Despite a posting to the lists earlier in the month[1] to check our spin content, apparently no one caught the fact that there was no Moblin spin among the release candidates. At this point, we're going to have to wait for mirrors to die down before we can consider shipping a late copy.
I went to the Spins process page[2] to see where things might have gone off track, and found that the page stated that after acceptance the following step occurs:
"Spin added to a wiki page containing a table listing all of the spins for Fedora X (very similar to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/FeatureList)"
Note that no one is responsible or accountable for it happening according to the spin page, nor is the proper page listed. I made a change, so now the step reads:
"The Spins Wrangler adds the Spin to a wiki page containing a table listing all of the spins for Fedora 14 (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/14/Spins)"
This change is not a decree by any means, but it seemed like the most effective way to ensure entries get made.
I can't help but think we would have caught this problem if there were regular Spins meetings, or at least schedule items that indicate the SIG should carry out a task like checking the list of Spins before RC phase. Earlier, I brought up the idea of entering a set of schedule items. Ideally, someone on the SIG will step up to gather that list of dates for Fedora 14, and talk to John Poelstra to make sure the dates get on the release schedule. I'd also like to make sure we have a clear spins wrangler who knows the responsibilities that come with that role. That person should check over the spins process page[2] and find any places where it's not clear what the task is, and who is responsible for doing it.
So -- who wants to gather the schedule and report it to John Poelstra by around June 1?
Who is the current spins wrangler, and can that person go over the page by around the same time, and bring questions to the list?
* * * [1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2010-May/001131.html [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process
Hi Paul,
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
Despite a posting to the lists earlier in the month[1] to check our spin content, apparently no one caught the fact that there was no Moblin spin among the release candidates. At this point, we're going to have to wait for mirrors to die down before we can consider shipping a late copy.
What's the latest update of this? If the mirrors are still too busy can we at least get the torrents up and propagating out with a link on the site to them?
Peter
On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi Paul,
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
Despite a posting to the lists earlier in the month[1] to check our spin content, apparently no one caught the fact that there was no Moblin spin among the release candidates. At this point, we're going to have to wait for mirrors to die down before we can consider shipping a late copy.
What's the latest update of this? If the mirrors are still too busy can we at least get the torrents up and propagating out with a link on the site to them?
I'm working on creating the spin isos today.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 08:41:31AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi Paul,
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
Despite a posting to the lists earlier in the month[1] to check our spin content, apparently no one caught the fact that there was no Moblin spin among the release candidates. At this point, we're going to have to wait for mirrors to die down before we can consider shipping a late copy.
What's the latest update of this? If the mirrors are still too busy can we at least get the torrents up and propagating out with a link on the site to them?
I'm working on creating the spin isos today.
Thanks, Jesse.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 08:41:31AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:02 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi Paul,
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
Despite a posting to the lists earlier in the month[1] to check our spin content, apparently no one caught the fact that there was no Moblin spin among the release candidates. At this point, we're going to have to wait for mirrors to die down before we can consider shipping a late copy.
What's the latest update of this? If the mirrors are still too busy can we at least get the torrents up and propagating out with a link on the site to them?
I'm working on creating the spin isos today.
Thanks, Jesse.
WooHoo... nearly 2 days after the release and there's still no signs of the Moblin spin. I'm not going to yell and scream like some would about their spin but it would be nice to see some kind of update as to why its still missing? I don't see that request as being unreasonable after all I feel I put as much work into my spin and it can't help to feel to me a little unfair and disappointed. If it was some other spin all hell would have broken lose.
Peter
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:37:48 +0100, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
WooHoo... nearly 2 days after the release and there's still no signs of the Moblin spin. I'm not going to yell and scream like some would about their spin but it would be nice to see some kind of update as to why its still missing? I don't see that request as being unreasonable after all I feel I put as much work into my spin and it can't help to feel to me a little unfair and disappointed. If it was some other spin all hell would have broken lose.
