Hi, As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors. For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week. But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors. For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week. But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
-- Regards, Susmit.
Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
Sorry, but I missed the point.
Waiting for an answer
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote:
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors. For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week. But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
-- Regards, Susmit.
Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
No, am talking about report from exsisting ambassadors on what they are doing.
Sorry, but I missed the point.
Waiting for an answer
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
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On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote:
Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a given time period.
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote:
Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a given time period.
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
--
We have: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/ReportingGuidelines
I kind of got the drift we would be "reporting" to a certain group of people for evaluation, but your idea sounds better
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, David Nalley david@gnsa.us wrote:
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote:
Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a given time period.
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
--
We have: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/ReportingGuidelines
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2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins unidentified221@gmail.com:
I kind of got the drift we would be "reporting" to a certain group of people for evaluation, but your idea sounds better
No...if we have the reports, it will be open to all...public reports. May be we can do it under our respective homepage, or under some kind of publicly accessible infrastructure.
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them are inactive or pseudo active.
There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.
This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their locality.
Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to lists.
So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as Ambassadors.
How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.
This way we may have more data and better handling of things.
Thanks.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them are inactive or pseudo active.
Doing this on a regular basis would provide everyone with an idea of what has been happening around the world within a time snapshot.
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them are inactive or pseudo active.
Doing this on a regular basis would provide everyone with an idea of what has been happening around the world within a time snapshot.
If there is a template to follow in each ambassador page that require periodically to be updated... it will show right away if he or she is active or not. For example if you have a time line on your activities, it will show your last activities, and also may show for how long an ambassador has been dormant. It is a bit of work, but it will help keep track of things.
what do you mean pseudo-active? On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:53 PM, susmit shannigrahi < thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com> wrote:
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them are inactive or pseudo active.
There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.
This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their locality.
Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to lists.
So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as Ambassadors.
How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.
This way we may have more data and better handling of things.
Thanks.
Regards, Susmit.
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2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins unidentified221@gmail.com:
what do you mean pseudo-active?
For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a Fedora Event.
This is sad, but it just happened.
Oh....well i've only recently just joined Fedora as a Ambassador, so I havent gotten any emails about a Fedora Event in my area.
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:07 PM, susmit shannigrahi < thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins unidentified221@gmail.com:
what do you mean pseudo-active?
For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a Fedora Event.
This is sad, but it just happened.
-- Regards, Susmit.
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On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:07 PM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins unidentified221@gmail.com:
what do you mean pseudo-active?
For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a Fedora Event.
This is sad, but it just happened.
All this rings a bell regarding ambassador page template (or templates) to help organize personal information in a more coherent way. When you see one ambassador page and then see another, ther are time that you can not relate the info. Let alone those pages that are almost empty. I followed the template discussion, but I can't recall a conclusion on that topic. There are also ambassador listed that haven't created their page. They are highlighted in red, some of them have more that two month old without taking care of this duty.
I have been tracking my activities on my page. I have created an orderly account but without aesthetically considerations. I don't know if that example may help Susmit ideas.
Best regards
All this rings a bell regarding ambassador page template (or templates) to help organize personal information in a more coherent way. When you see one ambassador page and then see another, ther are time that you can not relate the info. Let alone those pages that are almost empty. I followed the template discussion, but I can't recall a conclusion on that topic.
There was not!!! I guess we need to automate the new home page creation, so that whenever someone is approved, the page is automatically created.
There are also ambassador listed that haven't created their page. They are highlighted in red, some of them have more that two month old without taking care of this duty.
I shall work on this homeless ambassador thing in our next meeting. Thanks for raising this.
I have been tracking my activities on my page. I have created an orderly account but without aesthetically considerations. I don't know if that example may help Susmit ideas.
This is exactly what I am trying to say. Thanks for it. I shall make it a point of reference. :)
Best regards
-- Neville https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v Linux User # 473217
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
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On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:37 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins unidentified221@gmail.com:
what do you mean pseudo-active?
