8:43 p.m.
For those that are interested in helping with docs, manage docs are now ported over to the
Wiki, in a few parts.
https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Start%20Here
This is pretty much most of the manage, which I think should stay more or less together.
If you split things into too many Wiki pages, it's hard to absorb things via osmosis.
I would like to mix the examples in closer to the job though and incorporate more examples
throughout, so if you're a new user you don't get bored/confused and wonder what
commands you actually care about running.
https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Advanced%20Topics
For topics in Advanced Topics that already had a Wiki page, we should make sure any info
there is mentioned in those pages and then just link to them, so Advanced Topics can
eventually go away as a catch all. For instance, all the info about DHCP management
should already be covered elsewhere, but the stuff about PXE boot loop prevention does
not, so that deserves it's own page.
https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Koan
Koan's docs -- notice to understand the configuration management features that Kelsey
Hightower wrote, you have to skip between the two manages, so there are probably some
implied topics that could be created, and the existing configuration management section
could probably mention it there. That's just one of many though.
Once these get hammered out a bit I'll replace the .pod files in the docs tree to more
or less just link to the Wiki.
Thanks!
--Michael
9 a.m.
Michael DeHaaan wrote:
For those that are interested in helping with docs, manage docs are
now ported over to the Wiki, in a few parts.
https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Start%20Here
This is pretty much most of the manage, which I think should stay more
or less together. If you split things into too many Wiki pages, it's
hard to absorb things via osmosis. I would like to mix the examples in
closer to the job though and incorporate more examples throughout, so if
you're a new user you don't get bored/confused and wonder what commands
you actually care about running. [...]
Great! Thanks, Michael.
As this is a "Start here" document, it should be simple and clear, and
avoid unnecessary detail, particular in its opening stages.
I began editing it...
...but ended up almost completely rewriting the opening sections,
through to and including the opening paragraphs of "adding
distributions". The emphasis is on getting a complete beginner started
with something, anything, and avoiding unnecessary detail.
I haven't really addressed the remainder of the document; my changes in
the remainder are mostly cosmetic, improving heading/subheading
structure, etc.
Returning to "adding distributions". While the original man page had
thoroughly documented "cobbler distro ...", it hadn't (by contrast) got
a section on "cobbler import ..." at all. So I have begun to structure
this "adding distributions" sections to cover these related topics. But
I strongly suspect that most of the options for "distro" also apply to
"import", so it probably needs further restructuring to clarify this.
(By the way, more generally, I'm not yet convinced that every last
detail of every last option for every last command belongs in a "Start
here" document...)
-- David Lee
9:18 a.m.
Thanks, totally agree.
I was thinking of breaking things up into subpages. We might as well just make all these
pages link directly from User Docs and Start Here may eventually go away or just become a
subhead.
The Wiki does document cobbler import … and there are examples at the bottom in the
workflow/example section that can be merged. Since there's a Wiki page on that
though, we can just link to it.
Since the workflow for new users is…
1) edit settings
2) cobbler check … and loop until it's mostly clean ...
3) cobbler import if at all possible
4) now run commands like add/edit/etc
That to me seems to imply pages on the following should exist:
0) how we model things (already exists, probably needs cleanup)
1) cobbler settings (what's important? how do I change things?)
2) running cobbler check (just mentioning the important ones, and there are comments in
the file, what to do after editing them)
3) cobbler import (already exists)
4) editing objects
5) repository mirroring
Basically makings things more or less task oriented, routing folks through reading pages
on each of the above in order. "I know what I want to accomplish, now how do I do
it, and in what order?" Rather than burying folks under a lot of commands and
hoping they run across something they'll learn from.
Then there are a few things that probably don't have pages on them, where we could
take them off the main page too.
* power management
* PXE (boot loop prevention, menu generation, etc)
* configuration management (section exists already about puppet, but should merge in the
built-in config stuff and make easier to understand)
And some pages I think are a bit confusing already exist, but prob need cleanup to make
more sense:
* /etc/cobbler/modules.conf
* DHCP management
* DNS management (particularly hard)
* web app security choices
* triggers
* XMLRPC API (needs lots of examples, probably)
Then there are various things that don't really get documented
* what snippets ship with cobbler and why should you use them
* etc
Not all stuff we have to do now, of course, but that's sort of my take on it.
--Michael
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:00 AM, David Lee wrote:
Michael DeHaaan wrote:
> For those that are interested in helping with docs, manage docs are
> now ported over to the Wiki, in a few parts.
>
> https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Start%20Here
>
> This is pretty much most of the manage, which I think should stay more
> or less together. If you split things into too many Wiki pages, it's
> hard to absorb things via osmosis. I would like to mix the examples in
> closer to the job though and incorporate more examples throughout, so if
> you're a new user you don't get bored/confused and wonder what commands
> you actually care about running. [...]
>
Great! Thanks, Michael.
As this is a "Start here" document, it should be simple and clear, and
avoid unnecessary detail, particular in its opening stages.
I began editing it...
...but ended up almost completely rewriting the opening sections,
through to and including the opening paragraphs of "adding
distributions". The emphasis is on getting a complete beginner started
with something, anything, and avoiding unnecessary detail.
I haven't really addressed the remainder of the document; my changes in
the remainder are mostly cosmetic, improving heading/subheading
structure, etc.
Returning to "adding distributions". While the original man page had
thoroughly documented "cobbler distro ...", it hadn't (by contrast) got
a section on "cobbler import ..." at all. So I have begun to structure
this "adding distributions" sections to cover these related topics. But
I strongly suspect that most of the options for "distro" also apply to
"import", so it probably needs further restructuring to clarify this.
(By the way, more generally, I'm not yet convinced that every last
detail of every last option for every last command belongs in a "Start
here" document...)
-- David Lee
_______________________________________________
cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org (mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org)
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
9:26 a.m.
So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in my
mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome" page than
just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of the left
hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it might be
kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web ui. Even
if the links just point back to the online documentation?
just a thought.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:18, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
Thanks, totally agree.
I was thinking of breaking things up into subpages. We might as well
just make all these pages link directly from User Docs and Start Here may
eventually go away or just become a subhead.
The Wiki does document cobbler import … and there are examples at the
bottom in the workflow/example section that can be merged. Since there's
a Wiki page on that though, we can just link to it.
Since the workflow for new users is…
1) edit settings
2) cobbler check … and loop until it's mostly clean ...
3) cobbler import if at all possible
4) now run commands like add/edit/etc
That to me seems to imply pages on the following should exist:
0) how we model things (already exists, probably needs cleanup)
1) cobbler settings (what's important? how do I change things?)
2) running cobbler check (just mentioning the important ones, and there
are comments in the file, what to do after editing them)
3) cobbler import (already exists)
4) editing objects
5) repository mirroring
Basically makings things more or less task oriented, routing folks through
reading pages on each of the above in order. "I know what I want to
accomplish, now how do I do it, and in what order?" Rather than burying
folks under a lot of commands and hoping they run across something they'll
learn from.
Then there are a few things that probably don't have pages on them, where
we could take them off the main page too.
* power management
* PXE (boot loop prevention, menu generation, etc)
* configuration management (section exists already about puppet, but
should merge in the built-in config stuff and make easier to understand)
And some pages I think are a bit confusing already exist, but prob need
cleanup to make more sense:
* /etc/cobbler/modules.conf
* DHCP management
* DNS management (particularly hard)
* web app security choices
* triggers
* XMLRPC API (needs lots of examples, probably)
Then there are various things that don't really get documented
* what snippets ship with cobbler and why should you use them
* etc
Not all stuff we have to do now, of course, but that's sort of my take on
it.
--Michael
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:00 AM, David Lee wrote:
Michael DeHaaan wrote:
For those that are interested in helping with docs, manage docs are
now ported over to the Wiki, in a few parts.
https://github.com/cobbler/cobbler/wiki/Start%20Here
This is pretty much most of the manage, which I think should stay more
or less together. If you split things into too many Wiki pages, it's
hard to absorb things via osmosis. I would like to mix the examples in
closer to the job though and incorporate more examples throughout, so if
you're a new user you don't get bored/confused and wonder what commands
you actually care about running. [...]
Great! Thanks, Michael.
As this is a "Start here" document, it should be simple and clear, and
avoid unnecessary detail, particular in its opening stages.
I began editing it...