I think that would depend on which spin. This isn't the first time something bad has happened with a spin. I don't remember hell breaking loose in the past.
Certainly it is unfortunate and disappointing that it happened.
On 05/27/2010 12:15 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:37:48 +0100, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
WooHoo... nearly 2 days after the release and there's still no signs of the Moblin spin. I'm not going to yell and scream like some would about their spin but it would be nice to see some kind of update as to why its still missing? I don't see that request as being unreasonable after all I feel I put as much work into my spin and it can't help to feel to me a little unfair and disappointed. If it was some other spin all hell would have broken lose.
I think that would depend on which spin. This isn't the first time something bad has happened with a spin. I don't remember hell breaking loose in the past.
Certainly it is unfortunate and disappointing that it happened.
I have long since advocated that spin owners be granted access in Fedora infrastructure to compose their own spins and release engineering not take this role. The current method is simply not scaling well and we have seen enough proof of that by now. Rahul
ok. Let me start off by saying that I don't know if I have time/energy to be the spins wrangler, but I will step up to do it if we can't find any other interested parties. ;)
(also note I am CC'ing John Poelstra on this email as he might have input on the schedule I talk about below).
So, I would propose we mail fedora-devel-announce with a Job posting for 'spins wrangler' and see if we get an interested party stepping up to do the job. ;) If we don't in a week, I will step up to do it.
I would also like to propose some changes to the Spins process:
Our current process deals with accepting spins and getting review and approvals, etc. Once thats done it seems like we just say "ok, you're done, thanks for the ks file" and expect everything to go great. I don't think this is fair to our users or a good idea. I would like us to add:
- each spin for the cycle MUST have a contact email(s) for maintainers of that spin so we can contact them. (We could save this in a file in spins-kickstarts, etc).
- I think we should gateway any git commits to the kickstart files to our mailing list for added visibility.
- at some points in the development cycle we should REQUIRE a email or ACK from the maintainer of each spin. "My spin composes and has been tested by me or X others to work". This would include checking on sizes, etc. I think this points are up for discussion, but It might be nice to have them at: a week before Alpha, a week before Beta, at RC time before go/nogo, etc.
- I agree we should have hard dates added of things that the spins wrangler and/or spins maintainers, and/or rel-eng need to do with spins. Here's my rough take:
2010-06-01 - week after release, nightly composes start tracking rawhide 2010-06-21 - All spins from previous cycle have updated wiki pages. 2010-07-06 - Deadline for submission of spins. 2010-07-27 - Feature Freeze/All spins known for release Wrangler updates wiki/mails rel-eng/qa. 2010-07-27 - Spins wrangler requests bugzilla components for spins. 2010-08-03 - Alpha Change deadline - Go/No go from maintainers. 2010-09-07 - Beta Change deadline - Go/No go from maintainers. 2010-10-05 - Create spins-kickstarts package for release, branch git. 2010-10-05 - Spins ks Freeze. Only approved changes allowed. 2010-10-14 - RC Composes - Go/No go from maintainers.
This is missing "Spin maintainers submit text and screenshots for spins.fedoraproject.org". When should that occur?
- I would like to have our next meeting (which would normally be tomorrow, but thats a holiday, so the following week) have a retrospective and see if there are other things we can improve.
Thoughts?
kevin
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 14:25:03 -0600, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
- I would like to have our next meeting (which would normally be tomorrow, but thats a holiday, so the following week) have a retrospective and see if there are other things we can improve.
Normally a Holiday would have been OK, but I have been sick the last three days and am just starting to get some energy back.
I would like to see some more process documentation on the spin-kickstarts stuff on when we want to branch, when repos should be changed and when new rpms should be built and how to build the rpms from the git repo. (I am already working on the latter, but didn't get much done this weekend.)
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 05/30/2010 01:25 PM Pacific Time:
ok. Let me start off by saying that I don't know if I have time/energy to be the spins wrangler, but I will step up to do it if we can't find any other interested parties. ;)
(also note I am CC'ing John Poelstra on this email as he might have input on the schedule I talk about below).
