5:07 p.m.
hi,
I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser start page
start.fedoraproject.org.
following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so free, tracking
your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing mail and passwords from
privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a bug or must-have feature for maps?).
IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora repos do not include
software with non-free licenses but links to a non free search engine company the same
time...
any ideas?
why not point to a more free alternative search engine like duckduckgo.com?
TIA, Meine
__________________
meine
linux fedora 15 gnome 3 & fedora 16 lxde
5:54 p.m.
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:07:09AM +0100, trialero wrote:
hi,
I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser start page
start.fedoraproject.org.
following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so free, tracking
your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing mail and passwords from
privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a bug or must-have feature for maps?).
IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora repos do not include
software with non-free licenses but links to a non free search engine company the same
time...
any ideas?
why not point to a more free alternative search engine like duckduckgo.com?
The Fedora Board recently discussed duckduckgo. We found that duckduckgo is
not more free (in terms of free software) than google.
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that
duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current
open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could
decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o
(which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
-Toshio
12:25 a.m.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:07:09AM +0100, trialero wrote:
> hi,
>
> I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser
start page start.fedoraproject.org.
>
> following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so
free, tracking your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing
mail and passwords from privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a
bug or must-have feature for maps?).
>
> IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora
repos do not include software with non-free licenses but links to a non
free search engine company the same time...
>
> any ideas?
>
> why not point to a more free alternative search engine like
duckduckgo.com?
>
The Fedora Board recently discussed duckduckgo. We found that duckduckgo
is
not more free (in terms of free software) than google.
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that
duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current
open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could
decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o
(which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
-Toshio
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As for the website team view: Most of as prefer to get rid of
start.fedoraproject.org entirely
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
--
-Elad Alfassa.
3:35 a.m.
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data
that
duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current
open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could
decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o
(which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
Things that I've already started in april[1].
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are.
But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add a
discrete box like:
"Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new
feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install
process!"
Like that we
1) break things
2) ask people that don't like this change to contribute
3) move forward
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2011-April/018501.html
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
4:17 a.m.
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we
are.
But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add a
discrete box like:
"Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new
feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install
Dont know much but once I came accross this :
http://search.yacy.net/
"YaCy is a free search engine that anyone can use to build a search
portal for their intranet or to help search the public internet. When
contributing to the world-wide peer network, the scale of YaCy is
limited only by the number of users in the world and can index
billions of web pages. It is fully decentralized, all users of the
search engine network are equal, the network does not store user
search requests and it is not possible for anyone to censor the
content of the shared index. We want to achieve freedom of information
through a free, distributed web search which is powered by the world's
users. "
--
Digvijay Patankar
Senior Research Fellow,
Dept. of Civil Engineering,
Indian Institute of Science,
Bangalore - 560012
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
5:06 a.m.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Kévin Raymond <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org>wrote:
> It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the
data that
> duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no
current
> open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could
> decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o
> (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
>
Things that I've already started in april[1].
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are.
I know where we are.
The current fp.o page is really cluttered, and it has no clear purpose, as
detailed in the wiki page.
If we want to drop the page, we need a permission from the board to do it,
but we were all to lazy to bring this up to the board.
If we want to use it as a what'snew page (similar to what Firefox does
after an update) that will explain what's new in the release, we would need
a design (it needs to be more attractive than a wiki page and well
designed), we need someone to update it every release, we need a permission
from the board, and we need to speak with the Firefox package maintainers
to make sure users will only see this page when they first open firefox
after a new installation of Fedora or an upgrade, and never again until
they upgrade to the next Fedora.
But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add
a
discrete box like:
"Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new
feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install
process!"
Like that we
1) break things
2) ask people that don't like this change to contribute
3) move forward
[1]
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2011-April/018501.html
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
--
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
--
-Elad Alfassa.
10:48 a.m.
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 01:06:10PM +0200, Elad Alfassa wrote:
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Kévin Raymond <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
> It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that
> duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no
current
> open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could
> decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o
> (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
>
Things that I've already started in april[1].
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are.
I know where we are.
The current fp.o page is really cluttered, and it has no clear purpose, as
detailed in the wiki page.
If we want to drop the page, we need a permission from the board to do it, but
we were all to lazy to bring this up to the board.
If we want to use it as a what'snew page (similar to what Firefox does after an
update) that will explain what's new in the release, we would need a design (it
needs to be more attractive than a wiki page and well designed), we need
someone to update it every release, we need a permission from the board, and we
need to speak with the Firefox package maintainers to make sure users will only
see this page when they first open firefox after a new installation of Fedora
or an upgrade, and never again until they upgrade to the next Fedora.
The present Board will most likely Okay any redesign you'd like to do.
They'd probably be okay with dropping it as well if you know where you want
the default start page for firefox to be instead.
-Toshio
11:33 a.m.
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Hash: SHA1
On 02/02/2012 08:48 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
The present Board will most likely Okay any redesign you'd like
to
do. They'd probably be okay with dropping it as well if you know
where you want the default start page for firefox to be instead.
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping
of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
Just for some history:
Years ago Docs noticed that we owned the default local index.html that
came up in the browser (/usr/share/docs/HTML/index.html). We started
loading it with information useful to users - links to release-notes,
sub-projects, forums, help, etc. - and getting it translated.
Along the way, others realized we could have an actual web page to hit
instead of using a local page, which made it easier to make it useful
to users on the fly - reload the page instead of updating the package.
This came in with discussing if there was some value to Fedora in
having an arrangement with a search engine provider to be the
chosen-one for our default search box. There being none, we went with
the popular choice.