For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a Fedora Event.
This is sad, but it just happened.
hi,
How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/ helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging etc?
eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going to be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity?
I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if this is to be implemented.
regards,
Ankur
hi,
How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/ helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging etc?
No, we are taking about the jobs ambassadors are supposed to do.
eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going to be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity?
I guess an ambassador may be a packager, but that is not the job *as* an ambassador. If you are an ambassador, your role is clearly defined here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors#Contributing_roles_in_the_Ambassad...
Someone may be very good in packaging, coding or any other job, but that does not make someone a good ambassador as well.
The above link will be a good example which are the areas ambassadors should focus. But an ambassador must not be limited to that only.
I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if this is to be implemented.
regards,
Ankur
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On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 12:38 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
hi,
How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/ helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging etc?
No, we are taking about the jobs ambassadors are supposed to do.
eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going to be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity?
I guess an ambassador may be a packager, but that is not the job *as* an ambassador. If you are an ambassador, your role is clearly defined here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors#Contributing_roles_in_the_Ambassad...
Someone may be very good in packaging, coding or any other job, but that does not make someone a good ambassador as well.
The above link will be a good example which are the areas ambassadors should focus. But an ambassador must not be limited to that only.
I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if this is to be implemented.
regards,
Ankur
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hi,
Okay.. I understand it now.. Thanks for the clarification..
regards,
Ankur
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi < thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com> wrote:
/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them are inactive or pseudo active.
There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.
This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their locality.
Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to lists.
So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as Ambassadors.
How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.
This way we may have more data and better handling of things.
Thanks.
Regards, Susmit.
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Thats a really nice idea. Will help a lot in getting things done and spreading fedora.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 1:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors. For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week. But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
Hi Susmit. I would like to see this discussion broadened to include FAmSCo and ambassadors from areas like North America who I don't think have participated in this discussion up to now.
From the discussion I've seen here it seems the impetus for this is to
fix a small number of situations where an ambassador perhaps did not perform expected duties, especially troubling when it comes to ignoring a request from the broader community. In North America I think there is a weakness in that it is hard for the broader community to even figure out who to contact within Fedora about whether Fedora would like to participate in an event. These inquiries when they come seem to almost always get redirected to the ambassadors group from someone else who was contacted first. I think it might be good to have these sorts of contacts be made to the larger group of ambassadors so no one falls through the cracks.
I am hesitant to endorse monthly reporting of routine contributions. While I see the motivation is good for asking for this I worry that creating a burden for all those who do contribute to find out who doesn't contribute isn't really fair to those who are contributing. If we make being an ambassador too much like having a paid job (without the pay) there may be unexpected negative outcomes. In order for this reporting to be useful in determining who is and who isn't contributing opens up a can of worms as well. It requires monitoring the data, making judgments about it, taking actions which I presume are punitive in nature against those deemed to be not contributing.
I will add that when FAmNA was reborn we tried to contact every ambassador then listed for North America and the response rate was very disappointing. Most did not respond at all to our inquiries and encouragement that they join in the reorganization efforts. So we felt the sting of what appears to be large numbers of people listed as ambassadors who didn't even return an email. I can support the desire to clean up things some so when a visitor comes to the wiki and finds an ambassador they can at least expect a reply to an email. But I would rather add the burden to those who seem to have left the program rather than add it to those who are busy promoting Fedora now.
Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?
Thanks for bringing up one option we have Susmit. This is a festering problem that is only going to get worse the longer we ignore it.
John
How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number of points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out. Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my two cents is still two cents :D
I don't really like the idea of a points system for events. I'm currently attending college at Sam Houston State University which is where I do majority of my ambassador work, trying to get my fellow computer science students involved, get faculty involved, even working towards getting the computer science department to fund some open source development and the work I do won't exactly rank very high on a points system because I'm not able to make it to thinks like fosdem and fudcon due to financial limitations.
