Since test1 and FUDcon there's been a lot of feedback on what media sets we should actually build, test and distribute by default. It's pretty clear that the mix of "desktop bits without any development" didn't really fit the needs of a lot of our users. And the incredibly long thread about what belongs in a server spin showed that we don't really have a good handle on what use cases we're actually trying to fill with it.
Given this, the board stepped back to think a bit about what we're trying to achieve and what the problems we were trying to fix. The list was pretty short:
1. Must provide a way for people to do their own custom versions including packages from all of the Fedora universe. 2. Want to provide at least one installable "single CD Fedora" to help in parts of the world with less bandwidth 3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases:
* Desktop environment * Developer use * Simple LAMP server
4. Try to be as little of a burden on our mirror and testing infrastructure as possible.
Given the above, we'd like to look at doing a somewhat different set of bits for Fedora 7 than was previously in the plan. But, we're still open to feedback to change things somewhat. The on the table things are:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case. * Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure. * Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
Also, Rex is continuing to lead the efforts for the Fedora 7 KDE release and hopefully the Fedora 7 KDE LiveCD.
This feels like it'll get us to a place that's reasonable for Fedora 7 and to where we can then actually get experimentation done with "hey, how can I get a single CD" rather than putting Fedora 7 on the line for the experimentation.
Comments? Flames? ...
Jeremy
On 2/15/07, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
Since test1 and FUDcon there's been a lot of feedback on what media sets we should actually build, test and distribute by default. It's pretty clear that the mix of "desktop bits without any development" didn't really fit the needs of a lot of our users. And the incredibly long thread about what belongs in a server spin showed that we don't really have a good handle on what use cases we're actually trying to fill with it.
Given this, the board stepped back to think a bit about what we're trying to achieve and what the problems we were trying to fix. The list was pretty short:
1. Must provide a way for people to do their own custom versions including packages from all of the Fedora universe. 2. Want to provide at least one installable "single CD Fedora" to help in parts of the world with less bandwidth 3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases: * Desktop environment * Developer use * Simple LAMP server
- Try to be as little of a burden on our mirror and testing infrastructure as possible.
Given the above, we'd like to look at doing a somewhat different set of bits for Fedora 7 than was previously in the plan. But, we're still open to feedback to change things somewhat. The on the table things are:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case. * Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure. * Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
Also, Rex is continuing to lead the efforts for the Fedora 7 KDE release and hopefully the Fedora 7 KDE LiveCD.
This feels like it'll get us to a place that's reasonable for Fedora 7 and to where we can then actually get experimentation done with "hey, how can I get a single CD" rather than putting Fedora 7 on the line for the experimentation.
Sounds to me live several moves in the right direction.
Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs: "This would be the most at-risk and
the most likely to fall off due to time pressure."
i'm not aware of whats required to do this, but the concept sounds simple and not time consuming (use teh standard DVD and make 1+ DVDs with all the other RPMs). could you enlighten me as to what the process and time involved is? NB this is not a criticism, i just need enlightening.
Thanks
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 10:32 -0500, Andrew Parker wrote:
Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs: "This would be the most at-risk and
the most likely to fall off due to time pressure."
i'm not aware of whats required to do this, but the concept sounds simple and not time consuming (use teh standard DVD and make 1+ DVDs with all the other RPMs). could you enlighten me as to what the process and time involved is? NB this is not a criticism, i just need enlightening.
Just putting the bits on the DVD isn't enough to be able to install from it. The metadata on the first disc has to encompass all of them, there has to be some kind of reasonable way to opt-in to the fact that you've got everything, package ordering could be ... interesting. Also, the fact that the metadata will have everything ends up meaning that the memory requirements are higher due to "more bits". Or how do you drop the bits you no longer need.
It's just a few little things that are in high-impact areas so the changes need to be made with a fair bit of care and testing. And given the schedule, I'm not that confident of being able to get them done.
Jeremy
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20:39AM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
And the incredibly long thread about what belongs in a server spin showed that we don't really have a good handle on what use cases we're actually trying to fill with it.
Given that the *vast* majority of my installs/upgrades are on servers, I still think a single-CD server spin would be *extremely* useful. (I started putting DVD-ROM drives in all my servers a while back, but a lot of them are old enough that they only have CD-ROMs.)
That said...
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
I'm sure if there isn't an official server spin, I'll be creating my own.
How hard would it be to make unofficial spins from Fedora contributors available via torrent.fedoraproject.org?