So, I would propose we mail fedora-devel-announce with a Job posting for 'spins wrangler' and see if we get an interested party stepping up to do the job. ;) If we don't in a week, I will step up to do it.
I would also like to propose some changes to the Spins process:
Our current process deals with accepting spins and getting review and approvals, etc. Once thats done it seems like we just say "ok, you're done, thanks for the ks file" and expect everything to go great. I don't think this is fair to our users or a good idea. I would like us to add:
each spin for the cycle MUST have a contact email(s) for maintainers of that spin so we can contact them. (We could save this in a file in spins-kickstarts, etc).
I think we should gateway any git commits to the kickstart files to our mailing list for added visibility.
at some points in the development cycle we should REQUIRE a email or ACK from the maintainer of each spin. "My spin composes and has been tested by me or X others to work". This would include checking on sizes, etc. I think this points are up for discussion, but It might be nice to have them at: a week before Alpha, a week before Beta, at RC time before go/nogo, etc.
I agree we should have hard dates added of things that the spins wrangler and/or spins maintainers, and/or rel-eng need to do with spins. Here's my rough take:
2010-06-01 - week after release, nightly composes start tracking rawhide 2010-06-21 - All spins from previous cycle have updated wiki pages. 2010-07-06 - Deadline for submission of spins. 2010-07-27 - Feature Freeze/All spins known for release Wrangler updates wiki/mails rel-eng/qa. 2010-07-27 - Spins wrangler requests bugzilla components for spins. 2010-08-03 - Alpha Change deadline - Go/No go from maintainers. 2010-09-07 - Beta Change deadline - Go/No go from maintainers. 2010-10-05 - Create spins-kickstarts package for release, branch git. 2010-10-05 - Spins ks Freeze. Only approved changes allowed. 2010-10-14 - RC Composes - Go/No go from maintainers.
This is missing "Spin maintainers submit text and screenshots for spins.fedoraproject.org". When should that occur?
- I would like to have our next meeting (which would normally be tomorrow, but thats a holiday, so the following week) have a retrospective and see if there are other things we can improve.
Thoughts?
kevin
I've created a formal version of this schedule here: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-spins-tasks.html
I added additional milestones for more context. Please let me know what you would like to change, add, or remove.
-------------------
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
1) When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
2) When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
3) When you plan to start test the final spins and for how long?
4) When Spins bittorrent files need to be created?
5) When final verification for final release day will be performed: --all the expected spins have been created --all the expected spins have been tested and work --bittorrent links work
6) Everything else that needs to be tracked and completed for a successful Fedora 14. --File design/artwork requests?
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 09:46:26 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
And if we are going to do official spins for alpha and beta. We didn't for F13 and I think that having people use the nightlies was better, but I think that was a last minute decision and we really didn't consider it.
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:43:35 -0500 Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 09:46:26 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
And if we are going to do official spins for alpha and beta. We didn't for F13 and I think that having people use the nightlies was better, but I think that was a last minute decision and we really didn't consider it.
I'm fine with using the nightlies.
If anyone would prefer more official images, speak up now? :)
kevin
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
- When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
Good question.
I would say this would be the latest RC that gets accepted no? So,
2010-10-14 - RC composes start The final spins would be created from whatever RC is accepted as final.
- When you plan to start test the final spins and for how long?
You mean the ones from the final freeze? Or the ones that rel-eng creates?
- When Spins bittorrent files need to be created?
Those have typically been done when rel-eng is ready. Typically the weekend before release, but it was monday (the day before release) this last time.
- When final verification for final release day will be performed: --all the expected spins have been created --all the expected spins have been tested and work --bittorrent links work
Again, we should get rel-eng input. I would say the friday before release? When RC is done? When bit links are made?
- Everything else that needs to be tracked and completed for a
successful Fedora 14. --File design/artwork requests?
