=================================== #fedora-meeting: FESCO (2010-10-20) ===================================

Meeting started by nirik at 18:30:10 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-10-20/fesco.2010-10-20-...

Meeting summary --------------- * init process (nirik, 18:30:11)

* Updates policy / Vision implementation status (nirik, 18:33:36)

* #475 fesco ok with kde-sig requesting custom f12 koji target to make an unofficial kde-4.5 update? (nirik, 18:40:37) * AGREED: request granted. Please untag when done. Will try and gather more resources for koji disk moving forward. (nirik, 18:56:23) * AGREED: This feature is approved. (nirik, 19:01:15) * AGREED: This feature is approved. (nirik, 19:03:17) * AGREED: This feature is approved. (nirik, 19:05:57)

* Open Floor (nirik, 19:06:21) * LINK: http://torrent.fedoraproject.org:6969/ (nirik, 19:09:38) * AGREED: Will drop split cd media in f15. (nirik, 19:15:16)

Meeting ended at 19:22:08 UTC. -- 18:30:10 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2010-10-20) 18:30:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 20 18:30:10 2010 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:30:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:30:11 <nirik> #meetingname fesco 18:30:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 18:30:11 <nirik> #chair mclasen notting nirik SMParrish kylem ajax pjones cwickert mjg59 18:30:11 <nirik> #topic init process 18:30:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: SMParrish ajax cwickert kylem mclasen mjg59 nirik notting pjones 18:30:19 <mjg59> Afternoon 18:31:09 <nirik> I think notting was going to be traveling today. 18:31:13 <pjones> yeah 18:31:21 <nirik> not sure if mclasen was going to be able to make it or not. 18:31:30 <ajax> 18:31:38 * SMParrish here 18:33:04 <nirik> ok, I see ajax, kylem, mjg59, nirik, and pjones here. mclasen, notting, cwickert absent. 18:33:31 <nirik> so, I guess lets go ahead... 18:33:36 <nirik> #topic Updates policy / Vision implementation status 18:33:36 <nirik> .fesco 351 18:33:36 <nirik> .fesco 382 18:33:37 <zodbot> nirik: #351 (Create a policy for updates) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/351 18:33:41 <zodbot> nirik: #382 (Implementing Stable Release Vision) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/382 18:33:50 <nirik> our fine updates topic. 18:33:58 <nirik> SMParrish: any news on stats gathering? 18:34:58 <SMParrish> nirik: Unfortunately no. Been a hectic week here ( 18:35:05 <nirik> yeah, I know the feeling. 18:35:21 <nirik> would anyone have time in the upcoming week to help work on it? perhaps adding a few folks could get it moving along? 18:36:01 <SMParrish> Help would be appreciated. I will be out of town all weekend attending OLPC-SFO so I wont have time until I get back on Tuesday 18:36:15 * nirik is also going to be traveling from tomorrow->sunday. 18:37:48 <ajax> i'd volunteer but my week is pretty booked as it is 18:37:56 <nirik> ok, well, I guess we will get to it as we get time. Perhaps we could brainstorm some in ticket? or ask luke what is generated now and go from there? 18:38:13 <SMParrish> nirik: sounds like a good idea 18:38:32 <nirik> ok. 18:39:01 <nirik> Also, we have pending here: enforcement (save for last) and possibly doing a enhancement/features repo... (cwickert was going to work on that) 18:39:25 <nirik> anything else on updates for now? or shall we move on? 18:40:22 <nirik> ok, moving on then... 18:40:37 <nirik> #topic #475 fesco ok with kde-sig requesting custom f12 koji target to make an unofficial kde-4.5 update? 18:40:38 <nirik> .fesco 475 18:40:38 <zodbot> nirik: #475 (fesco ok with kde-sig requesting custom f12 koji target to make an unofficial kde-4.5 update?) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/475 18:40:58 <ajax> go wild. 18:41:06 * rdieter lurks for any questions 18:41:07 * nirik has no particular issue with it. 18:41:26 <ajax> i'm generally in favor of targetted koji tags like that 18:41:34 <mjg59> Yes, I think this is a good plan 18:41:40 <nirik> rdieter: would it build from some other branch? or ? 18:42:10 <dgilmore> as teh person who looks after koji, i do think we need to consider the stroage and extra load that it will cause 18:42:18 <rdieter> nirik: I'm going to try that first yeah, but will do whatever it takes 18:42:50 <ajax> dgilmore: do we have any guidance on what kind of added loads are acceptable for this kind of thing? 