-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 06/29/2010 09:26 PM, Aaron Faanes wrote:

I feel like there's usability issues with some articles in the Fedora Project wiki. Here's a sample of some of them:

* Websites
* Women
* L10N
* Overview

I believe that these pages should be renamed to be more indicative of their content. Specifically, "Fedora" should be included for project pages, non-wiki-like titles such as "Overview" should be renamed, and esoteric abbreviations like L10N should be expanded.

* Websites -> Fedora Websites
* Women -> Fedora Women
* L10N -> Fedora Localization
* Overview -> Fedora Project (or perhaps simply Fedora)

Most pages should not include Fedora, since the Fedora wiki already implies a bias towards Fedora-related information. For example, I expect a page on Red Hat contributions to contain contributions that Red Hat has made to Fedora, so I feel like this is a suitable name.

I don't think this bias is a strong enough reason to exclude it from project pages. I'm not likely to assume that page called "Websites" is a project page since the name gives me no indication. The repetition of "Fedora" and the capitalization in "Fedora Websites" in the URL reinforces the fact that the page is about a group called "Fedora Websites," rather than websites in Fedora.

Redirects from "Fedora *" do not sufficiently solve the problem. The title on the article page will still be without "Fedora" and so will still evoke confusion. Tooltips shown by mousing over a link will also show this ambiguous title.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't think the repetition of "Fedora" is necessary. http://fedoraproject.org/docs reads much better than http://fedoraproject.org/fedora_docs. This is because I read it as "the docs page in the Fedora Project" and I am not confused. More importantly, I don't have any learned expectations about its content.

Wiki pages do have learned expectations. When given a URL to a wiki page, I expect that the content will be an article, and I expect the last part of the URL is the article title. This is why URLs like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki do not strike me as redundant or confusing. On the other hand, I would be confused if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview contained an overview of the Wikipedia.

Our wiki sadly violates these expectations. We name some articles using a "naive" convention, so the page's subject is ambiguous.

-- Aaron Faanes

Just to keep the list up to speed with the discussion, Aaron came over into #fedora-docs IRC room and we discussed the issue at hand. Below is the conversation.

