11:37 a.m.
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There
Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move
away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more
relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating
Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of
the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have
all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the
community. For this to be a success, community support is very much
required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or
pointers are most
welcome.
--
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Birla Institute Of Technology, Mesra
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
1:02 p.m.
Aditya Patawari wrote:
which will have all the packages of live cd
Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME
("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either need
more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one
desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix
GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of feedback
from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those
users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they
switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after you
selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user
selection is very counterintuitive).
Kevin Kofler
1:08 p.m.
Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live DVD is
recommended. Also it makes more sense as the live dvd will copy the files
onto the system. Environment selection is tricky and can result into an
unstable or bug prone release.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at>wrote:
Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME
("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either
need
more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one
desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix
GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of
feedback
from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those
users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they
switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after
you
selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user
selection is very counterintuitive).
Kevin Kofler
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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
1:29 p.m.
Aditya Patawari wrote:
Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live
DVD is
recommended.
I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting
this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff,
like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many
supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs
include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional
applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider
including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default,
but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non-
trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the
installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry.
Kevin Kofler
1:37 p.m.
Thanks Kevin for all this help. I understand that mirroring it will be
difficult due to space constraints. I'll take this to fedora infrastructure
as soon as we have enough members on SIG. I see that you haven't joined the
SIG yet, please do join it soon.
Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at>wrote:
I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting
this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more
stuff,
like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many
supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs
include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional
applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider
including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default,
but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non-
trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the
installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry.
Kevin Kofler
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India
1:53 p.m.
Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff,
like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many
supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs
include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional
applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider
including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default,
but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough
fonts is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several
times again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article).
So I'd expect desktop livecds to address this.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
2:33 p.m.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
<nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net> wrote:
Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>
> The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff,
> like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many
> supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs
> include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional
> applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also
> consider
> including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default,
> but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough fonts
is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several times
again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article). So I'd
expect desktop livecds to address this.
I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation
program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your
installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall
<corresponding comps group>. (This is another reason why the
kickstart files should only be subtraction-for-space from a comps
group). The Live CD should basically be enough to bootstrap and get a
good feel for the system and do basic tasks.
This also moves us much closer to having 1 defined set of things in
the "installation" instead of two wildly different things which is
really broken from a QA/marketing/etc. standpoint.
2:46 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Colin Walters <walters(a)verbum.org> wrote:
I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation
program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your
installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall
<corresponding comps group>
We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote
fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get
everything from repo due to bad internet connection or just because they
don't know what to install to get a particular job done. The problem with
dvd install is that not everyone is familiar that what packages he/she
require to do a particular task. Live DVD will be helpful in these
situations. There won't be any need to download packages from internet as
most common of them will be pre-installed.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
2:55 p.m.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Aditya Patawari
<aditya(a)adityapatawari.com> wrote:
We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote
fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get
everything from repo due to bad internet connection
Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you
install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps
group.
However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be
DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into
the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work
could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or
maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you
just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD?
3 p.m.
Great Idea!!
It would be really nice if this could be implemented successfully.
Live CD + An internal Repo + A bit of php coding to choose the packages =
Live DVD
Genius :)
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Colin Walters <walters(a)verbum.org> wrote:
Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you
install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps
group.
However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be
DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into
the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work
could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or
maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you
just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD?
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Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
7:34 a.m.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 10:07:46PM +0530, Aditya Patawari wrote:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine.
There
Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move
away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more
relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating
Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of
the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will
have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the
community. For this to be a success, community support is very much
required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at
[1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD .� Any kind of suggestions
or pointers are most
welcome.
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the
Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped
since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't
have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly
constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our
desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many
languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications
that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium,
we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live
image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need
for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful
applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the
Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling
empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than
everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the
Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic
Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are
contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly
permits it.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
7:49 a.m.
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more
packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of
creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an
internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of
accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which
a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try
before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster(a)gmail.com>wrote:
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the
Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped
since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't
have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly
constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our
desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many
languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications
that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium,
we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live
image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need
for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful
applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the
Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling
empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than
everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the
Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic
Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are
contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly
permits it.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
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India
7:24 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Aditya Patawari
<aditya(a)adityapatawari.com> wrote:
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include
more
packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of
creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an
internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of
accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which
a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try
before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is.
While I really prefer the idea of a live DVD over a normal install
DVD, just filling it with extra software seems like a bit of a waste.
What would be awesome (but understandably difficult) would have a grub
menu showing KDE / GNOME / XFCE at boot, and use that as the live DE.
It'd be a painless way try different DEs and pretty damn cool.
10:56 a.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 08:34:43 -0400,
"Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the
Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped
since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't
have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly
constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our
desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many
languages as possible.
Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin) that is
limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems.
There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma compression
by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso
size limits.
11:31 a.m.
Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin)
that is
limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems.
Many people who have a choice prefer USB2.0 flash memory storage over DVD
because it has much lower latency (seeks are much faster) and does not
degrade the drive [wear] nor the platter [scratches] during frequent or
intensive use. The downside is lower capacity in readily-available units
("4GB" [or even "2GB"] instead of "4.7GB"), higher initial
cost for media
(typical in US: 4GB flash $9; DVD+R $0.40), different physical attachment,
different BIOS capability.
There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma
compression
by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso
size limits.
Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years:
http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project
is not using lzma?
--
2:13 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 09:31:48 -0700,
John Reiser <jreiser(a)bitwagon.com> wrote:
Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years:
http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project
is not using lzma?
The squashfs-tools srpm does not include the squashfs-lmza patches. It
just has the 4.0 tbz file and a patch for handing compiler options in SOURCES.
I belive the problem has been Fedora rarely using kernel modules that
aren't in mainline. squashfs-lzma is not mainline at this time. But both
squashfs and lzma have been included in recent mainline kernels.
Lougher had said he was going to try to get the patches into 2.6.31, but
didn't end up making it. I haven't seen anything yet indicating that
they got into the 2.6.32 merge window, but there is still time.
It's probably too late for F12 even if it did make it in to 2.6.32.
11:29 a.m.
Aditya Patawari (aditya(a)adityapatawari.com) said:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There
Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move
away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more
relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating
Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of
the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have
all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the
community. For this to be a success, community support is very much
required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or
pointers are most
welcome.
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting
a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Bill
12:20 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> wrote:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting
a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I
am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user
will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to
install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and
will also increase the package installation speed.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
1:03 p.m.
Aditya Patawari (aditya(a)adityapatawari.com) said:
> How would this be different from each LiveCD group just
targeting
> a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I
am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user
will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to
install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and
will also increase the package installation speed.
... how is that significantly different than what we have now?
Now:
- user downloads DVD iso
- user picks from arbitrary set of software
- additional software can be selected from network
- user installs
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
Bill
1:07 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> wrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current
Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and
this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
1:08 p.m.
Colin Walters (walters(a)verbum.org) said:
> New:
> - user downloads DVD live iso
> - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
> - user installs
> - user reboots
> - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
> - additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current
Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and
this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having
to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems
inefficient.
Bill
1:18 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> wrote:
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having
to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems
inefficient.
Well, there are a few other virtues to having a larger image, namely:
* Can use web browser to find out more information about applications
(and in general, use other live tools)
* De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
one single path
1:28 p.m.
Colin Walters (walters(a)verbum.org) said:
* De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on
streamlining
one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know
that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live
image.)
Bill
1:37 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Colin Walters (walters(a)verbum.org) said:
> * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
> one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know
that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live
image.)
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X
session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda
OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
5:06 a.m.
Colin Walters <walters(a)verbum.org> writes:
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from
inside the GDM X
session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda
OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than
kickstart-files.