I mention that so it can help in understanding how we got to what we
have today, in searching for where to go next.
- - Karsten
- --
name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Architect
team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership
uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org
http://TheOpenSourceWay.org
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11:43 a.m.
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping
of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go
to where they want to go, and that is very likely not
start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read
planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox
provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your
most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them,
since that's what you really want to do.
~m
12:01 p.m.
2012/2/2 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade
wrote:
> I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping
> of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go
to where they want to go, and that is very likely not
start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read
planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox
provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your
most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them,
since that's what you really want to do.
~m
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I'd say we keep Firefox's default about:home, we don't change default
homepage in other browsers, so we shouldn't change it on Firefox as well
(stick to upstream policy).
The dashboard idea sounds good though, especially because more GNOME
applications are going to have these soon (
https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointThree/Features/Blank%20slate%20helps%20y...).
We could install this Firefox extension you are talking about by default
with Fedora if it's stable enough (and 100% free with no legal issues). If
you link me to the specific extension, I'll try to get it packaged (if it
isn't already), which is the first thing we need to make it default.
--
-Elad Alfassa.
12:04 p.m.
2012/2/2 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade
wrote:
> I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping
> of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go
to where they want to go, and that is very likely not
start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read
planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox
provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your
most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them,
since that's what you really want to do.
~m
--
websites mailing list
websites(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
I agree with Mairin, the most folks would want to go to their own website
after the launch the browser.
The only way I could think of having start.fedoraproject.org being of any
use it to link the user to the corresponding Release Notes [1] (as an
example). This way the user would have a quick glance of what's new and
what has changed and they go on with their daily business. Another reason
for going to that page is the "CommonBugs" page which is important,
especially after an upgrade.
Unless we something like I mention above is done, my thought recently has
been to remove it or maybe just replace start.fp.o with fedoraproject.org
Sijis
[1] - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_16_Alpha_release_notes
7:11 a.m.
@Elad Alfassa
Firefox's about:home is a local page.
Mo's idea is also 100% local.
file is indeed local -->
/usr/lib/firefox/omni.ja/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutHome.xhtml
but here Google is the search engine...
@Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
The rationale is that when people open up a web
browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and
that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
question is then what people want to do after starting their browser end how we can
facilitate this. maybe open a page with all the categorized bookmarks in [+]/[-]
expandable/collapsable lists?
//meine
7:13 a.m.
2012/2/5 trialero <trialero(a)gmx.com>
@Elad Alfassa
> Firefox's about:home is a local page.
> Mo's idea is also 100% local.
file is indeed local -->
/usr/lib/firefox/omni.ja/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutHome.xhtml
but here Google is the search engine...
Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get paid by
Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
@Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
> The rationale is that when people open up a web
> browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and
> that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
question is then what people want to do after starting their browser end
how we can facilitate this. maybe open a page with all the categorized
bookmarks in [+]/[-] expandable/collapsable lists?
//meine
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--
-Elad Alfassa.
11:01 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get
paid by
Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
Except that it is, because of our agreement to use the Firefox
trademark - we can't modify the browser at all.
11:18 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jon Stanley <jonstanley(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Elad Alfassa
<elad(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
> Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get paid
by
> Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
Except that it is, because of our agreement to use the Firefox
trademark - we can't modify the browser at all.
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We can't modify the code unless the modifications are approved by mozilla,
but we can modify default preferences.
--
-Elad Alfassa.
5:32 a.m.
Hi there,
This is an old thread, we have not decided anything because:
- Alternatives are not 100% Open Source
- Users like the Google results.
I haven't checked about seeks update, but nowadays we could use
https://startpage.com/ which is search engine based on Google (it just
forward queries), but protecting our privacy. It uses Bing for
pictures and blinkx.com for movies.
http://duckduckgo.com/ Is by far the most interesting search engine,
and using the bang! syntax (!sp) we could ask DDG to give us startpage
results (i.e. Google!).
We are a leading edge community,
we are not simple users,
we should change start.fpo, and see with our browsers maintainer if
they want to switch.
Of course, this is only my voice, what about you?
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
5:34 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Kévin Raymond <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org>wrote:
Hi there,
This is an old thread, we have not decided anything because:
- Alternatives are not 100% Open Source
- Users like the Google results.
I haven't checked about seeks update, but nowadays we could use
https://startpage.com/ which is search engine based on Google (it just
forward queries), but protecting our privacy. It uses Bing for
pictures and blinkx.com for movies.
http://duckduckgo.com/ Is by far the most interesting search engine,
and using the bang! syntax (!sp) we could ask DDG to give us startpage
results (i.e. Google!).
We are a leading edge community,
we are not simple users,
we should change start.fpo, and see with our browsers maintainer if
they want to switch.
Of course, this is only my voice, what about you?
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
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My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See
discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
--
-Elad Alfassa.
5:43 a.m.
My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See
discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
start.fpo is useful and used by many users (Mairin gave us some stats
about her blog).
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
5:45 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Kévin Raymond <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org>wrote:
>
> My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See
> discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
>
start.fpo is useful and used by many users (Mairin gave us some stats
about her blog).
--
Kévin Raymond
(shaiton)
GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2
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If so, it needs to be re-designed, because the current design has too much
visual clutter.
--
-Elad Alfassa.
4391
days inactive
4475
days old
websites@lists.fedoraproject.org
19 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Digvijay Patankar -
Elad Alfassa -
Jon Stanley -
Karsten Wade -
Kévin Raymond -
meine -
Máirín Duffy -
Sijis Aviles -
Toshio Kuratomi