18:42:51 <mjg59> dgilmore: If it's an issue, then I think we should ask the board for resources to support this 18:43:03 <rdieter> dgilmore: I promise to --background everything 18:43:18 <dgilmore> rdieter: that really doesnt matter 18:43:19 <mjg59> dgilmore: This kind of thing is a natural outcome of the updates policy - I'm pretty certain that we'll be seeing more examples of updates like this 18:43:40 <dgilmore> im fighting a loosing fight to keep more than 10% free on /mnt/koji 18:43:49 <dgilmore> the builds take up disk space 18:43:52 <dgilmore> and KDE is big 18:44:00 * nirik gets a phone call. 18:44:09 <mjg59> dgilmore: Ok. Should we be asking the board for more disk? 18:44:09 <SMParrish> dgilmore: If I understand it tag will be temporary 18:44:19 <rdieter> dgilmore: when we're done, I don't mind garbage collecting it all, if that matters 18:44:32 <dgilmore> for something not officially part of fedora i have issue with the extra disk space it will use 18:44:34 <pjones> we should get rid of CDs in F15 so we don't use as much space. 18:44:49 <mjg59> dgilmore: ^ re board 18:44:50 <dgilmore> pjones: they dont live on that filesystem 18:45:11 <dgilmore> nfs01.phx2.fedoraproject.org:/ 9.9T 8.6T 857G 92% /mnt/koj 18:45:44 <dgilmore> rdieter: builds would all have to manually be untagged to get properlly cleaned up 18:46:23 <dgilmore> mjg59: its not just the disk on /mnt/koji but also its backup 18:46:43 <dgilmore> i can allocate more disk to /mnt/koji but then we can not back it up 18:46:58 <nirik> dgilmore: is that scratch builds too? 18:46:59 <rdieter> dgilmore: sure, I was planning on untagging it all when done anyway 18:47:20 <dgilmore> nirik: scratch builds last for only 2 weeks 18:47:46 <nirik> yeah, I know, but was just wondering if we could move them off that fs... since backing them up seems pointless to me. 18:47:47 <dgilmore> all im asking is that people dont just say sure do it sounds great 18:48:01 <dgilmore> but that they consider the ramifications of yoru actions 18:48:02 <mjg59> dgilmore: If you're resource constrained then we need to provide more resources 18:48:07 <mjg59> dgilmore: Because we're going to have more of these 18:48:52 <nirik> well, or if we could split them out somehow so they don't affect things like backups, etc. 18:49:41 <dgilmore> nirik: not possible 18:49:47 <nirik> bummer. 18:50:25 <nirik> anyhow, could we handle this particular request? builds for f12, untagged/removed after they are all done? 18:50:31 <dgilmore> all the builds land under /mnt/koji/packages except for scratch builds which go to /mnt/koji/scratch 18:50:50 <dgilmore> nirik: if they get untagged they will get removed by koji-gc 18:50:58 <dgilmore> after a time period 18:52:09 <dgilmore> thats all 18:52:11 <nirik> right, so can we do this now? or do we need to look at trying to get more resources? or ? 18:53:04 <ajax> we could get actual numbers for this 18:53:06 <dgilmore> you can do it just be aware that /mnt/koji is a finite resource 18:53:25 <dgilmore> and im contsantly batling to free up space on it 18:53:36 <nirik> dgilmore: yeah, agreed that we should consider these requests carefully, not free for all. 18:53:44 <dgilmore> ajax: we have 857G free right now 18:54:18 <dgilmore> if we get more disk for its backup i can increase the space there. but its still finite 18:54:23 <ajax> dgilmore: that sounds like an issue we need to continue to address. it'd be interesting to know what the worst offenders are (or if it's just a matter of a million paper cuts) 18:54:31 <nirik> so, any objections to granting this specific request and looking perhaps at more resources at the same time? 18:54:42 <mjg59> +1 18:54:42 <ajax> nirik: fine with me 18:54:45 <SMParrish> +1 18:54:50 <dgilmore> ajax: kernel 18:55:03 <ajax> heh, not surprised. 18:55:16 <dgilmore> though KDE uses alot also 18:55:27 <nirik> openoffice? 18:55:29 * dgilmore did look it up 6 months or so ago 18:55:38 <dgilmore> OOo uses alot also 18:55:48 <dgilmore> I get some numbers together if anyone is intrested 18:55:48 <nirik> anyhow, sounds like we want to grant this and try and come up with more resources moving forward. 18:55:55 <nirik> dgilmore: that might be good. 18:55:59 <ajax> dgilmore: please. 18:56:23 <nirik> #agreed request granted. Please untag when done. Will try and gather more resources for koji disk moving forward. 