Steve
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 09:37 -0600, Steven Pritchard wrote:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20:39AM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
I'm sure if there isn't an official server spin, I'll be creating my own.
How hard would it be to make unofficial spins from Fedora contributors available via torrent.fedoraproject.org?
Hopefully not hard at all. But they do take space, so a little bit of thought will have to happen on how to pick and choose and avoid using all of the disk space we have available
Jeremy
3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases: * Desktop environment * Developer use
Isn't the "workstation" class an already well established term and preferable to chose?
* Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure.
Going for "Bittorrent" only for certain spins is a -very- bad idea. "Bittorrent" is blocked in certain academic and probably also enterprise environments. It's very frustrating to sit behind a "firewall" and have the necessary bandwith but no images to download. Even if "Fedora" will increase in size, it won't do that by an order of magnitude but only by a factor of 2 or so. After all, the overwhelming part of download bandwith is provided [voluntarily] by mirror sites, so I do not see a problem here. Up to now, I have not been able to download any "FC6" respin image because they can only be retrieved via "Bittorrent" .. #@!&*#
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 16:40 +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
* Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure.
Going for "Bittorrent" only for certain spins is a -very- bad idea. "Bittorrent" is blocked in certain academic and probably also enterprise environments. It's very frustrating to sit behind a "firewall" and have the necessary bandwith but no images to download. Even if "Fedora" will increase in size, it won't do that by an order of magnitude but only by a factor of 2 or so. After all, the overwhelming part of download bandwith is provided [voluntarily] by mirror sites, so I do not see a problem here. Up to now, I have not been able to download any "FC6" respin image because they can only be retrieved via "Bittorrent" .. #@!&*#
Anyone is welcome to take the bits from bittorrent and then provide FTP, HTTP, etc. But the problem is that anything on download.fedora really needs to be mirrored. And we've got a massive amount of content to be mirrored; making it available in more ISO-type chunks is duplication of what they're carrying and makes for less than happy mirror admins.
Jeremy
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:56:13AM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
Anyone is welcome to take the bits from bittorrent and then provide FTP, HTTP, etc. But the problem is that anything on download.fedora really needs to be mirrored. And we've got a massive amount of content to be mirrored; making it available in more ISO-type chunks is duplication of what they're carrying and makes for less than happy mirror admins.
Can we start including jigdo commands in the compose process so that .jigdo and .template files are made available for those who choose to use them? I volunteer to help with this. What parts need to be modified? Pungi?
Chuck Anderson (cra@WPI.EDU) said:
Can we start including jigdo commands in the compose process so that .jigdo and .template files are made available for those who choose to use them? I volunteer to help with this. What parts need to be modified? Pungi?
Does jigdo create bit-identical iso images?
Bill
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:10:29PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Chuck Anderson (cra@WPI.EDU) said:
Can we start including jigdo commands in the compose process so that .jigdo and .template files are made available for those who choose to use them? I volunteer to help with this. What parts need to be modified? Pungi?
Does jigdo create bit-identical iso images?
Yes, that is the intent. During template creation, it searches the big monolithic file (in this case .iso) and finds the bits that match files in the filesystem path that you point it to (tree). It then writes a template that contains only the bits that don't match the tree. During image recreation, it uses the .template and .jigdo to rebuild the original image, gathering the component files from the tree either locally or via FTP/HTTP and filling in the missing bits from the template. The result is a bit-for-bit identical copy of the original image.
Anyone is welcome to take the bits from bittorrent and then provide FTP, HTTP, etc. But the problem is that anything on download.fedora really needs to be mirrored. And we've got a massive amount of content to be mirrored; making it available in more ISO-type chunks is duplication of what they're carrying and makes for less than happy mirror admins.
Jeremy
However, this means that many users will have to rely on the mercy of some volunteers who might step up or not, and they will be essentially cut off from official media supply. This is a big penalty and really prone of driving users away from the distribution. The example of "Fedora Unity" already shows that your suggestion is far fetched and unrealistic. I haven't found a single site yet which is mirroring the respun images.
Joachim Frieben wrote:
Anyone is welcome to take the bits from bittorrent and then provide FTP, HTTP, etc. But the problem is that anything on download.fedora really needs to be mirrored. And we've got a massive amount of content to be mirrored; making it available in more ISO-type chunks is duplication of what they're carrying and makes for less than happy mirror admins.
