5:47 p.m.
Hello,
TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be
packaged in Fedora?
I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist so it
is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody
else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora)
have it, but it is not advertised well.
The use-cases, I imagine:
1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM
packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora
repositories.
2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package
hello.spec for the hundredth time
3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream
project that is not already in the Fedora repositories.
4. I am bored and feeling altruistic
Implementation options:
1. A standalone website - Sounds like a **lot** of work. We would need
to submit and list the requests, subscribe with email, allow marking
something as blocked by something else, etc.
2. Since the thing, I am describing is basically an issue tracker, we
could create a project on Pagure and have just issues in it
(similar to what https://pagure.io/fedora-magazine-newsroom has)
or on GitHub (similar to what rpmfusion has
https://github.com/rpmfusion-infra/fedy/issues/new/choose). I
personally prefer this option because we could have this
up-and-running in minutes, see if people find it useful and
scratch it otherwise.
3. Bugzilla - More complicated setup than a project on
Pagure/GitHub, more complex UI discouraging newbies and
non-technical people to use it (which is a problem, since they are
the target audience). On the other hand, we could easily link
wished packages from package review tickets.
4. Wiki - I don't have many experiences with wikis but I never
enjoyed working with them. IMHO they are a boring middle ground
between static page generators and websites with a database, always
being worse than those two. But if you think a wiki would be a
good fit, I am fine with that.
5. Basically 2. or 3. but with a website, that presents the issues
from Pagure or Bugzilla in a more friendly format. I can see some
benefits to this, and I would certainly enjoy implementing it,
but I see this as a long-term thing, only if the whole package
wishlist idea works.
Other distributions:
- GNU/Guix - https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/Wishlist - That
wiki actually looks good
- OpenSuse - https://tr.opensuse.org/Paket_%C4%B0stek_Listesi_(Wishlist)
- RPM Fusion - https://rpmfusion.org/Wishlist
What do you think? Do we have anything like this? Should we try it?
What option should we go with?
Jakub
6:15 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:56 PM Jakub Kadlčík <jkadlcik(a)redhat.com> wrote:
TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be
packaged in Fedora?
There is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainers_wishlist
9:53 p.m.
There's been a (short) discussion about having a wishlist last month:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.o...
A.FI.
3:43 a.m.
There used to be Wishlist on Ruby SIG page, but I have remove it [1] for
several reasons:
1) It was not maintained, only occasionally somebody added something
2) Nobody really looked at it.
And also, one thing is to add package into Fedora, but maintain it long
term is completely different issue.
BTW nobody ever complained that I have removed the wish list and nobody
bothered to reintroduce it.
Vít
[1]
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SIGs/Ruby&diff=543751&...
Dne 23. 12. 21 v 0:47 Jakub Kadlčík napsal(a):
Hello,
TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be
packaged in Fedora?
I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist so it
is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody
else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora)
have it, but it is not advertised well.
The use-cases, I imagine:
1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM
packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora
repositories.
2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package
hello.spec for the hundredth time
3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an upstream
project that is not already in the Fedora repositories.
4. I am bored and feeling altruistic
Implementation options:
1. A standalone website - Sounds like a **lot** of work. We would need
to submit and list the requests, subscribe with email, allow marking
something as blocked by something else, etc.
2. Since the thing, I am describing is basically an issue tracker, we
could create a project on Pagure and have just issues in it
(similar to what https://pagure.io/fedora-magazine-newsroom has)
or on GitHub (similar to what rpmfusion has
https://github.com/rpmfusion-infra/fedy/issues/new/choose). I
personally prefer this option because we could have this
up-and-running in minutes, see if people find it useful and
scratch it otherwise.
3. Bugzilla - More complicated setup than a project on
Pagure/GitHub, more complex UI discouraging newbies and
non-technical people to use it (which is a problem, since they are
the target audience). On the other hand, we could easily link
wished packages from package review tickets.
4. Wiki - I don't have many experiences with wikis but I never
enjoyed working with them. IMHO they are a boring middle ground
between static page generators and websites with a database, always
being worse than those two. But if you think a wiki would be a
good fit, I am fine with that.
5. Basically 2. or 3. but with a website, that presents the issues
from Pagure or Bugzilla in a more friendly format. I can see some
benefits to this, and I would certainly enjoy implementing it,
but I see this as a long-term thing, only if the whole package
wishlist idea works.
Other distributions:
- GNU/Guix - https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/Wishlist - That
wiki actually looks good
- OpenSuse - https://tr.opensuse.org/Paket_%C4%B0stek_Listesi_(Wishlist)
- RPM Fusion - https://rpmfusion.org/Wishlist
What do you think? Do we have anything like this? Should we try it?
What option should we go with?
Jakub
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11:38 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 12:47:01AM +0100, Jakub Kadlčík wrote:
I haven't seen almost any distribution having a package wishlist
so it
is either a bad idea (and doesn't have any real value) or everybody
else missed a good opportunity. Or possibly they (maybe even Fedora)
have it, but it is not advertised well.
The use-cases, I imagine:
1. I am a non-technical Fedora user without the ability to learn RPM
packaging, and I would like to have some software in the Fedora
repositories.
Generally, putting the package on a wishlist is then an exercise in
disappointment, because....
2. I want to learn RPM packaging and I don't want to package
hello.spec for the hundredth time
... the things that people tend to add to these lists are often not great
starter packages.
3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an
upstream
project that is not already in the Fedora repositories.
4. I am bored and feeling altruistic
Yeah, I'd love to try to encourage these things. So _maybe_ the idea is
worth trying.
Implementation options:
[...]
As someone pointed out, we do have a wiki page, but that's not very
successful. Of the things you suggest, I think a pagure or gitlab tracker is
probably the most viable.
Another option would be to set up a category on Fedora Discussion -- see
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/considering-a-general-reorganizati...
... this would probaly go in the "Specific Workflows" section. We could have
a template for the category and enable voting (with, of course, a clear
notice that voting doesn't mean anything but 'there's a lot of user
interest').
Either way, though, if it's just a place where suggestions go to die, it's
probably better to not have at all.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:43 p.m.
On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 10:41 AM Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 3. I want to become a Fedora packager but I don't work on an
upstream
> project that is not already in the Fedora repositories.
> 4. I am bored and feeling altruistic
Yeah, I'd love to try to encourage these things. So _maybe_ the idea is
worth trying.
The problem with package wishlists is that ...
Either way, though, if it's just a place where suggestions go to
die, it's
probably better to not have at all.
... this is generally what they are. The reason is that the size of
the set of people in category 4 is approximately zero. Real-life
motivations to package software, in my experience, fall into these
categories:
5. I use or want to use application X, and want it to be available from Fedora.
6. I use or want to use application X and package Y is required at
application X build-time or run-time.
7. My employer pays me to keep package X in working order.
If somebody is motivated to add an item to a wishlist, that person is
essentially claiming membership in category 5 or 6. The hangup then,
presumably, is that this person is lacking one or more of time,
knowledge, or motivation to actually package the software. If it is
knowledge, then what we really want is a "please teach me how to
package software X" list. We might be able to do something about
*that*.
Lack of time or motivation is, of course, beyond our ability to help.
--
Jerry James
http://www.jamezone.org/
12:28 a.m.
Hi Jakube,
Jakub Kadlčík <jkadlcik(a)redhat.com> writes:
Hello,
TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be
packaged in Fedora?
As others already commented: I don't think that this is a good
idea.
Packaging a program for others where you have no real personal
interest/benefit/buy-in is in my experience not sustainable in the long
haul, besides nearly no one doing it (probably for that reason). I would
actually even say that having such a list is harmful to the project as
it would suggest that someone will eventually package the app, thereby
more or less guaranteeing disappointment.
Cheers,
Dan
1:41 p.m.
Thank you for the feedback. It all makes sense, and I agree with your
points, so I won't put any more effort into this idea. I am also glad,
that this discussion happened and the idea won't be itching my brain
anymore.
Jakub
On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:31 AM Dan Čermák
<dan.cermak(a)cgc-instruments.com> wrote:
Hi Jakube,
Jakub Kadlčík <jkadlcik(a)redhat.com> writes:
> Hello,
>
> TL;DR What about a place where people could ask for something to be
> packaged in Fedora?
As others already commented: I don't think that this is a good
idea.
Packaging a program for others where you have no real personal
interest/benefit/buy-in is in my experience not sustainable in the long
haul, besides nearly no one doing it (probably for that reason). I would
actually even say that having such a list is harmful to the project as
it would suggest that someone will eventually package the app, thereby
more or less guaranteeing disappointment.
Cheers,
Dan
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7 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Artur Frenszek-Iwicki -
Dan Čermák -
Gary Buhrmaster -
Jakub Kadlcik -
Jakub Kadlčík
-
Jerry James -
Matthew Miller -
Vít Ondruch