18:56:44 <nirik> ok, so we have some f15 features: 18:56:46 <nirik> #476 F15Feature: LZMA_for_Live_Images - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LZMA_for_Live_Images 18:56:46 <nirik> .fesco 476 18:56:48 <zodbot> nirik: #476 (F15Feature: LZMA_for_Live_Images - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LZMA_for_Live_Images) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/476 18:57:12 <mjg59> +1 to this, given that it's conditional on the kernel patches 18:57:16 * brunowolff is here for questions 18:57:17 <kylem> yeah. 18:57:24 <mjg59> I can't see any reason to say no 18:57:26 <nirik> right. +1 here too... hopefully the patches land this time. 18:57:35 <kylem> bruno has been really helpful with the squashfs stuff, it's really only contingent on the upstreaming of the squashfs patches. 18:58:06 <nirik> nice. Other votes? 18:58:56 * nirik sees +2 so far? 18:59:01 <pjones> I'm +1 but only because I think lzma squashfs images are good for us in other places. 18:59:19 <kylem> hrm, do we use squashfs on the non-live images as well? 18:59:22 <ajax> +1, easy backout, nice win if it does work. 18:59:39 <nirik> kylem: sorta 18:59:48 <nirik> ie, all the rpms on there are xz compressed. 19:00:18 <nirik> we could possibly move initramfs to use it, but then I'm sure that would break xen domU again. ;) 19:00:26 <kylem> right. 19:00:29 <ajax> xen can htfu 19:00:38 <pjones> nirik: also install.img is squashfs, though with any luck it will go away. 19:00:56 <nirik> so, so +4? or kylem were you a +1 above? 19:00:57 <kylem> ahh. 19:01:01 <kylem> i am +1 yes 19:01:15 <nirik> #agreed This feature is approved. 19:01:26 <nirik> thanks for all the work on this brunowolff 19:01:31 <nirik> #477 F15Feature: systemd - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd 19:01:31 <nirik> .fesco 477 19:01:32 <zodbot> nirik: #477 (F15Feature: systemd - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/477 19:01:51 <kylem> pjones, ah, so this would be helpful for reducing our cd space consumption that we're currently dealing with? :) 19:02:13 <mjg59> +1 to systemd, given that it's implemented 19:02:19 <pjones> kylem: possibly, yeah 19:02:20 <nirik> +1 here. I see no reason not to go for it in f15. 19:02:47 <ajax> +1 to systemd again 19:02:59 <SMParrish> +1 as well for F15 19:03:12 <pjones> oh sure, why not, +1 19:03:17 <nirik> #agreed This feature is approved. 19:03:18 <kylem> +1. 19:03:37 <nirik> #478 F15Feature: var-run-tmpfs - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/var-run-tmpfs 19:03:37 <nirik> .fesco 478 19:03:38 <zodbot> nirik: #478 (F15Feature: var-run-tmpfs - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/var-run-tmpfs) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/478 19:04:08 <mjg59> The rest of the world has already been doing this 19:04:11 <nirik> yep. 19:04:18 <nirik> sounds good to me. Make it so. +1 19:04:19 <mjg59> So, again, +1 19:04:29 <ajax> +1, sure, why not 19:05:03 <kylem> +1 (why does a one line addition to fstab need to be a feature) 19:05:49 <SMParrish> +1 19:05:50 <nirik> some coordination between maintainers, some docs/press about the change that would confuse some small number of people. 19:05:57 <nirik> #agreed This feature is approved. 19:06:21 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 19:06:29 <nirik> Look, it's a short meeting. ;) 19:06:34 <ajax> \o/ 19:06:35 <kylem> cool. 19:06:40 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor today? 19:06:48 <pjones> yeah, I think we should get rid of CDs for F15. 19:07:07 <nirik> ...again. ;) 19:07:14 <pjones> F14 i386 disc1 didn't work without dropping the PAE kernel. 19:07:29 <ajax> by which you mean, the split media set (and not netinst)? 19:07:36 <pjones> The split media stuff is all complete hacks, and there are plenty of deficiencies in it 19:07:38 <pjones> ajax: yeah 19:07:49 <pjones> I think it should be DVD or netinst with nothing in between. 19:07:52 * nirik is ok with that in principal. I'm sure people will complain. 19:08:09 <ajax> their suffering is caused by desire... 19:08:19 <nirik> there would also be live media thats still cd sized. 