...but ended up almost completely rewriting the opening sections,
through to and including the opening paragraphs of "adding
distributions". The emphasis is on getting a complete beginner started
with something, anything, and avoiding unnecessary detail.
I haven't really addressed the remainder of the document; my changes in
the remainder are mostly cosmetic, improving heading/subheading
structure, etc.
Returning to "adding distributions". While the original man page had
thoroughly documented "cobbler distro ...", it hadn't (by contrast) got
a section on "cobbler import ..." at all. So I have begun to structure
this "adding distributions" sections to cover these related topics. But
I strongly suspect that most of the options for "distro" also apply to
"import", so it probably needs further restructuring to clarify this.
(By the way, more generally, I'm not yet convinced that every last
detail of every last option for every last command belongs in a "Start
here" document...)
-- David Lee
_______________________________________________
cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
_______________________________________________
cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
9:32 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Greg Swift <gregswift(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in
my
mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome" page than
just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of the left
hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it might be
kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web ui. Even if
the links just point back to the online documentation?
just a thought.
I had always thought of making a "stats" page, to show you the number
of systems you have, ones that are in the process of building, etc.
Alternatively, you do bring up a good point. Why don't we just bundle
the documentation with the web app? It would make people's lives
easier I think, and since it's all going on github anyway I don't
think it would be that difficult. The version of the docs that came
with the code would always be the most up to date version.
9:43 a.m.
Write a simple scraper? Yeah, if it had a link back to the Wiki at the bottom of each
page or something, that would rock. I don't want to source the Wiki source in the git
repo though, because the Wiki is much easier for people to edit on the fly.
Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com site is also at
http://github.com/cobbler and can also take pull requests, if someone with web-design
chops wants to add some better links to the docs and more impressive blingy-ness. That
would be awesome. It's about time we had a really good logo too :)
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:32 AM, James Cammarata wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Greg Swift <gregswift(a)gmail.com
(mailto:gregswift@gmail.com)> wrote:
> So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in my
> mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome" page
than
> just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of the left
> hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it might be
> kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web ui. Even if
> the links just point back to the online documentation?
>
> just a thought.
I had always thought of making a "stats" page, to show you the number
of systems you have, ones that are in the process of building, etc.
Alternatively, you do bring up a good point. Why don't we just bundle
the documentation with the web app? It would make people's lives
easier I think, and since it's all going on github anyway I don't
think it would be that difficult. The version of the docs that came
with the code would always be the most up to date version.
_______________________________________________
cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org (mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org)
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
9:49 a.m.
Greg Swift wrote:
So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in
my
mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome" page
than just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of
the left hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it
might be kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web
ui. Even if the links just point back to the online documentation?
[...]
Regarding: "Even if the links just point back to the online documentation?"
It's probably not that simple. At many sites the cobbler (web) server
may be firewalled off from the Internet. So the documentation would
need to be locally available.
Given that (in the Redhat world, at least), we already have RPMs for
"cobbler" and "cobbler-web", perhaps there should also be an RPM
"cobbler-docs". The source of its data would include pages (or
transformed pages) from the wiki; the installed destination of its data
would be appropriate points in the system's own man pages, info pages,
and website. (That, of course, is a very high-level, blue-sky,
hand-wavy, sketchy overview, deliberately avoiding fine detail at this
stage.)
-- David Lee
9:50 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 9:49 AM, David Lee <David.Lee(a)ecmwf.int> wrote:
Greg Swift wrote:
>
> So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in my
> mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome" page
than
> just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of the left
> hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it might be
> kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web ui. Even if
> the links just point back to the online documentation?
> [...]
Regarding: "Even if the links just point back to the online documentation?"
It's probably not that simple. At many sites the cobbler (web) server may
be firewalled off from the Internet. So the documentation would need to be
locally available.
Given that (in the Redhat world, at least), we already have RPMs for
"cobbler" and "cobbler-web", perhaps there should also be an RPM
"cobbler-docs". The source of its data would include pages (or transformed
pages) from the wiki; the installed destination of its data would be
appropriate points in the system's own man pages, info pages, and website.
(That, of course, is a very high-level, blue-sky, hand-wavy, sketchy
overview, deliberately avoiding fine detail at this stage.)