I also agree with inode0 in a big way. I work full time, I'm a full time college student, I'm a fedora package maintainer, I'm a fedora ambassador, and outside that I try to have some interaction with the real world. Adding mandatory monthly reporting to my list in order to prove or disprove contributions that I have or have not done will honestly be discouraging and a big burden for my already lacking free time.
Just my thoughts.
-Adam
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Heherson Pagcaliwagan azneita@fedoraproject.org wrote:
How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number of points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out. Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my two cents is still two cents :D
-- Heherson Pagcaliwagan http://project.azneita.org
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I don't really like the idea of a points system for events.
Neither do I.
I'm currently attending college at Sam Houston State University which is where I do majority of my ambassador work, trying to get my fellow computer science students involved, get faculty involved, even working towards getting the computer science department to fund some open source development and the work I do won't exactly rank very high on a points system because I'm not able to make it to thinks like fosdem and fudcon due to financial limitations.
How do you conclude that attending Events make contribution better than what you do? As an ambassador, I believe your work is great!!! My point is not having category system in Ambassadors.
Point is to let the world know that ambassadors are reliable person, one can atleast have a proper information or pointer to informations from them.
If someone is unable to do even that, (replying to mails, pointing to wiki or mailing lists) it will be better not to have them as ambassador. And this is just happening.
I also agree with inode0 in a big way. I work full time, I'm a full time college student, I'm a fedora package maintainer, I'm a fedora ambassador, and outside that I try to have some interaction with the real world. Adding mandatory monthly reporting to my list in order to prove or disprove contributions that I have or have not done will honestly be discouraging and a big burden for my already lacking free time.
Monthly report was just a suggestion to get the conversation going. It is not that I insist on that only. If we get some other way which works, I am fine with that too..
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
Monthly report was just a suggestion to get the conversation going. It is not that I insist on that only. If we get some other way which works, I am fine with that too..
-- Regards, Susmit.
I feel that if someone is too busy to report means that probably is overdoing his or her contribution to the project. Peak contributions are not sustainable on the long run. I am not advocate for monthly formal reports, but some sort of report may be good.
I think that will be good to have a better system that helps purge "dead" people. The low barrier entry allows many people to be enlisted and it is good. The problem is that a lot of people get in, but there is no way out. If the person does not take care to tell his or her inactivity in the personal page, there is no other way to tell. Worst when the just go away without telling.
Take the example of Central America, there are ambassadors listed for Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama for more than two months and they haven't created their page. I can tell because I checked for it when I joined free media program by the end of November 2008. There will be a Central American FOSS gathering coming on June 2009 and I can not contact them.
At the end of the year we can show statistics of Ambassadors growing, but aren't real because there is no system to trim down the numbers.
I feel that there is need to tackle the issue of "dead" people. Reports are good but, I may think of that as a suggestion more than a request. I don't mind low activity ambassadors.
I have write a lot... my two cents... what others have to said?
I feel that there is need to tackle the issue of "dead" people. Reports are good but, I may think of that as a suggestion more than a request. I don't mind low activity ambassadors.
Exactly. I/we have no issues with low activity ambassadors, whatever little someone's contribution is, it is still worth counting.
What matters is that we *must* get rid of our *dead* ambassadors first.
I guess that will be a reasonable chunk.
Take the example of Central America, there are ambassadors listed for Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama for more than two months and they haven't created their page. I can tell because I checked for it when I joined free media program by the end of November 2008. There will be a Central American FOSS gathering coming on June 2009 and I can not contact them.
IIRC, when Joerg contacted mewhen I applied to be an Ambassador, one of the items of the list of things he asked me to do was to create a personal page with ways of contacting me.
Isn't that list mandatory ?
Can someone be validated as an Ambassador if he didn't complete all the steps ?
----------
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Heherson Pagcaliwagan azneita@fedoraproject.org wrote:
How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number of points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out. Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my two cents is still two cents :D
To what end?? What does it benefit me to have 5000 points, or for someone else to have 5,000,0000? Would you have us kick people out that don't maintain a certain point level?
