, FC3 SELinux is now well documented. FC4's SELinux is not really
different from FC3. However with FC5, MCS and MLS stuffs might be
implemented. It seems FC5 SELinux will have reference-policy instead of
targeted-policy.
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-selinux-list/2005-November/msg0011...)
Existing documents won't be able to cope with FC5 or FC6 SELinux. People
will be looking Fedora for documentation again.
Fedora is on breeding edge and fedora's documentation really helps
people adopt new technologies. Technology might be mature when Fedora
implement the technology, but it often lacks documentation. As long as
Fedora is the distribution which introduce new technologies to mass,
fedora documentation's importance will never go away.
-Yoshihiro
6:05 a.m.
On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 12:34 +0900, Yoshihiro Totaka wrote:
Hi
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
>
>> Since Fedora embraces many poorly documented breeding edge
>> technologies such as SELinux and Xen, many other distributions' Linux
>> users are relying on Fedora's documentation. We need to focus our
>> translator's resources on these quality documents.
Sidenote: We don't get much feedback from users on documents, beyond a
very small number of bug reports, and a few private e-mails. I
personally don't have a clear picture of how the material is being used,
or how useful it is, because data points are too few. The only
generalisations I'd make are that the feedback items that I've seen are
typically from people with some level of Linux experience, and a fair
proportion seem to work in institutions (academia, research, military),
but that probably partly reflects the types of people most likely to
give feedback.
--
Stuart Ellis
stuart(a)elsn.org
Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA
6:25 a.m.
2005/11/19, Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org>:
Sidenote: We don't get much feedback from users on documents,
beyond a
very small number of bug reports, and a few private e-mails. I
personally don't have a clear picture of how the material is being used,
or how useful it is, because data points are too few. The only
generalisations I'd make are that the feedback items that I've seen are
typically from people with some level of Linux experience, and a fair
proportion seem to work in institutions (academia, research, military),
but that probably partly reflects the types of people most likely to
give feedback.
When I'm translating the document I do see a lot of places that need
to be fixed or modified, but after I have translated them I'm tired of
go back and create a patch, because there are more in the translated
work. I think I need some push, :p
Talking about users, readers, "users don't read." and they are more
interested in finishing their works insteaded of commit bugs. Part of
the reason that I do translations is because I want to be more
familiar with the documents. If I just "read" them, I can easily
ignore any thing important, and I won't do carefully reviews or
spellchecks at all. In fact I'm not a good student :)
I think there should be another group called re-viewers or so. When I
have posted my translation, I have to require (or force) my best
friend Storm Lee to do the reviews. I don't expect to receive any
review idea from the others. Readers may not have spare time to do
reviews or don't want to bother to commit bugs, who knows.
--
bbbush ^_^
7:57 a.m.
On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 20:25 +0800, Yuan Yijun wrote:
When I'm translating the document I do see a lot of places that
need
to be fixed or modified, but after I have translated them I'm tired of
go back and create a patch, because there are more in the translated
work. I think I need some push, :p
For both docs and Wiki pages, I'm actually happy with a one line "this
looks wrong", and suggested text is a bonus. Bugzilla and patches are
developer tools, and IMO they are not a perfect fit for docs and web
sites as they require too much of the reader/user.
Talking about users, readers, "users don't read." and
they are more
interested in finishing their works insteaded of commit bugs. Part of
the reason that I do translations is because I want to be more
familiar with the documents. If I just "read" them, I can easily
ignore any thing important, and I won't do carefully reviews or
spellchecks at all. In fact I'm not a good student :)
I write for a similar reason :) ...to learn how something works.
I think there should be another group called re-viewers or so. When
I
have posted my translation, I have to require (or force) my best
friend Storm Lee to do the reviews. I don't expect to receive any
review idea from the others. Readers may not have spare time to do
reviews or don't want to bother to commit bugs, who knows.
This probably ought to be discussed further on the docs or translation
lists - please do post your ideas. More reviewing would definitely be
good.
--
Stuart Ellis
stuart(a)elsn.org
Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA
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8 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Patrick W. Barnes -
Rahul Sundaram -
Stuart Ellis -
Yoshihiro Totaka -
Yuan Yijun