+1
9:53 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com site
is
also at http://github.com/cobbler and can also take pull requests, if
someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the docs
and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome. It's about
time we had a really good logo too :)
Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of conflict
(dear lord) we did come out with a logo.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
logo specifically:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
favicon:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
-greg
9:54 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:50, James Cammarata <jimi(a)sngx.net> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 9:49 AM, David Lee
<David.Lee(a)ecmwf.int> wrote:
> Greg Swift wrote:
>>
>> So... when I was redoing the web interface one of the things I had in my
>> mind was that it would be nice if there was more on the "welcome"
page
than
>> just a welcome. My thought was to have a generic description of the
left
>> hand menu items, but since you are working on this document, it might be
>> kind of kewl if the simple start here was replicated in the web ui.
Even if
>> the links just point back to the online documentation?
>> [...]
>
>
> Regarding: "Even if the links just point back to the online
documentation?"
>
> It's probably not that simple. At many sites the cobbler (web) server
may
> be firewalled off from the Internet. So the documentation would need to
be
> locally available.
>
> Given that (in the Redhat world, at least), we already have RPMs for
> "cobbler" and "cobbler-web", perhaps there should also be an
RPM
> "cobbler-docs". The source of its data would include pages (or
transformed
> pages) from the wiki; the installed destination of its data would be
> appropriate points in the system's own man pages, info pages, and
website.
> (That, of course, is a very high-level, blue-sky, hand-wavy, sketchy
> overview, deliberately avoiding fine detail at this stage.)
+1
i thought about that after i sent it, you idea is a good path. +1
9:56 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:53, Greg Swift <gregswift(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
> Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com site is
> also at http://github.com/cobbler and can also take pull requests, if
> someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the docs
> and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome. It's about
> time we had a really good logo too :)
>
Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of conflict
(dear lord) we did come out with a logo.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
logo specifically:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
favicon:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
-greg
the only problem was we never got the license issue clarified, which is
also why i haven't put the effort into re-basing.
The creator has sent me an e-mail stating that we have full rights and that
its ours, but i could never get an official word on how that was supposed
to work.
10:03 a.m.
Yeah, not a fan :)
Maybe it's a boot, but if it's a boot, it needs to be a cool mascot-calibre boot,
not a dusty 1890's model boot. And hand crafted? I think doing things by hand is
what we avoid :) Or maybe there's something about connecting things together
that's more appropriate.
I always kind of thought this should be a competition among people on the list -- at least
for a basic idea. Many of us can draw. mspaint level ideas are ok :)
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
(mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com)> wrote:
> Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com
(http://cobbler.github.com) site is also at http://github.com/cobbler and can also take
pull requests, if someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the docs
and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome. It's about time we had a
really good logo too :)
Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of conflict (dear lord) we
did come out with a logo.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
logo specifically:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
favicon:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
-greg
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cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org (mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org)
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
10:21 a.m.
The handcrafted was a bit tongue in cheek in reference to the quality that
handcrafted provides.
I'm down with a competition, but i had a hard enough time getting interest
in the process the first time around. Maybe a second try will be better?
-greg
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:03, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
Yeah, not a fan :)
Maybe it's a boot, but if it's a boot, it needs to be a cool
mascot-calibre boot, not a dusty 1890's model boot. And hand crafted? I
think doing things by hand is what we avoid :) Or maybe there's something
about connecting things together that's more appropriate.
I always kind of thought this should be a competition among people on the
list -- at least for a basic idea. Many of us can draw. mspaint level
ideas are ok :)
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com site is
also at http://github.com/cobbler and can also take pull requests, if
someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the docs
and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome. It's about
time we had a really good logo too :)
Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of conflict
(dear lord) we did come out with a logo.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
logo specifically:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
favicon:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
-greg
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cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
_______________________________________________
cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
10:26 a.m.
Sure, let's go for it. All it takes is a pen and a camera or scanner. Look how far
XKCD gets with just stick figures.
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Greg Swift wrote:
The handcrafted was a bit tongue in cheek in reference to the quality
that handcrafted provides.
I'm down with a competition, but i had a hard enough time getting interest in the
process the first time around. Maybe a second try will be better?