Good questions. Artwork and spins.fedoraproject.org dates would be great. I guess we need to ask websites and art about what dates should be there?
kevin
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 06/10/2010 05:33 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
We might get better coverage if we explicitly specify when it it needs to happen vs. "all the time" :)
- When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
Good question.
I would say this would be the latest RC that gets accepted no? So,
2010-10-14 - RC composes start The final spins would be created from whatever RC is accepted as final.
That is followed by the hand-off to QA on 2010-10-16 and then they have a week to qualify it. This raises a couple of questions:
1) How long does it take to create the final spins? (releng)
2) How much time do you need to test them and when should testing start and end? (spins)
3) How much lead time does releng need to post the spins for GA, get the torrent files ready, etc? IOW, when does the testing of the spins need to be completed by and spins that do not work dropped for Fedora 14?
- When you plan to start test the final spins and for how long?
You mean the ones from the final freeze? Or the ones that rel-eng creates?
Asked a different way above.
- When Spins bittorrent files need to be created?
Those have typically been done when rel-eng is ready. Typically the weekend before release, but it was monday (the day before release) this last time.
I will put on the schedule for the Friday before GA.
- When final verification for final release day will be performed: --all the expected spins have been created --all the expected spins have been tested and work --bittorrent links work
Again, we should get rel-eng input. I would say the friday before release? When RC is done? When bit links are made?
- Everything else that needs to be tracked and completed for a
successful Fedora 14. --File design/artwork requests?
Good questions. Artwork and spins.fedoraproject.org dates would be great. I guess we need to ask websites and art about what dates should be there?
Yes, working with them to find out how much lead time they need is probably a great idea. Then we can add some milestones to their schedule too so they can be thinking about it and preparing in advance.
John
John Poelstra said the following on 06/16/2010 04:09 PM Pacific Time:
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 06/10/2010 05:33 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
We might get better coverage if we explicitly specify when it it needs to happen vs. "all the time" :)
- When you need Release Engineering to create the final spins?
Good question.
I would say this would be the latest RC that gets accepted no? So,
2010-10-14 - RC composes start The final spins would be created from whatever RC is accepted as final.
That is followed by the hand-off to QA on 2010-10-16 and then they have a week to qualify it. This raises a couple of questions:
How long does it take to create the final spins? (releng)
How much time do you need to test them and when should testing start
and end? (spins)
- How much lead time does releng need to post the spins for GA, get the
torrent files ready, etc? IOW, when does the testing of the spins need to be completed by and spins that do not work dropped for Fedora 14?
- When you plan to start test the final spins and for how long?
You mean the ones from the final freeze? Or the ones that rel-eng creates?
Asked a different way above.
- When Spins bittorrent files need to be created?
Those have typically been done when rel-eng is ready. Typically the weekend before release, but it was monday (the day before release) this last time.
I will put on the schedule for the Friday before GA.
- When final verification for final release day will be performed: --all the expected spins have been created --all the expected spins have been tested and work --bittorrent links work
Again, we should get rel-eng input. I would say the friday before release? When RC is done? When bit links are made?
- Everything else that needs to be tracked and completed for a
successful Fedora 14. --File design/artwork requests?
Good questions. Artwork and spins.fedoraproject.org dates would be great. I guess we need to ask websites and art about what dates should be there?
Yes, working with them to find out how much lead time they need is probably a great idea. Then we can add some milestones to their schedule too so they can be thinking about it and preparing in advance.
John
This thread appears to have died. Who is the leader of the spins sig these days and have regular meetings been re-established?
I'm concerned that if we do not set aside some time to reach a solid schedule in the next week we run the risk of repeating some of the same things that did not go well in Fedora 13.
John
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 05:56:05 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
This thread appears to have died. Who is the leader of the spins sig these days and have regular meetings been re-established?
Kevin and I seem to be reluctantly sharing that. We are trying with the meetings, but they aren't going well.
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 05:56:05 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
This thread appears to have died. Who is the leader of the spins sig these days and have regular meetings been re-established?
Kevin and I seem to be reluctantly sharing that. We are trying with the meetings, but they aren't going well.
I apologise for my lack of response. I need to reply a number of the spins email but the last 6 weeks have been crazy. I hope to be able to more active involvement come July.
Peter
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 05:56:05 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
This thread appears to have died. Who is the leader of the spins sig these days and have regular meetings been re-established?
Kevin and I seem to be reluctantly sharing that. We are trying with the meetings, but they aren't going well.
I apologise for my lack of response. I need to reply a number of the spins email but the last 6 weeks have been crazy. I hope to be able to more active involvement come July.
Peter
Yeah, same here. I've been a slacker with regard to the meetings lately. Thank you, Kevin and Bruno, for not letting this die. I'll try to do a better job here, too.
--Sebastian
spins mailing list spins@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/spins
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 16:09:00 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 06/10/2010 05:33 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
We might get better coverage if we explicitly specify when it it needs to happen vs. "all the time" :)
I'd like to see extra covverage in the one week periods before the alpha, beta and final development freezes. You kind of need to keep an eye on things the whole time, as changes in other areas of Fedora can break your spin in various ways. But the above times are good times to be doing a closer look to see if problems have cropped up.
- How long does it take to create the final spins? (releng)
I don't know the answer to this one.
- How much time do you need to test them and when should testing start
and end? (spins)
This is going to depend on the spin. I am not sure if all of the spins owners have fast links. So it would be best to figure at least a day. We haven't had mandatory confirmation required in the past. Is this something you are thinking we should do for F14?
Bruno Wolff III said the following on 06/30/2010 02:21 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 16:09:00 -0700, John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 06/10/2010 05:33 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
We might get better coverage if we explicitly specify when it it needs to happen vs. "all the time" :)
I'd like to see extra covverage in the one week periods before the alpha, beta and final development freezes. You kind of need to keep an eye on things the whole time, as changes in other areas of Fedora can break your spin in various ways. But the above times are good times to be doing a closer look to see if problems have cropped up.
- How long does it take to create the final spins? (releng)
I don't know the answer to this one.
Jesse--2 days to be safe?
- How much time do you need to test them and when should testing start
and end? (spins)
This is going to depend on the spin. I am not sure if all of the spins owners have fast links. So it would be best to figure at least a day. We haven't had mandatory confirmation required in the past. Is this something you are thinking we should do for F14?
I thought we should have had it for Fedora 12 :)
It has always bothered me we would ship something without clearly confirming and tracking whether the final product was explicitly tested.
In a perfect world I'd say a week to test. It may not take that long to do, but some people might not get to it right away.
John
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 14:41:14 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
It has always bothered me we would ship something without clearly confirming and tracking whether the final product was explicitly tested.
In a perfect world I'd say a week to test. It may not take that long to do, but some people might not get to it right away.
What is the fallback plan if an owner doesn't sign off on their spin?
Is someone else from spins supposed to do it, do we not publish a downloadable iso for that release, delay publishing the iso, publish it but then chastise the owner?
Bruno Wolff III said the following on 06/30/2010 02:55 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 14:41:14 -0700, John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
It has always bothered me we would ship something without clearly confirming and tracking whether the final product was explicitly tested.
In a perfect world I'd say a week to test. It may not take that long to do, but some people might not get to it right away.
What is the fallback plan if an owner doesn't sign off on their spin?
Is someone else from spins supposed to do it, do we not publish a downloadable iso for that release, delay publishing the iso, publish it but then chastise the owner?
(removed extraneous CCs)
To me it is just like the feature process. If the feature owner does not do their part (keep pages update, etc.) Fedora has no obligation to do theirs (advertise as part of the release, test, etc.). So if the spin owner does not sign off that it has been tested, it doesn't get released for Fedora 14 and they can try again for Fedora 15.
We'll have regular schedule reminders, etc. so none of this will be a surprise. I don't think the Spin SIG should have to cover for every spin owner that doesn't follow through.