I would really hate to lose kickstart.
/Benny
10:16 a.m.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benny Amorsen <benny+usenet(a)amorsen.dk> wrote:
Colin Walters <walters(a)verbum.org> writes:
> I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X
> session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda
> OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than
kickstart-files.
I would really hate to lose kickstart.
No one's suggesting replacing kickstart, actually I think we way
undersell it. What I'm talking about is the mode where the image
boots directly into Anaconda as a complete OS should instead be a live
image with Anaconda as an application, which for the most part would
be the same except you'd gain the ability to run say Firefox (or any
other app; games), or do "yum install" during the install.
1:24 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com>wrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us
will be
ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller
hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than
he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do
not have internet access or a bad connection.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
1:27 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Aditya Patawari
<aditya(a)adityapatawari.com> wrote:
I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of
us
will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller
hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than
he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do
not have internet access or a bad connection.
They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly.
Kushal
--
http://fedoraproject.org
http://kushaldas.in
2:04 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Kushal Das <kushaldas(a)gmail.com> wrote:
They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly.
Regular DVD won't give the "try before you install" feature. Also
just like
live CD this can be used as rescue disk too.
--
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Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
3:30 p.m.
Aditya Patawari wrote:
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered
install, I
am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user
will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to
install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and
will also increase the package installation speed.
I don't like that idea at all. I think that if we're going to ship software,
we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try it
out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install
it manually after their installation.
Kevin Kofler
3:41 p.m.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at>wrote:
I think that if we're going to ship software,
we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try
it
out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install
it manually after their installation.
The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only
clutter the space and might end up confusing the user. A better alternative
could be to increase the size of install image to nearly 1 GB to accomodate
some more packages and keep the rest of the packages in the inbuilt repo.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
7:52 a.m.
On Monday, 14 September 2009 at 22:41, Aditya Patawari wrote:
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler
<kevin.kofler(a)chello.at>wrote:
> I think that if we're going to ship software,
> we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try
> it
> out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install
> it manually after their installation.
>
The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only
clutter the space and might end up confusing the user.
What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"? It will be on
the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs. What makes you say it will
confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with
software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they
find less confusing or are you just guessing?
Regards,
R.
--
Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann
RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu
"Faith manages."
-- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations"
10:47 a.m.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the
space"?
By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and
workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you
want to work upon.
It will be on
the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs.
Yes, It will be on DVD but uninstalled packages will not show on main menu.
What makes you say it will
confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with
software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they
find less confusing or are you just guessing?
A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a
mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular
users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the
overall ease of use.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
4:34 p.m.
On Tuesday, 15 September 2009 at 17:47, Aditya Patawari wrote:
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann'
Mierzejewski <
dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
> What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"?
By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and
workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you
want to work upon.
Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I don't know
so I'm asking.
> What makes you say it will
> confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with
> software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they
> find less confusing or are you just guessing?
>
A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a
mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular
users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the
overall ease of use.
Was it specifically because there were too many applications installed
or was it something else?
Regards,
R.
--
Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann
RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu
"Faith manages."
-- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations"
1:34 a.m.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
dominik(a)greysector.net> wrote:
Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I
don't
know
so I'm asking.
As I said It was tried by a LUG here. Most of the users were newbies but a
few had some experience. And almost all of them found the startup menu too
confusing to handle.
Was it specifically because there were too many applications
installed
or was it something else?
According to the feedbacks we received, there were too many tools to do the
same work. Also the menu had too many options which made it difficult to get
the best available tool.
As a newbie, instead of testing some 4-6 tools they are more interested in
getting an optimized selection at first. But after a week or two, they tend
to explore around and this is when the repositories are required.
--
Aditya Patawari
Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
5335
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34 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Aditya Patawari -
Benny Amorsen -
Bill Nottingham -
Bruno Wolff III -
Colin Walters -
Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski -
Eric Springer -
John Reiser -
Kevin Kofler -
Kushal Das -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Paul W. Frields