8:30 p.m.
Hi,
currently the Xfce spin is overweight, at least for x86_64. It's 726M,
that is 30M more than i686, but this seems normal. That means that we
need to find a way to save 26M.
First thing that comes to my mind are the gnome packages we ship:
# rpm -qa --qf %{NAME}-%{VERSION}-%{VERSION}\\n| grep gnome | sort
desktop-backgrounds-gnome-18.0.0-18.0.0
gnome-bluetooth-libs-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-desktop3-3.6.0.1-3.6.0.1
gnome-icon-theme-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-icon-theme-legacy-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-icon-theme-symbolic-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-python2-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-bonobo-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-canvas-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-desktop-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-python2-gconf-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-gnome-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-gnomekeyring-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-python2-gnomevfs-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-session-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-themes-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-themes-standard-3.6.0.2-3.6.0.2
gnome-vfs2-2.24.4-2.24.4
gnome-video-effects-0.4.0-0.4.0
imsettings-gnome-1.3.1-1.3.1
libgnome-2.32.1-2.32.1
libgnomecanvas-2.30.3-2.30.3
libgnomekbd-3.6.0-3.6.0
libgnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
libgnomeui-2.24.5-2.24.5
libopenraw-gnome-0.0.8-0.0.8
polkit-gnome-0.105-0.105
spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome-17.92.0-17.92.0
Next I investigated their dependencies. First is the package name and
then what pulls it in. Dependencies are marked with -> while a colon
indicates a new package or dependency chain:
* desktop-backgrounds-gnome: system-backgrounds-gnome (virtual
provides of spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome) -> gnome-desktop3
-> cheese
* gnome-bluetooth-libs: nm-connection-editor -> anaconda and
NetworkManager
* gnome-desktop3: cheese (it only requires libgnome-desktop3)
* gnome-icon-theme: system-config-printer, gnome-themes-standard
-> gnome-desktop3 -> cheese, nm-connection-editor,
network-manager-applet, gnome-themes
* gnome-icon-theme-legacy: libxfcegui4, ibus-gtk2
* gnome-icon-theme-symbolic: anaconda-18.8-2.fc18.i686
* gnome-keyring
* gnome-python2: gnome-python2-*
* gnome-python2-bonobo: blueman -> dbus-bluez-pin-helper (virtual
provides) -> bluez
* gnome-python2-canvas: gnome-python2-bonobo -> blueman,
system-config-date -> firstboot, gnome-python2-gnome ->
gnome-python2-desktop -> gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-desktop: ... (see above) -> system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-gconf: blueman
* gnome-python2-gnome: blueman
* gnome-python2-gnomekeyring: system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-gnomevfs: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
* gnome-session: blueman (update without this dep is pending)
* gnome-themes: fedora-icon-theme
* gnome-themes-standard: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
* gnome-vfs2: gnome-python2-gnomevfs -> blueman
* gnome-video-effects: cheese
* imsettings-gnome: ibus
* libgnome: gnome-python2-bonobo, gnome-python2-gnome, libgnomeui,
libbonoboui -> blueman, bluez
* libgnomecanvas: gnome-python2-canvas (see above)
* libgnomekbd: ibus, anaconda
* libgnome-keyring: gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
system-config-printer
* libgnomeui: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
* libopenraw-gnome: ristretto and tumbler
* polkit-gnome: we use this one
* spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
Observations:
* As for the libraries, there is nothing we can do. They are not
big either.
* Same goes for the gnome-python2-* packages. Most of them are
required by blueman or by system-config-* stuff. blueman adds
~23M (installed size, not iso size), but compared to
gnome-bluetooth and it's dependencies, it is still good (~130M!)
* gnome-desktop3 is big and has a lot of deps (themes!), while we
only need the libgnome-desktop-3 for cheese. That's why I filed
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693545 but I don't
think it will be fixed, at least not in time for F18.
* libxfcegui4 depdends on gnome-icon-theme-legacy. This is a
workaround to prevent missing icons (#647734 and #650504). The
legacy package depends on gnome-icon-theme and only provides
symlinks from the old icon names to new freedesktop.org names.
Unfortunately Xfce still hardcodes a lot of old names, even in
4.10. We need to work with the Xfce developers to fix this for
Xfce 4.12 and then we can remove this ugly dependency. It's
definitely too late to do this for F18 now - unless somebody has
time to look into this.
* We only have gnome-themes in the spin because it is a dependency
of fedora-icon-theme. And this is weird: The Fedora theme
inherits the 'Mist', which is part of gnome-themes. We could
make two separate packages mist-icon-theme and crux-icon-theme,
but I wonder if fedora-icon-theme should inherit 'Mist' in first
place. AFAIK GNOME now now uses gnome-icon-theme.