-greg
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:03, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
(mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com)> wrote:
> Yeah, not a fan :)
>
> Maybe it's a boot, but if it's a boot, it needs to be a cool mascot-calibre
boot, not a dusty 1890's model boot. And hand crafted? I think doing things by
hand is what we avoid :) Or maybe there's something about connecting things together
that's more appropriate.
>
> I always kind of thought this should be a competition among people on the list -- at
least for a basic idea. Many of us can draw. mspaint level ideas are ok :)
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Greg Swift wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
(mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com
(http://cobbler.github.com) site is also at http://github.com/cobbler and can also take
pull requests, if someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the docs
and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome. It's about time we had a
really good logo too :)
> >
> > Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of conflict (dear
lord) we did come out with a logo.
> >
> > http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
> >
> > I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
> >
> >
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
> >
> > logo specifically:
> >
> >
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
> >
> > favicon:
> >
> >
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
> >
> > -greg
> > _______________________________________________
> > cobbler mailing list
> > cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org (mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org)
> > https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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10:33 a.m.
Greg Swift wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:43, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
<mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com>> wrote:
Re: the idea of a better welcome page, the cobbler.github.com
<http://cobbler.github.com> site is also at
http://github.com/cobbler and can also take pull requests, if
someone with web-design chops wants to add some better links to the
docs and more impressive blingy-ness. That would be awesome.
It's about time we had a really good logo too :)
Actually we got with the Fedora Design team, and despite lots of
conflict (dear lord) we did come out with a logo.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-July/004611.html
I haven't gotten commit set rebased on new github setup
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/commit/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd167...
logo specifically:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
favicon:
https://github.com/gregswift/cobbler/blob/70f2c08c7beb89a35e364eeefd1678b...
[...]
"Hand crafted"? With an old-style boot? But in my view the whole point
of cobbler installation is the opposite. Isn't it to have a
high-quality, reliable, automated production line for multiple instances
of machines? The last thing we want is old-style, geek-in-a-garage
sys.admins. spending their lives hand-crafting every detail on every box
and inevitably getting something, somewhere wrong. That's completely
unscalable: the very opposite of what cobbler is about, isn't it?
I'm no artist. But something like a a shelf of computer icons (possibly
two or three instances of two or three different types. And to the
lower left, a shiny, fashionable streamlined boot in mid-swing, and some
curvy lines to suggest that this boot has just deposited those computers
on that shelf. Or something like that.
-- David Lee
10:57 a.m.
Michael DeHaan wrote:
Thanks, totally agree.
[...]
Thanks. Glad to that, as a newbie to cobbler, I'm getting this
more-or-less right.
[...]
Then there are a few things that probably don't have pages on them,
where we could take them off the main page too.
* power management
* PXE (boot loop prevention, menu generation, etc)
* configuration management (section exists already about puppet, but
should merge in the built-in config stuff and make easier to understand)
[...]
I've always been uneasy about the way cobbler talks about "configuration
management".
Installed machines can have a life-cycle of several years. It is in
this long-term, ongoing maintenance context that products such as
cfengine and puppet use the term "configuration management".
But when cobbler documentation uses this same term, it isn't talking
about long-term maintenance at all. Rather it is talking about
"configuration initialisation": getting some sort of initial
configuration onto the machine that will probably do for the moment,
where "for the moment" means "while my mind is on the business of
getting this machine started; probably less than a day; probably less
than an hour; probably less than even 15 minutes".
So I would suggest that we give care to our use of terminology and
intention. I suggest we reserve the term "configuration management" for
its generally understood long-term maintenance purpose (cfengine,
puppet, etc.), and introduce a term such as "configuration
initialisation" to discuss our activities of doing the initial
tailoring. This initial tailoring might include hooks to install
cfengine/puppet and just enough to get them started; it might include
the material (hitherto called "config management", such as "management
classes" etc.).
-- David Lee
11:08 a.m.
"Hand crafted"? With an old-style boot? But in my view
the whole point of
cobbler installation is the opposite. Isn't it to have a high-quality,
reliable, automated production line for multiple instances of machines? The
last thing we want is old-style, geek-in-a-garage sys.admins. spending their
lives hand-crafting every detail on every box and inevitably getting
something, somewhere wrong. That's completely unscalable: the very opposite
of what cobbler is about, isn't it?