Jun 29 23:11:41 <ianweller> dafrito: ping Jun 29 23:12:07 <dafrito> ianweller: pong Jun 29 23:12:16 <ianweller> dafrito: so let's talk about the mail you just sent to wiki@ Jun 29 23:12:24 <dafrito> sure Jun 29 23:12:56 <ianweller> can you reiterate your reasoning for wanting to include 'fedora' in page names? Jun 29 23:13:15 * Sparks goes to read mail Jun 29 23:13:51 <dafrito> 1. project names like QA, Infrastructure, Websites all are proper names for organizations, so from a wiki standpoint, they shouldn't be abbreviated Jun 29 23:14:16 <ianweller> but are we ever going to talk about QA, infrastructure, or websites outside of fedora on the wiki? Jun 29 23:14:39 <ianweller> i'm coming at it from a "why change something that we've done since i've been here and works just fine" standpoint Jun 29 23:16:02 <dafrito> no, but its not due to disambiguation from other pages. its to make the cognitive leap as small as possible Jun 29 23:16:39 <dafrito> they dont know that Websites is a page on Fedora Websites until they go there, and when they do go there, they're not reassured by the page title, since the page title seems like it's just about fedora-related websites Jun 29 23:17:19 <Sparks> but you are going to fedoraproject.org Jun 29 23:18:30 <dafrito> Sparks: that's true, but that's much less of a factor if I'm going to a site that I already have expectations about. People going to the wiki expect wiki-like behavior and articles to seem wiki-like Jun 29 23:18:36 <Sparks> It's like our lists... it's no longer fedora-docs-project@... it's docs@... Jun 29 23:18:50 <ianweller> i think the audience of the fedora wiki is vastly different than wikipedia's audience Jun 29 23:19:00 * Sparks agrees with ianweller Jun 29 23:19:11 <Sparks> this is not a wiki for the sake of it being a wiki Jun 29 23:19:30 <dafrito> I understand it's not a generic wiki Jun 29 23:19:34 <Sparks> this is a wiki because the wiki is a tool that we can use to lower the bar of contribution Jun 29 23:19:43 <dafrito> lots of wikis are like the fedora wiki Jun 29 23:20:08 <Sparks> It's under the Fedora name... it's under the Fedora URL... it's going to be about Fedora, right? Jun 29 23:20:24 <dafrito> It is Jun 29 23:20:46 <Sparks> wouldn't it be redundant to call out the Fedora, then? Jun 29 23:20:52 <quaid> can I make an observation? Jun 29 23:20:55 <dafrito> But "Websites" isnt a page about websites in Fedora, it's a page about Fedora Websites Jun 29 23:20:56 <Sparks> quaid: Sure Jun 29 23:21:02 <quaid> historically, our wiki has been more focused on _contributors_ Jun 29 23:21:10 <quaid> and is actually been not so focused on _end_users_ Jun 29 23:21:27 * Sparks thinks quaid makes a good point Jun 29 23:21:29 <quaid> so contributors will know that Websites means "Fedora Websites", while that is more ambigious for end users Jun 29 23:21:51 <quaid> I don't have a solution ... and I think it's important that we do turn this in to an end-user wiki Jun 29 23:21:58 <quaid> *or* we start a new one that is just for end-users Jun 29 23:22:22 <dafrito> quaid: I would argue that a consumer of the wiki is typically both an end-user and a contributor Jun 29 23:22:35 <quaid> dafrito: so, [[Websites]] -> [[Websites Project]] or [[Websites Special Interest Group]] Jun 29 23:23:26 <dafrito> Sparks: I think the redundancy helps users, rather than harms them. It reinforces the fact that a page is discussing a group Jun 29 23:23:32 <Sparks> wouldn't better artwork help this problem? Jun 29 23:23:50 <ianweller> what about the headers that most subprojects use at the top of their pages Jun 29 23:23:51 <Sparks> it doesn't matter the URL... the appearance of the page does Jun 29 23:23:53 <ianweller> that say "fedora websites" Jun 29 23:23:57 <ianweller> i mean, doesn't that solve Jun 29 23:24:20 <rudi> We seem to have formal distinctions between Project/Sub-project/SIG Jun 29 23:24:33 <rudi> And Websites seems to be a sub-project, I think? Jun 29 23:24:59 <ianweller> project == sub-project last i heard Jun 29 23:25:20 <ianweller> but the nomenclature is aged, look at 'design team', which