9:10 a.m.
For module maintainers, module users, and flatpak maintainers:
Fedora infrustructure has long-standing problems with supporting modules.
Namely, MBS is unable to build modules with deep dependencies
<https://pagure.io/fm-orchestrator/issue/1759> and Bodhi is unable to accept
multicontext modules <https://github.com/fedora-infra/bodhi/issues/4198>;.
This results into inability to support affected modules. E.g. it's impossible
to build perl-CGI:5.54 for Fedora 39, and it's impossible to update
perl-Date-Manip:6.86 in stable Fedoras.
Because nobody has tried to tackle these infrastructure deficiencies, module
maintainers have hard times to support the modules, and as a result users can
expect dropping of numerous modules from Fedora. If there remain no modules,
Fedora project might consider removing Modularity from Fedora infrastructure.
That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like Flatpaks
whose build process is based on modularity.
-- Petr
10:20 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 8 2023 at 04:10:15 PM +0100, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like
Flatpaks
whose build process is based on modularity.
I can address this. We intend to stop depending on modularity so that
we can reliably build Flatpaks even when modularity is broken.
Michael
3:48 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 10:20:21AM -0600, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
On Wed, Mar 8 2023 at 04:10:15 PM +0100, Petr Pisar
<ppisar(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like Flatpaks
> whose build process is based on modularity.
I can address this. We intend to stop depending on modularity so that we can
reliably build Flatpaks even when modularity is broken.
Naive question: how does the approach with flatpak-builder would
compare to the current one with modularity?
Zbyszek
9:14 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 9 2023 at 09:48:11 AM +0000, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
<zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> wrote:
Naive question: how does the approach with flatpak-builder would
compare to the current one with modularity?
Well it would certainly look different, but I did not suggest that we
would use flatpak-builder. Maybe Owen can answer questions regarding
Fedora flatpaks.
2:01 a.m.
On 08/03/2023 16:10, Petr Pisar wrote:
That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like
Flatpaks
whose build process is based on modularity.
We should start building Flatpaks natively using flatpak-builder from
standard build manifests.
--
Sincerely,
Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)
3:22 p.m.
On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 10:12, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com> wrote:
For module maintainers, module users, and flatpak maintainers:
Fedora infrustructure has long-standing problems with supporting modules.
Namely, MBS is unable to build modules with deep dependencies
<https://pagure.io/fm-orchestrator/issue/1759> and Bodhi is unable to
accept
multicontext modules <https://github.com/fedora-infra/bodhi/issues/4198>;.
This results into inability to support affected modules. E.g. it's
impossible
to build perl-CGI:5.54 for Fedora 39, and it's impossible to update
perl-Date-Manip:6.86 in stable Fedoras.
Because nobody has tried to tackle these infrastructure deficiencies,
module
maintainers have hard times to support the modules, and as a result users
can
expect dropping of numerous modules from Fedora. If there remain no modules,
Fedora project might consider removing Modularity from Fedora
infrastructure.
Most of the work needed to get these worked on successfully requires:
1. Nothing being higher priority for Fedora Infra, Fedora Releng, Red Hat
MBS team, and other parts of the build system that this ties into.
2. Schedules being aligned between the 3-4 teams that this is a priority to
work on for a 4 to 6 week period.
Most of the Fedora Infrastructure and Releng work is tied up in:
1. getting a daily compose out the door (Monday through Sunday).
2. getting a release out in some form (beta/final) every 12 weeks.
3. keeping 40+ services over a couple hundred systems working to meet 1&&2.
The above is done by about 2.5 people (counting multiple volunteers as 1
person). This goes up at times and goes down but for the last year has been
about that.
I don't think this is unique to Fedora Infra/Releng. The teams which have
supported MBS, Koji, PDC, ODCS, etc have their own goals they need to
accomplish and it is hard to get their time to sync up with the usual short
periods that Fedora Infra can 'slow-down' (usually after a release).
I don't have any easy solutions on how to fix this. Even 'turn off
modularity' isn't probably easy. Too many services are tied into the Fedora
build system framework in a way that expects something from other parts
even if they don't seem connected. You turn off one service, and you find
out that 3 other things don't work weeks later because they expected some
sort of 'heart-beat' or some other message.
