On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Muayyad AlSadi <alsadi(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: the bug is already marked as F11Blocker....

no need to clone it, because

On Sun, 2009-03-08 at 19:06 +0200, Muayyad AlSadi wrote: The kernel patch was dropped as it's different from upstream. Somebody has to set the utf8 mode, and the kernel has decided that it should be userspace policy. You should probably email the upstream hal list and ask why it's not upstream there. Richard.

============ note: sorry in advance if I'm a little bit nervous ============ I don't agree, to us [people who need UTF-8] this mean that we should trace fixes in every desktop xfce lxde ...etc. kde people are the worst in internationalization I remember in kde 2.0 that they promised to fix RTL problem in KDE 3.0 and they started to work at 3.0 but it was garbage support it took **years** to get them fixed till 3.5 and when they are almost perfect in 3.5 they drop all the RTL support and started the make same very stupid assumption from zero on 4.x and we have a big pile of RTL problems most of them are due to the same lessons that they should learn from KDE 3.0 just look to this game how does it behave [if you know the game] http://www.linuxac.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6226&stc=1&a... most people who helped KDE project to mature through all the years are bored to repeat all that process, they just gave up and moved to gnome. put yourself in my shoe and you will see things moving backward! why are we moving backward without any reasonable benefit ? why people make the wrong assumptions ? why do we have to discuss trivial things on every project release ? If you want my opinion it's to squeeze upstream kernel developers till they accept the patch "You stupid! Linux is international this is a fact. This world is multinational love it, or leave it" as sharp and as bold as Linus when he shows his ego to force people to default to latin-1 is a very stupid assumption it's double stupid to be assumed in this century were I socialize more to people who are in USA, Europe or even South Africa more than I do with my relatives in the city 20KM away I know that fedorians can do that, yes I'm talking to you Alan! redhat and fedora have sufficient momentum in the kernel development to make that patch accepted. the only argument I got was this <<EOQ Forcing utf8 in the kernel was the wrong idea - see bug 454013 for an example of the problems that caused. Further it made Fedora behave differently from all other Linux distributions when mounting vfat volumes, which is bad. EOQ the Russian person who reported the bug says that he uses but grep '^ru' /usr/share/system-config-language/locale-list ru_RU.UTF-8 utf8 latarcyrheb-sun16 Russian - Русский ru_UA.UTF-8 utf8 latarcyrheb-sun16 Russian (Ukraine) so it's his customization which lead to the problem not the patch there used to be problems with iocharset=utf8, but they were solved by passing utf8 withno iocharset= ============================================== excuse me I was angry, I'll try to be calm in the next section of this mail ============================================== to summarize what have you done by removing this patch 1. you replaced one place of solution into unknown so many possible places of bugs [devicekit, hal, X Y Z desktops, cli commands, unknown number of mount umount desktop applets in less famous WM like window Maker...] 2. you introduced incompatibility with previous fedora releases people who are using previous releases won't be able to see their files correctly [BTW: unlike utf8 which can be validated, latin can't be so it will just produce rubbish if it's invalid] 3. you introduced new incompatibility levels between the same release of fedora [take the possibility of having some file created in one desktop then mounted in another, after logging of or after using live user switch] as for 1. non of the so many introduced bugs are solved yet since I reported them in F10 betas, I doubt that most can be solved with this mentality as for 2. you preferred to be compatible with upstream or "other distros" rather than fedora regarding upstream, I'm not convinced that fedorians can't upstream such humble a clean patch and if other distros refers to ubuntu have you checked their launchpad to see how many bugs are filed because they don't have that kernel patch as for 3. it reminds me with a joke, some one lost a golden ring in some apartment, and since then he is searching for it in all other apartments in the world. Do you think he could find it ? the ring was lost in the kernel not in hal nor in devicekit and of course not in kde nor gnome patching so many other projects is more stupid than the man in the joke ------- I know that you already made your mind to remove the patch but in this case you should provide a single place that solves the problem for example make both hal have a fdi policy that sources /etc/sysconfig/filesystem to get the values needed to be passed to the kernel when mounting and same thing for DeviceKit to at least make sure that at least kde, gnome and xfce will work out of the box consistently [ah and patch kde not to use utf8 but keeping hals default which sources /etc/sysconfig/filesystem] another joke about two people visiting a relative in the 97th floor on a twin tower, they were using the stairs and just before the 97 floor one of them said I have a bad news and a good news (...) the good news that there is one more floor to go the bad news we are on the wrong tower EOJ so if you solved the problem in hal or devicekit and still have some issues here or there is just like having one more floor *in the wrong tower*

don't tell me about that, I live there they did not drop the support but they reinvented the wheel for example they repeat all the problems in plasma [eg. just look at task bar/kicker] the menu is always on left the favorites menu is always on left and because plasma ias used in every thing it's like dropping rtl support tables and trees in kde or Qt have RTL problems ...etc. take a look into this http://www.linuxac.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6236&stc=1&a... they are too many http://www.linuxac.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21197 it seems that you don't play that game in that game you need to connect the terminals into the server [earth planet] if you do the terminal monitors turns on look to the monitor in the middle it's not connected to any thing but it on. can you guess why ?

Kevin Kofler wrote: Two better questions are: - Should this be mirrored /at all/? (I think not, the same way I don't see why you would mirror e.g. mahjongg, chess, tetris, or any of a myriad other games that aren't text-based.) - Has anyone reported this to the KDE devs? Otherwise how do you expect it to get fixed? -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- Microsoft has become the next IBM; a dinosaur struggling to survive in the age of more able-to-adapt mammals (FLOSS). It remains to be seen if they'll be able to adapt before they go extinct.

Muayyad AlSadi wrote: The only way these bugs will ever get fixed is if they get reported to https://bugs.kde.org/ . Posting them on some mailing list most KDE developers don't even read is completely unproductive and unhelpful whining. They may not know about all the RTL issues, but that's exactly why you have to report them! Most developers grew up in environments where text is written from left to right, so we aren't always conscious of the issues involved. Only pointing them out can get them fixed. And I strongly doubt anybody is "happy with that mentality". They just aren't aware that there are any issues because people don't bother reporting them! Yes, because new developers join who are not familiar with the issues yet, and new issues can come up which didn't exist before. It's not that trivial when all the text you've ever read is written LTR, which is the case for most European or American developers. Unfortunately, most of us cannot read Arabic or Hebrew, nor did we grow up reading the writings of Leonardo da Vinci (which are written in mirrored Italian). ;-( Well, the KNetWalk issue is actually the opposite, they're mirroring coordinates where they shouldn't. Where graphics are involved, there's no magic, it cannot be automatically determined whether they should be mirrored or not. And guess what, in modern UIs (especially things like Plasma, games etc.), there _will_ be graphics involved. So left/right orientation is something which has to be accunted for carefully and explicitly. Well, in KDE there will be no bug because KDE takes care of mounting devices with the utf8 flag. (-; sdrager dniK Kevin Kofler