I'm no artist. But something like a a shelf of computer icons (possibly two
or three instances of two or three different types. And to the lower left,
a shiny, fashionable streamlined boot in mid-swing, and some curvy lines to
suggest that this boot has just deposited those computers on that shelf. Or
something like that.
And pie.
11:21 a.m.
No, there's no reason to limit it, nor any reason to assume the status quo must hold.
There's nothing saying koan can't gain more support for more idempotent
configuration runs and couldn't be put on a crontab. This is probably an area where
it will only grow. Most of the complexity in configuration management tools is not
needed when the packages do most of the work. What's left is mostly around blasting
out templates, and if you need a more complex system, it can integrate with those. Is
Cobbler just a provisioning app when it also does repo mirroring and updates, and can
reboot your machines for you? Not really.
I actually like what's been added to Cobbler to support better files/package
integration a good amount. Incredibly lightweight, super simple, and doesn't require
you to learn a programming language. Plus I really like that you can use the same
templates for kickstart that you use post-kickstart.
Now imagine using Func or another tool to trigger koan runs, and you have a full system.
(But we'll leave choosing that up to you, crontab would be fine).
Writing a configuration management system into Cobbler (well, Func) was always something I
wanted to do, it was always not organizationally compatible.
To be clear, I have no interest in competing with full-on management stacks -- there's
nothing to win -- but for people who still want to manage their systems simply without
learning a modeling language I think we can do that very very well.
And, in accordance with Cobbler philosophy, we'll not force you to go either way.
Configuration is largely about files. We help you manage those things at runtime.
Nothing wrong with using the word.
Many folks who are pushing out hosted apps with different deployment models (even
Capistrano, etc), just don't need something that heavy.
--Michael
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 11:57 AM, David Lee wrote:
Michael DeHaan wrote:
> Thanks, totally agree.
> [...]
>
Thanks. Glad to that, as a newbie to cobbler, I'm getting this
more-or-less right.
> [...]
> Then there are a few things that probably don't have pages on them,
> where we could take them off the main page too.
>
> * power management
> * PXE (boot loop prevention, menu generation, etc)
> * configuration management (section exists already about puppet, but
> should merge in the built-in config stuff and make easier to understand)
> [...]
>
I've always been uneasy about the way cobbler talks about "configuration
management".
Installed machines can have a life-cycle of several years. It is in
this long-term, ongoing maintenance context that products such as
cfengine and puppet use the term "configuration management".
But when cobbler documentation uses this same term, it isn't talking
about long-term maintenance at all. Rather it is talking about
"configuration initialisation": getting some sort of initial
configuration onto the machine that will probably do for the moment,
where "for the moment" means "while my mind is on the business of
getting this machine started; probably less than a day; probably less
than an hour; probably less than even 15 minutes".
So I would suggest that we give care to our use of terminology and
intention. I suggest we reserve the term "configuration management" for
its generally understood long-term maintenance purpose (cfengine,
puppet, etc.), and introduce a term such as "configuration
initialisation" to discuss our activities of doing the initial
tailoring. This initial tailoring might include hooks to install
cfengine/puppet and just enough to get them started; it might include
the material (hitherto called "config management", such as "management
classes" etc.).
-- David Lee
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cobbler mailing list
cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org (mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org)
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
3:42 a.m.
Thanks, Michael. Looks like my mistake: in trawling through the wiki, I
had overlooked the section in "Built in configuration management" which
is titled "Keeping Things Updated". That addresses my terminological
timescale question, and the implementation question (via koan, which I
had previously thought, from its man page, was purely for installation).
Thanks.
-- David Lee
Michael DeHaan wrote:
No, there's no reason to limit it, nor any reason to assume the
status
quo must hold.
There's nothing saying koan can't gain more support for more idempotent
configuration runs and couldn't be put on a crontab. This is probably
an area where it will only grow. Most of the complexity in
configuration management tools is not needed when the packages do most
of the work. What's left is mostly around blasting out templates, and
if you need a more complex system, it can integrate with those. Is
Cobbler just a provisioning app when it also does repo mirroring and
updates, and can reboot your machines for you? Not really.