is an official sub-project Jun 29 23:25:23 <rudi> OK Jun 29 23:25:40 <ianweller> in fact i'm not even sure if the board has been keeping tabs on what is an official sub-project or not, and whether we should actually care Jun 29 23:25:47 <rudi> I thought that strictly, "Fedora" was the only "Project" Jun 29 23:25:58 <ianweller> yes Jun 29 23:26:04 * Sparks has been trying to make the Docs subproject into a superproject Jun 29 23:26:12 <ianweller> Sparks: ;) Jun 29 23:26:15 <rudi> +1 Sparks :) Jun 29 23:26:24 <quaid> rudi: that formal distinction is less anything now, I think Jun 29 23:26:39 <quaid> I say Docs Team all the time, too Jun 29 23:26:45 <rudi> Well, in that case, we should probably just adopt a single name for everything Jun 29 23:27:06 <quaid> dafrito: of course contributors are end users, but they are a self-selected and know more about Fedora because of it Jun 29 23:27:07 <rudi> And cleanse the ambiguity :) Jun 29 23:27:18 * ianweller pulls the conversation back to wiki naming and whether or not 'fedora' in wiki titles is redundant or not Jun 29 23:27:34 <quaid> I have always found it redundant and distracting, fwiw Jun 29 23:27:42 <ianweller> and it's a PITA to type Jun 29 23:27:44 <quaid> one reason I was happy to eradicate it Jun 29 23:27:46 <ianweller> over and over again Jun 29 23:27:48 <Sparks> ianweller: I swear I had this conversation with someone three years ago Jun 29 23:27:54 <quaid> dafrito: when you see [[Docs Project]] do you know right away what that page is? Jun 29 23:27:54 <ianweller> Sparks: it was probably me Jun 29 23:27:59 <Sparks> maybe Jun 29 23:28:00 <ianweller> Sparks: even though i wasn't in fedora three yeras ago Jun 29 23:28:03 <Sparks> heh Jun 29 23:28:12 <Sparks> it might have been Paul or Jared Jun 29 23:28:17 <Sparks> or quaid Jun 29 23:28:21 <dafrito> quaid: I do Jun 29 23:28:22 <rudi> FWIW, I'd rather we said "Documentation Project" than "Docs Project" Jun 29 23:28:39 <dafrito> It just doesn't seem like using the wrong name for a page is the right answer Jun 29 23:28:47 <ianweller> how is it wrong Jun 29 23:28:55 <dafrito> Many many more people will read the page than type it, so I don't think that's a valid reason to not do it Jun 29 23:28:57 <Sparks> but IMO shorter is better, Fedora is redundant, and I need to find that script to make the fp work in my browser again Jun 29 23:28:57 <ianweller> like, right now, it's just two conflicting opinions Jun 29 23:29:50 <quaid> rudi: more about saving typing :) Jun 29 23:29:58 <dafrito> It seems to me that the page title should be the formal, easiest-to-recognize-and-understand name for a page Jun 29 23:30:07 <dafrito> Is that not the case? Jun 29 23:30:13 * rajeshr (~rranjan@nat/redhat/x-zsbriajnakcdrrqm) has joined #fedora-docs Jun 29 23:30:21 <ianweller> the wiki is highly informal Jun 29 23:30:30 <quaid> that is the case, but the question is "Does putting Fedora in there do that" Jun 29 23:30:32 <ianweller> in an attempt to lower the barrier to contribute for one Jun 29 23:30:58 <quaid> ianweller: we'd like to see that improved, though, in terms of some of the PageNames and Fakey/Nesting/Practices Jun 29 23:31:22 <dafrito> ianweller: I don't find being informal to be a feature of the wik. It seems to be to its detriment Jun 29 23:31:48 <quaid> we're not going to ever make all of it formal Jun 29 23:31:50 <ianweller> sure, it's a detriment in terms of "wow i can't find anything", but that's up to the people writing the wiki pages to make sure they can be found Jun 29 23:31:56 <ianweller> or up to somebody else who wants it to be found Jun 29 23:31:58 <Sparks> dafrito: Why would you think that a page in the Fedora wiki wouldn't be about Fedora? Jun 29 23:32:10 <quaid> if we try for more formality, it's going to need to be on certain types of pages or specific high-hit pages. Jun 29 23:32:17 <quaid> s/pages/pages and topics/ Jun 29 23:32:23 <dafrito> Sparks: I assume every page is Fedora-related Jun 29 23:32:35 <Sparks> so right there the Fedora is redundant Jun 29 23:32:41 <dafrito> Sparks: What I can't automatically assume is