Jeremy
However, this means that many users will have to rely on the mercy of some volunteers who might step up or not, and they will be essentially cut off from official media supply. This is a big penalty and really prone of driving users away from the distribution.
They could do it themselves instead of being in the "mercy" of volunteers. Enabling everyone to able to customize their own deployment is a very big benefit.
The example of "Fedora Unity" already shows that your suggestion is far fetched and unrealistic. I haven't found a single site yet which is mirroring the respun images.
Do you have any suggestions?
Rahul
The example of "Fedora Unity" already shows that your suggestion is far
fetched and unrealistic. I haven't found a single site yet which is mirroring the respun images.
Do you have any suggestions?
Rahul
Of course, leave things as they are: create install media for all spins and let them mirror by the usual suspects! As I stated in my initial posting, even including "Extras", the global size of the distribution is going to grow not more than a factor of 2, and the creation of particular install classes with specially tailored and reduced media size leads me to the conclusion that (per user) download volumes are even likely to decrease. Again, "Bittorrent" is blocked in many academic and corporate environments, but if somebody comes up with an alternative tool I will be the first to use it.
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 06:25:45PM +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
Again, "Bittorrent" is blocked in many academic and corporate environments, but if somebody comes up with an alternative tool I will be the first to use it.
Have you checked out jigdo that I mentioned in another part of this thread?
Have you checked out jigdo that I mentioned in another part of this thread?
No, I haven't, but right now, I do not see how one would reduce download volume by downloading packages and creating install media locally instead of downloading the media in the first place .. (?)
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 06:38:38PM +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
Have you checked out jigdo that I mentioned in another part of this thread?
No, I haven't, but right now, I do not see how one would reduce download volume by downloading packages and creating install media locally instead of downloading the media in the first place .. (?)
You download the needed packages once and use them to create multiple media sets, instead of downloading multiple media sets which contain duplicated data.
No, I haven't, but right now, I do not see how one would reduce download volume by downloading packages and creating install media locally instead of downloading the media in the first place .. (?)
You download the needed packages once and use them to create multiple media sets, instead of downloading multiple media sets which contain duplicated data.
So what? The same holds for downloading the image files [(1 x "Core" + 1 X "Extras") / arch] and extracting packages locally at will to recompose them for a custom install class [At least if you feel the need to do so. Using an appropriate kickstart file would do the job as well without tinkering with the install media. So, I wonder what this spin frenzy is about]. This corresponds to the standard media as those distributed for earlier releases [albeit doubled by adding "Extras" now]. Moreover, this is the only way to make sure that you have access to all available packages after installing the system without relying on permanent and high speed network access. Btw, I think nobody ever asked for all possible custom or contributed install classes to be mirrored as "ISO" images.
--- Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
No, I haven't, but right now, I do not see how one would reduce download volume by downloading packages and creating install
media
locally instead of downloading the media in the first place ..
(?)
You download the needed packages once and use them to create
multiple
media sets, instead of downloading multiple media sets which
contain
duplicated data.
So what? The same holds for downloading the image files [(1 x "Core"
- 1 X "Extras") / arch] and extracting packages locally at will to
recompose them for a custom install class [At least if you feel the need to do so. Using an appropriate kickstart file would do the job as well without tinkering with the install media. So, I wonder what this spin frenzy is about]. ...
Its about inheritance and variety. In a way that IMO more intuitively/intelligently integrates the kickstart file(s) with the install media.
-dmc/jdog
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Its about inheritance and variety. In a way that IMO more intuitively/intelligently integrates the kickstart file(s) with the install media.
-dmc/jdog
There is nothing intelligent or intuitive about not providing "everything" install media which can be used by interested parties to spin their own subclasses and in the same let others proceed to a standard install without being restricted to a subsample of packages.
--- Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Its about inheritance and variety. In a way that IMO more intuitively/intelligently integrates the kickstart file(s) with the install media.
-dmc/jdog
There is nothing intelligent or intuitive about not providing "everything" install media which can be used by interested parties to spin their own subclasses and in the same let others proceed to a standard install without being restricted to a subsample of packages.
Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist for F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares enough to do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there. (wearing only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication hat).
-dmc/jdog
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Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist for F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares enough to do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there. (wearing only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication hat).
Yes, but the question is wether it will be only accessible by "Bittorrent" or not as expressed earlier in this thread. Btw, a total size 20 GB is largely exaggerated. I would rather expect 2 standard DVD images per architecture [not counting the sources which have always been shipped separately].
