Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
This way we would avoid showing the grub menu, but still give the users to trigger a reboot into the grub menu .
The main reason against such an approach is - obvioulsy - the need for a reboot. And on the other side I dunno if dracut is capable to modify grub2's config (to display the menu upon the next boot)
- fabian
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again.
On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:52:30 +0100 "Nicolas Mailhot" nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again.
+1
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is: * no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it * no submenus in the boot-menu * the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second * no rhgb * no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
On 2013-03-13 00:06, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation
that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is:
- no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it
- no submenus in the boot-menu
- the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second
- no rhgb
- no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
+1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is:
- no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it
- no submenus in the boot-menu
- the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second
- no rhgb
- no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora boot process MUST look pretty!
Dan
Am 12.03.2013 15:37, schrieb Dan Mashal:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is:
- no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it
- no submenus in the boot-menu
- the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second
- no rhgb
- no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
Fedora boot process MUST look pretty!
says who? AND WHAT IS UGLY IN A KERNEL-MENU?
the only thing to which this new shiny attitude hide anything from the users will lead is that the next generation of users stay dumb beginners
who will answer the questions here in 10 years?
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 15:37, schrieb Dan Mashal:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: > Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure that's possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared to grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be good. (grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and people who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is:
- no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it
- no submenus in the boot-menu
- the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second
- no rhgb
- no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
Fedora boot process MUST look pretty!
says who? AND WHAT IS UGLY IN A KERNEL-MENU?
the only thing to which this new shiny attitude hide anything from the users will lead is that the next generation of users stay dumb beginners
who will answer the questions here in 10 years?
I was joking. :)
You can always yum remove plymouth.
In fact we were even *gasp* looking at replacing plymouth with our own theme for laughs.
Dan
+1 On Mar 12, 2013 7:37 AM, "Dan Mashal" dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit :
Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:
Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present?
I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs
to
the screen at this point in the boot process? I'm not quite sure
that's
possible? Another thing with translations is they take up additional disk space and I think (don't quote me on this, maybe Peter or one of the other grub experts could speak up) grub2 is a bit chubby compared
to
grub, but its space usage is a concern so to not have to have all the translation files for the languages we support would definitely be
good.
(grub2's girth is one of the reasons - on upstream's recommendation - that we don't allow installing the bootloader to a partition now.)
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
Plymouth is not a mandatory boot process element right now, precisely because people who cared about fast boot found it unnecessary, and
people
who cared about maintainability also found it got in the way. Please do not advocate hardwiring it again
plymouth is a no-go as requirement
"rd.plymouth=0 plymouth.enable=0" are my first kernel params on a lot of
machines
[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /etc/dracut.conf.d/90-plymouth.conf omit_dracutmodules+="plymouth"
is present on ANY machine i maintain
the only thing i want on a machine is:
- no graphical stuff at boot time, not any of it
- no submenus in the boot-menu
- the kernel list dispalyed for 1 second
- no rhgb
- no quiet
why?
because i want to see what me system does if i look how it boots up within 15 seconds and i want to face ANY possible warning nobody cares especially after a upgrade
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora boot process MUST look pretty!
Dan
devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote:
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when we wanted to add a messagse to fedup)
~m
On 12 March 2013 09:00, Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote:
What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader"
This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when we wanted to add a messagse to fedup)
One of the reasons why the keys to be pressed were displayed on various BIOS etc in the old days was that while the rest of the text might not be readable, the Function keys were (nearly) always labeled F1->F12 so a non-native speaker would know that pressing the key did something. At that point some sort of OS could be available that could be customized to a local language was more available. It worked for many cases because having done technical support via Babelfish for several years the parts that were easiest to get across were the items that looked exactly like a keyboard even if it wasn't the native language one. And the most confusion was when they couldn't see something easily to get native help.
My belief is that one should engineer to make the 1% of the time when stuff is horribly broken the easiest to debug even if it impacts the 99% in some cosmetic way. Because most people don't remember the 99%, they remember that 1% and make it in their mind the 99%. Understanding that bit of human psychology is what made technical support livable..
-
Dan Mashal -
Fabian Deutsch -
Frank Murphy -
Máirín Duffy -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Philip Rhoades -
Reindl Harald -
Richard Vickery -
Stephen John Smoogen