Here is the problem that we are really trying to deal with: For better or worse we have a low barrier to entry in the Ambassadors. In many respects I think that's great, because it allows people to get involved easily. On the other hand we have these 'representatives' of Fedora who may have no prior experience with the project, perhaps even no real experience with the F/LOSS community in general. There are times (they generally follow the email threads that hit the ambassadors list every few months about including proprietary blobs in the kernel or patent encumbered media codecs in Fedora) when I think that the Ambassadors group should be something that existing contributors attain to - that after you have been known to the community and we know you will do the work that you are invited to become an ambassador and begin representing us. The rest of the time I think that the low barrier is a good thing, after all it's how I became involved with Fedora (though I had been involved with another OSS project prior to that) I was one of those 'hardly does anything' Ambassadors for a number of months at a time. I also was one of the people who once advocated for patent encumbered codecs to be included.
Am Dienstag 17 Februar 2009 15:51:50 schrieb inode0:
Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this? Thanks for bringing up one option we have Susmit. This is a festering problem that is only going to get worse the longer we ignore it.
I have not read all emails in this thread right now and posted similar intention to this topic to famsco-list before - all this reminds me to the famous active/inactive discussion we had ;) in 2007 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007- April/msg00004.html
We should notice that people like EvilBob and others, left Ambassadors because whe have no quality measures like the packagers, artwork, infra or docs where they have to proof commitment before they get sponsored. If you want that someone have to proof a real contribution before i can sponsor him, how should quality measures look like? A Ambassador should be noisy in his work, but we need to be carefull with judging the work of our not so noisy fellows, we should offer them our help in form of mentoring and leave them alone, if they do not want our help - as long as they make no harm to the project or the reputation of other Ambassadors. We have many glorious examples how valuable contribution within Ambassador Group can look like and i understand that all hard working Ambassadors are annoyed if they did not get help from Ambassadors around there regional Area.
But what is our real goal? We should not waste our Power with hunting inactive Ambassadors, lets put this energy in better mentoring and better tools to increase our quality.
CU Joerg
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?
Absolutely, I've just wrote about this and I receive an answer that helped me figuring out how the discussion is evolving.
I think a template is a good thing if someone needs it. From my POV I could say that if someone volunteer to create this one, he/she will be welcomed, BTW, I'm sure everyone should be free to use it or no. Why?
I think each of us has his own background and we use to work in different way, so I think, in order to simplify the work, we have to let people be free to use or not a "possible" template. Then, if someone will need a scheme/template to report his/her activity he/she could use the template and the other one could be able to continue using M-L, blog posts and so on.
I'm sure this could be a really interesting way to face different demands, isn't it?
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote:
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?
Absolutely, I've just wrote about this and I receive an answer that helped me figuring out how the discussion is evolving.
I think a template is a good thing if someone needs it. From my POV I could say that if someone volunteer to create this one, he/she will be welcomed, BTW, I'm sure everyone should be free to use it or no. Why?
I think each of us has his own background and we use to work in different way, so I think, in order to simplify the work, we have to let people be free to use or not a "possible" template. Then, if someone will need a scheme/template to report his/her activity he/she could use the template and the other one could be able to continue using M-L, blog posts and so on.
I'm sure this could be a really interesting way to face different demands, isn't it?
Oh, yes, as a voluntary model for activity reporting this would be fine. My question, which wasn't clear enough, was about how to deal with ambassadors listed on our wiki who won't even respond to other ambassadors who contact them? It seems quite a few of us view this as a problem that can only get worse and it is important that when someone seeks out an ambassador for help or guidance on the wiki that they find someone willing and eager to provide assistance.
While I know you have worked on similar questions in the past it might be time to revisit those in this one confined area. Without necessarily considering ambassador group membership, can we find a way to make the wiki's list of ambassadors a more useful and effective way for the public and Fedora community members to contact ambassadors for whatever reason? Some great ideas are popping up about this now.