On 2/16/07, Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist for F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares enough to do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there. (wearing only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication hat).
Yes, but the question is wether it will be only accessible by "Bittorrent" or not as expressed earlier in this thread. Btw, a total size 20 GB is largely exaggerated. I would rather expect 2 standard DVD images per architecture [not counting the sources which have always been shipped separately].
If I was a betting man, I would put a lot of money down against 2 DVDs - I think you underestimate Extras' size
On Friday 16 February 2007 14:48, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
If I was a betting man, I would put a lot of money down against 2 DVDs
- I think you underestimate Extras' size
A pungi manifest of '*' gives me 2~ DVDs for i386, and most likely 3 DVDs for x86-64 and ppc due to multilib.
On 2/16/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
On Friday 16 February 2007 14:48, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
If I was a betting man, I would put a lot of money down against 2 DVDs
- I think you underestimate Extras' size
A pungi manifest of '*' gives me 2~ DVDs for i386, and most likely 3 DVDs for x86-64 and ppc due to multilib.
-- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora
Okay, and that's just for now. Ideally, extras would grow.
--- Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist
for
F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares enough
to
do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there.
(wearing
only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication
hat).
Yes, but the question is wether it will be only accessible by "Bittorrent" or not as expressed earlier in this thread. Btw, a total size 20 GB is largely exaggerated. I would rather expect 2 standard DVD images per architecture [not counting the sources which have always been shipped separately].
Is "Bittorrent" something different from bittorrent? Honestly, I think this has been said before- but if a set of data available via bittorrent is not popular enough that someone decides to mirror it with http, thats just too bad.
Of course, now I'm thinking about whether its possible to use a combination of fuse, iso9660, bittorrent, and yum to provide a software repository distribution mechanism that doesn't rely on http mirrors with lots of space and bandwidth...
(i.e. think fuse-bittorentfs with an iso9660 layer in there, and a default yum base config that plays well with such a configuration. Probably too much overhead in there, but it sounds tempting to me)
-dmc/jdog
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--- Jane Dogalt jdogalt@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist
for
F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares
enough
to
do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there.
(wearing
only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication
hat).
Yes, but the question is wether it will be only accessible by "Bittorrent" or not as expressed earlier in this thread. Btw, a
total
size 20 GB is largely exaggerated. I would rather expect 2 standard DVD images per architecture [not counting the sources which have always been shipped separately].
Is "Bittorrent" something different from bittorrent? Honestly, I think this has been said before- but if a set of data available via bittorrent is not popular enough that someone decides to mirror it with http, thats just too bad.
Of course, now I'm thinking about whether its possible to use a combination of fuse, iso9660, bittorrent, and yum to provide a software repository distribution mechanism that doesn't rely on http mirrors with lots of space and bandwidth...
(i.e. think fuse-bittorentfs with an iso9660 layer in there, and a default yum base config that plays well with such a configuration. Probably too much overhead in there, but it sounds tempting to me)
And of course to encourage participation in the fedora-skynet-grid you make it an enablable option checkbox right next to the smolt enable checkbox, along with an explanation that if they do so, 10% of their average used CPU time, 10% of their average used disk space, and 10% of their average used network bandwidth, will be used to participate in this grid (just a big bittorrent mirror of the master 30G all-arches F8 snapshot live iso).
Anybody know if bittorrent handles well the case when you have 1000 clients offering 10G of space to communally mirror a 100G file?
That sounds like a "community operating system" to me :)
(for updates, I'm thinking a master server builds a daily snapshot iso, then distributes it to other mirrors via xdelta from the master iso bits of the prior day, then all the clients access via the same bittorrent-iso-fuse-fs thing. Though there are probably a couple holes that need filling in that design...)
bhh...
-dmc/jdog
____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
On Feb 16, 2007, "Joachim Frieben" jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Trust me, "everything" install media as you described will exist for F7. Maybe it'll just be a 20G bluray iso since nobody cares enough to do the whole disc-split-pkgorder stuff, but it'll be there. (wearing only my non-corporate-sponsored bad-track-history prognostication hat).
Yes, but the question is wether it will be only accessible by "Bittorrent" or not as expressed earlier in this thread.
Since individual packages will be available for http, I guess we could at least make jigdo files for the iso images available over http as well.
Then mirrors won't be burdened in space by a multitude of content duplication across even multiple sets packaged as installable media, but people will still be able to obtain such media. Although it will burden mirrors with multiple rpm requests. I'm not sure which would they'd prefer...