every page is about a group Jun 29 23:32:50 <quaid> it certainly isn't Jun 29 23:32:55 <Sparks> it doesn't have to be about a group Jun 29 23:33:04 <ianweller> 'websites' is about the fedora websites Jun 29 23:33:19 <Sparks> If you are looking for a way to distinguish group pages in the wiki then that's a completely different problem Jun 29 23:33:25 <quaid> dafrito: fwiw, [[Fedora Websites]] doesn't reflect what [[Websites]] is, which is a page about the special interest group/sub-project that works on Fedora's websites Jun 29 23:33:35 <ianweller> we already have [[docs]] and [[docs project]] separated out, because that's necessary Jun 29 23:33:36 <Sparks> One that is solved through categories and not page names Jun 29 23:33:44 <quaid> [[Fedora Websites]] sounds more to me like what you said the other did -- a list of sites about Fedora, or a list of Fedora web properties, Jun 29 23:33:56 <quaid> ianweller: that is a good example Jun 29 23:35:21 <dafrito> quaid: The "Websites" pages seems to be about the group/project, not just websites in general. Jun 29 23:35:46 <Sparks> and Fedora Websites seems to be about websites in general Jun 29 23:36:06 <quaid> what I see is that dafrito has identified an actual problem ... that we honestly know about but haven't tried to tackle very well ... and I suspect if we keep looking for solutions we'll find one that fits better than putting Fedora in page titles (but we'll see) Jun 29 23:36:23 <Sparks> quaid: How about... Jun 29 23:36:43 <ianweller> i agree that the page titles are hardly intuitive, but yeah, putting 'fedora' in them isn't the best thing to do when that's already inheret Jun 29 23:36:43 <Sparks> just putting "Project" behind the super-projects and "SIG" behind the SIGs Jun 29 23:36:46 <ianweller> inherent* Jun 29 23:36:55 <Sparks> You could search on that Jun 29 23:37:01 <quaid> e.g. this is right but could be [[How to join the project planet]] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_Fedora_Planet Jun 29 23:37:05 <Sparks> someone already did a category for those Jun 29 23:37:10 <quaid> Sparks: yes, I think we do need to do that Jun 29 23:37:27 <Sparks> That would be fairly simple Jun 29 23:37:27 <ianweller> Sparks: not to pile blockers on this, but i'd like to see if the 'project' or 'sig' definition is still necessary when they could all easily be labeled 'teams' and still have the same benefits Jun 29 23:37:30 <quaid> although I argue for [[FOO Special Interest Group]] as main title with a [[Foo SIG]] redirect Jun 29 23:37:40 <Sparks> ianweller: sure Jun 29 23:37:40 <dafrito> ianweller: +1 to that idea Jun 29 23:37:43 <quaid> ianweller: f-a-b? Jun 29 23:37:52 * ianweller adds that to tonight's todos Jun 29 23:37:56 <ianweller> i'll email f-a-b, yeah Jun 29 23:38:01 <quaid> which is short hand for, take it to advisory@ list Jun 29 23:38:21 <ianweller> we should call the top posters the fab four Jun 29 23:38:27 <ianweller> f-a-b four Jun 29 23:38:28 <rbergeron> lol Jun 29 23:38:33 <Sparks> that was bad Jun 29 23:38:44 <rbergeron> john, paul.... Jun 29 23:38:50 <ianweller> lol Jun 29 23:38:51 <rbergeron> we need a ringo, and a george. Jun 29 23:39:15 <ianweller> i could be ringo, and write posts with the same level of sense as "octopus's garden" Jun 29 23:39:16 <rbergeron> or a richard, and a george, would suffice. Jun 29 23:39:16 * kasun has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) Jun 29 23:40:09 <dafrito> Not to continue beating a dead horse, but I don't think we're be adding Fedora to the page title. Currently, we strip it out due to redundancy. Jun 29 23:40:41 <dafrito> I mean, it seems like the burden of proof is on wiki editors to justify using something other than the official name as the article title Jun 29 23:40:55 <ianweller> dafrito: did you do policy debate Jun 29 23:41:04 <ianweller> (random) Jun 29 23:41:13 <dafrito> ianweller: no Jun 29 23:41:16 <ianweller> ok. Jun 29 23:41:36 * ianweller saw "burden of proof" and it tripped a flag in his head Jun 29 23:41:44 <ianweller> dafrito: well, ok. so i'd agree with using the official name