John
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:31 AM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
<My question, which wasn't clear enough, was about how to deal
with ambassadors listed on our wiki who won't even respond to other ambassadors who contact them? It seems quite a few of us view this as a problem that can only get worse and it is important that when someone seeks out an ambassador for help or guidance on the wiki that they find someone willing and eager to provide assistance.
The goals between Membership and Mentoring initiative is to help solving this lack, working with new Ambassadors and create a direct relation between the Project and the new members.
While I know you have worked on similar questions in the past it might be time to revisit those in this one confined area. Without necessarily considering ambassador group membership, can we find a way to make the wiki's list of ambassadors a more useful and effective way for the public and Fedora community members to contact ambassadors for whatever reason? Some great ideas are popping up about this now.
John
Great question. This is a quite complicate issue, we have first of all to consider what could be public and what couldn't be.
If you take a look at Privacy policy (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy), this is the possible usage of personal informations:
| Fedora uses the personal information you provide to: | | * create and maintain your accounts; | * answer your questions; | * send you information; | * for research activities, including the production of statistical reports (such aggregated information is not used to contact the subjects of the report); | * send you surveys.
I'm not a lawyer, but I could assume that if something is not present in the list, couldn't be done without the consent of the user.
So having a only, public space with people information (without asking people to do this volunteer) isn't simple as it could be.
I want to underline that what I'm saying isn't a professional advice, just some consideration on a legal paper. Suggestions are welcome.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Francesco Ugolini francesco@ephisia.org wrote: <snip>
If you take a look at Privacy policy (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy), this is the possible usage of personal informations:
| Fedora uses the personal information you provide to: | | * create and maintain your accounts; | * answer your questions; | * send you information; | * for research activities, including the production of statistical reports (such aggregated information is not used to contact the subjects of the report); | * send you surveys.
I'm not a lawyer, but I could assume that if something is not present in the list, couldn't be done without the consent of the user.
So having a only, public space with people information (without asking people to do this volunteer) isn't simple as it could be.
I want to underline that what I'm saying isn't a professional advice, just some consideration on a legal paper. Suggestions are welcome.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
Should this means that a more inclusive document has to be accepted by ambassadors Or maybe it points to the need to a "members only pages" that will allow ambassadors to have more info regarding other ambassadors, than what will be available to the public? I just thinking out loud here.
I think the most urgent topic is to shake the tree so the "dead" leaves fall. Better if this can became a process to avoid accumulation of non relevant data. Streamlining the info, may help to figure out if more complex actions are required.
Again, I am not against an ambassador that do a little activity or do a lot but does not show it on-line. I am in favour of having a better way to get in touch with each other when it is needed.
Should be that ambassadors get a yearly reminder to refresh their membership and failing to answer that automated email within a month move you to inactive status. Failing twice delete the account. It is just an idea. The time frame may need better thinking.
Best regards.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Neville A. Cross nacross@gmail.com wrote:
Should this means that a more inclusive document has to be accepted by ambassadors Or maybe it points to the need to a "members only pages" that will allow ambassadors to have more info regarding other ambassadors, than what will be available to the public? I just thinking out loud here.
I'm just wondering if currently is possible to create a global page with all the name and details. Personal pages are made by Ambassadors themselves, this means there aren't any obstacles. My concerns were related to Ambassadors maps etc.
I think the most urgent topic is to shake the tree so the "dead" leaves fall. Better if this can became a process to avoid accumulation of non relevant data. Streamlining the info, may help to figure out if more complex actions are required.
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life. If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that, at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and, even if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not to think at the inactive side, but working improving active ambassadors experience.
Your attention to such topic underline the importance you give to the project, and, using and sharing this passion, we should create a better future for Fedora.
Just to be clear: with the new Membership Policy (see September 08 M-L archive), we have enhanced the joining process, know it would be difficult to have people that automatically fill a form, but, whoever want to became an ambassadors, should follow a process (many of us have just tried it).
Should be that ambassadors get a yearly reminder to refresh their membership and failing to answer that automated email within a month move you to inactive status. Failing twice delete the account. It is just an idea. The time frame may need better thinking.
