Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
Thanks and best regards, Erich ---- Erich Eickmeyer Fedora Jam
Hi , I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . Thanks , Harsh
On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 21:40 , erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
Thanks and best regards, Erich
Erich Eickmeyer Fedora Jam _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
Hi , I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . Thanks , Harsh
Hi Harsh,
I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve. I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or not to actually go through with it. If it does happen, the goal is to improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
Erich
Hi Erich , Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to . Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in general ) seems pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I can work smoothly with :) This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you can switch to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't install it ) and it basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps . I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test this extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this can help in some way ? Thanks , Harsh
On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
Hi , I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . Thanks , Harsh
Hi Harsh,
I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve. I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or not to actually go through with it. If it does happen, the goal is to improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
Erich _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Hi Erich,
so today I spent some time in the recording session with the following settings and configurations:
- The machine is 2x 12core Intel Xeon with an SSD drive and 32GB RAM - I know that this is a recording overkill and I am not sure how much the machine itself can influence the recording process. - Soundcard is Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 over USB - My system is an updated Fedora Workstation 32 with stock kernel (I only lifted up the ulimits) - The recording session was set to 48KHz, 32bit float audio - The session had about 15 tracks, out of which there were 5 sound+midi tracks and the rest were sound tracks
and I have made the following observations:
- the session could perform playback normally on 512 samples and 10ms latency - when I recorded on 512 samples and 10ms latency, I could work flawlessly for about 10 or 15 minutes and then, all of a sudden, Ardour spat a bunch of xruns. I started to delete the xrun markers one after another and Ardour crashed. - then I restarted it on 1024 samples and 21ms latency which was fine for the rest of the work -> did not have any more xruns.
So, I can confirm, that with the above settings I can use stock Fedora Workstation with Gnome desktop for my recording at 1024 samples with 21ms latency. I could not test higher freqencies, because I do not have any such a project ready, but when I experimented with 192KHz, I was fine with 2048 sampes and 42ms latency, which I remember very well (from that experience my settings of 2048 samples do originate from).
I hope you can use this info, if you needed something else, please let me know.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Harsh Jain harshjain075@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Erich , Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to . Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in general ) seems pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I can work smoothly with :) This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you can switch to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't install it ) and it basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps . I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test this extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this can help in some way ? Thanks , Harsh
On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
Hi , I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . Thanks , Harsh
Hi Harsh,
I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve. I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or not to actually go through with it. If it does happen, the goal is to improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
Erich _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Hello,
I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music. https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/
With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency without Xruns. I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix + tuxguitar). I also can record video "live".
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag
Best regards,
YC
Le 11/06/2020 à 11:14, Lukas Ruzicka a écrit :
Hi Erich,
so today I spent some time in the recording session with the following settings and configurations:
- The machine is 2x 12core Intel Xeon with an SSD drive and 32GB RAM
much the machine itself can influence the recording process.
- I know that this is a recording overkill and I am not sure how
- Soundcard is Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 over USB
- My system is an updated Fedora Workstation 32 with stock kernel (I only lifted up the ulimits)
- The recording session was set to 48KHz, 32bit float audio
- The session had about 15 tracks, out of which there were 5 sound+midi tracks and the rest were sound tracks
and I have made the following observations:
- the session could perform playback normally on 512 samples and 10ms latency
- when I recorded on 512 samples and 10ms latency, I could work flawlessly for about 10 or 15 minutes and then, all of a sudden, Ardour spat a bunch of xruns. I started to delete the xrun markers one after another and Ardour crashed.
- then I restarted it on 1024 samples and 21ms latency which was fine for the rest of the work -> did not have any more xruns.
So, I can confirm, that with the above settings I can use stock Fedora Workstation with Gnome desktop for my recording at 1024 samples with 21ms latency. I could not test higher freqencies, because I do not have any such a project ready, but when I experimented with 192KHz, I was fine with 2048 sampes and 42ms latency, which I remember very well (from that experience my settings of 2048 samples do originate from).