I'm not looking to be overly harsh here. There is definitely room to help each other out, give reminders, etc., but there comes a point where is someone says they are going to be the owner of something they have to do just that. And the fact of the matter is you guys are already doing a lot already.
Thanks to you and Kevin for stepping up and helping to get things running smoothly here.
John
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 15:08:43 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
To me it is just like the feature process. If the feature owner does not do their part (keep pages update, etc.) Fedora has no obligation to do theirs (advertise as part of the release, test, etc.). So if the spin owner does not sign off that it has been tested, it doesn't get released for Fedora 14 and they can try again for Fedora 15.
We'll have regular schedule reminders, etc. so none of this will be a surprise. I don't think the Spin SIG should have to cover for every spin owner that doesn't follow through.
This will be a topic for the next meeting, but I expect we will recommend requiring a confirmation that spin owners have tested the version of GA version of their spin before GA day. If there are problems, they try to work things out with releng to fix in time. (And maybe delay the release of that particular spin.) If there is no confirmation, then the spin is not released as an iso, though the ks file would still be available for people that wanted to make their own.
We'll probably want an estimated start day and a deadline for the review. At least one reminder close the the event, and another announcing the change as well as fixing documentation.
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 06:24:34PM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 15:08:43 -0700, John Poelstra poelstra@redhat.com wrote:
To me it is just like the feature process. If the feature owner does not do their part (keep pages update, etc.) Fedora has no obligation to do theirs (advertise as part of the release, test, etc.). So if the spin owner does not sign off that it has been tested, it doesn't get released for Fedora 14 and they can try again for Fedora 15.
We'll have regular schedule reminders, etc. so none of this will be a surprise. I don't think the Spin SIG should have to cover for every spin owner that doesn't follow through.
This will be a topic for the next meeting, but I expect we will recommend requiring a confirmation that spin owners have tested the version of GA version of their spin before GA day. If there are problems, they try to work things out with releng to fix in time. (And maybe delay the release of that particular spin.) If there is no confirmation, then the spin is not released as an iso, though the ks file would still be available for people that wanted to make their own.
We'll probably want an estimated start day and a deadline for the review. At least one reminder close the the event, and another announcing the change as well as fixing documentation.
IIRC Jesse Keating from the rel-eng team sent some reminders in the F13 cycle about testing and inclusion. It would make sense for someone on the Spins SIG to consult with the rel-eng team to make sure those start and deadline days jibe with the rest of the release schedule.
Your description above that, regarding GA, sounds a lot like a "go/no-go" for spins, which I think is a very good idea. Whether or not there is a chance to release later than that is a separate issue and would also need to be discussed with the rel-eng team so that everyone's expectations are clear before we get to that point. I get the feeling you're headed in that same direction, I just wanted to call it out explicitly.
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On 6/30/10 2:41 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
Bruno Wolff III said the following on 06/30/2010 02:21 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 16:09:00 -0700, John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
Kevin Fenzi said the following on 06/10/2010 05:33 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:46:26 -0700 John Poelstrapoelstra@redhat.com wrote:
I would highly recommend considering and adding the following to enable a smoother running Fedora 14 spins cycle compared to Fedora 13:
- When testing will occur and for how long (through out)?
Yes. Thoughout.
We might get better coverage if we explicitly specify when it it needs to happen vs. "all the time" :)
I'd like to see extra covverage in the one week periods before the alpha, beta and final development freezes. You kind of need to keep an eye on things the whole time, as changes in other areas of Fedora can break your spin in various ways. But the above times are good times to be doing a closer look to see if problems have cropped up.
- How long does it take to create the final spins? (releng)
I don't know the answer to this one.
Jesse--2 days to be safe?
Yeah. It largely depends on how many spins we do and the sizes of those spins, but 2 days is a good window.
- How much time do you need to test them and when should testing start
and end? (spins)
This is going to depend on the spin. I am not sure if all of the spins owners have fast links. So it would be best to figure at least a day. We haven't had mandatory confirmation required in the past. Is this something you are thinking we should do for F14?