See the considerations above. BTW, as I just said, this situation was reduced with the new Membership policies.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life. If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that, at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead* ambassadors. They are different.
I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring. I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and, eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not to think at the inactive side, but working improving active ambassadors experience.
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive. We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed, just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with their dead wiki pages.
Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does, packaging team does. So what's the problem with us? inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them unresponsive.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase rapidly in near future. I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
Thannks.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:56 PM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does, packaging team does. So what's the problem with us? inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them unresponsive.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
<snip>
Francesco said that I feel this way because I am passionate about the project. This is a good thing, but let me thinking that maybe I am a bit too much enthusiastic. Trying to encompass unresponsive (or dead) ambassadors with not kicking people out... what we need is a better way to direct people to those who do respond. The problem is I can't imagine a way of doing this without making a system that pings people. The report template make sense to show where you last drop your participation. Maybe we need some one with an esthetically appreciation to design a chronological template to brag about last stuff that they have done, then invite people to use it. Those who pick up this will more likely to be contacted as they show recent activity. Luckily this may became a common practice. I feel the urge to keep this going as the idea of ambassador template that was for having the minimal info .... never happened.
I still feel that some housekeeping will be good. But I am trying to propose a less passionate approach, trying to be half way with other perspectives. Not sure If I am making sense, or if I am attaining a middle ground.
Probably I am deflating my two cents by writing too much :)
+
susmit shannigrahi wrote:
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life. If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that, at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead* ambassadors. They are different.
I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring. I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and, eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not to think at the inactive side, but working improving active ambassadors experience.
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive. We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed, just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with their dead wiki pages.
Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does, packaging team does. So what's the problem with us? inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them unresponsive.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase rapidly in near future. I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
Thannks.
On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 12:27 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
susmit shannigrahi wrote:
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life. If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that, at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead* ambassadors. They are different.
I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring. I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and, eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not to think at the inactive side, but working improving active ambassadors experience.
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive. We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed, just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with their dead wiki pages.
Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does, packaging team does. So what's the problem with us? inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them unresponsive.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase rapidly in near future. I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
Thannks.
+ + i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead ambassadors" ...
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like this very subject is brought up at least once every calendar year. I can only speak for myself but is someone is an ambassador regardless of how active they appear to be to other ambassadors if they aren't asking for $$ or other stuff what does it matter? Does it somehow diminish your role as an ambassador? I don't think it does.
Can Karsten or Max or someone please make a goddamn decision and put this to rest once an for all and make an entry into the wiki somewhere?
-t
Tony Guntharp Co-Founder SourceForge.net fusion94@gmail.com 1 (415) 694-3732
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 21:34, Roy Ong me@royong.com wrote:
On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 12:27 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
susmit shannigrahi wrote:
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life. If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that, at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead* ambassadors. They are different.
I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring. I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and, eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not to think at the inactive side, but working improving active ambassadors experience.
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive. We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed, just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with their dead wiki pages.
Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does, packaging team does. So what's the problem with us? inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them unresponsive.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase rapidly in near future. I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
Thannks.
i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead ambassadors" ...
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Tony Guntharp fusion94@gmail.com wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like this very subject is brought up at least once every calendar year.
Correct !!!
I can only speak for myself but is someone is an ambassador regardless of how active they appear to be to other ambassadors if they aren't asking for $$ or other stuff what does it matter?
From individual point of view it does not hurt anyone. This is not
about money or godies either.
But if you think from Fedora Project's point of view, it surely hurts Fedora's prospect of getting spread. Also it gets bad reputation of inactivity and incoordination to the project.
Does it somehow diminish your role as an ambassador? I don't think it does.
No it does not. But as I said earlier, I am not concerned about myself. I am concerned about Fedora.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Roy Ong me@royong.com wrote:
i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead ambassadors" ...