On Sat, Feb 17, 2007 at 05:44:15AM -0200, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
Then mirrors won't be burdened in space by a multitude of content duplication across even multiple sets packaged as installable media, but people will still be able to obtain such media. Although it will burden mirrors with multiple rpm requests. I'm not sure which would they'd prefer...
Once you have some of the rpm files locally, you don't need to download them again to recreate a different iso image. You could point jigdo at the local tree, or even a loopback mounted iso image.
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 18:25 +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
The example of "Fedora Unity" already shows that your suggestion is far
fetched and unrealistic. I haven't found a single site yet which is mirroring the respun images.
Do you have any suggestions?
Rahul
Of course, leave things as they are: create install media for all spins and let them mirror by the usual suspects! As I stated in my initial posting, even including "Extras", the global size of the distribution is going to grow not more than a factor of 2,
That's the thing, though -- it _IS_ growing by more than that because of the ISOs; many of the mirrors already carry Extras so the packages aren't really an increase there. Every set of CDs has to contain the kernel for example, which isn't exactly small :)
and the creation of particular install classes with specially tailored and reduced media size leads me to the conclusion that (per user) download volumes are even likely to decrease.
Download volume isn't really the main problem as much as backend storage constraints. Download volume is only really a concern when we've decided "this is the release" and have to get however many gigs of bits to the mirrors in a short period of time so we can release.
Jeremy
O/H Joachim Frieben έγραψε:
3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases: * Desktop environment * Developer use
Isn't the "workstation" class an already well established term and preferable to chose?
Since I've been asked a couple of times why we are planning on shipping a Desktop spin and not a Laptop spin (!), this argument might indeed have a base. It is more accurate (the "opposite" of Server is Workstation, not Dekstop) and more correctly translated to other languages.
Also, I suggest to also ship a *Minimal* spin. For the users who have aDSL (which are probably most of our users), downloading the needed packages via Anaconda is probably quicker than downloading a whole DVD (besides, burning a CD is cheaper than a DVD). I usually download only one CD (which I write on a CDRW) to do the install, so it would be nice if that iso was 100 instead of 600MB. Besides, now that Anaconda has "Extras" support, more users would actually make use of this Minimal spin, since it doesn't reflect to "minimal installation" but more to "minimal download size".
Finally, would it be possible to install from minimal and have it download *updated* packages instead of the default-release ones? This way, installing FC7 4 months after its release would mean downloading only 100MB + 2GB instead of 4GB (DVD) plus 1GB (updates).
My 2 cents.
-d
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 16:01 +0000, Dimitrios Glezos wrote:
Also, I suggest to also ship a *Minimal* spin. For the users who have aDSL (which are probably most of our users), downloading the needed packages via Anaconda is probably quicker than downloading a whole DVD (besides, burning a CD is cheaper than a DVD). I usually download only one CD (which I write on a CDRW) to do the install, so it would be nice if that iso was 100 instead of 600MB. Besides, now that Anaconda has "Extras" support, more users would actually make use of this Minimal spin, since it doesn't reflect to "minimal installation" but more to "minimal download size".
How is this different from the rescue CD which we have today (and will continue to have)?
Finally, would it be possible to install from minimal and have it download *updated* packages instead of the default-release ones? This way, installing FC7 4 months after its release would mean downloading only 100MB + 2GB instead of 4GB (DVD) plus 1GB (updates).
You can point at updates now; we don't list it by default because there are some non-fun interactions with media based installs.
Jeremy
O/H Jeremy Katz έγραψε:
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 16:01 +0000, Dimitrios Glezos wrote:
Also, I suggest to also ship a *Minimal* spin. For the users who have aDSL (which are probably most of our users), downloading the needed packages via Anaconda is probably quicker than downloading a whole DVD (besides, burning a CD is cheaper than a DVD). I usually download only one CD (which I write on a CDRW) to do the install, so it would be nice if that iso was 100 instead of 600MB. Besides, now that Anaconda has "Extras" support, more users would actually make use of this Minimal spin, since it doesn't reflect to "minimal installation" but more to "minimal download size".
How is this different from the rescue CD which we have today (and will continue to have)?
Glad to hear that we already have the infrastructure/plans for it, Jeremy.
I didn't know that the rescueCD was installable. This sounds like a marketing mistake of ours: if a contributor didn't know about it, imagine the rest of the world. So maybe it would be better to dub it "Fedora minimal/rescue spin" and start listing it as one of the media we ship.
Finally, would it be possible to install from minimal and have it download *updated* packages instead of the default-release ones? This way, installing FC7 4 months after its release would mean downloading only 100MB + 2GB instead of 4GB (DVD) plus 1GB (updates).
You can point at updates now; we don't list it by default because there are some non-fun interactions with media based installs.
Right. Just wanted to point out that it makes even more sense to download a minimal spin if months have passed since the release.
-d
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 21:36 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
O/H Jeremy Katz έγραψε:
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 16:01 +0000, Dimitrios Glezos wrote:
Also, I suggest to also ship a *Minimal* spin. For the users who have aDSL (which are probably most of our users), downloading the needed packages via Anaconda is probably quicker than downloading a whole DVD (besides, burning a CD is cheaper than a DVD). I usually download only one CD (which I write on a CDRW) to do the install, so it would be nice if that iso was 100 instead of 600MB. Besides, now that Anaconda has "Extras" support, more users would actually make use of this Minimal spin, since it doesn't reflect to "minimal installation" but more to "minimal download size".
How is this different from the rescue CD which we have today (and will continue to have)?
Glad to hear that we already have the infrastructure/plans for it, Jeremy.
I didn't know that the rescueCD was installable. This sounds like a marketing mistake of ours: if a contributor didn't know about it, imagine the rest of the world. So maybe it would be better to dub it "Fedora minimal/rescue spin" and start listing it as one of the media we ship.
Yeah, I was already thinking with the syslinux menu stuff that we should make it more obvious. I definitely agree that it's something that could/should be advertised better.
Jeremy
On Thursday 15 February 2007 14:45, Jeremy Katz wrote:
I didn't know that the rescueCD was installable. This sounds like a marketing mistake of ours: if a contributor didn't know about it, imagine the rest of the world. So maybe it would be better to dub it "Fedora minimal/rescue spin" and start listing it as one of the media we ship.
Yeah, I was already thinking with the syslinux menu stuff that we should make it more obvious. I definitely agree that it's something that could/should be advertised better.
We also now put the rescue.iso in the same iso/ dir as the rest, we could probably rename it. In the past, it was rescue as it would by default go to rescue mode, but with the new gui syslinux stuff that jeremy is talking about, we could not do that, but still make it painfully obvious how to rescue from it, and name it something more generic.
There is also boot.iso and boot.img which are even smaller and can do many of the same things, they just don't have stage2 on them.
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 16:01 +0000, Dimitrios Glezos wrote:
O/H Joachim Frieben έγραψε:
3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases: * Desktop environment * Developer use
Isn't the "workstation" class an already well established term and preferable to chose?
Since I've been asked a couple of times why we are planning on shipping a Desktop spin and not a Laptop spin (!), this argument might indeed have a base. It is more accurate (the "opposite" of Server is Workstation, not Dekstop) and more correctly translated to other languages.
Also, I suggest to also ship a *Minimal* spin. For the users who have aDSL (which are probably most of our users), downloading the needed packages via Anaconda is probably quicker than downloading a whole DVD (besides, burning a CD is cheaper than a DVD). I usually download only one CD (which I write on a CDRW) to do the install, so it would be nice if that iso was 100 instead of 600MB. Besides, now that Anaconda has "Extras" support, more users would actually make use of this Minimal spin, since it doesn't reflect to "minimal installation" but more to "minimal download size".
Finally, would it be possible to install from minimal and have it download *updated* packages instead of the default-release ones? This way, installing FC7 4 months after its release would mean downloading only 100MB + 2GB instead of 4GB (DVD) plus 1GB (updates).
My 2 cents.
-d
A. It can already be done with the rescue image. (linux askmethod) B. It only makes sense -if- Anaconda also supports -updates out of the box. There's no sense in download the package once (during the initial installation) just to download it again once you hit the first upgrade.
- Gilboa
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 04:40:02PM +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
* Desktop environment * Developer use
Isn't the "workstation" class an already well established term and preferable to chose?
I find it confusing. Many Unix workstation systems weren't/aren't developor machines at all.
"Bittorrent" is blocked in certain academic and probably also enterprise environments. It's very frustrating to sit behind a "firewall" and have the necessary bandwith but no images to download. Even if "Fedora" will
If you're in this situation, see my other post about net installs.
environments. It's very frustrating to sit behind a "firewall" and have the necessary bandwith but no images to download. Even if "Fedora" will
If you're in this situation, see my other post about net installs.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org http://mattdm.org/ Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/
Sure that's what I do most of the time [at work]. However, I also have a system at home which only has a modem connection. What do you recommend in that case?