Next I looked how much space we could save if we remove packages. I
tested this with 'yum remove --remove-leaves foo' on the live system, so
again, this is installed size, not iso size:
78M cheese (gnome-desktop3 and wallpapers, gstreamer1)
61M firefox (xulrunner)
45M midori and liferea (webkitgtk)
33M claws-mail and plugins
33M pidgin
33M gnumeric
32M abiword
23M blueman
14M claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter (bogofilter, gsl, atlas)
14M abrt-desktop
12M geany
8.3M xfce4-icon-theme
7.8M pavucontrol
6.3M seahorse
6.3M transmission
5.3M xfburn
5.1M orage
4M midori
4.1M system-config-printer
3.5M remmina
2.7M lifearea
2.5M xfce4-screenshooter
2.2M parole
1.6M gnome-session (will be gone when the blueman update is stable)
1.5M asunder
1.5M xarchiver
1.4M xfce4-clipman-plugin
1.3M iok
1.1M ristretto
955k pragha
690k galcultor
529K xfce4-dict + -plugin
518k xfce4-notes-plugin
466k xfce4-mixer (we would need to package the panel plugin separate and
make it launch pavucontrol)
396k epdfview
226k setroubleshoot
187k catfish
Conclusion:
* Xfce components are small, it does not make sense to remove any
of them. The only exception is xfce4-icon-theme.
* The killer is cheese. It's not only the the gnome-desktop3
problem I explained earlier, but also that it uses gstreamer
1.0. This means we would install two complete gstreamer stacks
or we would have to build xfce4-mixer, pragha and parole and
with gstreamer 1.0, too. Not sure if this is already possible.
* Removing midori or lifearea doesn't save much space, but
removing both of them makes a huge difference because we don't
need webkitgtk.
Suggestions:
1. Drop xfce4-icon-theme, it's broken anyway. I suggest to mark it
as "optional" in comps so it no longer gets installed by default
(and on the spin).
2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly notice
it.
3. Drop cheese, at least if we cannot get gnome-desktop3 split up.
xfce4-icon-theme and claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter will not help
us much, but cheese alone could do the trick.
4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori only
makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
Additional packages:
There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is no
ifconfig. It's only 294k.
2. I's like to see the new mousepad version in the spin, but
unfortunately it adds another 4.1 through it's dependency to
gtksourceview2. leafpad on the other hand is only 322k.
I suggest to first discuss this a little here on this list and once we
have agreed on something, we'll move forward with the bug at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=853590
Best regards,
Christoph
9:11 p.m.
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:30:33 +0200
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com> wrote:
...snip...
Suggestions:
1. Drop xfce4-icon-theme, it's broken anyway. I suggest to mark
it as "optional" in comps so it no longer gets installed by default
(and on the spin).
Yeah. +1.
2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly
notice
it.
Yep. I use it, but it should be easy for anyone who does to just
install.
3. Drop cheese, at least if we cannot get gnome-desktop3 split
up. xfce4-icon-theme and claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter will not help
us much, but cheese alone could do the trick.
+1
If we still want a web camera app we could look at camorama. It's
really old, but it seems to work ok here and doesn't pull in much...
4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori
only
makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
Yeah. I personally would like to see midori stay. ;)
Additional packages:
There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is
no ifconfig. It's only 294k.
Sure I guess, but you should retrain yourself to use 'ip' :)
2. I's like to see the new mousepad version in the spin,
but
unfortunately it adds another 4.1 through it's dependency to
gtksourceview2. leafpad on the other hand is only 322k.
Yeah. I am ok with just staying with leafpad.
kevin
4:41 a.m.
On 07/10/12 03:11, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
apoligies late to this.
Based on F17 sizes.
Name : claws-mail-plugins-rssyl
Size : 334 k
Name : liferea
Size : 846 k
remove liferea?
>> Additional packages:
>> There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
>> 1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is
>> no ifconfig. It's only 294k.
I believe ifconfig will be going anyway in F18\19 can't find relevant
thread.
--
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:30:33 +0200
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly notice
> it.
Yep. I use it, but it should be easy for anyone who does to just
install.
+1
> 4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori only
> makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
Firefox can be added back by those that need it.
Yeah. I personally would like to see midori stay. ;)
12:28 p.m.
On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:34:35 -0200
Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> remove liferea?
>
He meant that by removing both Midori and Liferea then there would be
space saving (IIRC due to webkit-gtk).
I meant you could replace liferea with the claws-mail plugin for rss
needs. It's still 500k, sometimes small steps.
--
Regards,
Frank
4:31 a.m.
Hi,
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:30:33 +0200
Christoph Wickert wrote:
* gnome-desktop3 is big and has a lot of deps (themes!), while
we only need the libgnome-desktop-3 for cheese. That's why I filed
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693545 but I don't
think it will be fixed, at least not in time for F18.
actually the images
for themes are shared between desktops, wherever
it makes sense, so the two theme packages you mention sum up to about
only 1kB...