I haven't referred to them as "dead" ambassadors but the ambassadors we are talking about are ambassadors who don't respond to email when they are contacted via their ambassador wiki links. All I am in favor of is removing the wiki links to them, not removing them as ambassadors as they may well be doing other ambassador activities.
We simply don't want to frustrate people who are trying to contact us via wiki links, which is one common way for people both inside the Fedora community and outside to try to contact us. We also don't want to miss important opportunities for Fedora which now happens when those contacted don't respond to inquiries.
John
On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 23:43 -0600, inode0 wrote:
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Roy Ong me@royong.com wrote:
i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead ambassadors" ...
I haven't referred to them as "dead" ambassadors but the ambassadors we are talking about are ambassadors who don't respond to email when they are contacted via their ambassador wiki links. All I am in favor of is removing the wiki links to them, not removing them as ambassadors as they may well be doing other ambassador activities.
We simply don't want to frustrate people who are trying to contact us via wiki links, which is one common way for people both inside the Fedora community and outside to try to contact us. We also don't want to miss important opportunities for Fedora which now happens when those contacted don't respond to inquiries.
John
i'll agree on that. responding to an email and keeping the wiki updated with a valid email address is the least that one should do.
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:56 AM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead* ambassadors. They are different.
I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring. I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
If someone want to leave the project he/she has to communicate to Membership Administrators (and then FAmSCo) and he/she will be removed, but with a specific request of the person.
The big problem is how we can understand if a person is inactive or dead. I know it seems a stupid question, at the end when we use the term inactive we don't talk about people that haven't do anything for an x period, but generally who isn't active.
I think we have to think at the problem from the positive side. Who is active? I just answered the question in my previous mail. Who is inactive? Simply who isn't active, and the community in the last years clearly express the will that we need to focus on active community. A person isn't recoginzed simply by being member Ambassadors Account System group and having a wiki page: an Ambassador is a person that do something (from the smallest to the biggest activity) and do this for the benefit of all community.
From my side, it would be difficult to decide who could be considered
dead or inactive. If someone think that he/she isn't able to do something for Fedora (in Ambassadors Project), he/she has to take on his/her own the decision to remove him/herself.
To be sincere a year ago I had a different vision, but sharing with community opinions I understand the important principle that we have to start from the most important side: the active one, working, that's for sure, inviting "inactive" people joining our initiative, suggesting ideas to make them again active etc.
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive. We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed, just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with their dead wiki pages.
It's simple to understand who is active, I just said this. You can simply see who is reporting about events/initiative, who is involved in discussion in the list/IRC and who is organizing small initiative in his city/neighbourhood or simply talk with people around him about Fedora. From the last point I agree it's difficult to measure this, but this is the primary reason I think we shouldn't think to give a person active or inactive status.
Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody helped us", I feel bad.
Maybe it could be usefull, with the acceptance of the people (due to privacy policy concern), creating a page with a contact list.
Ambassador "job" is a wide range "job": many people aren't directly involved in discussion in the list, but they are doing a big an precious job. The big problem is that it's not simple to verify this phenomenon: I agree if someone tell me to think about a solution for really small initiative reporting, but, as it happened one year, or more, ago, I learned that an Ambassador from a small country (take a look at the M-L) wasn't able to connect due to a concrete lack of technology: from a outer POV everyone could think he was inactive, but from a inner POV he was active.
I think the idea someone expressed in the previous posts, to have a page could work, but each person would personally have to make the choice to have his name in a Contact list (please don't call it with "active" or "not inactive" tag). I'm sure this idea could be a real way to know who is available to be contacted.
From the past experience I could clearly say that just from a small
event you can simply understand who is active.
I hope to have cleared my thoughts.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
Hi All,
I am going to conduct one small seminar for Linux and Fedora at AIT Engeneering college , AHMEDABAD.
This is only limited for the college students and general Linux and Fedora only.
I am going to distribute Fedora 10 DVD free at the college. ( approximate 60 DVDs ).
It is on 21st Feb 2009.
Will submit the report.
Thanx
ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org