I hope you can use this info, if you needed something else, please let me know.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Harsh Jain <harshjain075@gmail.com mailto:harshjain075@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Erich , Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to . Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in general ) seems pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I can work smoothly with :) This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you can switch to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't install it ) and it basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps . I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test this extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this can help in some way ? Thanks , Harsh On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , <erich@ericheickmeyer.com <mailto:erich@ericheickmeyer.com>> wrote: On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote: > Hi , > I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize > resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less > intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource > usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really > hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . > Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . > Thanks , > Harsh > Hi Harsh, I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists (which Ubuntu Studio also covers. I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve. I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or not to actually go through with it. If it does happen, the goal is to improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'". I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :) Erich _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org--
Lukáš Růžička
FEDORA QE, RHCE
Red Hat
Purkyňova 115
612 45 Brno - Královo Pole
lruzicka@redhat.com mailto:lruzicka@redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. https://redhat.com/trusted
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Hi Yann,
On 6/11/20 10:50 AM, Yann COLLETTE wrote:
Hello,
I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music. https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/
With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency without Xruns. I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix + tuxguitar). I also can record video "live".
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag
Best regards,
YC
Sounds great, but you might think about making it a lowlatency kernel instead. Real-time kernels have a plethora of security implications when used on desktop systems. Real Time kernels are meant for embedded systems, and using one in your desktop system to reduce latency isn't worth the security risk. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel
Other than that, I wouldn't mind having you on the Fedora Jam team. :)
-Erich
Thanks for the Link.
I use the RT Kernel just for music. For standard desktop tasks, I switch to the official Fedora Kernel.
With the standard Fedora Kernel, I've got too many xruns, that's why I decided to test RT Kernel.
Le 11/06/2020 à 22:47, Erich Eickmeyer a écrit :
Hi Yann,
On 6/11/20 10:50 AM, Yann COLLETTE wrote:
Hello,
I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music. https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/
With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency without Xruns. I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix + tuxguitar). I also can record video "live".
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag
Best regards,
YC
Sounds great, but you might think about making it a lowlatency kernel instead. Real-time kernels have a plethora of security implications when used on desktop systems. Real Time kernels are meant for embedded systems, and using one in your desktop system to reduce latency isn't worth the security risk. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel
Other than that, I wouldn't mind having you on the Fedora Jam team. :)
-Erich
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative people can feel at home in.
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
As a Fedora KDE user, I hope I'm not lumped in that bucket. :)
While I am *deeply* disappointed at Red Hat for removing KDE from RHEL, that is mostly because people seem to think KDE is no good because Red Hat dropped it rather than it being due to lack of engineers to support it.
However, one thing I have been very disappointed about is the attitude of some folks who are not actively involved or contributing to Fedora KDE disparaging virtually everyone else and the work they do. In general, it's very much against our tenants, our expectation of being excellent to each other, and our philosophy as a community.
As a member of many major groups in Fedora, including the KDE SIG, I do not personally tolerate such disparagement. If there is a technical foundation for disagreement, then there's something to discuss, but personally attacking people is never okay. If I have the ability to do something about it, I will.
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
The mechanics of making such a change are fairly straightforward: change the fedora-jam KS to switch from the KDE base to the GNOME base in the fedora-kickstarts repository: https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts/blob/master/f/fedora-live-jam_kde.ks
You'll need to re-rationalize your customizations on top of that, but it's doable.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 18:46, Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative people can feel at home in.
Same here, as a musician and Fedora KDE user. :(
Hi Iñaki
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 18:52 +0200, Iñaki Ucar wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 18:46, Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative people can feel at home in.
Same here, as a musician and Fedora KDE user. :(
This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Thank you!
Nothing is set in stone, I just wanted to probe the community and see what people thought. :)
-Erich
Hi Neal,
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 12:44 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative people can feel at home in.
This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Thank you!