19:08:27 <mjg59> Yeah 19:08:28 <pjones> yeah. 19:08:35 <ajax> well, maybe. we've toyed with making live media bigger than a CD before 19:08:37 <nirik> (well, provided there is something like the spins sig and we make them for f15) 19:08:45 <ajax> maybe one of these days we'll man up and do it 19:08:49 * hicham hated the 5 or 6 CDs that used to be offered for install 19:08:54 <mjg59> When we hand out media, it's DVD 19:09:13 <mjg59> I'd be amazed if anyone uses the split set 19:09:25 <mjg59> And couldn't just use netinst instead 19:09:36 <nirik> yeah 19:09:38 <nirik> http://torrent.fedoraproject.org:6969/ 19:10:14 <nirik> more than 10-1 cd to dvd 19:10:39 <ajax> that's higher than i would have expected. but not enough higher to change my mind. 19:10:53 <mjg59> So as many people downloaded the source DVD as downloaded the CD set, roughly 19:10:55 <pjones> that's for i686 - x86_64 is the other way 19:10:57 <nirik> anyhow, perhaps we should float the idea to rel-eng/other groups ? or did we want to vote now... 19:11:21 <ajax> pjones: no? 63700:7012 for DVD:CD for amd64 19:11:48 <mjg59> ajax: nirik said cd to dvd 19:11:53 <pjones> ajax: hence "the other way" 19:11:55 <Oxf13> oh h ai 19:11:56 <mjg59> I think he was mistaken 19:12:08 <ajax> anyway. ack to the concept, if some other group has a problem with it they can have a problem with it. 19:12:36 <Oxf13> releng has no problem with dropping split media 19:12:40 <Oxf13> in fact, we'd strongly urge it 19:12:54 <nirik> perhaps there will be less flame this time... 19:12:55 <Oxf13> fragile code base that breaks often in ways that are rather non-obvious 19:13:07 <Oxf13> boatloads of duplicated content on mirrors to pass around 19:13:11 <ajax> qa even gets one less test case! 19:13:25 <Oxf13> ajax: one multiple less 19:14:10 <nirik> ok, so sounds like we could vote on it now? or do we want to gather more flames^w info and vote next week? 19:14:19 <ajax> votey vote vote vote. 19:14:28 <ajax> +1 die split media die this isn't windows 3.1 19:14:39 <kylem> but but but but floppies 19:14:43 <mjg59> Yeah, this is as bad as getting boxes of 40 floppies 19:14:46 <mjg59> +1 to death 19:14:58 <SMParrish> +1 to getting rid of them 19:14:59 <nirik> +1 for dropping split media. We can point people to boot.iso or any live spins that are cd sized. 19:15:16 <nirik> #agreed Will drop split cd media in f15. 19:15:20 <mjg59> kylem: ? 19:15:22 <mjg59> Ok 19:15:27 <mjg59> Well, that was easy 19:15:28 <nirik> ok, anything else today? 19:15:31 <kylem> +1. 19:15:31 <Oxf13> plenty of time for the community to respond and time to revisit before alpha. 19:15:35 * pjones is +1 19:15:36 <mjg59> It's amazing what we can get away with when we don't announce it in advance 19:15:42 <kylem> can jigdo just sort this out for the 10 people who care? 19:15:47 <Oxf13> since we're in a killing mood, how about we kill spins too? 19:15:52 <nirik> kylem: doubtfull 19:15:56 <Oxf13> kylem: oh god, jigdo 19:15:59 <Oxf13> please no more. 19:16:03 <kylem> lol. 19:16:30 <kylem> Oxf13, in the sense that they could take the netinst, and add a local cache of packages to it somehow. 19:16:59 <kylem> meh, i don't care, i don't even owna machine with an optical drive rigth now. ;-P 19:17:14 <Oxf13> for that to work, we'd have to have created the split media to run jigdo against. Defeating the purpose :) 19:17:30 <kylem> lol. fair. 19:17:39 <nirik> The folks who want split media (or so I heard last time we did this): poor network connect, old machine with no dvd drive. 19:17:53 <kylem> should i ask if we can drop !PAE while we're on this roll? :) 19:18:00 * kylem ducks. 19:18:32 <mjg59> Given that Pentium M is almost always on i855 and that doesn't work, I can't see any real harm... 19:18:33 <nirik> I'd like to see a list of what cpus that drops before voing on it. It's unclear to me which... does that kill OLPC? 19:18:34 <kylem> (i'm only kidding. really. don't vote on it, i don't not dare you. ;-P) 19:18:55 <kylem> nirik, dunno cjb is in taipei and my geode is off atm. 19:19:14 <nirik> right, so I think if you want file a ticket with more info and we can revisit next week? 19:19:23 <kylem> nirik, we can discuss it at a future meeting, the impact of keeping it isn't that bad. 19:19:27 <kylem> *nod* 19:19:54 * cjb appears 19:20:03 <nirik> ha. 19:20:15 <cjb> geode doesn't need PAE, AFAIK 19:20:16 <nirik> If nothing else will close out the meeting in a minute. 19:20:22 <cjb> we ship with max. 1GB RAM 19:20:37 <kylem> cjb, yeah, but does it support it? 19:20:39 <mjg59> cjb: But does it have it? 19:20:42 <mjg59> If we drop !PAE... 19:21:16 <kylem> not shipping PAE by default means we don't ship NX by default. 19:21:26 <kylem> anyway, we can discuss it later. :) 19:22:03 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone! 19:22:08 <nirik> #endmeeting