Suggestions:
1. Drop xfce4-icon-theme, it's broken anyway. I suggest to mark
it as "optional" in comps so it no longer gets installed by default
(and on the spin).
+1
2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly
notice
it.
+1
3. Drop cheese, at least if we cannot get gnome-desktop3 split
up. xfce4-icon-theme and claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter will not help
us much, but cheese alone could do the trick.
+1
4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori
only
makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
Isn't webkitgtk used by claws
as well? Anyway, I'd personally favour
midori over firefox, i.e. keep midori. It has more XFCE-y feel.
Additional packages:
There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is
no ifconfig. It's only 294k.
+1
Regards,
Martin
7:32 a.m.
As much as I like Midori, the webkitgtk browser is broken for some
people (including me).
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97101
It *simply* crashes on launchpad.net (Midori's site) and duckduckgo.com
(default search engine).
Since I suspect this affects people with single core CPUs (or some
missing feature they have) I doubt it will be fixed.
So I can't use it but I opened a bug report about a new feature (or lack
of) in 0.4.7. It removes the setting of how to display buttons (icon
only, text and icon etc.) when the DE has a setting for that (Xfce
included).
IMO, that's a lame 'design' decision. It can be worked around by
launching the browser with something like (IIRC)
unset DESKTOP_SESSION midori
This issue will mostly affect new users as the old users that had set
the button option will have it followed.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/midori/+bug/1052570
Just posting in case it affects someone (for large screens it probably
doesn't matter so much).
At least Christian resisted to make GTK3 default. webkitgtk3 browser is
even worse in my machine.
9:13 a.m.
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com> wrote:
As much as I like Midori, the webkitgtk browser is broken for some
people
(including me).
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_**bug.cgi?id=97101<https://bugs.webkit.or...
It *simply* crashes on launchpad.net (Midori's site) and duckduckgo.com(default
search engine).
Since I suspect this affects people with single core CPUs (or some missing
feature they have) I doubt it will be fixed.
So I can't use it but I opened a bug report about a new feature (or lack
of) in 0.4.7. It removes the setting of how to display buttons (icon only,
text and icon etc.) when the DE has a setting for that (Xfce included).
IMO, that's a lame 'design' decision. It can be worked around by launching
the browser with something like (IIRC)
unset DESKTOP_SESSION midori
This issue will mostly affect new users as the old users that had set the
button option will have it followed.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/**midori/+bug/1052570<https://bugs.launchpa...
Just posting in case it affects someone (for large screens it probably
doesn't matter so much).
At least Christian resisted to make GTK3 default. webkitgtk3 browser is
even worse in my machine.
______________________________**_________________
xfce mailing list
xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/xfce<https://admin....
It is sad that some users have problems on some sites with midori on some
site, but is it severe enough to need to put firefox on the XFCE LiveCD,
most people
will use the LiveCd to test XFCE on Fedora, but if they want to use it for
real, they will install it on hard drive and add firefox or chrome, if
Midori don't fit there needs.
And sure that firefox also have issues with some sites :)
Tim
9:18 a.m.
It is sad that some users have problems on some sites with midori on
some
site, but is it severe enough to need to put firefox on the XFCE LiveCD,
most people
will use the LiveCd to test XFCE on Fedora, but if they want to use it for
real, they will install it on hard drive and add firefox or chrome, if
Midori don't fit there needs.
And sure that firefox also have issues with some sites :)
Tim
I was just saying in case anyone was interested.
As for the issues, webkitgtk is the worst by far in my experience.
I myself have Chrome, Firefox and Qupzilla (webkit/Qt) and all work just
fine.
1:38 p.m.
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 09:32:09 -0300
Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com> wrote:
As much as I like Midori, the webkitgtk browser is broken for some
people (including me).
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97101
It *simply* crashes on launchpad.net (Midori's site) and
duckduckgo.com (default search engine).
Odd. I've not see this before...
Since I suspect this affects people with single core CPUs (or some
missing feature they have) I doubt it will be fixed.
Have you tried asking the midori developer? If it's really an issue in
midori he should know where to look at least.
kevin
2:37 p.m.
On 10/07/2012 03:38 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 09:32:09 -0300
Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> As much as I like Midori, the webkitgtk browser is broken for some
> people (including me).
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97101
> It *simply* crashes on launchpad.net (Midori's site) and
> duckduckgo.com (default search engine).
Odd. I've not see this before...
You can find on google similar reports about the cairo crash. It
happened with several apps but it was due to bugs on the apps
themselves, not cairo. In webkitgtk it was never fixed.
> Since I suspect this affects people with single core CPUs (or some
> missing feature they have) I doubt it will be fixed.
Have you tried asking the midori developer? If it's really an issue in
midori he should know where to look at least.
kevin
I wrote to Christian several times about it but he said something like
it's in a component that he doesn't now much about hacking.
6:20 a.m.
Taking about saving space on XFCE Live spin.
What about removing java, java-1.7.0-openjdk is the #2 largest packages on
the current live CD only glibc-common is bigger.
It is a very high price for having java in the browser.
Doing a yum remove java*, will save 96M (installed size)
PackageKit is still installed, even if gnome-packagekit is no longer used.
it looks like @standard contains 'PackageKit-yum-plugin' there pull in the
rest of the packages.
the 'realmd' also pull in 'PackageKit-glib', but is it even useful in
XFCE,
It look very releated to the gnome world.
-PackageKit*
-realmd
in the live cd kickstart, will save 4.1M installed size on the live cd.
Tim
7:55 a.m.
Not much related to space saving but I'm running the TC3 spin and I
noticed that lxpolkit is installed. blueman requires either lxpolkit
or polkit-gnome and the latter is required by xfce4-session so
lxpolkit could be removed (actually I removed it from the live-CD
fine).
+1 'yum remove PackageKit* realmd'
6:01 a.m.
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 6:20 AM, tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com
<tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Taking about saving space on XFCE Live spin.
What about removing java, java-1.7.0-openjdk is the #2 largest packages on
the current live CD only glibc-common is bigger.
It is a very high price for having java in the browser.
Doing a yum remove java*, will save 96M (installed size)
As a java developer, I concur. It's the sort of thing a developer
would want to install under his own control, anyway.
7:29 a.m.
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Christoph Wickert <
christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
currently the Xfce spin is overweight, at least for x86_64. It's 726M,
that is 30M more than i686, but this seems normal. That means that we
need to find a way to save 26M.
First thing that comes to my mind are the gnome packages we ship:
# rpm -qa --qf %{NAME}-%{VERSION}-%{VERSION}\\n| grep gnome | sort
desktop-backgrounds-gnome-18.0.0-18.0.0
gnome-bluetooth-libs-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-desktop3-3.6.0.1-3.6.0.1
gnome-icon-theme-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-icon-theme-legacy-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-icon-theme-symbolic-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-python2-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-bonobo-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-canvas-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-desktop-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-python2-gconf-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-gnome-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-python2-gnomekeyring-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-python2-gnomevfs-2.28.1-2.28.1
gnome-session-3.6.0-3.6.0
gnome-themes-2.32.0-2.32.0
gnome-themes-standard-3.6.0.2-3.6.0.2
gnome-vfs2-2.24.4-2.24.4
gnome-video-effects-0.4.0-0.4.0
imsettings-gnome-1.3.1-1.3.1
libgnome-2.32.1-2.32.1
libgnomecanvas-2.30.3-2.30.3
libgnomekbd-3.6.0-3.6.0
libgnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
libgnomeui-2.24.5-2.24.5
libopenraw-gnome-0.0.8-0.0.8
polkit-gnome-0.105-0.105
spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome-17.92.0-17.92.0
Next I investigated their dependencies. First is the package name and
then what pulls it in. Dependencies are marked with -> while a colon
indicates a new package or dependency chain:
* desktop-backgrounds-gnome: system-backgrounds-gnome (virtual
provides of spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome) -> gnome-desktop3
-> cheese
* gnome-bluetooth-libs: nm-connection-editor -> anaconda and
NetworkManager
* gnome-desktop3: cheese (it only requires libgnome-desktop3)
* gnome-icon-theme: system-config-printer, gnome-themes-standard
-> gnome-desktop3 -> cheese, nm-connection-editor,
network-manager-applet, gnome-themes
* gnome-icon-theme-legacy: libxfcegui4, ibus-gtk2
* gnome-icon-theme-symbolic: anaconda-18.8-2.fc18.i686
* gnome-keyring
* gnome-python2: gnome-python2-*
* gnome-python2-bonobo: blueman -> dbus-bluez-pin-helper (virtual
provides) -> bluez
* gnome-python2-canvas: gnome-python2-bonobo -> blueman,
system-config-date -> firstboot, gnome-python2-gnome ->
gnome-python2-desktop -> gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-desktop: ... (see above) -> system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-gconf: blueman
* gnome-python2-gnome: blueman
* gnome-python2-gnomekeyring: system-config-printer
* gnome-python2-gnomevfs: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
* gnome-session: blueman (update without this dep is pending)
* gnome-themes: fedora-icon-theme
* gnome-themes-standard: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
* gnome-vfs2: gnome-python2-gnomevfs -> blueman
* gnome-video-effects: cheese
* imsettings-gnome: ibus
* libgnome: gnome-python2-bonobo, gnome-python2-gnome, libgnomeui,
libbonoboui -> blueman, bluez
* libgnomecanvas: gnome-python2-canvas (see above)
* libgnomekbd: ibus, anaconda
* libgnome-keyring: gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
system-config-printer
* libgnomeui: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
* libopenraw-gnome: ristretto and tumbler
* polkit-gnome: we use this one
* spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
Observations:
* As for the libraries, there is nothing we can do. They are not
big either.
* Same goes for the gnome-python2-* packages. Most of them are
required by blueman or by system-config-* stuff. blueman adds
~23M (installed size, not iso size), but compared to
gnome-bluetooth and it's dependencies, it is still good (~130M!)
* gnome-desktop3 is big and has a lot of deps (themes!), while we
only need the libgnome-desktop-3 for cheese. That's why I filed
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693545 but I don't
think it will be fixed, at least not in time for F18.
* libxfcegui4 depdends on gnome-icon-theme-legacy. This is a
workaround to prevent missing icons (#647734 and #650504). The
legacy package depends on gnome-icon-theme and only provides
symlinks from the old icon names to new freedesktop.org names.
Unfortunately Xfce still hardcodes a lot of old names, even in
4.10. We need to work with the Xfce developers to fix this for
Xfce 4.12 and then we can remove this ugly dependency. It's
definitely too late to do this for F18 now - unless somebody has
time to look into this.
* We only have gnome-themes in the spin because it is a dependency
of fedora-icon-theme. And this is weird: The Fedora theme
inherits the 'Mist', which is part of gnome-themes. We could
make two separate packages mist-icon-theme and crux-icon-theme,
but I wonder if fedora-icon-theme should inherit 'Mist' in first
place. AFAIK GNOME now now uses gnome-icon-theme.
Next I looked how much space we could save if we remove packages. I
tested this with 'yum remove --remove-leaves foo' on the live system, so
again, this is installed size, not iso size:
78M cheese (gnome-desktop3 and wallpapers, gstreamer1)
61M firefox (xulrunner)
45M midori and liferea (webkitgtk)
33M claws-mail and plugins
33M pidgin
33M gnumeric
32M abiword
23M blueman
14M claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter (bogofilter, gsl, atlas)
14M abrt-desktop
12M geany
8.3M xfce4-icon-theme
7.8M pavucontrol
6.3M seahorse
6.3M transmission
5.3M xfburn
5.1M orage
4M midori
4.1M system-config-printer
3.5M remmina
2.7M lifearea
2.5M xfce4-screenshooter
2.2M parole
1.6M gnome-session (will be gone when the blueman update is stable)
1.5M asunder
1.5M xarchiver
1.4M xfce4-clipman-plugin
1.3M iok
1.1M ristretto
955k pragha
690k galcultor
529K xfce4-dict + -plugin
518k xfce4-notes-plugin
466k xfce4-mixer (we would need to package the panel plugin separate and
make it launch pavucontrol)
396k epdfview
226k setroubleshoot
187k catfish
Conclusion:
* Xfce components are small, it does not make sense to remove any
of them. The only exception is xfce4-icon-theme.
* The killer is cheese. It's not only the the gnome-desktop3
problem I explained earlier, but also that it uses gstreamer
1.0. This means we would install two complete gstreamer stacks
or we would have to build xfce4-mixer, pragha and parole and
with gstreamer 1.0, too. Not sure if this is already possible.
* Removing midori or lifearea doesn't save much space, but
removing both of them makes a huge difference because we don't
need webkitgtk.
Suggestions:
1. Drop xfce4-icon-theme, it's broken anyway. I suggest to mark it
as "optional" in comps so it no longer gets installed by default
(and on the spin).
2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly notice
it.
3. Drop cheese, at least if we cannot get gnome-desktop3 split up.
xfce4-icon-theme and claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter will not help
us much, but cheese alone could do the trick.
4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori only
makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
Additional packages:
There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is no
ifconfig. It's only 294k.
2. I's like to see the new mousepad version in the spin, but
unfortunately it adds another 4.1 through it's dependency to
gtksourceview2. leafpad on the other hand is only 322k.
I suggest to first discuss this a little here on this list and once we
have agreed on something, we'll move forward with the bug at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=853590
Best regards,
Christoph
_______________________________________________
xfce mailing list
xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
The following packages sould go IMHO.
78M cheese
61M firefox (xulrunner)
14M claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter (bogofilter, gsl, atlas)
6.3M transmission
1.3M iok
Midori should fulfill the browser need on a livecd, after installation
people can install firefox or chrome, if they want another browser.
cheese is just to big for a livecd, for a a webcam app, if people do an
installation, they can add it if they want to.
At bittorrent client is not very usefull on live cd :)
An onscreen keyboard is not used very often .
Tim
7:54 a.m.
On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:29:44 +0200
"tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com" <tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Christoph Wickert <
christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> currently the Xfce spin is overweight, at least for x86_64. It's 726M,
> that is 30M more than i686, but this seems normal. That means that we
> need to find a way to save 26M.