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
As a Fedora KDE user, I hope I'm not lumped in that bucket. :)
While I am *deeply* disappointed at Red Hat for removing KDE from RHEL, that is mostly because people seem to think KDE is no good because Red Hat dropped it rather than it being due to lack of engineers to support it.
However, one thing I have been very disappointed about is the attitude of some folks who are not actively involved or contributing to Fedora KDE disparaging virtually everyone else and the work they do. In general, it's very much against our tenants, our expectation of being excellent to each other, and our philosophy as a community.
As a member of many major groups in Fedora, including the KDE SIG, I do not personally tolerate such disparagement. If there is a technical foundation for disagreement, then there's something to discuss, but personally attacking people is never okay. If I have the ability to do something about it, I will.
Always good to read you. :)
You are definitely not in that bucket. I see your contributions as nothing but productive and constructive.
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
The mechanics of making such a change are fairly straightforward: change the fedora-jam KS to switch from the KDE base to the GNOME base in the fedora-kickstarts repository: https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts/blob/master/f/fedora-live-jam_kde.ks
You'll need to re-rationalize your customizations on top of that, but it's doable.
The kickstart is definitely what I would be working in, and the customizations in there are pretty minimal as you can see.
That said, this whole thing isn't set-in-stone, I just wanted to probe the community to see what people thought. :)
-Erich
Hi Erich,
I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!
I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.
Good idea and +1 from me.
Hi Kalev,
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:20 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
Hi Erich,
I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!
I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.
Good idea and +1 from me.
-- Kalev
Thanks. That's exactly what has spurred this conversation. I've been having conversations in off-list threads about pipewire. I'm highly interesed in doing work on this, and I think perhaps this would be the best way to collaborate and get feedback from the overall community of musicians and audion enthusiasts.
So, perhaps a conversation can be had to create a second kickstart for GNOME and keep the KDE kickstart?
But, that's the goal: to get users to give feature requests and issues to pipewire. I am not sure that can be adequately accomplished in KDE Plasma.
-Erich
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:29 PM erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi Kalev,
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:20 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
Hi Erich,
I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!
I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.
Good idea and +1 from me.
-- Kalev
Thanks. That's exactly what has spurred this conversation. I've been having conversations in off-list threads about pipewire. I'm highly interesed in doing work on this, and I think perhaps this would be the best way to collaborate and get feedback from the overall community of musicians and audion enthusiasts.
So, perhaps a conversation can be had to create a second kickstart for GNOME and keep the KDE kickstart?
But, that's the goal: to get users to give feature requests and issues to pipewire. I am not sure that can be adequately accomplished in KDE Plasma.
I'd be concerned about the viability of PipeWire if we don't have work going upstream in KDE to leverage it, though. The majority of creative software is Qt5/KF5 based, and not having PipeWire support first class in that ecosystem would be massively damaging to the quality of the offering. That's less about GNOME vs KDE and more about PipeWire still needing work to be broadly adopted.
offering. That's less about GNOME vs KDE and more about PipeWire still
needing work to be broadly adopted.
Well, does it mean that PipeWire is going to replace Jack? Because if not, then it is a non-issue for recording anyway.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Hi Lukas,
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:39 +0200, Lukas Ruzicka wrote:
Well, does it mean that PipeWire is going to replace Jack? Because if not, then it is a non-issue for recording anyway.
As I understand it, Pipewire is going to act as a drop-in replacement for Jack and Pulseaudio and be completely functionally equivalent to both, solving the problem with Linux audio that we've had for decades now.
--Erich
Hello,
I am using Fedora Workstation with the stock kernel and Gnome Desktop for my recording attempts with Ardour. I am using the Focusrite Scarlett USB sound card and I can get down to 40ms latency without getting any xruns (a couple of releases back, it was an xrun hell). I am aware that the 40ms are nothing really good, but since I only do some folkie stuff (upto 15 tracks) it is OK for me and I think that you can make music on Gnome Desktop.
However, I am totally aware that people like to use what they are used to.
Lukas
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Erich,
I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!
I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.