That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like
Flatpaks
whose build process is based on modularity.
-- Petr
_______________________________________________
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--
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
2:54 a.m.
The above is done by about 2.5 people (counting multiple volunteers as 1
person). This goes up at times and goes down but for the last year has been
about that.
An aside - how/where does one volunteer to help releng?
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 at 21:22, Stephen Smoogen <ssmoogen(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 10:12, Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> For module maintainers, module users, and flatpak maintainers:
>>
>> Fedora infrustructure has long-standing problems with supporting modules.
>>
>> Namely, MBS is unable to build modules with deep dependencies
>> <https://pagure.io/fm-orchestrator/issue/1759> and Bodhi is unable to
>> accept
>> multicontext modules <https://github.com/fedora-infra/bodhi/issues/4198>;.
>>
>> This results into inability to support affected modules. E.g. it's
>> impossible
>> to build perl-CGI:5.54 for Fedora 39, and it's impossible to update
>> perl-Date-Manip:6.86 in stable Fedoras.
>>
>> Because nobody has tried to tackle these infrastructure deficiencies,
>> module
>> maintainers have hard times to support the modules, and as a result users
>> can
>
> expect dropping of numerous modules from Fedora. If there remain no
>> modules,
>> Fedora project might consider removing Modularity from Fedora
>> infrastructure.
>>
>>
> Most of the work needed to get these worked on successfully requires:
> 1. Nothing being higher priority for Fedora Infra, Fedora Releng, Red Hat
> MBS team, and other parts of the build system that this ties into.
> 2. Schedules being aligned between the 3-4 teams that this is a priority
> to work on for a 4 to 6 week period.
>
> Most of the Fedora Infrastructure and Releng work is tied up in:
> 1. getting a daily compose out the door (Monday through Sunday).
> 2. getting a release out in some form (beta/final) every 12 weeks.
> 3. keeping 40+ services over a couple hundred systems working to meet
> 1&&2.
The above is done by about 2.5 people (counting multiple volunteers as 1
person). This goes up at times and goes down but for the last year has been
about that.
>
> I don't think this is unique to Fedora Infra/Releng. The teams which have
> supported MBS, Koji, PDC, ODCS, etc have their own goals they need to
> accomplish and it is hard to get their time to sync up with the usual short
> periods that Fedora Infra can 'slow-down' (usually after a release).
>
> I don't have any easy solutions on how to fix this. Even 'turn off
> modularity' isn't probably easy. Too many services are tied into the Fedora
> build system framework in a way that expects something from other parts
> even if they don't seem connected. You turn off one service, and you find
> out that 3 other things don't work weeks later because they expected some
> sort of 'heart-beat' or some other message.
>
>
>
>> That could also affect seemingly unrelated parts of Fedora like Flatpaks
>> whose build process is based on modularity.
>>
>> -- Petr
>> _______________________________________________
>> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
>> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>> List Archives:
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Do not reply to spam, report it:
>> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>>
>
>
> --
> Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
> Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
> -- Ian MacClaren
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
11:49 a.m.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 08:54:06AM +0000, Chris Kelley wrote:
>
> The above is done by about 2.5 people (counting multiple volunteers as 1
> person). This goes up at times and goes down but for the last year has been
> about that.
An aside - how/where does one volunteer to help releng?
Hang out in the #fedora-releng / #releng:fedoraproject.org room and ask
questions and offer to do things. Join in on the weekly meeting in
#fedora-meeting-3 / meeting-3:fedoraproject.org at 16UTC. Chime in on
tickets if you would like to help with them
( https://pagure.io/releng/)
Help debug failed compose issues by investigating things at
https://pagure.io/releng/failed-composes/issues
Tons of things to do, depending on your skillsets and desire.
kevin
423
days inactive
425
days old
7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Chris Kelley -
Kevin Fenzi -
Michael Catanzaro -
Petr Pisar -
Stephen Smoogen -
Vitaly Zaitsev -
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek