13:05 < stickster> <meeting> 13:05 < stickster> here 13:05 * couf 13:06 * EvilBob 13:06 * jsmith is here 13:06 < stickster> great! Quorum :-) 13:06 < EvilBob> sweet 13:06 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project: F9 docs review 13:07 * Sparks is here somewhere 13:07 < stickster> OK, couf can talk about the AG status 13:07 < couf> OK 13:07 < couf> even DUG actually :-) 13:07 < stickster> Yes indeedy :-) 13:08 < couf> both AG and DUG are targeting release at F9-beta which is beginning of March 13:08 < couf> had a small meeting this weekend with the core group, meeting log and summary posted to the group 13:09 < couf> basic needs are input from KDE-knowlegable people for DUG and some server-fu specialists to check down AG 13:09 < jsmith> I'd be happy to look through the AG 13:09 < couf> both are pretty much on target as it is, so it's shaping up to become good 13:09 < stickster> couf: What recruiting are you and the other writers doing to get KDE people to examine the docs? 13:09 < couf> core group is committed to "get it done" so that's very good 13:10 * stickster has found the only way to get developers focused is by pestering them politely, loudly and repeatedly 13:10 < couf> we've tried to get the KDE-sig on board but they don't have manpower available 13:10 < couf> so we're going to track some people on the fedora-list, and probably try and trick some upstream guys into checking our work 13:10 < stickster> Some blogging might be good... 13:10 < EvilBob> couf: I will see if I can pick anyone out of #fedora that might be willing to step up 13:11 * stickster tries to think up some other ways to attract eyeballs 13:11 < couf> EvilBob: much appreciated 13:11 < stickster> messages to KDE docs team? 13:11 < couf> yep 13:11 * quaid is finally here 13:12 < stickster> I know Fedora has a thriving KDE user community -- *some* of those folks have to be interested in having good KDE docs! 13:12 < couf> blogging might be a good one too 13:12 < couf> indeed 13:12 < stickster> If we can't get KDE love, what's the drop back plan? 13:12 < stickster> Is there one? 13:12 < stickster> Hi quaid! 13:12 * stickster hands over gavel 13:12 < quaid> hola amigos y amigas 13:13 < couf> not really, the idea would be to use the KDE docs itself, but they have different licenses 13:13 < couf> which could be messy 13:13 < quaid> exactly 13:13 < couf> GFDL iirc 13:13 < quaid> that would be the upstreadm suggestion, typically 13:13 < couf> yeah 13:13 < quaid> so ... 13:14 < quaid> we have to pressure within the project 13:14 < quaid> and kindly ask without 13:14 < quaid> +1 to fedora-list asking 13:14 < quaid> is there one person doing this seeking for KDE help? 13:14 < couf> we've got some work on XFCE too, btw (jmbusser is handling that) 13:14 < couf> yeah, marc wiriadisastra is doing that 13:15 < quaid> fallback == beta has GNOME only, work on KDE for beta2? 13:15 * couf hopes he got that name right :-) 13:15 -!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 85 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 84 normal] 13:15 < stickster> couf: it's right :-) 13:15 < quaid> strikeforce++ 13:15 * nirik is happy to answer Xfce questions as well. 13:15 < couf> quaid: possible, yes 13:15 < EvilBob> nirik: thanks 13:15 < couf> the idea was to have both AG and DUG ready so we can tackle IG, relnotes etc after 13:16 < quaid> is there a schedule with milestones from here to beta? 13:16 < couf> not set in stone 13:16 < quaid> we need enough time to convert to XML 13:16 < stickster> For AG/DUG, maybe not -- for relnotes, http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/ has milestones for things like relnotes 13:16 < quaid> with training for new folks, so make it a bit longer 13:16 < stickster> sorry, redundancy 13:16 < quaid> stickster: just an internal schedule so we are on time 13:16 < quaid> that is 13:16 < quaid> don't miss an obvious dependency, etc. :) 13:17 < stickster> poelcat can help us with that if we desire. 13:17 < couf> heh 13:17 -!- antgreen__ [n=green@nat/redhat/x-7afb8a70da5dec4d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17 < quaid> couf: do you want final wordsmith and technical edits in Wiki or after in XML? 13:17 < quaid> i.e., where is it easier and does the other writers the most good? 13:17 * quaid thinks maybe wiki, from that ... 13:17 * stickster hopes he is not volunteering poelcat out-fo-turn 13:17 < couf> I think as it is now, we can have the DUG and AG ready by half Feb in wiki terms, which gives us a lot off time 13:18 < couf> quaid: would be best wiki-way, as to help for further versions, if me do them 13:18 < couf> s/me/we 13:18 < quaid> couf: can you make a draft schedule? just working backwards like that 13:18 < couf> sure 13:18 < quaid> include X days (5?) for wiki edit, and similar for conversion to XML 13:18 < quaid> ok, we can get poelcat to add it to the overall docs schedule after that 13:19 < quaid> and jmbuser can use the template for the DUG 13:19 * couf adds to TODO 13:19 -!- jlaska [n=jlaska@nat/redhat/x-9326078e383ea5fc] has joined #fedora-meeting 13:19 < quaid> yeah, then we can get the schedule to correctly reflect when we do the IG and relnotes work 13:19 < poelcat> just open a ticket at poelcat.hosted ;-) 13:19 < couf> so just want to give a thumbs up to both marc and vladimir, they been doing terrific work 13:19 < quaid> nice! 13:19 < stickster> Who's the man!?! 13:19 -!- antgreen__ [n=green@nat/redhat/x-49e6128e5ad7196e] has joined #fedora-meeting 13:20 < quaid> couf: +1 to that 13:20 < stickster> couf: amen 13:20 < quaid> I've been trying not to overpraise and stuff, but they are certainly worthy of the Big Fedora Love 13:21 * couf ends DUG-AG status 13:22 < quaid> ok, relnotes prep ... 13:22 < quaid> 1. time to start advertising the Docs/Beats for other contributos 13:22 < quaid> 2. recruit more dedicated help? 13:22 < quaid> we need someone with eyes like mether 13:23 < quaid> s/one/ones/ ? 13:23 < stickster> There have been a number of changes rolling in already 13:23 < quaid> yes 13:23 < quaid> here's the question from me ... 13:23 < quaid> we've tried the regular beat maintainers, and it is hot-or-miss 13:23 < quaid> most of the work comes from a small handful 13:23 < quaid> what is the right thing to do from here? 13:23 < quaid> <discuss> 13:23 < stickster> blog blog blog 13:23 < quaid> s/hot/hit/ :) 13:24 < quaid> ah, nagmail++ 13:24 < quaid> blognag 13:24 < stickster> Isn't that a town in Ireland? 13:24 < jsmith> Does it taste like eggnog? 13:24 < quaid> yes and yes 13:24 * stickster apologizes to any residents of the Auld Sod listening in 13:25 < couf> different approach maybe: starting from the features list and working through that to get the people behind them doing some content 13:25 < quaid> isn't there a section in the feature page for relnotes content? 13:26 < couf> d'oh, /me feels sheepish 13:27 < stickster> Ouch, wiki getting pounded today apparently. 13:27 < stickster> Yes, they each have a place for that content 13:27 < stickster> Doesn't appear to be filled in for at least some of them 13:27 * stickster hasn't counted but is not optimistic :-D 13:28 < quaid> couf: no, that is a good point 13:28 < quaid> couf: and another reason to blog, creating more attention :) 13:28 < quaid> poelcat: is completion of release notes/marketing spew required for a feature to be complete? 13:29 < quaid> this is the release we SWORE we would get the overviews synced and from one canonical source ... 13:29 < couf> ah that way it might be interesting 13:29 * EvilBob swears all the time anyhow 13:30 < poelcat> quaid: not exactly 13:30 < quaid> Marketing SIG may still decide to write up a higher level overview, but we can coordinate 13:30 < EvilBob> poelcat: fix that for F10 13:30 < stickster> Yes, we want to draw all OverView from one source 13:30 < poelcat> or at all :-/ 13:30 < EvilBob> lol 13:30 < quaid> poelcat: :( 13:30 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si@fedora/kital] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30 < poelcat> the focus is really on "does the functionality work" 13:31 < quaid> well 13:31 < stickster> "If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it..." 13:31 < quaid> that's more of a focus of a package set :) 13:31 < poelcat> and when a feature is submitted prior to feature freeze a lot of times those things are TBD 13:31 < quaid> a feature needs more than that 13:31 < quaid> well, needs to be completed by some point, not at the start 13:31 < poelcat> sometimes rightfully and other times procrastination? :) 13:32 < quaid> poelcat: would you agree to the concept of "release notes and some attempt at a lousy marketing blurb" as a feature completion requirement? for the future, that is ... 13:32 < poelcat> quaid: i'll let someone else propose to FESCo that features be dropped if the release notes aren't complete ;-) 13:32 < quaid> ok 13:32 < poelcat> quaid: it seems reasonable to me, though I have a hunch the developers/maintainers may not agree 13:32 < quaid> poelcat: as Feature Wrangler, can you kindly ask folks when you interact with them to complete those parts by ... 