I thought we should have had it for Fedora 12 :)
It has always bothered me we would ship something without clearly confirming and tracking whether the final product was explicitly tested.
In a perfect world I'd say a week to test. It may not take that long to do, but some people might not get to it right away.
- -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
I wanted to do a bit more with the spin-kickstarts package. Currently the abridged schedule is: Name Start End Duration 5. Alpha Change Deadline Tue 2010-08-03 Tue 2010-08-03 0 6. Alpha Public Availability Tue 2010-08-17 Tue 2010-08-17 0 7. Beta Change Deadline Tue 2010-09-07 Tue 2010-09-07 0 8. Beta Release Public Availability Tue 2010-09-21 Tue 2010-09-21 0 9. Spins kickstart package Freeze Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 10. Create spins-kickstarts package for release and branch git Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 11. Final Change Deadline Mon 2010-10-11 Mon 2010-10-11 0 12. Final (GA) Release Tue 2010-10-26 Tue 2010-10-26 0
I'd like to change 10 to: 10. Branch spin-kickstarts and build package from new branch.
I'd like to add these steps: 5a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 7a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 12a. If branched spin-kickstarts was changed build a new version for updates.
Bruno Wolff III said the following on 06/30/2010 04:32 PM Pacific Time:
I wanted to do a bit more with the spin-kickstarts package. Currently the abridged schedule is: Name Start End Duration 5. Alpha Change Deadline Tue 2010-08-03 Tue 2010-08-03 0 6. Alpha Public Availability Tue 2010-08-17 Tue 2010-08-17 0 7. Beta Change Deadline Tue 2010-09-07 Tue 2010-09-07 0 8. Beta Release Public Availability Tue 2010-09-21 Tue 2010-09-21 0 9. Spins kickstart package Freeze Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 10. Create spins-kickstarts package for release and branch git Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 11. Final Change Deadline Mon 2010-10-11 Mon 2010-10-11 0 12. Final (GA) Release Tue 2010-10-26 Tue 2010-10-26 0
I'd like to change 10 to: 10. Branch spin-kickstarts and build package from new branch.
I'd like to add these steps: 5a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 7a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 12a. If branched spin-kickstarts was changed build a new version for updates.
Will do. I'm doing a bunch of schedule updates targeted for Friday. I'll send a new link when they are updated.
John
Bruno Wolff III said the following on 06/30/2010 04:32 PM Pacific Time:
I wanted to do a bit more with the spin-kickstarts package. Currently the abridged schedule is: Name Start End Duration 5. Alpha Change Deadline Tue 2010-08-03 Tue 2010-08-03 0 6. Alpha Public Availability Tue 2010-08-17 Tue 2010-08-17 0 7. Beta Change Deadline Tue 2010-09-07 Tue 2010-09-07 0 8. Beta Release Public Availability Tue 2010-09-21 Tue 2010-09-21 0 9. Spins kickstart package Freeze Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 10. Create spins-kickstarts package for release and branch git Tue 2010-10-05 Tue 2010-10-05 0 11. Final Change Deadline Mon 2010-10-11 Mon 2010-10-11 0 12. Final (GA) Release Tue 2010-10-26 Tue 2010-10-26 0
I'd like to change 10 to: 10. Branch spin-kickstarts and build package from new branch.
I'd like to add these steps: 5a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 7a. Build spin-kickstarts package from master. 12a. If branched spin-kickstarts was changed build a new version for updates.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-spins-tasks.html
All added/changed. Let me know what else you need and how I can help.
Still to do: 1) Include final evaluation date 2) Include testing dates 3) Include official spins creation on the releng schedule once we hear back releng.
John
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Bruno Wolff III -
Jesse Keating -
Jesse Keating -
John Poelstra -
Kevin Fenzi -
Paul W. Frields -
Peter Robinson -
Rahul Sundaram -
Sebastian Dziallas