>
> First thing that comes to my mind are the gnome packages we ship:
> # rpm -qa --qf %{NAME}-%{VERSION}-%{VERSION}\\n| grep gnome | sort
> desktop-backgrounds-gnome-18.0.0-18.0.0
> gnome-bluetooth-libs-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-desktop3-3.6.0.1-3.6.0.1
> gnome-icon-theme-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-icon-theme-legacy-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-icon-theme-symbolic-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-python2-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-python2-bonobo-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-python2-canvas-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-python2-desktop-2.32.0-2.32.0
> gnome-python2-gconf-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-python2-gnome-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-python2-gnomekeyring-2.32.0-2.32.0
> gnome-python2-gnomevfs-2.28.1-2.28.1
> gnome-session-3.6.0-3.6.0
> gnome-themes-2.32.0-2.32.0
> gnome-themes-standard-3.6.0.2-3.6.0.2
> gnome-vfs2-2.24.4-2.24.4
> gnome-video-effects-0.4.0-0.4.0
> imsettings-gnome-1.3.1-1.3.1
> libgnome-2.32.1-2.32.1
> libgnomecanvas-2.30.3-2.30.3
> libgnomekbd-3.6.0-3.6.0
> libgnome-keyring-3.6.0-3.6.0
> libgnomeui-2.24.5-2.24.5
> libopenraw-gnome-0.0.8-0.0.8
> polkit-gnome-0.105-0.105
> spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome-17.92.0-17.92.0
>
> Next I investigated their dependencies. First is the package name and
> then what pulls it in. Dependencies are marked with -> while a colon
> indicates a new package or dependency chain:
> * desktop-backgrounds-gnome: system-backgrounds-gnome (virtual
> provides of spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome) -> gnome-desktop3
> -> cheese
> * gnome-bluetooth-libs: nm-connection-editor -> anaconda and
> NetworkManager
> * gnome-desktop3: cheese (it only requires libgnome-desktop3)
> * gnome-icon-theme: system-config-printer, gnome-themes-standard
> -> gnome-desktop3 -> cheese, nm-connection-editor,
> network-manager-applet, gnome-themes
> * gnome-icon-theme-legacy: libxfcegui4, ibus-gtk2
> * gnome-icon-theme-symbolic: anaconda-18.8-2.fc18.i686
> * gnome-keyring
> * gnome-python2: gnome-python2-*
> * gnome-python2-bonobo: blueman -> dbus-bluez-pin-helper (virtual
> provides) -> bluez
> * gnome-python2-canvas: gnome-python2-bonobo -> blueman,
> system-config-date -> firstboot, gnome-python2-gnome ->
> gnome-python2-desktop -> gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
> system-config-printer
> * gnome-python2-desktop: ... (see above) -> system-config-printer
> * gnome-python2-gconf: blueman
> * gnome-python2-gnome: blueman
> * gnome-python2-gnomekeyring: system-config-printer
> * gnome-python2-gnomevfs: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
> * gnome-session: blueman (update without this dep is pending)
> * gnome-themes: fedora-icon-theme
> * gnome-themes-standard: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
> * gnome-vfs2: gnome-python2-gnomevfs -> blueman
> * gnome-video-effects: cheese
> * imsettings-gnome: ibus
> * libgnome: gnome-python2-bonobo, gnome-python2-gnome, libgnomeui,
> libbonoboui -> blueman, bluez
> * libgnomecanvas: gnome-python2-canvas (see above)
> * libgnomekbd: ibus, anaconda
> * libgnome-keyring: gnome-python2-gnomekeyring ->
> system-config-printer
> * libgnomeui: gnome-python2-gnome -> blueman
> * libopenraw-gnome: ristretto and tumbler
> * polkit-gnome: we use this one
> * spherical-cow-backgrounds-gnome: gnome-desktop3 -> cheese
>
> Observations:
> * As for the libraries, there is nothing we can do. They are not
> big either.
> * Same goes for the gnome-python2-* packages. Most of them are
> required by blueman or by system-config-* stuff. blueman adds
> ~23M (installed size, not iso size), but compared to
> gnome-bluetooth and it's dependencies, it is still good (~130M!)
> * gnome-desktop3 is big and has a lot of deps (themes!), while we
> only need the libgnome-desktop-3 for cheese. That's why I filed
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=693545 but I don't
> think it will be fixed, at least not in time for F18.
> * libxfcegui4 depdends on gnome-icon-theme-legacy. This is a
> workaround to prevent missing icons (#647734 and #650504). The
> legacy package depends on gnome-icon-theme and only provides
> symlinks from the old icon names to new freedesktop.org names.
> Unfortunately Xfce still hardcodes a lot of old names, even in
> 4.10. We need to work with the Xfce developers to fix this for
> Xfce 4.12 and then we can remove this ugly dependency. It's
> definitely too late to do this for F18 now - unless somebody has
> time to look into this.
> * We only have gnome-themes in the spin because it is a dependency
> of fedora-icon-theme. And this is weird: The Fedora theme
> inherits the 'Mist', which is part of gnome-themes. We could
> make two separate packages mist-icon-theme and crux-icon-theme,
> but I wonder if fedora-icon-theme should inherit 'Mist' in first
> place. AFAIK GNOME now now uses gnome-icon-theme.
>
> Next I looked how much space we could save if we remove packages. I
> tested this with 'yum remove --remove-leaves foo' on the live system, so
> again, this is installed size, not iso size:
> 78M cheese (gnome-desktop3 and wallpapers, gstreamer1)
> 61M firefox (xulrunner)
> 45M midori and liferea (webkitgtk)
> 33M claws-mail and plugins
> 33M pidgin
> 33M gnumeric
> 32M abiword
> 23M blueman
> 14M claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter (bogofilter, gsl, atlas)
> 14M abrt-desktop
> 12M geany
> 8.3M xfce4-icon-theme
> 7.8M pavucontrol
> 6.3M seahorse
> 6.3M transmission
> 5.3M xfburn
> 5.1M orage
> 4M midori
> 4.1M system-config-printer
> 3.5M remmina
> 2.7M lifearea
> 2.5M xfce4-screenshooter
> 2.2M parole
> 1.6M gnome-session (will be gone when the blueman update is stable)
> 1.5M asunder
> 1.5M xarchiver
> 1.4M xfce4-clipman-plugin
> 1.3M iok
> 1.1M ristretto
> 955k pragha
> 690k galcultor
> 529K xfce4-dict + -plugin
> 518k xfce4-notes-plugin
> 466k xfce4-mixer (we would need to package the panel plugin separate and
> make it launch pavucontrol)
> 396k epdfview
> 226k setroubleshoot
> 187k catfish
>
> Conclusion:
> * Xfce components are small, it does not make sense to remove any
> of them. The only exception is xfce4-icon-theme.
> * The killer is cheese. It's not only the the gnome-desktop3
> problem I explained earlier, but also that it uses gstreamer
> 1.0. This means we would install two complete gstreamer stacks
> or we would have to build xfce4-mixer, pragha and parole and
> with gstreamer 1.0, too. Not sure if this is already possible.
> * Removing midori or lifearea doesn't save much space, but
> removing both of them makes a huge difference because we don't
> need webkitgtk.
>
> Suggestions:
> 1. Drop xfce4-icon-theme, it's broken anyway. I suggest to mark it
> as "optional" in comps so it no longer gets installed by default
> (and on the spin).
> 2. Drop claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter, people will hardly notice
> it.
> 3. Drop cheese, at least if we cannot get gnome-desktop3 split up.
> xfce4-icon-theme and claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter will not help
> us much, but cheese alone could do the trick.
> 4. Get rid of one browser, either firefox or midori. midori only
> makes sense if we also remove lifearea.
>
> Additional packages:
> There are two more packages I'd like to see in the spin.
> 1. For some reason, net-tools doesn't get installed, so there is no
> ifconfig. It's only 294k.
> 2. I's like to see the new mousepad version in the spin, but
> unfortunately it adds another 4.1 through it's dependency to
> gtksourceview2. leafpad on the other hand is only 322k.
>
> I suggest to first discuss this a little here on this list and once we
> have agreed on something, we'll move forward with the bug at
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=853590
>
> Best regards,
> Christoph
>
> _______________________________________________
> xfce mailing list
> xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
>
The following packages sould go IMHO.
78M cheese
61M firefox (xulrunner)
14M claws-mail-plugins-bogofilter (bogofilter, gsl, atlas)
6.3M transmission
1.3M iok
Midori should fulfill the browser need on a livecd, after installation
people can install firefox or chrome, if they want another browser.
cheese is just to big for a livecd, for a a webcam app, if people do an
installation, they can add it if they want to.
At bittorrent client is not very usefull on live cd :)
An onscreen keyboard is not used very often .
Tim
An onscreen keyboard is an absolute requirement for those who need it.
If the individual trying to see what's new can't access the cd, what
good is it? Doesn't that say to that individual "go find a cd you can
use, and forget using fedora".
--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
9:22 a.m.
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Charlie Kravetz
<cjk(a)teamcharliesangels.com>wrote:
An onscreen keyboard is an absolute requirement for those who need it.
If the individual trying to see what's new can't access the cd, what
good is it? Doesn't that say to that individual "go find a cd you can
use, and forget using fedora".
I am not sure what the use case for on screen keyboard is (Some kind of
tablet maybe), but not many people are using a LiveCD for there every day
work.