13:33 < quaid> and we can see how that goes 13:33 < poelcat> quaid: glad to 13:33 < quaid> if there is universal adoption and no need for onerousness, why wrestle with FESCo on it? 13:33 * stickster will raise this with bpepple 13:33 < poelcat> and if there are particular ones you want me to nag, send me mail 13:33 < stickster> At least we should alert him what we're doing 13:34 < quaid> stickster: my point, as I'm sure you know, is that Fedora is more than a bunch of packages that work together :) 13:34 < stickster> Absolutely 13:34 < quaid> k 13:34 < quaid> all: please blog wihin the next 10 days about: 13:34 < quaid> * relnotes beats (Docs/Beats/) 13:34 < quaid> 0r * features content 13:34 < quaid> or * new beat writers 13:35 < quaid> anything else on this topic? 13:35 < couf> what needs to be done for the one-page relnotes? 13:35 * quaid waits for stickster ... 13:35 < stickster> Is there any concern about us now being another RH bureaucratic layer strangling poor, hapless developers who are trying to GTD? 13:36 < quaid> couf: hold that thought one sec ... 13:36 < quaid> stickster: but we are Fedora!!! :) 13:36 < quaid> stickster: for the features request? 13:36 < stickster> And you can too 13:36 < stickster> Right 13:36 < quaid> here's the thing, IMNSHO about features 13:36 < quaid> if you want to call yourself a feature and get the attention 13:36 < quaid> it means more than just completing shit and making it work on time 13:36 < jsmith> stickster: "I am Fedora and You Can Too"? 13:36 < stickster> jsmith: exactly 13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to be called up to the stage in a conference to talk about it 13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to be a community leader about it 13:37 < jsmith> stickster: That's the title of your next blog post, btw 13:37 < quaid> it means you are willing to do the marketing, sales, etc. 13:37 < stickster> jsmith: obsolete already I think 13:37 < stickster> quaid: +1, just FYI 13:37 < quaid> if not, then don't ask Fedora to "care" about your feature enough to devote so much time to it 13:37 < quaid> that's my thinking :) 13:37 < couf> +1 13:37 < stickster> We're just making sure that people watching this channel know *why* we're asking for this. 13:37 < jsmith> If it's worth writing, it's worth documenting/marketing/plugging 13:37 < stickster> Exactly. 13:38 < quaid> jsmith +1 13:38 < stickster> So, all you eavesdroppers -- make us care! 13:38 < couf> that's the idea :-) 13:38 < jmtaylor> should that be something that get added to the feature form? a note about expected commitment? 13:38 < quaid> stickster: thanks for the excuse to rant, though :) 13:38 < stickster> quaid: NP, I live to serve. 13:38 < quaid> jmtaylor: good question; not sure if that is part of the feature process or expectation, but I think it should be 13:38 < quaid> ok, now to couf's question ... 13:38 < quaid> the one-sheet 13:39 < quaid> we need content for it, and we can draw that from the existing state of Docs/Beats 13:39 < quaid> so we don't have to recruit for it, but we might want to. 13:40 < quaid> as a reminder of what the one-sheet is ... 13:40 < quaid> this is a single Wiki page that we can link from the alpha, beta ISOs 13:40 < quaid> so we can change it up to the last minute, link updated bug reports from it, etc. 13:41 < quaid> it also is a quick-overview of what is in this alpha, beta that is noteworthy 13:41 < quaid> supposed to be lower-impact work to Docs compared to what we did before, which was a full run from Wiki => XML + translation for each test release 13:41 < quaid> *whew* 13:42 < quaid> so, in many ways, the content "belongs" to release eng (f13), features (poelcat), etc. 13:42 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Test/F8Test2/ReleaseNotes 13:42 < couf> quaid you steal my words 13:42 < couf> but do continue 13:42 < quaid> couf: maybe I should stop talking :) 13:42 < quaid> stickster: F8Test? 13:43 < stickster> That's the last one-sheet we did for the previous cycle 13:43 < quaid> oh, right, sorry 13:43 * quaid is lost in version numbering 13:43 < stickster> Just for reference in case people haven't seen that one 13:43 < stickster> There's a lot of copy/paste material in there. 