I actually like what's been added to Cobbler to support better
files/package integration a good amount. Incredibly lightweight, super
simple, and doesn't require you to learn a programming language. Plus
I really like that you can use the same templates for kickstart that you
use post-kickstart.
Now imagine using Func or another tool to trigger koan runs, and you
have a full system. (But we'll leave choosing that up to you, crontab
would be fine).
Writing a configuration management system into Cobbler (well, Func) was
always something I wanted to do, it was always not organizationally
compatible.
To be clear, I have no interest in competing with full-on management
stacks -- there's nothing to win -- but for people who still want to
manage their systems simply without learning a modeling language I think
we can do that very very well.
And, in accordance with Cobbler philosophy, we'll not force you to go
either way.
Configuration is largely about files. We help you manage those things
at runtime. Nothing wrong with using the word.
Many folks who are pushing out hosted apps with different deployment
models (even Capistrano, etc), just don't need something that heavy.
--Michael
On Thursday, December 22, 2011 at 11:57 AM, David Lee wrote:
> Michael DeHaan wrote:
>> Thanks, totally agree.
>> [...]
>
> Thanks. Glad to that, as a newbie to cobbler, I'm getting this
> more-or-less right.
>
>> [...]
>> Then there are a few things that probably don't have pages on them,
>> where we could take them off the main page too.
>>
>> * power management
>> * PXE (boot loop prevention, menu generation, etc)
>> * configuration management (section exists already about puppet, but
>> should merge in the built-in config stuff and make easier to understand)
>> [...]
>
> I've always been uneasy about the way cobbler talks about "configuration
> management".
>
> Installed machines can have a life-cycle of several years. It is in
> this long-term, ongoing maintenance context that products such as
> cfengine and puppet use the term "configuration management".
>
> But when cobbler documentation uses this same term, it isn't talking
> about long-term maintenance at all. Rather it is talking about
> "configuration initialisation": getting some sort of initial
> configuration onto the machine that will probably do for the moment,
> where "for the moment" means "while my mind is on the business of
> getting this machine started; probably less than a day; probably less
> than an hour; probably less than even 15 minutes".
>
>
> So I would suggest that we give care to our use of terminology and
> intention. I suggest we reserve the term "configuration management" for
> its generally understood long-term maintenance purpose (cfengine,
> puppet, etc.), and introduce a term such as "configuration
> initialisation" to discuss our activities of doing the initial
> tailoring. This initial tailoring might include hooks to install
> cfengine/puppet and just enough to get them started; it might include
> the material (hitherto called "config management", such as
"management
> classes" etc.).
>
>
>
> -- David Lee
> _______________________________________________
> cobbler mailing list
> cobbler(a)lists.fedorahosted.org <mailto:cobbler@lists.fedorahosted.org>
> https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/cobbler
--
: David Lee
: ECMWF (Data Handling System)
: Shinfield Park
: Reading RG2 9AX
: Berkshire
:
: tel: +44-118-9499 362
: email: david.lee(a)ecmwf.int
3:37 p.m.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:08, James Cammarata <jimi(a)sngx.net> wrote:
> "Hand crafted"? With an old-style boot? But in my
view the whole point
of
> cobbler installation is the opposite. Isn't it to have a high-quality,
> reliable, automated production line for multiple instances of machines?
The
> last thing we want is old-style, geek-in-a-garage sys.admins. spending
their
> lives hand-crafting every detail on every box and inevitably getting
> something, somewhere wrong. That's completely unscalable: the very
opposite
> of what cobbler is about, isn't it?
>
> I'm no artist. But something like a a shelf of computer icons (possibly
two
> or three instances of two or three different types. And to the lower
left,
> a shiny, fashionable streamlined boot in mid-swing, and some curvy lines
to
> suggest that this boot has just deposited those computers on that shelf.
Or
> something like that.
And pie.
So since this hasn't gotten anywhere I do propose that we at least utilize
the boot favicon until someone gets this figured out? I'm all for a fancy
new logo, but the whole reason I started down the path in the first place
was because I was tired of not having a favicon when I pinned cobbler as an
app tab. It doesn't have the medallion look to it or the tongue-in-cheek
caption, its just a fairly quality looking leather boot (not modern per se,
but not a simple work boot either).
Note, I'm not suggesting this as the official cobbler logo, just a stand in
favicon until the logo creation occurs. Which considering the interest
that was put into it both the first and second time it was brought up in
the last 12m I don't necessarily see being fast tracked any time soon.
(just being realistic... most of us are admins/developers not artists)
just a thought/suggestion.
-greg
3:44 p.m.
Yes, I've been slack and didn't draw anything up, but I'm vetoing the boot
favicon. Boot gravely offends me :)
Just a letter C or generic free gear icon or something would be better as a temporary
measure. Almost anything.
On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:08, James Cammarata <jimi(a)sngx.net
(mailto:jimi@sngx.net)> wrote:
> > "Hand crafted"? With an old-style boot? But in my view the whole
point of
> > cobbler installation is the opposite. Isn't it to have a high-quality,
> > reliable, automated production line for multiple instances of machines? The
> > last thing we want is old-style, geek-in-a-garage sys.admins. spending their
> > lives hand-crafting every detail on every box and inevitably getting
> > something, somewhere wrong. That's completely unscalable: the very
opposite
> > of what cobbler is about, isn't it?
> >
> > I'm no artist. But something like a a shelf of computer icons (possibly
two
> > or three instances of two or three different types. And to the lower left,
> > a shiny, fashionable streamlined boot in mid-swing, and some curvy lines to
> > suggest that this boot has just deposited those computers on that shelf. Or
> > something like that.
>
> And pie.
>
So since this hasn't gotten anywhere I do propose that we at least utilize the boot
favicon until someone gets this figured out? I'm all for a fancy new logo, but the
whole reason I started down the path in the first place was because I was tired of not
having a favicon when I pinned cobbler as an app tab. It doesn't have the medallion
look to it or the tongue-in-cheek caption, its just a fairly quality looking leather boot
(not modern per se, but not a simple work boot either).
Note, I'm not suggesting this as the official cobbler logo, just a stand in favicon
until the logo creation occurs. Which considering the interest that was put into it both
the first and second time it was brought up in the last 12m I don't necessarily see
being fast tracked any time soon. (just being realistic... most of us are
admins/developers not artists)
just a thought/suggestion.
-greg
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Attachments:
- favicon.png
4 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 15:44, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
Yes, I've been slack and didn't draw anything up, but I'm
vetoing the boot
favicon. Boot gravely offends me :)
why? you did name the application, did you not?
*cob·bler*/ˈkäblər/Noun:
1. A person who mends shoes as a job.
2. An iced drink made with wine or sherry, sugar, and lemon.
Synonyms:
shoemaker
(I was actually surprised by 2.. i was expecting come kind of fruit based
baked good...)
Just a letter C or generic free gear icon or something would be better as a
temporary measure. Almost anything.
okay... so.. from teh current 'logo' see attached.... it looks okay, but
doesn't really do much, but its better than blank.
-greg
4:05 p.m.
I just don't like work boots? :)
On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 15:44, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
(mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com)> wrote:
> Yes, I've been slack and didn't draw anything up, but I'm vetoing the
boot favicon. Boot gravely offends me :)
why? you did name the application, did you not?
cob·bler/ˈkäblər/
Noun:
A person who mends shoes as a job.
An iced drink made with wine or sherry, sugar, and lemon.
Synonyms:
shoemaker
(I was actually surprised by 2.. i was expecting come kind of fruit based baked good...)
> Just a letter C or generic free gear icon or something would be better as a
temporary measure. Almost anything.
okay... so.. from teh current 'logo' see attached.... it looks okay, but
doesn't really do much, but its better than blank.
-greg
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Attachments:
- classic-c-favicon.png
4:13 p.m.
works4me. send a pull request.
On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 16:05, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com
(mailto:michael.dehaan@gmail.com)> wrote:
> I just don't like work boots? :)
okay.
you didn't comment on the 'c' favicon.
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4:36 p.m.
so.. my lab got blown away and i've got other stuph i'm trying to finish at
the moment so I didn't give this a full bore test... but it looks right...
pull request sent.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 16:13, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
works4me. send a pull request.
On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Greg Swift wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 16:05, Michael DeHaan <michael.dehaan(a)gmail.com>wrote:
I just don't like work boots? :)
okay.
you didn't comment on the 'c' favicon.
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25 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Michael DeHaan