I will normally be used for testing, showcasing or for doing a fast XFCE
install, and when installed, you can install the application to fit your
needs.
A LiveCD has limited storage and will not fit every need out there, but I
don't think it will scare people away from using XCFE or Fedora, because
the liveCD don't have and
onscreen keyboard, but it is only 1.4M, so it is not a big deal to leave
it on the LiveCD.
Tim
9:44 a.m.
On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:22:29 +0200
"tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com" <tim.lauridsen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Charlie Kravetz
<cjk(a)teamcharliesangels.com>wrote:
>
> An onscreen keyboard is an absolute requirement for those who need it.
> If the individual trying to see what's new can't access the cd, what
> good is it? Doesn't that say to that individual "go find a cd you can
> use, and forget using fedora".
>
>
I am not sure what the use case for on screen keyboard is (Some kind of
tablet maybe), but not many people are using a LiveCD for there every day
work.
I will normally be used for testing, showcasing or for doing a fast XFCE
install, and when installed, you can install the application to fit your
needs.
A LiveCD has limited storage and will not fit every need out there, but I
don't think it will scare people away from using XCFE or Fedora, because
the liveCD don't have and
onscreen keyboard, but it is only 1.4M, so it is not a big deal to leave
it on the LiveCD.
Tim
For those who can not use a hardware keyboard, an onscreen keyboard is
an absolute necessity. They may not be able to use the hardware
keyboard, but can use a mouse, trackball, or other input device.
Without the onscreen keyboard, they can not use the cd, nor run the
installer.
--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
9:30 a.m.
On 07/10/12 13:54, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
An onscreen keyboard is an absolute requirement for those who need it.
If the individual trying to see what's new can't access the cd, what
good is it? Doesn't that say to that individual "go find a cd you can
use, and forget using fedora".
I would would take the opposite view,
Most tablets run arm, from Fedora POV fledgling.
For PC's without a touch screen, it's pointless.
--
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"
9:44 a.m.
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:30:21 +0100
Frank Murphy <frankly3d(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 07/10/12 13:54, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
>
> An onscreen keyboard is an absolute requirement for those who need it.
> If the individual trying to see what's new can't access the cd, what
> good is it? Doesn't that say to that individual "go find a cd you can
> use, and forget using fedora".
>
I would would take the opposite view,
Most tablets run arm, from Fedora POV fledgling.
For PC's without a touch screen, it's pointless.
For those who can not use a hardware keyboard, an onscreen keyboard is
an absolute necessity. They may not be able to use the hardware
keyboard, but can use a mouse, trackball, or other input device.
Without the onscreen keyboard, they can not use the cd, nor run the
installer.
--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
9:57 a.m.
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:51:57 +0100
Frank Murphy <frankly3d(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 07/10/12 15:44, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
>
> For those who can not use a hardware keyboard,
Examples Please.
Please look up physical disability, no use of fingers.
--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
10:04 a.m.
On 07/10/12 15:57, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:51:57 +0100
Frank Murphy <frankly3d(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/10/12 15:44, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
>>
>> For those who can not use a hardware keyboard,
>
> Examples Please.
>
>
Please look up physical disability, no use of fingers.
I have arthrisit in the hands.
Still use a keyboard with one finger.
--
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"
10:05 a.m.
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:51:57 +0100
Frank Murphy <frankly3d(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 07/10/12 15:44, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
>
> For those who can not use a hardware keyboard,
Examples Please.
Stephen Hawkins
--
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
10:34 a.m.
On 7 October 2012 09:05, Charlie Kravetz <cjk(a)teamcharliesangels.com> wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:51:57 +0100
Frank Murphy <frankly3d(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/10/12 15:44, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
> >
> > For those who can not use a hardware keyboard,
>
> Examples Please.
>
>
Stephen Hawkins
Before we go much further in the examples of the ultimate.. let us
ground ourselves in what the xfce spin is for. It is not meant to be a
100% solution for 100% of the audience. It is meant to be a 60%-80%
solution for enough of the audience that they have an idea of what it
is possible for and then can expand from there. That doesn't mean that
an on-screen keyboard etc isn't something we should shoot for in
that.. but that it is neither here nor there.
And as much as I like Stephen Hawkings... he won't be using an
onscreen keyboard due to the fact that his Cerebal Palsy has gotten to
the point where it is a custom hardware device that does his
communicating for him
--
Stephen J Smoogen.
"Don't derail a useful feature for the 99% because you're not in it."
Linus Torvalds
"Years ago my mother used to say to me,... Elwood, you must be oh
so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I
recommend pleasant. You may quote me." —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
4191
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24 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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Charlie Kravetz -
Christoph Wickert -
Dan Weese -
Frank Murphy -
Kevin Fenzi -
Martin Sourada -
Sergio Cipolla -
Stephen John Smoogen -
Tim Lauridsen