13:43 < quaid> so we need Releases/9/Alpha/ReleaseNotes 13:44 < poelcat> quaid: good reminder for me to ping the feature owners for a status update 13:44 < couf> yeah, so same counts here: get blogging, news-spreading and let the people behind it create the content :-) 13:44 < stickster> Thank you poelcat: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-9/f-9-docs-details.html 13:44 * stickster notes the dates are a bit off because of the 1-week Alpha slide 13:45 < poelcat> stickster: i'll fix that 13:45 < stickster> poelcat: Thanks! :-) 13:45 < stickster> Fortunately it hasn't rippled 13:45 < poelcat> that's what I get for lurking on this channel... more action items :) 13:46 < quaid> heh 13:46 < stickster> poor poelcat 13:46 * EvilBob thinks that is how he became FDSCo 13:46 < stickster> Oh my, we're 40 minutes in and haven't covered a few other items 13:47 < quaid> yep, let's move on 13:47 < stickster> quaid and I have to bail in time to make the next meeting :-D 13:47 < quaid> aye 13:47 < quaid> ok, so IG 13:47 < stickster> So... IG. :-) 13:47 < quaid> two approaches: 13:47 < quaid> 1. raw recruit 13:47 < stickster> I can definitely *help* 13:47 < quaid> 2. build on what is working so far 13:48 < quaid> what I mean by 2 is, let's old and new hands make sure the AG and DUG hit their target, then that frees *all* of us up to split up the IG work 13:48 < quaid> in there we build the skills to do the relnotes work, as well 13:48 < stickster> right 13:48 < quaid> (which coinicidentally leads to the next agenda item :) 13:48 < couf> that's the basic goal yes 13:48 < stickster> Hey, how'd *that* get there?!? 13:48 < quaid> stickster: can you advertise for a co-maintainer who will take over post F9? 13:48 < stickster> jsmith is too modest 13:48 < stickster> quaid: absosmurfly 13:48 < quaid> and then set the expectation that you are there to mentor and the group is there to help? 13:49 < jsmith> stickster: Who, me? 13:49 < stickster> Yeah, you! 13:49 < stickster> quaid: +1 13:49 < stickster> That will be blog #2 tonight 13:49 * stickster already preparing blog #1 for relnotes 13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: I am willing to take that on if you mentor me, I do as many or more installs in a release lifetime as anyone 13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: plus I really need a document 13:50 < EvilBob> stickster: talking about the IG 13:50 < couf> EvilBob++ 13:50 < jsmith> :-) 13:51 < stickster> I am here to help whoever wants to take it on 13:51 < stickster> It's not *quite* as bad as it seems, honestly 13:51 < couf> jsmith: has the yum-guide :-) 13:51 < quaid> sorry, had to pay the heater repair fella 13:52 < quaid> ok, last item 13:52 < quaid> training 13:52 < quaid> we are doing a ton more wiki2xml this time 13:52 < quaid> so we really need a process, how-to, etc. 13:52 -!- loupgaroublond [n=yankee(a)pool-71-182-215-182.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 13:52 < jsmith> quaid: Agreed! 13:52 < jsmith> quaid: I'm happy to help write that, after I finish wrapping my head around it all 13:53 < quaid> let's cobble together our notes this week and have it as an action/task to have a beta usable how-to by next week? 13:53 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tools/Wiki2XML 13:53 < stickster> May just need to be refreshed 13:53 < jsmith> Fair enough 13:53 < quaid> yeah 13:53 < couf> +1 13:53 < jsmith> stickster: Why didn't you show me that last week? 13:53 * jsmith ducks 13:53 < quaid> that page + how-to with steps 13:53 < stickster> jsmith: Oops, I just remembered it because quaid triggered my supermnemonic memory with the title meme 13:53 < quaid> jsmith: leaky carpenter's roof? 13:54 < quaid> ironically ... I named that page, too, and forgot about it 13:54 * quaid updates WorkFlow 13:54 < stickster> This very topic is one that jsmith and I were working on the other night with the yum guide 13:54 < jsmith> quaid: The cobbler's kids have no shoes... 13:55 < jsmith> stickster: Speaking of which... I have a lot more things to go back through on the yum guide 13:55 < EvilBob> We do have another item we need to discuss, your successor, maybe next meeting or list? 13:55 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow 13:56 < quaid> EvilBob: yeah, we do, let's go for the list perhaps 13:56 < quaid> we still need a meeting time where all can meet :) 13:56 < EvilBob> right 13:57 < couf> so anything left? 13:58 < EvilBob> OK </meeting> ? 13:58 < quaid> nope 13:58 < quaid> 5 13:58 < quaid> 4 13:58 < quaid> 3 13:58 < quaid> 2 13:58 < quaid> last chance! 13:58 < quaid> 1 13:58 < quaid> </meeting>