Good idea and +1 from me.
-- Kalev
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 6:10 PM erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
Thanks and best regards, Erich
Erich Eickmeyer Fedora Jam _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Hi Lukas,
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:36 +0200, Lukas Ruzicka wrote:
Hello,
I am using Fedora Workstation with the stock kernel and Gnome Desktop for my recording attempts with Ardour. I am using the Focusrite Scarlett USB sound card and I can get down to 40ms latency without getting any xruns (a couple of releases back, it was an xrun hell). I am aware that the 40ms are nothing really good, but since I only do some folkie stuff (upto 15 tracks) it is OK for me and I think that you can make music on Gnome Desktop.
However, I am totally aware that people like to use what they are used to.
Lukas
This is exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for. Thanks! I do know that under Plasma and Xfce I've seen < 2ms latency with the right hardware (PCI cards, primarily). I've been able to push my Behringer UMC404HD (a USB interface) under 10 before. I have yet to do any formal testing on GNOME, but I'm glad to read what you wrote. Thanks!
-Erich
This is exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for. Thanks! I do know that under Plasma and Xfce I've seen < 2ms latency with the right hardware (PCI cards, primarily). I've been able to push my Behringer UMC404HD (a USB interface) under 10 before. I have yet to do any formal testing on GNOME, but I'm glad to read what you wrote. Thanks!
Now, I am playing back a previously recorded project with 512 samples, which gives the latency of 10ms and Ardour is performing fine without any xruns. The project has 10 tracks and each track has about 3 plugins used. It is getting late here, but if you want, I can try to record something tomorrow and see which latency I can go to before getting xruns and give the feedback here.
I agree that you do not want even one xrun in your session.
PS: I might find out that latency is no more an issue as it was before. I guess I am using such benevolent settings just for sure.
-Erich _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 09:09:28AM -0700, erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
I'll be blunt here. I don't think this is a good _motivation_ for the change. If you want to improve Gnome, you can do switch your own desktop and do tests, and you can write patches, or you can review other's patches, or you can talk on gnome mailing lists to make the issue more prominent. But a spin for users should use whatever is best for the purpose of that spin, period. Users != guinea pigs.
The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
I'd prefer to talk about which DE is better (now, or in the foreseeable future). While too many complaints are indeed tiring, those human-related reasons don't seem like enough to switch the desktop either.
(I have no knowledge whether KDE or Gnome is better for music. If the pipewire stuff works out then the situation might be quite different than in the past... The switch might be well motivated by this and other reasons, I just think that the two listed above are not good.)
Zbyszek
erich@ericheickmeyer.com writes:
Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
Have you considered XFCE? For me, XFCE is a breath of fresh air. It's a traditional desktop environment, that always feels like a comfortable, well worn pair of shoes.
And to your comment about attitudes, I can only say that I had one opportunity to report a bug, it was received well and addressed.
On 10/06/20 09:09 -0700, erich@ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
Hi all,
I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts in the overall community.
The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal latency while avoiding Xruns.
Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves" ?
Hello everyone,
After lengthy consideration, I have decided *not* to move Fedora Jam to GNOME from Plasma for the time being. However, I'd appreciate a lot of testing with pipewire on both Workstation and Jam, as would the pipewire team.
Remember, the Jam packages can be installed regardless of desktop environment by running "sudo dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'". Also, available in the repos is Studio Controls which does all of the tweaking for Jack and real-time/lowlatency audio access automatically. This is the upstreamed version of "Ubuntu Studio Controls". The only tweak it does not make is adjusting swappiness to 10, which I have set as default in Jam.
Thanks for all of the feedback!
-Erich ---- Erich Eickmeyer Fedora Jam
-
Erich Eickmeyer -
erich＠ericheickmeyer.com
-
Harsh Jain -
Iñaki Ucar -
Jonathan Wakely -
Kalev Lember -
Lukas Ruzicka -
Neal Gompa -
Sam Varshavchik -
Yann Collette -
Yann COLLETTE
-
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek