Hi,
I don't like the Archive/Delete processes that we have, and here is why, and how I think it should be changed.
The cost of creating a wiki page should be very low. This encourages collaboration, and it encourages people to try to write down crazy ideas that may or may not work.
The ability to delete a wiki page is not easy. I can't find it now, but a while back I saw a bunch of requirements that a page had to meet in order to be "deleted" and otherwise it can only be "archived".
I submit to you that a process like that discourages people from ever moving a page to the Archive namespace, because they no longer have control over its final fate. If I create a page in my own personal namespace and want that page to be deleted, as I understand it right now I can't do that all by myself. That's wrong.
I guess I see the world as black and white. Either a page is useful, or it is not. Why would you want to keep an archived copy of a useless or outdated page sitting around? What if the owner of that page would simply prefer that the page cease to exist? Why is it better for Fedora to have a big pile of abandoned pages sitting around, rather than simply purge them and move on?
Something like Archive: allows you to have a window of time to take a look at what might end up being deleted -- as a sanity check -- but I think that after a page has been in Archive for a week or 2 weeks, anyone should be able to make that page go away.
Anyone should be able to trivially get a list of all pages that have been in Archive: for X amount of time, look at them, and then delete them if they think they should be deleted.
My .02, Max
On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 09:59:25PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote:
I don't like the Archive/Delete processes that we have, and here is why, and how I think it should be changed.
The cost of creating a wiki page should be very low. This encourages collaboration, and it encourages people to try to write down crazy ideas that may or may not work.
The ability to delete a wiki page is not easy. I can't find it now, but a while back I saw a bunch of requirements that a page had to meet in order to be "deleted" and otherwise it can only be "archived".
I submit to you that a process like that discourages people from ever moving a page to the Archive namespace, because they no longer have control over its final fate. If I create a page in my own personal namespace and want that page to be deleted, as I understand it right now I can't do that all by myself. That's wrong.
I guess I see the world as black and white. Either a page is useful, or it is not. Why would you want to keep an archived copy of a useless or outdated page sitting around? What if the owner of that page would simply prefer that the page cease to exist? Why is it better for Fedora to have a big pile of abandoned pages sitting around, rather than simply purge them and move on?
Something like Archive: allows you to have a window of time to take a look at what might end up being deleted -- as a sanity check -- but I think that after a page has been in Archive for a week or 2 weeks, anyone should be able to make that page go away.
Anyone should be able to trivially get a list of all pages that have been in Archive: for X amount of time, look at them, and then delete them if they think they should be deleted.
Users without the 'delete' right can't delete any pages in MediaWiki, and users with it can delete all pages (even the Main Page[1]). This can't be specific to the areas you defined.
Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a mistake (see footnote [1] again).
And if I'm reading any of this wrong, tell me. I'll also bring this up to vote at the next FDSCo meeting and see if we have consensus -- it sounds perfectly sane to me. Discussion on this list is encouraged.
[1]: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WW:DDMP [2]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Deletion
On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 03:31:26PM -0500, Ian Weller wrote:
Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a mistake (see footnote [1] again).
I think, if there is an undeletion function as well, then:
(1) More than one person should have the ability to delete pages, although it doesn't need to be everyone.
(2) A policy of deleting anything in Archive: older than two weeks sounds is sensible and good.
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Ian Weller wrote:
Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current policy[2].
[2] is the page I was looking for that I'd seen previously. Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of that policy, but I don't expect it to be changed just because I don't like it.
I have a feeling I'm going to be asked to argue my case on IRC shortly. :)
The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a mistake (see footnote [1] again).
Cool.
--Max
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 03:31:26PM -0500, Ian Weller wrote:
Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a mistake (see footnote [1] again).
I think, if there is an undeletion function as well, then:
(1) More than one person should have the ability to delete pages, although it doesn't need to be everyone.
(2) A policy of deleting anything in Archive: older than two weeks sounds is sensible and good.
I have no problem with having more pages deleted - after a period of time to let people know of the change in policy.
I am, however, a bit concerned about some pages that might currently be in archive that should NOT be deleted. For example, in the various cleanup efforts since the conversion I know some stuff was moved to archive to get it out of the default search but with the understanding that it was not completely gone and a search of archives would bring up the pages for reference.
One big example would be HOWTO pages related to end of life versions - it is a shame to delete them completely since there are people who still used those older version but I don't want a default search of selinux to bring up the guide to selinux on FC5.
There are also some packaging guideline drafts that were rejected or dropped due to lack of followup. I don't want those in a default search either but I also do not want people submitting the same suggestion over and over simply because it appears that no one ever had tried before. They should search Packaging, main, and archive for similar suggestions before submitting a new draft.
These are just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head.
-Susan
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
fedora-wiki mailing list fedora-wiki@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki
Earlier today, Max brought up a good point about being able to remove pages from the wiki. We discussed it and came up with the following plan.
If you want something removed from the wiki,
1. Add the {{delete|reason}} template to the page, at the top. Please insert the reason for your deletion so the wiki team will have no problem understanding why the page needs to evaporate.
2. Move the page to the Archive: namespace. Select the move tab at the top of the page, and simply rename the page to include the prefix "Archive:". * EXAMPLE: My_ugly_old_page => Archive:My_ugly_old_page * EXAMPLE: User:Jpublic/Some_page =>Archive:User:Jpublic/Some_page
Pages moved in this way are removed by the wiki team after a two-week cooling-off period.
Additional information on the new deletion policy can be found at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Deletion.
Thanks, Eric Fedora Docs Project
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6 1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1
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Eric Christensen -
Ian Weller -
Max Spevack -
Paul W. Frields -
Susan Lauber