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 06:12:51PM +0100, Joachim Frieben wrote:
Sure that's what I do most of the time [at work]. However, I also have a system at home which only has a modem connection. What do you recommend in that case?
Take your machine to work and install it there? :)
But seriously, sounds like the "having good tools to make your own spin" should do it.
On 2/15/07, Joachim Frieben jfrieben@gmx.de wrote:
Going for "Bittorrent" only for certain spins is a -very- bad idea. "Bittorrent" is blocked in certain academic and probably also enterprise environments.
I concur, this was actually a very real problem at my previous edu and gov addresses. I had enough pull with the it people and foresight to clear my usage of bittorrrent for the specific purpose of getting fedora, and got a specific ip address cleared to run a bt client, for a limited time period. But I'm sure everyone's pretty aware by now that i'm especially special, and it would be difficult to expect everyone to have such success poking holes in their academic/government/corporate firewalls for downloading fedora.
If you do a bittorrent only iso, which proves to be very popular.. you may want a way for people who can't get the iso via bt to register a note so you can track how common the problem is, in proportion to the number of bt downloads. You may want to have a backup plan in place specifically to address the needs of people with local policy rules which limit the use of bt clients.. if its clear its a big enough problem and not just a couple of people. I think its a bigger problem then anyone realizes..but of course metrics are nigh impossible to obtain.
-jef"Is there a potential here for some sort of bt to dynamic URL gateway?"spaleta
-----Original Message----- From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list- bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Katz Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:21 AM To: fedora-devel-list Subject: Fedora 7 media sets
Since test1 and FUDcon there's been a lot of feedback on what media sets we should actually build, test and distribute by default. It's pretty clear that the mix of "desktop bits without any development" didn't really fit the needs of a lot of our users. And the incredibly long thread about what belongs in a server spin showed that we don't really have a good handle on what use cases we're actually trying to fill with it.
Given this, the board stepped back to think a bit about what we're trying to achieve and what the problems we were trying to fix. The list was pretty short:
1. Must provide a way for people to do their own custom versions including packages from all of the Fedora universe. 2. Want to provide at least one installable "single CD Fedora" to help in parts of the world with less bandwidth 3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases: * Desktop environment * Developer use * Simple LAMP server
- Try to be as little of a burden on our mirror and testing infrastructure as possible.
Given the above, we'd like to look at doing a somewhat different set of bits for Fedora 7 than was previously in the plan. But, we're still open to feedback to change things somewhat. The on the table things are:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case. * Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure. * Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
Also, Rex is continuing to lead the efforts for the Fedora 7 KDE release and hopefully the Fedora 7 KDE LiveCD.
This feels like it'll get us to a place that's reasonable for Fedora 7 and to where we can then actually get experimentation done with "hey, how can I get a single CD" rather than putting Fedora 7 on the line for the experimentation.
Comments? Flames? ...
Jeremy
Sounds good to me.
I would like to see the minimal install option put back.
I would like to be able to get the box up and running with just enough to be able to add more later.
It would be nice to have a text interface to pirut so that it would be easy to add packages later. Or maybe something as simple as some kind of text interface that would allow you to check the different yum groups and install them. Kind of like the one used to pick ipv6 in the linux rescue.
Another option might be to be able to boot from the original media and have it detect that it was running the same version and just have the option to install more software or modify the system packages.
It just seems like such a waste of time to install everything and then turn around and have to update it with 200-300 MB of updates.
Jerry
Jerry Williams (jwilliam@xmission.com) said:
It just seems like such a waste of time to install everything and then turn around and have to update it with 200-300 MB of updates.
Updates can be added to the install repos for network based installs. There are anaconda/yum bugs that prevent it for media-based installs at the moment.
Bill
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20:39AM -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
The first step should be: "Do you really need this? In many cases you could just download the 8MB boot ISO and do a net install. But if you would benefit from making a disc set with a certain subset of packages for redistribution, here's how...."
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20:39 -0500, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
Comments? Flames? ...
I like the plan.
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20:39 -0500, Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
Comments? Flames? ...
I like the plan.
me 2
On Thursday 15 February 2007 10:20, Jeremy Katz wrote:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case.
I'm assuming that the Desktop SIG (does that exist?) will be on the hook for defining a manifest for this?
* Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only?
So, who owns/helps with the manifest here? We have a good start at "Desktop" from Test1, who's going to fill in the parts for the Development, and Server stuff? Hopefully we're not going to do globs like *-devel* are we?
* Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure.
This is easy enough, manifest "*"
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
I'll hopefully be working with the Docs team on this as we get near release (and pungi gets near 1.0 release)
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 13:35 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thursday 15 February 2007 10:20, Jeremy Katz wrote:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case.
I'm assuming that the Desktop SIG (does that exist?) will be on the hook for defining a manifest for this?
What happened to the manifest that we had for test1 ?
Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
I'm assuming that the Desktop SIG (does that exist?) will be on the hook for defining a manifest for this?
What happened to the manifest that we had for test1 ?
We have both the manifest for the desktop spin, and the manifest for the LiveCD. These probably need merged.
Bill
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 14:00 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
I'm assuming that the Desktop SIG (does that exist?) will be on the hook for defining a manifest for this?
What happened to the manifest that we had for test1 ?
We have both the manifest for the desktop spin, and the manifest for the LiveCD. These probably need merged.
Bill
Merged in what way ? Isn't the one a subset of the other ?
On Thursday 15 February 2007 14:04, Matthias Clasen wrote:
What happened to the manifest that we had for test1 ?
That's the installable spin manifest which equals 3~ CDs in size. Not suitable for a LiveCD. Jeremy reused the FC6 LiveCD manifest, and there are some things missing that need to be fixed.
--- Jeremy Katz katzj@redhat.com wrote:
Since test1 and FUDcon there's been a lot of feedback on what media sets we should actually build, test and distribute by default. It's pretty clear that the mix of "desktop bits without any development" didn't really fit the needs of a lot of our users. And the incredibly long thread about what belongs in a server spin showed that we don't really have a good handle on what use cases we're actually trying to fill with it.
Given this, the board stepped back to think a bit about what we're trying to achieve and what the problems we were trying to fix. The list was pretty short:
1. Must provide a way for people to do their own custom versions including packages from all of the Fedora universe.
Yes. And make it _really easy_.
2. Want to provide at least one installable "single CD Fedora"
to help in parts of the world with less bandwidth 3. Need to provide a way to install via media for the following cases:
* Desktop environment * Developer use * Simple LAMP server
- Try to be as little of a burden on our mirror and testing infrastructure as possible.
Given the above, we'd like to look at doing a somewhat different set of bits for Fedora 7 than was previously in the plan. But, we're still open to feedback to change things somewhat. The on the table things are:
* Fedora 7 Desktop LiveCD. It's installable and it's a single
CD, so it's a good step towards the single installable desktop CD case. * Fedora 7 DVD. With everything for desktop, development and "mainstream" server tasks. This ends up replacing what was previously Fedora Core. There's something of an open question as to whether we'd provide CD isos here or not. Or CD isos via bittorrent only? * Fedora 7 Everything. 2+ DVDs. More bits than you can shake a stick at. Not available on the mirrors; bittorrent only. Hopefully can share the first disc with the Fedora 7 DVD. This would be the most at-risk and the most likely to fall off due to time pressure.
How about some forward thinking- 1 hd-dvd/bluray iso. To anyone who complains about not having said hardware, tell them how easy it is to launch this live-iso in qemu, and then run the simple commandline/gui to generate any standard spin (or any arbitrary customization of any standard spin). Again, reiterating above ... make it _really easy to do this_.
Also, make it trivial to copy this iso to a usb harddisk, along with a simple way to boot from the iso on the harddisk (bootloader install on the harddisk and/or small floppy/cdrom bootstrap come to mind, but I'm just thinking out loud here)
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important
to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
In my best Mr. Burns voice... Exccccelllent :)
Also, Rex is continuing to lead the efforts for the Fedora 7 KDE release and hopefully the Fedora 7 KDE LiveCD.
This feels like it'll get us to a place that's reasonable for Fedora 7 and to where we can then actually get experimentation done with "hey, how can I get a single CD" rather than putting Fedora 7 on the line for the experimentation.
Comments? Flames? ...
Sounds like things are moving in a good direction to me.
-dmc/jdog
Jeremy
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On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 10:20 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
* Make your own Fedora 7 step-by-step guide. This is important to help ensure that people understand and can make their own custom spins.
We (Docs) want to help with this. In fact, I'll volunteer to help turn any raw content you can provide, or point out for me, into DocBook and prepare it for release with F7.